Mary Hanafin's Position Now - Should She Resign?

hotmail.com

Hanafin must be deeply damaged by her refusal to publicly take sides. She said she would announce her intention at the FF parliamentary meeting - cynically, she didn't.

It's going to be incredlible for her to say that she has confidence in the Taoiseach in the coming days. If ever I've seen a minister desperate to hang onto office and all it's lucrative benefits, this has to be it.

Where can she go from here?

sligopark

Resign or Re-Sign?

SB-08

Not much point now tbh - she clearly isn't an honorable person and has show herself to be quite a spineless coward frankly. It is highly likely she will lose her seat in DL and on that basis she probably feels if she can get another 2 months being driven around in a Merc cutting ribbons and getting her huge salary - why resign?

Cowen should sack her really but then he would have to sack all of those Junior Ministers and him sacking people at a time the party wants to portray unity it would not be wise.

Biggins

hotmail.com wrote: »

Hanafin must be deeply damaged by her refusal to publicly take sides. She said she would announce her intention at the FF parliamentary meeting - cynically, she didn't.

It's going to be incredible for her to say that she has confidence in the Taoiseach in the coming days. If ever I've seen a minister desperate to hang onto office and all it's lucrative benefits, this has to be it.

Where can she go from here?

A lot of TD's ducked the cameras and news-hounds.
Just because she didn't say what way she was swaying, I seriously doubt will be cause to call for her to go by those left in FF.
She was only doing what many others did, given her more public position or net.

hotmail.com

Biggins wrote: »

A lot of TD's ducked the cameras and news-hounds.
Just because she didn't say what way she was swaying, I seriously doubt will be cause to call for her to go by those left in FF.
She was only doing what many others did, given her more public position or net.

AFAIK she was the only cabinet minister not to reveal her intentions. And yet she said on Monday night she would let her intentions be made public.

There's a difference between a backbench TD voting against the Taoiseach as opposed to a cabinet minister. Her position is surely untennable.

For me, it seems she just wants to hang onto the car for as long as she can.

Dannyboy83

Martin has come out of this really well, Hanafin badly and Lenihan terribly!

One thing shown tonight, more than any other, is how incredibly out of touch Fianna Fail have become, truely boggles the mind.

SB-08

SB-08 wrote: »

Not much point now tbh - she clearly isn't an honorable person and has show herself to be quite a spineless coward frankly. It is highly likely she will lose her seat in DL and on that basis she probably feels if she can get another 2 months being driven around in a Merc cutting ribbons and getting her huge salary - why resign?

Cowen should sack her really but then he would have to sack all of those Junior Ministers and him sacking people at a time the party wants to portray unity it would not be wise.

id still say she is a shoe-in in dun laoghaire rathdown, andrews will be gone though

jimmycrackcorm

I thought her position was very sensible. After all what is the point of having a meeting to discuss the vote if minds were all made up.

jimmycrackcorm

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

One thing shown tonight, more than any other, is how incredibly out of touch Fianna Fail have become, truely boggles the mind.

You could argue that about all the parties especially FG who get a lot of stick about enda's wooden personality.

JonathanAnon

Not an FFer, but very disappointed in Mary Hanafin for her lack of moral courage to declare... It's easy to choose what team you want to be with when you know who's gonna win... She was one of the few Cabinet Ministers that I respected for competency, but apparently she is an invertebrate, the same as the rest of those who didn't have the courage of their convictions tonight.

jimmycrackcorm

JonathanAnon wrote: »

Not an FFer, but very disappointed in Mary Hanafin for her lack of moral courage to declare... It's easy to choose what team you want to be with when you know who's gonna win... She was one of the few Cabinet Ministers that I respected for competency, but apparently she is an invertebrate, the same as the rest of those who didn't have the courage of their convictions tonight.

Her intention is to run for leader herself so there was hardly any point in backing Martin. Also I suspect that she has recognized that Cowan would win so a failed attempt now would damage her position. Martin has tried the Bruton plan and also failed so he is now weaker. Hanafin has held her cards close - I think she might be a secret online poker player.

