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Absent Fathers

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    #422
    metrovelvet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭metrovelvet


    ^ I would say more often than not it is about responsibility and often the break down of the relationship is a result of that in the first place.


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    #423
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    metrovelvet wrote: »
    ^ I would say more often than not it is about responsibility and often the break down of the relationship is a result of that in the first place.
    Perhaps in some cases, but I don't think it's fair to generalize about relationships and why they fail.


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    #424
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    metrovelvet wrote: »
    You know the many reasons women might deny access?

    Usually its just one. Because they can.


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    #425
    metrovelvet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭metrovelvet


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    Perhaps in some cases, but I don't think it's fair to generalize about relationships and why they fail.

    But in the case of absentee fathers it often is the case- as in they don't want the responsibility or they cant cope with it, and that is BEFORE all any of what you mentioned can happen. The majority leave the relationship during the pregnancy [recent stat on BBC horizons or panorama or whatever its called].


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    #426
    metrovelvet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭metrovelvet


    CDfm wrote: »
    Usually its just one. Because they can.

    Ah right. The same reason men walk. Ok then. Glad that's settled.


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    #427
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    metrovelvet wrote: »
    Ah right. The same reason men walk. Ok then. Glad that's settled.

    It is a different issue - some dad's are absent by choice & others have absence forced up them.


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    #428
    metrovelvet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭metrovelvet


    CDfm wrote: »
    It is a different issue - some dad's are absent by choice & others have absence forced up them.

    We are talking about the ones who are absent by choice -in case you havent been following.


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    #429
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    metrovelvet wrote: »
    But in the case of absentee fathers it often is the case- as in they don't want the responsibility or they cant cope with it, and that is BEFORE all any of what you mentioned can happen. The majority leave the relationship during the pregnancy [recent stat on BBC horizons or panorama or whatever its called].
    Are we talking about leaving the child or leaving the relationship? The two are not the same.


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    #430
    metrovelvet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭metrovelvet


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    Are we talking about leaving the child or leaving the relationship? The two are not the same.

    Both. They leave the child and the relationship during the pregnancy because of the pregnancy and impending fatherhood.

    You cant really seperate them. Its not like you can be in a relationship with a pregnant woman and pretend she isnt pregnant.:rolleyes:


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    #431
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    metrovelvet wrote: »
    Both. They leave the child and the relationship during the pregnancy because of the pregnancy and impending fatherhood.
    Depends on the situation. Depends on how pregnancy strains the relationship - this can destroy many relationships.

    Depends if the relationship was strong to begin with - what if they were going to break up anyway? When's the best time (naturally before pregnancy, but that option's closed)? A day after birth? A month later? The child's first birthday? Many relationships around pregnancy are contrived too - there's a lot of pressure on men to 'stand by' the mother and even attempt a relationship, even if they don't want to.

    And also it can be simply because the man does not want to be a father, for whatever reason (responsibility is one, but many have other reasons).
    You cant really seperate them. Its not like you can be in a relationship with a pregnant woman and pretend she isnt pregnant.:rolleyes:
    No, but you can want a relationship with the child and not the woman, and I suspect the inability to separate in some minds the two can cause a lot of problems.


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    #432
    metrovelvet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭metrovelvet


    Because you cant separate them, biologically or practically. It is total fusion.

    Everything that happens to the mother affect the child to be. A stressful pregnancy will lead to one type of behavior in a baby that carries through to toddlerhood and a happy calm one will lead to another type of behavior in a baby.

    Practically speaking, everything about the baby is communicated through the mother as she is carrying the baby and the one under medical scrutiny.

    Whatever the reason, most dads who are absent do their walking before the baby is even born, before courts, before access orders, before money, either because they dont want to be fathers, they dont like the mother, or they cant cope.


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    #433
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    metrovelvet wrote: »
    Both. They leave the child and the relationship during the pregnancy because of the pregnancy and impending fatherhood.

    You cant really seperate them. Its not like you can be in a relationship with a pregnant woman and pretend she isnt pregnant.:rolleyes:

    I dont really understand your point -pregnancy changes people and rejection can make people nasty.

    Lots of relationships break down during pregnancy - maybe they would have done so in the face of any stressfull situation -but pregnancy is a biggie.An unwanted pregnancy by one or both parents can make things worse and highlight parts of a person that are not attractive.

    Mother and baby are mutually exclusive.

    I used to come accross the phrase parentectomy before.

    http://www.fact.on.ca/Info/pas/willia90.htm

    A hostile Mum can keep a child hostage and thats it and things can get really nasty.

