GAA season Overhaul

Mulcahy

Over the last number of months there has been a lot of talk and newspaper articles on topics like ‘the back door system’ or a new championship format or winter training bans or college teams allowed in pre-season tournaments. There are a number of issues in the GAA World that I feel need a change and I would like to outline them by a number of posts dealing with each competition individually. Today is the first post outlining with what I would do with college football and hurling.[/FONT]


Fitzgibbon Cup
A 12 team tournament played through the months of October and November (8 weeks)
Divided into the West & East Divisions

West Division containing two groups of three teams;
- Southwest made up of UCC, CIT & UL
- Midwest containing LIT, NUIG & GMIT
All teams in the West Division plays each other once with the top ranked team getting a home draw in the final. The team that wins the other division gets a home draw for the play-off game against the next top ranked team.

East Division also containing two groups of three teams;
- Southeast containing WIT, UCD & DIT
- North east containing DCU, St. Pats & UUJ
Same format as West Division explained above.

Both winners of the West & East meet in the Fitzgibbon Cup Final to be played at one of the teams home ground.


Sigerson Cup
A 16 team tournament played through the months of September, October and November (10 weeks)
Divided into Southwest & Northeast Divisions

Southwest comprising of two groups of four teams;
- South made up of UCC, CIT, UL & Carlow IT
- West made up of NUIG, GMIT, Sligo IT & Athlone IT
All teams in the Southwest Division plays each other once with the winners of both divisions getting a home semi-final. The other semi-final places are awarded to the next two top ranked teams (which could come from the same division or from either division). The final between both semi-final winners is played at the home ground of the team with the higher ranking from the group stages.

Northeast also with two groups of four teams;
- East containing UCD, DCU, NUI M & DIT
- North with UUJ, St. Marys, Queens & (another Ulster team or Dundalk IT)
Same format as Southwest Division explained above

Both winners of the Southeast & Northeast meet in the Sigerson Cup Final to be played at one of the teams home ground




Proposals for Competition Rules

• No replays except for the final, all other games to have extra-time if required.
• Extra-time to be played for 15mins, if one team is winning after this then game is over. If it is still a draw a second round of 15mins is played and so on until a winner is found.
• Group game points system - 3 points for a win, 2 points for a winning extra-time draw, 1 point for a losing extra-time draw & 0 points for a lose.
• If teams are level on points at the end of the group stage then it comes down to head to head i.e. which team won the game between each other.

Proposal for Running Competition

• All games played on a Wednesday evening / night in Munster / Connaught / Ulster region. Wednesday and Thursday evening / night in Dublin due to number of teams in the same area.
• Unused stadiums during the winter period around the country play host to college teams e.g. LIT & UL playing in the Gaelic Grounds, Dublin teams in Parnell Park, Cork team in PUC, Galway team is Pierce Stadium, etc.
• Organize fixtures so that both football and hurling teams from the same city are playing at home on the same week, e.g. in Limerick four games would take place, 2 in hurling and 2 in football. LIT footballers would be the first game followed by the hurling (while still daylight) with the UL football team taking center stage under the lights around 7:30pm. Hurling group week 1-3 games could be fixed as the main game at 7pm while we still have late evenings.
• Organize fixtures so that these games could be centre point of the college’s rag week – football and hurling NUIG v GMIT during NUIG rag week. Same for Limerick, Cork, Dublin, etc.
• Let the college student unions promote and run the games as an event. I’m sure they will have ideas to bring the support of the students to the games. As it is the off-season with no other major gaelic games on the schedule and as all the teams are based in the major cities and towns of Ireland there should be a population base to follow the local college team as well.
• Rights to sell off a highlights show to either RTE, TV3, TnaG or Setanta could take place. Once crowds start going to the games one hurling and one football game a week could be shown on tv.

Shown below is how Fitzgibbon Cup could be allocated this space on the calendar every year.
Sigerson Cup would start on the 28th of September

2011
Oct 12thUniversity Fitzgibbon CupGroup Round – 1
Oct 19th University Fitzgibbon Cup Group Round - 2
Oct 26th University Fitzgibbon Cup Group Round - 3
Nov 2nd University Fitzgibbon Cup Group Round - 4
Nov 9th University Fitzgibbon Cup Group Round - 5
Nov 16th University Fitzgibbon Cup East Division Play-Off &West Division Play-Off
Nov 23rd University Fitzgibbon CupEast Division Final&West Division Final
Nov 30th University Fitzgibbon Cup Final

Any thought

Mulcahy

Ok so here is the next topic I propose for the GAA season

Railway Cup
Semis played the weekend before St. Patrick’s Day with final on St. Patrick’s Day in Croke Park.

Proposal for Running Competition
- Make it the official start of the season tournament where the best players from the previous season go head to head
- Players are picked to represent their province by a voting system. 1/3 of the vote is made up by county managers, 1/3 of the vote from county players and the final third by the fans.
- Semi-Finals could be held throughout the county for example Munster play Leinster in both hurling and football double header every fourth year. First year both semi-final games played in Munster choice of ground, four years later games played in Croker and so on.