Einhard

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

One thing shown tonight, more than any other, is how incredibly out of touch Fianna Fail have become, truely boggles the mind.

Not sure how reacting to public opinion on their leader, and their standing in the polls, shows a remoteness. I would have thought it illustrates the opposite really, at least on this issue.

TheGodBen

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Her intention is to run for leader herself so there was hardly any point in backing Martin. Also I suspect that she has recognized that Cowan would win so a failed attempt now would damage her position. Martin has tried the Bruton plan and also failed so he is now weaker. Hanafin has held her cards close - I think she might be a secret online poker player.

She's not a political mastermind, she completely screwed this situation up. She had clearly lost confidence in Cowen but rather than expressing that opinion and trying to do something about it she dithered, acted like she was scared of both Cowen and Martin and ended up coming across as timid and indecisive. What's more, she hid from the media until appearing on The Frontline when she promised to make her position public before the vote, but not only did she not do that, she didn't even reveal it at the PP meeting. She has completely ruined her chances of not only winning the leadership of FF, but she has just made it harder to keep her seat at the election.

FF are going to be hammered in the election, we all know this, and once the dust settles Michael Martin can at least claim that he tried to do something about it before the election and resigned somewhat honourably when he failed. He's now in the best position to take over after the election (but hopefully never become Taoiseach).

jimmycrackcorm

TheGodBen wrote: »

She's not a political mastermind, she completely screwed this situation up. She had clearly lost confidence in Cowen but rather than expressing that opinion and trying to do something about it she dithered, acted like she was scared of both Cowen and Martin and ended up coming across as timid and indecisive. What's more, she hid from the media until appearing on The Frontline when she promised to make her position public before the vote, but not only did she not do that, she didn't even reveal it at the PP meeting. She has completely ruined her chances of not only winning the leadership of FF, but she has just made it harder to keep her seat at the election.

FF are going to be hammered in the election, we all know this, and once the dust settles Michael Martin can at least claim that he tried to do something about it before the election and resigned somewhat honourably when he failed. He's now in the best position to take over after the election (but hopefully never become Taoiseach).

No one said she was a mastermind. I simply say she is playing her cards close to her chest.

It makes no odds to the future of FF about Michael Martin trying to do something before the election. It's a good few years too late for him to do something. To think also that he's challenging Cowan over a golf game and a phone call that has only been supported by speculation and innuendo.....

Martin is tainted now and Hanafins approach is simply mild in comparison.

Dirk Gently

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Martin has tried the Bruton plan and also failed so he is now weaker. .

I dont agree that he's weaker in the long run. He's fired the first shot in what will be an inevitable leadership contest should FF be sitting in opposition in a few months. If FF do as bad as expected then Cowen will resign / be pushed and Martin is in a really strong position to fight off any potential rivals to become the new party leader.

hallelujajordan

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Her intention is to run for leader herself so there was hardly any point in backing Martin. Also I suspect that she has recognized that Cowan would win so a failed attempt now would damage her position. Martin has tried the Bruton plan and also failed so he is now weaker. Hanafin has held her cards close - I think she might be a secret online poker player.

Martin is only weaker in a Cowen led Fianna-Fail. Once Cowen resigns post election (as is absolutely inevitable) Martin will be in a very strong position and will in my view walk into the leadership position.

I am very disappointed in both Hanafin and Lenihan. Both claim openly to have leadership ambitions. Both concede privately that they have concerns about Cowens leadership yet neither had the kahunas to stand alongside Martin and move to change the leader. Both have lost a level of credibility after this weeks events.

MalteseBarry

Obviously, what Mary Hanafin should do now in concentrate on trying to maintain her seat in the upcoming election. Whether she resigns or not from the cabinet seems irrelevant as it looks as if her seat is very vulnerable and she might be in the last weeks of being a TD.

Pherekydes

Neither Hanafin nor Lenihan wanted to openly support Martin, as that would have put paid to their own leadership ambitions, so they had no choice but to support Cowen. However, Lenihan has been exposed as a traitor to his own backbenchers and has therefore sealed his fate, in my opinion. Hanafin has also been exposed, in her case as a craven coward, and she too has sealed her fate.