    Even in criminal law , in cases of infantacide or maternal fillicide mothers can be treated differently and I believe there can be medical reasons for it.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2174580/

    I am not saying that all pregnant women or mothers of young babies are nutters. But mother and baby are not the same person.


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    #434
    metrovelvet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭metrovelvet


    My point about most absentee dads do their running during pregnancy to dispute many of the reasons TC cited for absentee fathers as his reasons cited happen AFTER a baby is born but the abandonment in most cases is done waay before then, that's all.

    A pregnant woman and the baby are not the same person but the relationship is one of fusion, that is why pregnant woman are told not to smoke and drink because everything that is pumping through them is pumping through the baby, and that includes adrenaline and cortisol.


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    #435
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    metrovelvet wrote: »
    My point about most absentee dads do their running during pregnancy to dispute many of the reasons TC cited for absentee fathers as his reasons cited happen AFTER a baby is born but the abandonment in most cases is done waay before then, that's all.
    You'll have to show us what that stat was exactly, because originally you said that they "leave the relationship during the pregnancy", that's not the same thing as choosing to have nothing to do with the child.
    A pregnant woman and the baby are not the same person but the relationship is one of fusion, that is why pregnant woman are told not to smoke and drink because everything that is pumping through them is pumping through the baby, and that includes adrenaline and cortisol.
    So are you suggesting that if a man wants to have a relationship with his child he has to take them together as a package deal? New spin on shotgun weddings, if so.


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    #436
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    metrovelvet wrote: »
    My point about most absentee dads do their running during pregnancy to dispute many of the reasons TC cited for absentee fathers as his reasons cited happen AFTER a baby is born but the abandonment in most cases is done waay before then, that's all.

    A pregnant woman and the baby are not the same person but the relationship is one of fusion, that is why pregnant woman are told not to smoke and drink because everything that is pumping through them is pumping through the baby, and that includes adrenaline and cortisol.

    Also why men often get told "it just isn't the same for men". We don't "bond" as quickly.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #437
    metrovelvet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭metrovelvet


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    You'll have to show us what that stat was exactly, because originally you said that they "leave the relationship during the pregnancy", that's not the same thing as choosing to have nothing to do with the child.

    So are you suggesting that if a man wants to have a relationship with his child he has to take them together as a package deal? New spin on shotgun weddings, if so.
    The Corinthian wrote: »
    You'll have to show us what that stat was exactly, because originally you said that they "leave the relationship during the pregnancy", that's not the same thing as choosing to have nothing to do with the child.

    I was talking about absentee fathers. There is an implicit understanding by the term ABSENTEE FATHER that these men left their children.
    The Corinthian wrote: »
    So are you suggesting that if a man wants to have a relationship with his child he has to take them together as a package deal? New spin on shotgun weddings, if so.

    Im not suggesting anything. It just looks like it tends to work out that way. I guess he could absent himself out of her life during the pregnancy, [risk the child's health http://www.parentdish.com/2010/06/24/fathers-involvement-during-pregnancy-found-to-be-critical-to-in/] and then waltz back in when the baby is born? Im sure that really works out well.

    This is not to say an insignificant number leave after the birth or even after divorce. And they should not be overlooked. A friend of mine's dad left the family home on his tenth birthday. Every year his birthday was a horrible day. He was often suicidal when his birthday came around and one day he went to the woods in the back of our college to hang himself.

    I know in high conflict divorce drastic things can happen including leaving your kids or perhaps taking them too. I imagine for my father's friend he was caught between the two stools. He eventually decided for the latter and abducted his seven year old and went to California with her. I also remember my best friend in primary school who's dad would fly in from Chicago once a year to see her for lunch. She always asked me to come because of the risk of abduction, I think also because of a high conflict divorce and evidently her father did absent himself except for the annual lunch. She turned out fine btw.


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    #438
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    metrovelvet wrote: »
    My point about most absentee dads do their running during pregnancy to dispute many of the reasons TC cited for absentee fathers as his reasons cited happen AFTER a baby is born but the abandonment in most cases is done waay before then, that's all.

    Hang on.

    These day's pregnancy does not mean automatic marriage.

    An accidental pregnancy is hardly a good basis for a relationship.

    Having sex with someone is not the same as or the basis for a long term relationship.


    A pregnant woman and the baby are not the same person but the relationship is one of fusion, that is why pregnant woman are told not to smoke and drink because everything that is pumping through them is pumping through the baby, and that includes adrenaline and cortisol.