Mar 13th Interprovincial Railway Cup Simi-Finals
Mar 17th Interprovincial Railway Cup Final

Any thoughts

hisholinessnb

Its a long standing tradition that the All Ireland club finals are played in Croke Park on St Patricks day.
Pick another date for your Railway finals

Agus

To be honest, there is a need to restructure the entire season. However, two simple changes that would relieve many fixtures problems would be

(1): players who have appeared in senior inter-county championship not to play Sigerson/Fitzgibbon
(2): players can only represent their county at 1 level in a given year, e.g. can be in the under-21 panel or in the senior panel but not both

munchkin_utd

the simplest change would be to stop dragging out the provincial football championships till mid july,
which leaves a load of knockout and backdoors to get out of the way in 8 weeks till the all ireland.

i.e. the Ulster championship drags on from for about 10 weeks from May to Mid july.
Compress that to 6 weeks, and then theres more time between provincial finals and the all ireland final, which would give time to avoid a fiasco where provincial loosers have to play in the backdoor 7 days later.

aDeener

hisholinessnb wrote: »

Its a long standing tradition that the All Ireland club finals are played in Croke Park on St Patricks day.
Pick another date for your Railway finals

railway cup finals have a much longer tradition of being on st. patrick's day

bookie basher

i always thought that u21 footballs primary role is to produce players that can play at senior level so if your on the senior team at 20 there is no need to play u21 anymore, too many young fellas are being used by too many teams

Mulcahy

The idea is in moving the College competitions to Oct/Nov and playing off the All-Ireland Club Championship within the one calendar season before December a new GAA season can begin in January. It seems a bit silly to me for seasons to be overlapping, where different competition fixtures are piled up at the start of a new season for players. The biggest complaint for county managers is not having a full complement of players to prepare for the All-Ireland as some players are involved with the All-Ireland Club Championship, their club season begin, mid-week college games and at U21 levels (some players even involved in all five competitions leading to player burn-out).

By having the college and club games played and finish up at the end of a regular season and making the month of Dec the off-season & Jan just for pre-season training (weather plays havoc with fixtures at this time anyway) it would lead the way for a fresh new season to begin.

I have a few thoughts for the NFL & HHL – will post later.

Clareman

I think the biggest problem is players playing for different teams and competitions, I think if you were to split each segment into their own season and try to limit overlaps as much as possible.

I also think that underage players (i.e. college and Under 21) should be accommodated by having their competitions as mush outside of exam times as possible but also taking into account that having under 21 players on senior teams is an exception rather than a rule. Also, under 21 championship would have to be a "floating" competition where fixtures would need to be changed depending on the Senior Championship.

Inter-county Championship
As the blue-ribbon competitions these should be given top priority. Late April/May till September should be enough time to play these over.

League
With no replays to worry about there should be no reason why this couldn't be ran off during Feb - Late April/May (depending on Championship). I would also propose that it is the home counties responsibility to have a venue available, if a pitch is unplayable, visiting team gets the points. Bit rough, but it will limit re-arrangements. In the event of a pitch being unplayable an alternative venue can be nominated within 1 hour of the original.

Club Competitions
Bit of an annoyance for me, so apologies in advance. County Championships should be the vehicle for getting players for the County Team, you aren't going to discover a new allstar by playing it during October. You should be able to play it during the summer. If a club is affected by having too many intercounty players, then relegation shouldn't be an option for them. Also, most counties are out of the championship in August, play the county championship August-October if need be.

Inter-County Club Championship
Have a hard start date of 3 weeks after the All Ireland Final for this, this will allow every county adequate time to get a champion, if a county can't get a team in time then they forfeit the tie, unless the opposition are willing to make an exception. Counties will know 12 month in advance when they have to have their championships finished by. By the end of November there should be only 4-6 teams left in the inter-club, semis/quarters to be played in Feb, final at St. Patrick's day.

College's/Railway Cup
Personally I think the GAA is 1 of the biggest tourist attractions Ireland has and St. Patrick's Day is 1 of the biggest tourism periods for Ireland, why not use it to promote the Games? I would leave the Club finals in Croke Park, but have the College's and Railway Cup Finals at different locations leading up to St. Patrick's Day. You could have the Railway Cups as part of the St. Patrick's Day Celebrations in Belfast, Sigerson in Cork & Fitzgibbon in Galway for example.

Uncle Mclovin

The only way forward is to scrap the provincial championships and set up 8 groups of 4 league system the same as champions league.

When it moves to knockout there should be no replays. Extra time until a winner prevails.

This way individual county boards can do a proper calendar at the start of the year and they wouldn't have to be allowing for unforeseen circumstances which drags the whole season all over the place.



Of course this won't happen for the next 20/30 years with all the backward thinking people involved at the top of the GAA.

hisholinessnb

"The only way forward is to scrap the provincial championships and set up 8 groups of 4 league system the same as champions league"

Attendances would be way down if we did that.
If the weaker counties are drawn to play on the other end of the county against a far superior side they most likely will not travel.
Also what about the third games in these groups of 4 when the teams playing have no chance of progressing out of the group?
Do you honestly think people will bother going to this game in large numbers?*
The extra travel involved in making fans travel outside their province, possibly 3 times, would also adversely affect attendances.
This would fail miserably.
Not to mention the fact that MOST people in the country, fans, players and managers are more than happy with the current provincial system and see a provincial title as a great honour.

"When it moves to knockout there should be no replays. Extra time until a winner prevails"

While it would solve a problem fixture wise, this would be crazy. Why throw away the revenue they can make from these replays?
Remember this revenue trickles down to the grass roots of the sport, so lets not cut off our nose to spite our face.

"Of course this won't happen for the next 20/30 years with all the backward thinking people involved at the top of the GAA"

What an ignorant statement that is.
If they don't change things to you way, which clearly does not make sense for the above reasons, they are backward thinking??
Tired old cliches like this to bash the administrators of the GAA only reflect badly on the person using them.

KrazeeEyezKilla

The Provincial Championships gives more teams the chance to win something so it would be a big risk to scrap them. The prospect of matches like Cork v Cavan is hardly going to improve things. If each Province had eight teams then the whole Championship would be much easier to run off in a shorter period.

Uncle Mclovin

Hisholiness


It's not all about the money which you seem to think is the most important task. I don't know do you play football or hurling but for players who aren't on county panels like me in Kerry. We could go 3 months during the summer and only play 3 games.