Knowing FF, both have the possibility of becoming a future leader!

efb

Martin +
Lenny -
Hannafin -

Cowen (N/A)

Martin the only one that came out of this well. Lenny and SCDMary spineless and weak.

If only Cowen showed as much fight to the IMF...

mowhawk

hotmail.com wrote: »

Hanafin must be deeply damaged by her refusal to publicly take sides. She said she would announce her intention at the FF parliamentary meeting - cynically, she didn't.

Does this actually surprise anyone?

vinpaul

Surely at this stage we the public should be given some idea on what confidence the parliamentary party has in Cowen. To say it is a majority gives us no idea on how much confidence there is in him.
As for Hanafin saying on Frontline that she would indicate before the vote what way she would vote, I think it is pathetic to have to listen and accept these ridiculous offerings when we all know that the game is up.
It is not now a question of how many FF tds will be returned but on how few.
After this charade I have lost all faith in the so called leaders of our country and hope that as many as possible lose their seats and give someone else a chance to restore some confidence to us all.

hallelujajordan

vinpaul wrote: »

Surely at this stage we the public should be given some idea on what confidence the parliamentary party has in Cowen. To say it is a majority gives us no idea on how much confidence there is in him.
As for Hanafin saying on Frontline that she would indicate before the vote what way she would vote, I think it is pathetic to have to listen and accept these ridiculous offerings when we all know that the game is up.
It is not now a question of how many FF tds will be returned but on how few.
After this charade I have lost all faith in the so called leaders of our country and hope that as many as possible lose their seats and give someone else a chance to restore some confidence to us all.

Not sure I agree . . they are entitled to have a secret ballot to determine these things and after all, this is an internal party matter . . It is also the same mechanism that the "someone else" you refer to employed during their leadership vote last year. .

efb wrote: »

Martin +
Lenny -
Hannafin -

Cowen (N/A)

Martin the only one that came out of this well. Lenny and SCDMary spineless and weak.

If only Cowen showed as much fight to the IMF...

How do you know he didn't . . . you are working on the assumption that Cowen rolled over when the IMF came in. I am not sure this is true. Time will tell when Fine Gael attempt to negotiate the 'better deal' they say they can achieve.

Pherekydes wrote: »

Neither Hanafin nor Lenihan wanted to openly support Martin, as that would have put paid to their own leadership ambitions, so they had no choice but to support Cowen.

I don't agree with this . . This vote was not a choice between Cowen and Martin. It only turned into that because of the failure of Lenihan and Hanafin to stand up and be counted. If either or both had stood on the podium beside Martin on Sunday night we might well be looking at a straight forward leadership contest right now.

gandalf

I have never seen Hanafin as leadership material at all and her behaviour during this so-called leadership push has just confirmed this. It is known that she was critical of Cowen, therefore she should have nailed her colours to the mast clearly and stated her intentions publicly. She said she would and then went back on her word. This is not the behaviour of a leader it is the behaviour of a coward. I do hope that she loses her seat in Dun Laoghaire because we need to cleansed of weak willed people like this in our National Parliament.

As a side note how depressing is it for the ordinary grassroot members of Fianna Fail to see the absolute dearth of leadership talent at the top of their organisation. They are like a pack of Lemmings running happily towards the cliffs at this stage.

godtabh

hallelujajordan wrote: »

Martin is only weaker in a Cowen led Fianna-Fail. Once Cowen resigns post election (as is absolutely inevitable) Martin will be in a very strong position and will in my view walk into the leadership position.

Unless there is a stronger push I dont see this happening. He is so bull headed that he'll never resign.

Uriel.

hallelujajordan wrote: »

Not sure I agree . . they are entitled to have a secret ballot to determine these things and after all, this is an internal party matter . . It is also the same mechanism that the "someone else" you refer to employed during their leadership vote last year. .

I don't agree with this opinion.
Firstly, I don't believe yesterday's events are similar to the Fine Gael Leadership problem last year. For one reason... at the time Fine Gael were not running the Government and making long-term decisions on the future of the country.