    Fusion is a new one on me.

    Once a baby is born other than breastfeeding its about equal.In fact, I have seen magazine articles in the US on women "marrying down" just for that reason.

    I am pointing it out because I suspect that the day's of "a la carte" womens rights and the welfare system are numbered in Ireland.
    K-9 wrote: »
    Also why men often get told "it just isn't the same for men". We don't "bond" as quickly.

    Tosh - men bond -nest make - visit adverts & see boy racer cars for sale reason "pregnancy forces sale".
    metrovelvet wrote: »
    I was talking about absentee fathers. There is an implicit understanding by the term ABSENTEE FATHER that these men left their children.

    But with your fusion theory & am unsure what point you are making.

    A friend of my OH houseshares with her ex and part of the reason is her value's are such that it is the only way they can stretch the budget for them both to have a reasonable lifestyle. I admire her as I could not do it.
    .
    I know in high conflict divorce drastic things can happen including leaving your kids or perhaps taking them too. I imagine for my father's friend he was caught between the two stools. He eventually decided for the latter and abducted his seven year old and went to California with her. I also remember my best friend in primary school who's dad would fly in from Chicago once a year to see her for lunch. She always asked me to come because of the risk of abduction,

    This is Ireland and the one case I know about ended up in fatalities. The Americans take child abduction by mothers & fathers seriously and treat it like kidnapping.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/7981784/Mother-who-fled-failed-marriage-faces-extradition-battle.html

    What motivates Dads to do menial & dirty jobs and pay maintenance is often the contact they have with their kids.

    Or do we want this -


    Judge backs angry fathers over contact with children

    Call for sweeping changes to family justice system after 'shameful' court failures


      A judge might stipulate in an order for Saturday contact that the father's solicitor should notify the judge on Monday if there were any problems, so that the mother could be summoned to come to court on Tuesday and an order made committing her to jail, but suspended. Then, "the mother can be told in very plain English that if she again prevents contact taking place the following Saturday, she is likely to find herself in prison the following week". Where mothers were determined to flout contact orders, a "flabby judicial response" encouraged them to believe court orders could be ignored with impunity, he said.





    http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2004/apr/02/childrensservices.uknews

    Then you have someone doing something inspirational like my OH's friend.

    Lots of women do the right thing , all the time, and lots of men do too.

    It is irresponsible of some groups to encourage extreme behavior and as the judge said court orders should not be ignored.

    You wouldnt ignore the drink driving laws and expect to get a"by" so why these.


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    #439
    AnnyHallsal
    Registered Users Posts: 4,117 ✭✭✭AnnyHallsal


    Excuse my ignorance, and perhaps this is not the place to ask, but is there any planned reform for fathers in relation to custody, access etc? Is it going to become more equitable in the foreseeable future?


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    #440
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    metrovelvet wrote: »
    I was talking about absentee fathers. There is an implicit understanding by the term ABSENTEE FATHER that these men left their children.
    Then why did you quote an alleged statistic about relationship breakups rather than absent fathers?
    Im not suggesting anything. It just looks like it tends to work out that way. I guess he could absent himself out of her life during the pregnancy, [risk the child's health http://www.parentdish.com/2010/06/24/fathers-involvement-during-pregnancy-found-to-be-critical-to-in/] and then waltz back in when the baby is born? Im sure that really works out well.
    Just because a relationship ends, does not mean that the father has no part in even the pregnancy - there are plenty of cases where fathers will still be involved, to varying degrees, during pregnancy even though they are not involved romantically with the mother. Indeed, lack of involvement may not even be by choice, but as a result of the mother's resentment at the failed relationship (if she did not end it herself).
    AnnyHallsal wrote: »
    Excuse my ignorance, and perhaps this is not the place to ask, but is there any planned reform for fathers in relation to custody, access etc? Is it going to become more equitable in the foreseeable future?
    I don't believe that there are any plans, beyond vague aspirational ones, to reform this in the foreseeable future.

    The point I am making is that you appear to be equating commitment to a relationship with commitment to a child. It's not the same thing.


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    #441
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    AnnyHallsal wrote: »
    Excuse my ignorance, and perhaps this is not the place to ask, but is there any planned reform for fathers in relation to custody, access etc? Is it going to become more equitable in the foreseeable future?

    AFAIK -there is'nt.

    The problems with it as I see it is that the court system is adversorial and not conducive to fair solution's. There isn't a bad situation that the presence of a family lawyer hasn't made worse.