How many provincial games get big attendances? The only games that draw big crowds tend to be finals or if two big teams clash. In Munster this year there was big crowds at two games. Kerry V Cork SF and Kerry V Limerick Final.

If it were to be split up as I have suggested you are still going to have big games and of couse you will have dead rubbers but people are still going to go to the big games. And anyway as the competition progresses the games are going to get more important which will encourage better crowds.

Ignorant statement???? Are you seriously telling me that Christy Cooney and the man before him Nicky Ward aren't backward thinking men.

jordainius

Too much analysis of the structures. The current format IS working in both hurling and football, the only real outstanding issue is scheduling.

Provincial championships must be retained. Take this year for example, Limerick, Louth, Monaghan, Sligo and Roscommon are all teams who realistically were never going to win the All-Ireland, but they all appeared in provincial finals, Limerick and Louth came close to winning silverware, Roscommon did win silverware. Why on earth do people want to take that away?

As a Limerick man, I know that winning a football All-Ireland will never happen in my lifetime. Take away the more realistic opportunity of winning a Munster title and you've killed my interest forever.

A champions league format is not what the championships need; the reason the champions league is structured as it is is purely for financial reasons; people seem to forget that about half the group games in the champions league are dead rubbers, and many times we are faced with the following scenario's;

• teams already qualified playing each other
• a team already qualified playing a team whose qualification hopes are over
• two teams whose qualification hopes are over playing each other
• a team with nothing to play for playing a team who needs the win

The current format brings importance to every game. Whether or not it is the provincial or All-Ireland/qualifier series; the winner advances or wins a trophy and the loser goes out. That's what the championship is all about.

hisholinessnb

"Hisholiness
It's not all about the money which you seem to think is the most important task"

Revenue from intercounty matches is the single biggest earner for the GAA. The association, and by result the small clubs, need this money for survival.
So yes, the money is hugely important.

"I don't know do you play football or hurling but for players who aren't on county panels like me in Kerry. We could go 3 months during the summer and only play 3 games"

I played football up till last year. Games get cancelled for one reason or another, but never went an entire summer with just 3 games or anywhere near that figure. I'd suggest the individual county board should be questioned in your instance.

"How many provincial games get big attendances? The only games that draw big crowds tend to be finals or if two big teams clash. In Munster this year there was big crowds at two games. Kerry V Cork SF and Kerry V Limerick Final"

Yes but the games with small attendances would be even smaller in your format.
If for example, Carlow fans wont turn out in their thousands for a game against Wicklow, you can be sure much less will travel to Donegal!

"If it were to be split up as I have suggested you are still going to have big games and of couse you will have dead rubbers but people are still going to go to the big games"

Like we do with the current format, but the games in the group stages would see much smaller crowds than current early stage provincial matches.

"And anyway as the competition progresses the games are going to get more important which will encourage better crowds"

This is exactly what we have now, but with your group idea, some matches will get less important as they go along.
Example being a last match in the group between 2 teams already with no chance to progress.

"Ignorant statement???? Are you seriously telling me that Christy Cooney and the man before him Nicky Ward aren't backward thinking men"

Nicky Ward?? Point proven!

Uncle Mclovin

Thats a fair point but even if the provincials were edited even in the slightest to allow 8 teams in each province. Say like bringing Laois and Offaly in to Munster to make it 8 teams and have 4 quarter finals.

I still maintain that replays should not be allowed for. It's all about the money, nothing else.

Uncle Mclovin

Nickey Brennan. Haven't a clue where I got Ward from. Anyway you know what I meant.

I suppose you're right I'm wrong.

I'll leave it at that.

jordainius

Uncle Mclovin wrote: »

Thats a fair point but even if the provincials were edited even in the slightest to allow 8 teams in each province. Say like bringing Laois and Offaly in to Munster to make it 8 teams and have 4 quarter finals.

You're right regarding the imbalance in numbers of the provinces but that would be very difficult to change, I'd imagine that Laois and Offaly would probably strongly object to being drafted out of Leinster and into Munster.

Something a bit more suitable is having North, South, East and West divisions with a few changes made to give 4 groups of 8. For example;
N: Ant, Arm, Cav, Fer, Mon, Tyr, Der, Dow.
S: Lim, Cor, Ker, Wat, Tip, Klk, Wex, Car.
W: Cla, Don, Lngf, May, Gal, Ros, Lei, Sli.
E: Dub, Mea, Wes, Kld, Wic, Lou, Off, Lao.

This retains local rivalries, and gives a divisional championship for the lesser counties to aspire to. I wouldn't object to it, but at the same time I'd still prefer to retain the provinces.

Another thing is London; they spoil the nice number of 32! But I think they have to be included. And New York. Those two teams, particularly with emmigration so rampant would have to be included somehow.

Uncle Mclovin wrote: »

I still maintain that replays should not be allowed for. It's all about the money, nothing else.

How though? Replays are a bit of a problem but there would have to be some sort of tiebreaker as opposed to keep on playing til a winner emerges.

I like replay's though myself, I've fond memories of running onto the pitch like a lunatic after Limerick finally defeated Tipp in the 2007 trilogy. There's something about winning a game after a replay (or two!) that only serves to make it all the more satisfying!

Uncle Mclovin

jordainius wrote: »

I like replay's though myself, I've fond memories of running onto the pitch like a lunatic after Limerick finally defeated Tipp in the 2007 trilogy. There's something about winning a game after a replay (or two!) that only serves to make it all the more satisfying!