Secondly, this Government, that is, those who have the power to direct policy in this country, for this country's people, are making vital decisions that will have long-term implications for Ireland. If half of the Government (i.e. the Fianna Fail Ministers) do not have faith in the ability of their (and our) leader to make the important decisions, then they need to inform the public and resign their positions. The backbenchers can keep things a secret if they want but when Government members do not believe that the head of Government can make the correct decisions, then it's time inform the people. I think when it comes to Government members, it becomes way more than an internal party matter.

heybaby

JonathanAnon wrote: »

Not an FFer, but very disappointed in Mary Hanafin for her lack of moral courage to declare... It's easy to choose what team you want to be with when you know who's gonna win... She was one of the few Cabinet Ministers that I respected for competency, but apparently she is an invertebrate, the same as the rest of those who didn't have the courage of their convictions tonight.

Could not agree more with this, particularly comparing Mary Hanafin with being spineless. Lets face it the Fianna fail party is populated by the full range of spineless morally vacant individuals. Did people really expect Cowen, Coughlan, Hanafin, Lenihen and Martin to discover their moral compass let alone demonstrate a heretofore lacking courage ? This motley crew are and always have been parasites , their objective has never been the betterment of Irish society but the feathering of their own and their cosy vested partners interests. The greatest crime in all of this has been perpetrated not by Hanafin and her cohorts but by the docile Irish electorate who repeatedly voted for and thus encouraged the aforementioned cowardly behaviour by our cabinet ministers. Whether Hanafin resigns or not is completely irrelevant at this late stage because what Fianna Fail does is now a mere sideshow in the greater scheme of things.

Dirk Gently

gandalf wrote: »

As a side note how depressing is it for the ordinary grassroot members of Fianna Fail to see the absolute dearth of leadership talent at the top of their organisation. They are like a pack of Lemmings running happily towards the cliffs at this stage.

Great to see though isn't it. :pac:

hallelujajordan

godtabh wrote: »

Unless there is a stronger push I dont see this happening. He is so bull headed that he'll never resign.

I think there will be a significantly stronger push once Fianna Fail recover from the inevitable trauma that awaits them in the next election.

Uriel. wrote: »

I don't agree with this opinion.
Firstly, I don't believe yesterday's events are similar to the Fine Gael Leadership problem last year. For one reason... at the time Fine Gael were not running the Government and making long-term decisions on the future of the country.

Secondly, this Government, that is, those who have the power to direct policy in this country, for this country's people, are making vital decisions that will have long-term implications for Ireland. If half of the Government (i.e. the Fianna Fail Ministers) do not have faith in the ability of their (and our) leader to make the important decisions, then they need to inform the public and resign their positions. The backbenchers can keep things a secret if they want but when Government members do not believe that the head of Government can make the correct decisions, then it's time inform the people. I think when it comes to Government members, it becomes way more than an internal party matter.

In fairness yesterdays vote was in the leadership of Fianna Fail not in the Taoiseach. . . and Fianna Fail are entitled to handle internal party matters internally . . there will be another vote next week on the confidence of the house in the current government.

Also, there is no indication that half the government did not support Cowen. Other than Hanafin, I think all the cabinet ministers made their positions public and I think they all supported Cowen. The non-FF cabinet ministers will get their chance to express that confidence (or not) next week

gandalf

In fairness the leadership of Fianna Fail the larger of the two coalition parties at this moment of time is a vote for the Taoiseach so it is of interest to every citizen of this country. Unless of course you are saying we should have had the farcical situation where there is a new leader of Fianna Fail and a tainted Taoiseach who has been discarded by the party?

gandalf

LOL it gets better apparently she did vote against him and offered her resignation but he refused it! He should have fired her! This farce is far from over. Its like Cowen & Co have decided to restock the oppositions armoury with ammunition before the General Election is called.

hallelujajordan

A vote for the leadership of Fianna Fail is exactly that . . it is not a vote for Taoiseach ..