    The other situations are political. Lesbian families are already there. Yet, we don't have legislation for gay adoption ,probably , because that would open the door on men being treated equally.

    Lesbian families are non traditional and exist- and the world copes -so why not cope with this. In fact, there even has been an Irish case concerning ,access and maintenance concerning the biological father when the lesbian couple broke up. Thats the here and now.

    At a stretch, a society is judged by how it deals with its minorities.

    IMO, rights and responsibilities should be universal and not gender based and we ignore a lot of difficult issues.


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    #442
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    @CDFM, should have put in a :rolleyes: but I hate that boyo.

    Edit: hate that condescending attitude. Plenty of men bond, even during pregnancy or pick up the pieces of an alcoholic or post Natal Depressive mother.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #443
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    K-9 wrote: »
    @CDFM, should have put in a :rolleyes: but I hate that boyo.

    LOL - whatever do you mean. One of my close friends is a lesbian Mum. :)

    I am a well rounded modern guy - except for the odd mad outburst.

    That said. I am not about to start an Elton John's baby thread in tLL because that would be trolling :D.


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    #444
    metrovelvet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭metrovelvet


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    Then why did you quote an alleged statistic about relationship breakups rather than absent fathers?

    The stat came from a program about absent fathers and in the program it said that most became absent during the pregnancy.

    [QUOTE=The Corinthian;70435541
    Just because a relationship ends, does not mean that the father has no part in even the pregnancy - there are plenty of cases where fathers will still be involved, to varying degrees, during pregnancy even though they are not involved romantically with the mother. Indeed, lack of involvement may not even be by choice, but as a result of the mother's resentment at the failed relationship (if she did not end it herself).[/QUOTE]
    The Corinthian wrote: »
    I dont know of any personally but Im sure they are out there somewhere.

    I don't believe that there are any plans, beyond vague aspirational ones, to reform this in the foreseeable future.

    The point I am making is that you appear to be equating commitment to a relationship with commitment to a child. It's not the same thing.

    It often turns out that way is all I am saying.


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    #445
    metrovelvet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭metrovelvet


    CDfm wrote: »
    Hang on.

    These day's pregnancy does not mean automatic marriage.

    An accidental pregnancy is hardly a good basis for a relationship.

    Having sex with someone is not the same as or the basis for a long term relationship.





    Fusion is a new one on me.

    Once a baby is born other than breastfeeding its about equal.In fact, I have seen magazine articles in the US on women "marrying down" just for that reason.

    I am pointing it out because I suspect that the day's of "a la carte" womens rights and the welfare system are numbered in Ireland.



    Tosh - men bond -nest make - visit adverts & see boy racer cars for sale reason "pregnancy forces sale".



    But with your fusion theory & am unsure what point you are making.

    A friend of my OH houseshares with her ex and part of the reason is her value's are such that it is the only way they can stretch the budget for them both to have a reasonable lifestyle. I admire her as I could not do it.
    .



    This is Ireland and the one case I know about ended up in fatalities. The Americans take child abduction by mothers & fathers seriously and treat it like kidnapping.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/7981784/Mother-who-fled-failed-marriage-faces-extradition-battle.html

    What motivates Dads to do menial & dirty jobs and pay maintenance is often the contact they have with their kids.

    Or do we want this -




    Then you have someone doing something inspirational like my OH's friend.

    Lots of women do the right thing , all the time, and lots of men do too.

    It is irresponsible of some groups to encourage extreme behavior and as the judge said court orders should not be ignored.

    You wouldnt ignore the drink driving laws and expect to get a"by" so why these.

    cdfm,

    Im sorry but I do not understand this post whatsoever.


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    #446
    metrovelvet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭metrovelvet


    K-9 wrote: »
    @CDFM, should have put in a :rolleyes: but I hate that boyo.

    Edit: hate that condescending attitude. Plenty of men bond, even during pregnancy or pick up the pieces of an alcoholic or post Natal Depressive mother.

    For the record I wasnt talking about bonding, and yes the men bond too, but there is for obvious reasons not the same physical symbiosis that happens during pregnancy. You can even have the physical symbiosis without the psychological bond in some cases, particulalry where the mother is ambivalent about the pregnancy.


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    #447
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    metrovelvet wrote: »
    The stat came from a program about absent fathers and in the program it said that most became absent during the pregnancy.
    Actually you said most relationships end during the pregnancy, not that they become absent, or more correctly that they choose to have nothing to do with the child.