I hope ye enjoyed those days while ye had them.:D


I guess people don't like change and I can't see any changes in the foreseeable future. I just think a more evenly balanced draw would be for the benefit of evryone throughout the GAA.

hisholinessnb

Uncle Mclovin wrote: »

I guess people don't like change and I can't see any changes in the foreseeable future. I just think a more evenly balanced draw would be for the benefit of evryone throughout the GAA.

Its not as simple as saying people don't like change. Thats just another lazy cliche to try to portay them as wrong while you are right.
You made your suggestions and I pointed out why they would not work.
If you come up with something workable then great! The problem is that nobody has come up with a better arrangement to date.

DH2K9

This would be my format

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055958434

An Citeog

If you're going to exclude senior intercounty players from college competitions, you're going to have a lot of lads losing out on their scholarships and ultimately, degrees.

antoobrien

Mulcahy wrote: »

2011
Oct 12thUniversity Fitzgibbon CupGroup Round – 1
Oct 19th University Fitzgibbon Cup Group Round - 2
Oct 26th University Fitzgibbon Cup Group Round - 3
Nov 2nd University Fitzgibbon Cup Group Round - 4
Nov 9th University Fitzgibbon Cup Group Round - 5
Nov 16th University Fitzgibbon Cup East Division Play-Off &West Division Play-Off
Nov 23rd University Fitzgibbon CupEast Division Final&West Division Final
Nov 30th University Fitzgibbon Cup Final

Any thought

Logistics militate against starting these competitions early as the college year has only started 6 weeks (often less) before tour suggested start time. Moving these competitions is problem attic because of the scheduling of exams (i.e. some do them in December, others in January).

Dump the secondary provincal competitions (FBD League, Walsh & O'Byrne etc) cups instead and if you want to have more games to develop players provide for a league with a different structure.

Mulcahy

Pre-season training – January
NFL & NHL – February to Mid-April
U21’s Championship (no change in format – you lose, your out, no back door) – February to Mid-April
- With the college season moved to before Christmas it would allow U21’s space in the calendar to run off this competition. Someone posted earlier with the idea of not allowing player who are on the senior team to play with the U21’s, I think these player would feel a bit hard done by if they weren’t allowed. Think of the 3-in-a-row limerick hurlers or some of the weaker football counties who have won it. These lads haven’t won much at senior level, don’t think they would give up their medals just because they were too good at that U21 level.
St. Patrick’s Day – did like the idea by Clareman to have club, college & railway cup games played throughout the country on this day but still feel competitions would be overlapping too much for players to play with each team.
County club games would also be beginning their season during this period


NFL & NHL
February to mid-April. (4 weeks – 4 match weekends)

4 Divisions consisting of 8 teams
Each division is sub-divided into 4 teams each to make Division 1A & Division 1B, Division 2A & so on
Teams played each other in their sub division once leading to;
- Top team in 1A & 1B play off for winner and runner-up
- Second placed teams play off for 3rd & 4th (lower divisions this would be a game for promotion)
- Third placed teams play off for relegation with losers dropping to Division 2
- Fourth place teams play off for 7th & 8th and both relegated to Division 2 also.
Same process continues with Division 2, 3 & 4 with 3 teams winning promotion and 3 teams relegated

Proposals for Competition Rules
- No replays except for the final, all other games to have extra-time if required.
- Extra-time to be played for 15mins, if one team is winning after this then game is over. If it is still a draw a second round of 15mins is played and so on until a winner is found.
- Group game points system - 3 points for a win, 2 points for a winning extra-time draw, 1 point for a losing extra-time draw & 0 points for a lose.
- If teams are level on points at the end of the group stage then it comes down to head to head i.e. which team won the game between each other.

Proposal for Running Competition
- Organize games so that a counties hurling & football team is playing at home on the same weekend.
- You might say ‘but with less games in the league and no warm up Walsh cup, etc. competitions where will managers get a chance to try new players. How about counties having a ‘B-Team’ or in some cases like Dublin, where they could probably field a South Dublin and North Dublin teams. These teams would only complete in a separate league with the same format. To keep travel costs down for the county have a southern league and a northern league. This would allow counties to field a strong first team but also give counties an opportunity blood new players while the extra games would not be impeding on other competitions as it is still being run off on the same weekends as the other league games.
- League positions for the counties first team would be used as ranking for group games for the Championship (no not champions league open draw format – will explain in later posts)
- With the league having less games, seeding positions for the Championship and purely the only warm up competition before the Championship it should lead to a better quality tournament and hopefully a larger crowd puller.

Any thoughts

Pharaoh1

Surely there is a fundamental issue here with GAA inter county competition.

Open to correction but it is probably the only field sport in the world where its premier competition is run only on a knockout basis (accepting that there is a back door)
Every other field sport whether it is rugby, soccer, aussie rules, american football etc..has some form of league or round robin system which gives all players and teams a schedule games spread over a period of time.

Why has the GAA deliberately decided not to do this?

My theory and it has been referred to already is the supporter base.
Like it or not many who attend the smallish number of championship games in relatively large numbers would not go to 15 or 20 games a year.
Call them fair weather or event junkies or whatever.
The GAA understand this and really have to maintain the status quo.
The formula of a small number of relatively well attended games suits the GAA image as well as the sponsors and TV stations.

antoobrien

Pharaoh1 wrote: »

Every other field sport whether it is rugby, soccer, aussie rules, american football etc..has some form of league or round robin system which gives all players and teams a schedule games spread over a period of time.

Why has the GAA deliberately decided not to do this?

I don't know of a single league competition that is as long running as the All-Irelands (football leauge started 1888) - so you could ask all those other oganisations why they were so bleedin ignorant as to not take on our model

hisholinessnb

Also to bear in mind huge numbers of people involved with clubs do not get to the league or earlier games as they are involved with club games. Club games within the county are generally not held the day of championship games during the summer. If you were to hold more championship games in a league format, that would mean either a) lots of people would not be able to attend due to club commitments or b) club competitions would descend into mayhem trying to work around the increased number of county championship games.