There is clearly a cascade effect and I would have expected that had Cowen lost last nights vote he would have resigned as Taoiseach and a general election would have followed. But none of that takes away from Fianna Fails right as an independent party to determine its own leadership using its own mechanisms.

There are other mechanisms available to trigger a motion of confidence in the Taoiseach.

gandalf

Apologies wrong info there she didn't offer to resign. She did vote against him with his knowledge so he should have fired her.

Again I disagree with you hallelujajordan given he is the Taoiseach it was and is of interest to all citizens of this country and we should be allowed to express our opinions on it without the old its an internal party issues especially when it is distracting the Government from more pressing issues.

hallelujajordan

gandalf wrote: »

Apologies wrong info there she didn't offer to resign. She did vote against him with his knowledge so he should have fired her.

Again I disagree with you hallelujajordan given he is the Taoiseach it was and is of interest to all citizens of this country and we should be allowed to express our opinions on it without the old its an internal party issues especially when it is distracting the Government from more pressing issues.

Your right to express an opinion is unquestioned . . Equally unquestionable is Fianna Fails right to determine its own leadership using its own mechanisms.

ISAW

gandalf wrote: »

In fairness the leadership of Fianna Fail the larger of the two coalition parties at this moment of time is a vote for the Taoiseach so it is of interest to every citizen of this country. Unless of course you are saying we should have had the farcical situation where there is a new leader of Fianna Fail and a tainted Taoiseach who has been discarded by the party?

I think this is the point Mary O Rourke made. How could FF have a party leader and the Dail have a different FF Taoiseach? So it is in their interests to maintain the current leader and all vote for confidence in him in the Dail.

I'd agree with you on "he should fire those who dint commit to him or who dithered"

i'd add thoughthat it reall doesn't make a difference what people posting here think. Ivan Yeates made the point this morning that what matters for FF TD's is the long view and who will be in the incoming parliamentary party. Whoever runs then will want their majority support. Some appeal to all of FF. some adopt the Sarah Palin strategy of looking after their own people and not being concerned about anyone else. However if you have twenty advisers on 100k a year they might be very loyal. what happens to all these minders when the money isn't there to pay them?

gandalf

hallelujajordan wrote: »

Your right to express an opinion is unquestioned . . Equally unquestionable is Fianna Fails right to determine its own leadership using its own mechanisms.

Well I would question that

Seriously this is effecting the whole country at a time of national crisis. At this stage it would be better to clear the decks and call a General Election.

One senior minister is gone honourably and left a major gap in one of the main Government Departments. He is the only one to have done the right thing in this whole mess.

Another senior minister has voted against the leader of FF and therefore the Taoiseach hasn't offered her resignation so by proxy is shown up as a hypocrite and has seriously damaged her reputation with the public.

Another Senior Minister has played Machiavellian tricks on his party colleagues and damaged his reputation with them seriously.

And finally you have a Taoiseach who appears happy to leave a Minister in a senior position in his cabinet who has said she has no confidence in his leadership. This Taoiseach who we are told is extremely busy can also take on the portfolio of a main Government Department like Foreign Affairs as well?

This is dysfunctional Government at its worst. How they can even contemplate continuing is beyond me.

hallelujajordan

gandalf wrote: »

Well I would question that

Seriously this is effecting the whole country at a time of national crisis. At this stage it would be better to clear the decks and call a General Election.

One senior minister is gone honourably and left a major gap in one of the main Government Departments. He is the only one to have done the right thing in this whole mess.

Another senior minister has voted against the leader of FF and therefore the Taoiseach hasn't offered her resignation so by proxy is shown up as a hypocrite and has seriously damaged her reputation with the public.

Another Senior Minister has played Machiavellian tricks on his party colleagues and damaged his reputation with them seriously.

And finally you have a Taoiseach who appears happy to leave a Minister in a senior position in his cabinet who has said she has no confidence in his leadership. This Taoiseach who we are told is extremely busy can also take on the portfolio of a main Government Department like Foreign Affairs as well?

This is dysfunctional Government at its worst. How they can even contemplate continuing is beyond me.