    This is not to say that many do not - after all, if a man does not want to be a father, this would be the logical time to declare his intentions, rather than being one then changing his mind down the road. So to a great extent I think what you are saying is probably correct.

    However, the end of the relationship does not mean this automatically and just because a man may not want to remain in a relationship with the mother does not mean that he does not want a relationship with his child. This section of fathers is also lumped into the same statistic, and no attempt has been made to differentiate it from those who simply want nothing to do with fatherhood.

    What you've been putting forward in your last few points appears to be a 'package deal' - that for a man to have a relationship with the child, he needs to have one with the mother and if he rejects the latter he, by default, rejects the former. This is simply not true as a father's relationship with the child is separate to that with the mother, outside of how the relationship with the mother can spill over and affect, positively or negatively, the relationship with the child.

    The danger with such 'package deal' thinking is that if a mother thinks so, then she may take the personal rejection as an overall one, or worse still make it a fete accompli as she reacts negatively as a result of the rejection, pushing him away during a time that he too is unsure about where he stands (people tend to forget that a 'crisis' pregnancy is not only about the mother).

    It would also be interesting to know how many try to be involved in the child's life at this early stage, only to find themselves pushed away and giving up early - after all, it is before birth that both genders find it easier to choose not to be parents, before bonds are formed.

    None of this is examined in the stat you alleged. Even if it were of men who walk away and not just end the relationship, it makes no attempt at why this happens. So it becomes a case of at best correlation not implying causation and at worst may give a misleading, and potentially damaging if taken truth, picture.


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    #448
    metrovelvet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭metrovelvet


    Ok well then I will have to split hairs and spell it out but I don't know if there is a virtual equivalent of alphabet blocks. After this I am done because I do not want to get repetitive stress disorder.

    The program which was aired a couple of weeks ago on BBC horizons or panorama, whatever it was called, said that they absent themselves from fatherhood during the pregnancy and from the relationship. Take the stats or leave them.

    There are also notable statistics that children lose touch with their fathers after divorce too. This is old news and there are a million reasons for this.

    You yourself said earlier that a lot of the problems are relational between the parents and now you are saying that the fathers relationship with the child is seperate. What is it this morning or did you flip a coin and come out with another conclusion?


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    #449
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    metrovelvet wrote: »
    The program which was aired a couple of weeks ago on BBC horizons or panorama, whatever it was called, said that they absent themselves from fatherhood during the pregnancy and from the relationship. Take the stats or leave them.
    TBH, the main reason I can't take them is because there seems to be some confusion as to what they are. First they represented relationship breakups. Now they represent rejection of fatherhood. Maybe they were given on Horizons, or maybe on Panorama.

    Even if we knew exactly what they represented or where they came, we would have to ask how they came about, or whether one can reasonably lump everyone in one generalized statistical demographic like that.

    I really cannot judge, let alone accept, something which appears to be vague hearsay.
    You yourself said earlier that a lot of the problems are relational between the parents and now you are saying that the fathers relationship with the child is seperate. What is it this morning or did you flip a coin and come out with another conclusion?
    Not at all, I've retained a consistent position, as I did qualify my statement by pointing out that "a father's relationship with the child is separate to that with the mother, outside of how the relationship with the mother can spill over and affect, positively or negatively, the relationship with the child."

    And that can (often) be the case, where a man will view his relationship to his child separate to his relationship with the mother. However, as gatekeeper to the child, the mother has the power to sabotage any relationship to the point where a man may simply give up - especially in the early stages, before a child is even born.

    Just because a relationship is separate, does not mean that outside influences cannot affect it. Indeed, Romeo and Juliette would have had a happy ending, were that not the case.


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    #450
    metrovelvet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭metrovelvet


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    Just because a relationship is separate, does not mean that outside influences cannot affect it. Indeed, Romeo and Juliette would have had a happy ending, were that not the case.

    Nothing works in isolation. It was Romeo and Juliet's tender naivety to think a relationship is separate from its community or family. Doesn't work that way as pretty and convenient it might be to think it does.


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    #451
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    metrovelvet wrote: »
    Nothing works in isolation. It was Romeo and Juliet's tender naivety to think a relationship is separate from its community or family. Doesn't work that way as pretty and convenient it might be to think it does.
    I never said it works in isolation, I said that it is a separate relationship. If a third party influences that relationship they are interfering in a relationship that is not theirs. They are trying to make a relationship between two others about themselves.


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