And bear in mind the other sports you mention like American and Aussie rules football generally contain teams from cities with huge populations, so its easy to get a big crowd regularly, unlike the likes of Leitrim / Carlow etc.

Pharaoh1

I'm not being critical of the way the GAA has set up its inter county programme.
If I was in charge I would not do a lot differently as I think the present system works well on a number of different levels.
The fact remains that a large number of our inter county footballers will train like crazy and play only two or three competitive games in the five months May to Sept this year. It's better than the old system where 50% only played one game but its hardly ideal from the players point of view.

The other issue I rarely hear discussed is how the setup impacts on the disciplinary system.
Commentators are calling for games based bans without thinking through how that would work. Take a scenario where a player commits a serious enough offence that merits say a four match ban in his last championship game of the year.
How does he serve that ban?
- With his next four club games? Hardly fair - think Brian O'Driscoll getting red carded for Ireland and sitting out Leinster games as a comparison
- Four matches for the county in the next O'Byrne cup or NFL? Is this sufficient? We see even the very top players easing themselves back into League action.
- How about he serves four inter county championship matches as this is the competition he was sent off in? But if he is from a weaker county he could be out of action for two seasons or in effect three calendar years.

All I'm saying is that there are consequences to the way the inter county competitions are set up and there are major consequences to radically altering them.
I believe the GAA understand this and as a result have been slow to make any major changes

Mulcahy

The idea behind this format is to keep the provincial championship, more games for teams during the summer and to promote hurling in the weaker counties. So here goes.

The Hurling Championship
Runs from the Bank Holiday weekend of May to second last weekend of September (21 weeks – 8 match weekends)

Liam McCarthy
Divided into three Provincial Championships – Munster, Leinster & combined Connaught / Ulster Championship.

PROVINCIAL LEAGUE (01/05/2011 to 24/07/2011 games every 3 weekends)
Munster consisting of 5 teams (Limerick, Waterford, Tipp, Cork & Clare) playing each other once in a league format

Leinster consisting of 5 teams (Kilkenny, Offaly, Wexford, Dublin & a combined Leinster team from the other 8 remaining counties) playing each other once in a league format

Connaught / Ulster consisting of 4 teams (Galway, Antrim, combined Connaught team & a combined Ulster team) playing each other once in a league format

PLAY-OFF ROUND (14/08/2011)
Runners-up in both leagues of Munster & Leinster play off against 1st & 2nd of Connaught / Ulster league

SEMI-FINAL (04/09/2011)
Winners of both Munster & Leinster leagues await winners of play-off round

FINAL (18/09/2011)


Christy Ring Cup
Teams who finish in the final three positions of both the Munster & Leinster provincial league plus the bottom two teams of the Connaught/Ulster league would compete for this cup (knock-out cup format).

Nicky Rackard Cup
Mayo, Roscommon, Kerry, Down, Derry, Armagh, Meath, Kildare, Wicklow, Laois, Carlow, Westmeath

Lory Meagher Cup
Leitrim, Sligo, Longford, Louth, Fingal, Monaghan, Cavan, Donegal, Fermanagh, Tyrone, South Down, London Warwickshire


Proposal for Running Competition
- Major point is promotion of hurling within the weaker counties so joining county teams would hopefully give those players a chance to play on a higher level and maybe win a provincial final. These teams can always be divided more if they become too strong – say a South Leinster and a North Leinster team or maybe just a Longford / Westmeath combined team.
- More games in the Championship and during the summer months in the competition when fans and players want to involved. Teams get a minimum 3-4 Championship games and minimum 1 game extra in the Christy Ring Cup if your knock out of the Championship.
- Ranking system from the league would work where the team who finishes highest in the league would play the lowest ranked team from the league as their first game within the provincial league and so on.

Championship season is run off along the lines of;

• Week 1 – Munster & Leinster hurling
• Week 2 – Connaught/Ulster hurling & Connaught and Ulster Football Championship
• Week 3 – Munster & Leinster football

In this format Connaught/Ulster hurling games could get more exposure by playing the competition as warm-up games to the football championship.
- With an 8 game weekend program, 12 weeks free between the months of May to August, clubs should be able to run off their main championship with a full allocation of their county players. Replays only apply from the Play-Off Round onwards so clubs have set date they know when the county team is playing to arrange fixtures. Club All-Ireland championship to be run off between Oct to start of December

Agus

Mulcahy wrote: »

The idea behind this format is to keep the provincial championship, more games for teams during the summer and to promote hurling in the weaker counties. So here goes.

The Hurling Championship
Runs from the Bank Holiday weekend of May to second last weekend of September (21 weeks – 8 match weekends)

Liam McCarthy
Divided into three Provincial Championships – Munster, Leinster & combined Connaught / Ulster Championship.

PROVINCIAL LEAGUE (01/05/2011 to 24/07/2011 games every 3 weekends)
Munster consisting of 5 teams (Limerick, Waterford, Tipp, Cork & Clare) playing each other once in a league format

Leinster consisting of 5 teams (Kilkenny, Offaly, Wexford, Dublin & a combined Leinster team from the other 8 remaining counties) playing each other once in a league format

Connaught / Ulster consisting of 4 teams (Galway, Antrim, combined Connaught team & a combined Ulster team) playing each other once in a league format

PLAY-OFF ROUND (14/08/2011)
Runners-up in both leagues of Munster & Leinster play off against 1st & 2nd of Connaught / Ulster league

SEMI-FINAL (04/09/2011)
Winners of both Munster & Leinster leagues await winners of play-off round

FINAL (18/09/2011)


Christy Ring Cup
Teams who finish in the final three positions of both the Munster & Leinster provincial league plus the bottom two teams of the Connaught/Ulster league would compete for this cup (knock-out cup format).