I don't disagree with a lot of what you have said here. . . I would have liked to have seen Cowen loosing the confidence vote and going to the park and I lobbied my local Fianna Fail TDs on Monday to encourage them to vote against Cowen.

Nonetheless, Fianna Fail have every right to manage their own affairs and assuming he has their confidence Brian Cowen has every right to manage his cabinet.

ISAW

gandalf wrote: »

Again I disagree with you hallelujajordan given he is the Taoiseach it was and is of interest to all citizens of this country and we should be allowed to express our opinions on it without the old its an internal party issues especially when it is distracting the Government from more pressing issues.

See this is the problem. A leadership selection is the business of the party concerned. Now it goes wider than the parliamentary party because the party president is ratified at their conference. Now how can you have a party leader and a different Taoiseach? What happens if they differ ? It is like having two Popes and they will differ if one has just ousted the other on the basis of them not doing something. the other problem is it only makes Irish government look unstable which gives TDs and members extra-party considerations. In a sense FF are in a bind because they are scolded for thinking only for themselves and not about the country and then when they want to avoid a leadership battle for the sake of the country they are also scolded.

gandalf

hallelujajordan wrote: »

I don't disagree with a lot of what you have said here. . . I would have liked to have seen Cowen loosing the confidence vote and going to the park and I lobbied my local Fianna Fail TDs on Monday to encourage them to vote against Cowen.

Fair enough and fair play for doing that. Unfortunately I believe that the TD's in FF have not expressed the view of the majority of grass roots supporters like yourself.

Nonetheless, Fianna Fail have every right to manage their own affairs and assuming he has their confidence Brian Cowen has every right to manage his cabinet.

I think we are not going to agree on this. In a time of national crisis when we have a Government who have lost the support of the vast majority of the people the leadership of the FF party and therefore the country is of supreme interest to all citizens of the country. Those citizens expect that the best be done for the country which imho is clearly not the case here.

hallelujajordan

gandalf wrote: »

Fair enough and fair play for doing that. Unfortunately I believe that the TD's in FF have not expressed the view of the majority of grass roots supporters like yourself.

Agreed, and in this case both my local TD's voted in support of Cowen:(

ISAW

gandalf wrote: »

Well I would question that

Seriously this is effecting the whole country at a time of national crisis. At this stage it would be better to clear the decks and call a General Election.

Which they agreed to do. The problem is that the "national crises" you mentioned necessitates getting the budget passed and the loan deal secured.

One senior minister is gone honourably and left a major gap in one of the main Government Departments.

All gaps are just "gaps" calling it "major" is redundant. Cowan can fill that in a day if he wants. As Ivan Yeates commented on radio this morning- Wouldn't it be Ironic if he appointed Andrews and then sacked his constituency "colleague" Hanafin?

He is the only one to have done the right thing in this whole mess.

Morally or politically? It would seem the commentators here regard it as to Martin's political advantage. So why be surprised?

Another senior minister has voted against the leader of FF and therefore the Taoiseach hasn't offered her resignation so by proxy is shown up as a hypocrite and has seriously damaged her reputation with the public.

Well that is for the people of Dun Laoghaire to decide. Not for you and or Cowan.
Cowan could of course affect this as noted above.

Another Senior Minister has played Machiavellian tricks on his party colleagues and damaged his reputation with them seriously.

You know them and they told you this or you are just guessing?

And finally you have a Taoiseach who appears happy to leave a Minister in a senior position in his cabinet who has said she has no confidence in his leadership.

No! When he offered the Ministry ( which was effectively a demotion) he was not aware she had no confidence in him. He may well sack her now. Wait and see.

This Taoiseach who we are told is extremely busy can also take on the portfolio of a main Government Department like Foreign Affairs as well?

He might appoint someone to that as well. He might even appoint her. who knows?

This is dysfunctional Government at its worst. How they can even contemplate continuing is beyond me.

It seems more like redundant phrases and guesswork on your part to me. But you are right this government is coming to an end.

ISAW

gandalf wrote: »

Fair enough and fair play for doing that. Unfortunately I believe that the TD's in FF have not expressed the view of the majority of grass roots supporters like yourself.