Nicky Rackard Cup
Mayo, Roscommon, Kerry, Down, Derry, Armagh, Meath, Kildare, Wicklow, Laois, Carlow, Westmeath

Lory Meagher Cup
Leitrim, Sligo, Longford, Louth, Fingal, Monaghan, Cavan, Donegal, Fermanagh, Tyrone, South Down, London Warwickshire


Proposal for Running Competition
- Major point is promotion of hurling within the weaker counties so joining county teams would hopefully give those players a chance to play on a higher level and maybe win a provincial final. These teams can always be divided more if they become too strong – say a South Leinster and a North Leinster team or maybe just a Longford / Westmeath combined team.
- More games in the Championship and during the summer months in the competition when fans and players want to involved. Teams get a minimum 3-4 Championship games and minimum 1 game extra in the Christy Ring Cup if your knock out of the Championship.
- Ranking system from the league would work where the team who finishes highest in the league would play the lowest ranked team from the league as their first game within the provincial league and so on.

Championship season is run off along the lines of;

• Week 1 – Munster & Leinster hurling
• Week 2 – Connaught/Ulster hurling & Connaught and Ulster Football Championship
• Week 3 – Munster & Leinster football

In this format Connaught/Ulster hurling games could get more exposure by playing the competition as warm-up games to the football championship.
- With an 8 game weekend program, 12 weeks free between the months of May to August, clubs should be able to run off their main championship with a full allocation of their county players. Replays only apply from the Play-Off Round onwards so clubs have set date they know when the county team is playing to arrange fixtures. Club All-Ireland championship to be run off between Oct to start of December

Not sure that's the best structure. For example, the Connacht/Ulster championship would not be especially interesting or competitive. Chances are that more often than not Galway would win every game confortably.

jordainius

Mulcahy wrote: »

The idea behind this format is to keep the provincial championship, more games for teams during the summer and to promote hurling in the weaker counties. So here goes.

The Hurling Championship
Runs from the Bank Holiday weekend of May to second last weekend of September (21 weeks – 8 match weekends)

NO, just NO. The first Sunday in September is All-Ireland hurling final day. No debate.

Liam McCarthy
Divided into three Provincial Championships – Munster, Leinster & combined Connaught / Ulster Championship.

PROVINCIAL LEAGUE (01/05/2011 to 24/07/2011 games every 3 weekends)
Munster consisting of 5 teams (Limerick, Waterford, Tipp, Cork & Clare) playing each other once in a league format

Leinster consisting of 5 teams (Kilkenny, Offaly, Wexford, Dublin & a combined Leinster team from the other 8 remaining counties) playing each other once in a league format

Connaught / Ulster consisting of 4 teams (Galway, Antrim, combined Connaught team & a combined Ulster team) playing each other once in a league format

PLAY-OFF ROUND (14/08/2011)
Runners-up in both leagues of Munster & Leinster play off against 1st & 2nd of Connaught / Ulster league

SEMI-FINAL (04/09/2011)
Winners of both Munster & Leinster leagues await winners of play-off round

FINAL (18/09/2011)

So, turn the provincial championships into a bloated boring league structure which in the final 2/3 rounds will be full of dead rubbers. And remove the knockout element from provincial championships altogether? AND re-create the problem of Galway and Antrim not having a competetive provincial championship to play in by creating a Connacht/Ulster championship (which by the way, would be won by Galway every year until the end of time...).

Sorry, but every element of your All-Ireland championship structure is terrible.

Combined Leinster team? Please tell me that's a joke?

Christy Ring Cup
Teams who finish in the final three positions of both the Munster & Leinster provincial league plus the bottom two teams of the Connaught/Ulster league would compete for this cup (knock-out cup format).

Um, there would be no interest in this. The calibre of county you would have playing in this would have no interest in a B Competition.[/QUOTE]

Nicky Rackard Cup
Mayo, Roscommon, Kerry, Down, Derry, Armagh, Meath, Kildare, Wicklow, Laois, Carlow, Westmeath

I'd imagine Westmeath and Carlow would not be too pleased with being kicked out of the reformed elitist McCarthy Cup! And what have you got against Laois?

Lory Meagher Cup
Leitrim, Sligo, Longford, Louth, Fingal, Monaghan, Cavan, Donegal, Fermanagh, Tyrone, South Down, London Warwickshire

Sligo, London, and possibly Louth and possibly Longford would be much too good for the remainder of teams. The current structure is fine at the moment.

Proposal for Running Competition
- Major point is promotion of hurling within the weaker counties so joining county teams would hopefully give those players a chance to play on a higher level and maybe win a provincial final. These teams can always be divided more if they become too strong – say a South Leinster and a North Leinster team or maybe just a Longford / Westmeath combined team.
- More games in the Championship and during the summer months in the competition when fans and players want to involved. Teams get a minimum 3-4 Championship games and minimum 1 game extra in the Christy Ring Cup if your knock out of the Championship.
- Ranking system from the league would work where the team who finishes highest in the league would play the lowest ranked team from the league as their first game within the provincial league and so on.

Promotion of hurling in weaker counties? See what I said re; Laois, Carlow and Westmeath.
Longford/Westmeath combination? A bit insulting to those counties!
More championship games during the summer? Means less club championship games during summer months for the average club hurler, which is already a big enough problem as it is.