Maybe that is the problem FF have that the parliamentary party and others got divorced from the grass roots due to elevating the opinions of civil servants, party managers, paid advisers. PR people etc. above the respect for grass roots. Ironically Caown if anything was a return to grass roots. Onme could argue "Empire Buildere" within the party shafted him.

I think we are not going to agree on this. In a time of national crisis when we have a Government who have lost the support of the vast majority of the people the leadership of the FF party and therefore the country is of supreme interest to all citizens of the country.

Who FF FG etc. elect as their leadser is their own business. the only think you can do is vote for that party or not. Given you don't vote for FF why do you think they should be concerned about your views since they will only regard you as a mud slinger?


Furthermore government is not about doing what the majority of people want. It is about using your judgement. If the government lost the confidence of the majority of TD's then it will fall. We will see if that happens next week. Meanwhile try reading Ed Burke's speech on election to parliament.See 4.1.23-25
http://www.econlib.org/library/LFBooks/Burke/brkSWv4c1.html
[/quote]
Those citizens expect that the best be done for the country which imho is clearly not the case here.[/QUOTE]

Maybe true but the difference is you don't represent those people the TD's do!

juuge

Unlike Mary Coughlan Hanafin has no balls!

JP Liz V1

http://www.independent.ie/breaking-news/national-news/hanafin-to-keep-job-despite-vote-2502591.html

Tourism Minister Mary Hanafin confirmed she voted to remove Taoiseach Brian Cowen as Fianna Fail leader, but will not resign.
Even though she has put herself firmly in the rebel camp, Ms Hanafin insisted she had not been part of a plot to oust Mr Cowen.
Ms Hanafin, who wants to run for the leadership, said she did not want to influence colleagues by declaring her hand before Tuesday night's secret ballot.
"I did vote against the motion and the Taoiseach knew exactly what I was doing," she said.
"I chose to do it this way. I was not part of the campaign that was going on. It was a motion of confidence, it wasn't a leadership contest. It wasn't about coming out in favour of one person or the other. If it had been then I might have been active in actually canvassing for a person, but it wasn't."
Less than 24 hours after voting against him, Ms Hanafin went on to say she had confidence in Mr Cowen.
"I've confidence in the Taoiseach and I spoke to the Taoiseach last night," the minister said. "I didn't offer my resignation nor did he ask for it, we both indicated we were very happy that I continue doing the job in Government that I do."
Ms Hanafin is the only Cabinet minister, other than resigned Foreign Affairs Minister Micheal Martin, to publicly declare she went against the Taoiseach. Mr Cowen has said he is not seeking any more resignations.
Ms Hanafin said the motion was not about confidence in the Taoiseach, but in Mr Cowen as leader of Fianna Fail into the general election.
She said. "The Taoiseach is the person who is leading this Government and leading this country and I've full confidence in that and I've full confidence in that as a member of this Cabinet. What we were talking about was heading into the next election, as presenting a fresh team and a fresh face."

southsiderosie

hallelujajordan wrote: »

Nonetheless, Fianna Fail have every right to manage their own affairs and assuming he has their confidence Brian Cowen has every right to manage his cabinet.

Having the right and having a sense of the greater context of the situation are two different issues.

I am currently in Hong Kong, and there were live reports here on the party internal vote. The no-confidence vote wasn't just some messy internal mater: the world - and particularly the financial community - is watching because nobody with any sense thinks that the banking crisis is over.

Flimbos

JP Liz V1 wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/breaking-news/national-news/hanafin-to-keep-job-despite-vote-2502591.html

Tourism Minister Mary Hanafin confirmed she voted to remove Taoiseach Brian Cowen as Fianna Fail leader, but will not resign.
Even though she has put herself firmly in the rebel camp, Ms Hanafin insisted she had not been part of a plot to oust Mr Cowen.
Ms Hanafin, who wants to run for the leadership, said she did not want to influence colleagues by declaring her hand before Tuesday night's secret ballot.
"I did vote against the motion and the Taoiseach knew exactly what I was doing," she said.
"I chose to do it this way. I was not part of the campaign that was going on. It was a motion of confidence, it wasn't a leadership contest. It wasn't about coming out in favour of one person or the other. If it had been then I might have been active in actually canvassing for a person, but it wasn't."
Less than 24 hours after voting against him, Ms Hanafin went on to say she had confidence in Mr Cowen.
"I've confidence in the Taoiseach and I spoke to the Taoiseach last night," the minister said. "I didn't offer my resignation nor did he ask for it, we both indicated we were very happy that I continue doing the job in Government that I do."
Ms Hanafin is the only Cabinet minister, other than resigned Foreign Affairs Minister Micheal Martin, to publicly declare she went against the Taoiseach. Mr Cowen has said he is not seeking any more resignations.
Ms Hanafin said the motion was not about confidence in the Taoiseach, but in Mr Cowen as leader of Fianna Fail into the general election.
She said. "The Taoiseach is the person who is leading this Government and leading this country and I've full confidence in that and I've full confidence in that as a member of this Cabinet. What we were talking about was heading into the next election, as presenting a fresh team and a fresh face."

This is crazy - so Hanafin thinks Cowen is good enough to run the country but not good enough to run his party? Unbelievable.

jpfahy

Flimbos wrote: »

This is crazy - so Hanafin thinks Cowen is good enough to run the country but not good enough to run his party? Unbelievable.

She is a complete fence sitting, straight answer avoiding, idiot. I look forward to the election when (I'm in her constituency) I can vote her out

ISAW

jpfahy wrote: »

She is a complete fence sitting, straight answer avoiding, idiot. I look forward to the election when (I'm in her constituency) I can vote her out

Which will make no difference if you never would vote for her anyway. If you did vote for her last time or convinced others to do so then it would make a difference. so why should she care about what you think?

TheGodBen

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

No one said she was a mastermind. I simply say she is playing her cards close to her chest.

It makes no odds to the future of FF about Michael Martin trying to do something before the election. It's a good few years too late for him to do something.

In reality, this is true, but Fianna Fáil TDs clearly aren't living in the real world and they refuse to accept that their party's actions are to blame for the mess this country is in, instead choosing to believe that they're unpopular for making the right decisions. From that perspective, Martin didn't do anything wrong, he just tried to get rid of an unpopular leader that had a "communication problem".

We can't say for certain how the leadership of FF will go after the election because we don't know how badly they're going to be hit, or even if the three main candidates will be re-elected as TDs. Lenihan may have pissed off the backbenchers, but will enough of the pissed off backbenchers survive the election? Did Lenihan do a deal with Cowen over the last few days to get his endorsement after the election? And if so, would that help Lenihan or hurt him?

It's between Martin and Lenihan now, Hanifan's inaction and double-speak over the last few days has killed what little chance she had.

SB-08

Who is advising this women? I was always under the impression that although she was a FFer she always came across as being one of the few intelligent members of the party but she has made an absolute fool of herself with this. Cowen good enough to lead the country but not good enough to lead FF? It defies belief frankly.

Lenny has been damaged too - although he did appear to think the leadership of FF was actually beneath him and that he was leading the country and FF and was grateful to Cowen for supporting HIS plans.

Btw - anyone else having problems getting into threads on Politics.ie? Evertime I try I keep getting the '503 service Unavailable' error from the server. It has been like this since this morning.:mad:

sceptre

ISAW wrote: »

See this is the problem. A leadership selection is the business of the party concerned. Now it goes wider than the parliamentary party because the party president is ratified at their conference. Now how can you have a party leader and a different Taoiseach?

Quite easily. While in practice it's typically been the case that the leader of the main government party has been the Taoiseach, it's not compulsory, nor has it always been the case - throughout John A Costello's two terms as Taoiseach (1948-1951 and 1954-1957), the leader of Fine Gael was Richard Mulcahy.

manta356

ArtSmart wrote: »

well if it's the missionary position - yup.

but if it's doggy....

With Fianna Fail it's more likely to be Dodgy.:eek:;)