Championship season is run off along the lines of;

• Week 1 – Munster & Leinster hurling
• Week 2 – Connaught/Ulster hurling & Connaught and Ulster Football Championship
• Week 3 – Munster & Leinster football

In this format Connaught/Ulster hurling games could get more exposure by playing the competition as warm-up games to the football championship.
- With an 8 game weekend program, 12 weeks free between the months of May to August, clubs should be able to run off their main championship with a full allocation of their county players. Replays only apply from the Play-Off Round onwards so clubs have set date they know when the county team is playing to arrange fixtures. Club All-Ireland championship to be run off between Oct to start of December

Club All-Ireland Championship to be run off between October and December?? Does this mean you think the All-Ireland club final should be in December? Not exactly the best month for hurling- and you want the country's showpiece club hurling game to be in December? (And have the railway cup final on paddy's day instead as indicated in a previous post).

Also, club championships will run not off from May to August with this structure as you seem to think. Most counties will get a round or two in before the championship starts, and the club championship then gets put on hiatus until the county's McCarthy cup involvement is over.

Almost everything in that post is a terrible idea.

hisholinessnb

The more I read the ideas on this thread, the better the existing arrangements look!

Some of the ideas on here are an absolute shambles.

People want change for the sake of change, it ain't broke folks.

DH2K9

hisholinessnb wrote: »

The more I read the ideas on this thread, the better the existing arrangements look!

Some of the ideas on here are an absolute shambles.

People want change for the sake of change, it ain't broke folks.

That explains why not one provincial winner got to the semi-finals last year.

hisholinessnb

DH2K9 wrote: »

That explains why not one provincial winner got to the semi-finals last year.

So we take a first time ever occurrence and use it as a reason to change everything beyond recognition??

And so what if they didn't make the semi finals?
Most of the provincial winners who were knocked out have more than benefited from the back door system themselves in recent seasons.

Your point is irrelevant no matter how many times people say its a disaster that this happened.

jordainius

DH2K9 wrote: »

That explains why not one provincial winner got to the semi-finals last year.

In fairness, the backdoor wasn't designed to protect provincial champions or ensure them an easier path to the semi finals. (Let me point out that I'm not saying you said/think that!) Also, lets not overlook that last year was the first time that no provincial champion made the semi's since it was introduced in 2001!

The biggest problem (in my own opinion) is how the football provincial championships are scheduled- the way its staggered is a bit strange. All first round games in each province should be held the same weekend, all quarter final games in each province on the same weekend and so on.

antoobrien

Football

Rearrange the provincial championships into an open draw double elimination format - everyone gets a second chance. Will be slightly complicated by the mixed numbers in each province, but it's workable.

In the case of a draw, 20 mins, Extra time followed by 20 more. Replay if required. Or for more fun have all 6 starting forwards on each team take a penalty - more emphasis on people that can kick the ball - with sudden death after that.

4 champions play in the semi finals (straight knockout) to be rotated in the same fashion as the pre-back door system. Do a draw for the first two years and follow the sequence after that.

Hurling

Leave the three lower tier competitions as they are to see how the extra tier develops.

Liam McCarthy

Move Galway to Munster & Leave Antrim in Leinster (to even up the numbers a bit and because it's more practical than moving Antrim in there).

Run the two provincial championships off as double elimination, with the champions meeting in the final.

Have some kind of promotion/relegation system (which has to be enforced this time, no appeals to congress) to give the teams in the Christy Ring a chance to play in the Liam McCarthy.

namloc1980

hisholinessnb wrote: »

So we take a first time ever occurrence and use it as a reason to change everything beyond recognition??

Well only 3 out of the last 12 semi-finalists in football have been provincial winners.

This is my proposal click here. It retains the traditional importance of the provinces, but every team gets at least 2 games. Plenty of time for club games also.

jordainius

While I admit that it can lead to an interesting discussion- I always find these threads a bit pointless, nobody will ever make a suggestion that major holes can't be poked in!

munchkin_utd

jordainius wrote: »

While I admit that it can lead to an interesting discussion- I always find these threads a bit pointless, nobody will ever make a suggestion that major holes can't be poked in!

well... (assuming that the major problem in the football is the congestion between provincial finals and quarter finals, with back door games to be squeezed in there for the loosing provincal finalists)

... my suggestion was simply to compress the provincial championships from currently May-July to something more compact, say May - late June.

Taking the guts of 3 months to whittle down 6 teams to 1 in a KNOCKOUT like in Connacht is just stoopid. (round robbin would be loads of games, but this IS a knockout, you loose youre out)
Even in Ulster, 9 teams to 1 is easy done if you played more than one game in a WEEKEND which is currently the case.
Theres friday night - Saturday and Sunday afternoons there also to play games.

It would be culture shock for Provincial Councils to get their head round having games on a Saturday, but its already there with big replays and the backdoor.

Clareman

Clareman wrote: »

I think the biggest problem is players playing for different teams and competitions, I think if you were to split each segment into their own season and try to limit overlaps as much as possible.

I also think that underage players (i.e. college and Under 21) should be accommodated by having their competitions as mush outside of exam times as possible but also taking into account that having under 21 players on senior teams is an exception rather than a rule. Also, under 21 championship would have to be a "floating" competition where fixtures would need to be changed depending on the Senior Championship.

Inter-county Championship
As the blue-ribbon competitions these should be given top priority. Late April/May till September should be enough time to play these over.

League
With no replays to worry about there should be no reason why this couldn't be ran off during Feb - Late April/May (depending on Championship). I would also propose that it is the home counties responsibility to have a venue available, if a pitch is unplayable, visiting team gets the points. Bit rough, but it will limit re-arrangements. In the event of a pitch being unplayable an alternative venue can be nominated within 1 hour of the original.

Club Competitions
Bit of an annoyance for me, so apologies in advance. County Championships should be the vehicle for getting players for the County Team, you aren't going to discover a new allstar by playing it during October. You should be able to play it during the summer. If a club is affected by having too many intercounty players, then relegation shouldn't be an option for them. Also, most counties are out of the championship in August, play the county championship August-October if need be.

Inter-County Club Championship
Have a hard start date of 3 weeks after the All Ireland Final for this, this will allow every county adequate time to get a champion, if a county can't get a team in time then they forfeit the tie, unless the opposition are willing to make an exception. Counties will know 12 month in advance when they have to have their championships finished by. By the end of November there should be only 4-6 teams left in the inter-club, semis/quarters to be played in Feb, final at St. Patrick's day.

College's/Railway Cup
Personally I think the GAA is 1 of the biggest tourist attractions Ireland has and St. Patrick's Day is 1 of the biggest tourism periods for Ireland, why not use it to promote the Games? I would leave the Club finals in Croke Park, but have the College's and Railway Cup Finals at different locations leading up to St. Patrick's Day. You could have the Railway Cups as part of the St. Patrick's Day Celebrations in Belfast, Sigerson in Cork & Fitzgibbon in Galway for example.

Sorry for the shameless bumb, but it looks like the GAA might be listening to us

Mehapoy

Clareman wrote: »

Sorry for the shameless bumb, but it looks like the GAA might be listening to us

Looks like they might finally do something about it, the problem is the proposals will go to congress, be voted down by guys that played in a totally different timeframe(50's, 60's, 70's) and have an attitude of 'it was good enough for us so it should be good enough for them' ...very hard to change things in the GAA...

munchkin_utd

Clareman wrote: »

Sorry for the shameless bumb, but it looks like the GAA might be listening to us

where do you see a massive change?
the timetable I saw proposed still left 4 ulster quarter finals over 4 weeks IIRC - and then cram the living daylights of all the proper knockout games in July/August.
Hurling doesnt need to be re-jigged as theres so few games in the first place.

munchkin_utd

heres the proposed new calendar for 2016 with club finals in December and Hurling final end of August, which to me is missing the point.
The only change in Ulster football (the main culprit for the long GAA season if truth be told) is a lessening of the gap between the semis and the final from 4 or 5 weeks to 2 or 3 weeks.
There really needs to be 2 round 1 (quarter final) games on the same weekend to get them out of the way quicker and then the whole provincial series can be wrapped up in June ready for 8 weeks of pure knockout action !
Or at least move the whole thing a week earlier again and have the first round 1 and the preliminary game on the same weekend.

Pete_Cavan

munchkin_utd wrote: »

heres the proposed new calendar for 2016 with club finals in December and Hurling final end of August, which to me is missing the point.
The only change in Ulster football (the main culprit for the long GAA season if truth be told) is a lessening of the gap between the semis and the final from 4 or 5 weeks to 2 or 3 weeks.
There really needs to be 2 round 1 (quarter final) games on the same weekend to get them out of the way quicker and then the whole provincial series can be wrapped up in June ready for 8 weeks of pure knockout action !
Or at least move the whole thing a week earlier again and have the first round 1 and the preliminary game on the same weekend.

Did someone actually take my schedule from a few months ago to make that?

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=92771611

Looks suspiciously like it!

If I have a free weekend soon I might try to expand out my schedule to include League, interpros, etc.

iDave

The provincial championship scheduling is still all over the place.
All 4 Ulster QFs played on separate weekends. A month just to sort out Ulsters QFs!
3 Leinster QFs played on 1 day but bizarrely the 4th a week later. This is usually the one that doesn't involve any of the prelim winners so its even odder that gets played last.
The Connacht prelim involving New York a week before the Leinster & Ulster prelims.
3 weeks to play 2 Connacht 'QFs'
3 weeks to play 2 Connacht SFs but just 1 day needed to do the same in Leinster and Munster.
Leinster and Connacht finals on same day but Ulster and Munster get to be stand alone.

davegrohl48

The first thing to be established with a season overhaul is to get rid of all unnecessary games that neither GAA supporters, club player, inter county player or club/county managers would mind if were scrapped.
Competitions to be gotten rid of:
1. The inter provincials/Railway cup. (1 - 2 games inter county)
- GAA Supporters rarely even know the weekends this is on.
- It's up to two extra games that county players don't need.
2. The league semi finals/finals ( 1 -2 games inter county)
- Simply award the league titles to the highest placed teams
3. The international rules series (2 games inter county)
- Barely any interest in this competition this year from media and gaa supporters.
4. U21 club. It's simply not sustainable anymore, the playing numbers are not there in most clubs to play U21. Many clubs are putting out amalgamation teams. Big pressure to get teams togged with lads being away at university.
5. Club competitions other than regular league/championship.
Most championships now have a group stage. There is enough games between divisional league and group stages of championship.
6. Inter county minor is too much on young people in leaving cert/first year university. Can simply have inter county U20 for this level. This allows most players get their leaving cert done unimpeded. Players should only have two years at this level 19 and 20. It has the advantage of not clashing with last year of University.
7. The only inter county competitions are league and championship.
Eligibility:
1. Minor club players cannot play senior club
2. County senior players are to be made up of players 21 and over i.e. no one from U20.
3. Only eligible to play county U20 in the final two years when U19 and U20
4. Players in University cannot play Freshers and Sigerson (already done I believe). Also cannot play Freshers if registered for inter county. It's wrong for an inter county player to be competing at that level against what are often 18 year old club players. I'v seen county minor forwards sitting on the bench as they couldn't displace two senior inter county forwards.
5. Players registered for Sigerson cannot play inter county league till Sigerson completed (many managers respect this already).

There's no need for more whitepapers on player burnout or injuries. The evidence is undeniable in terms of the volume of serious injuries suffered in games and progressive injuries.