Crime in Mind documentary:Philip Cairns

Ann22

Anyone else see this? My heart's broke for that lads' parents. How would you ever have peace of mind again? There were three experts on the programme taking a fresh look at the case.

They concluded at the end that Philip likely mitched from school and either fell into the Dodder river or met his killer down around its banks. I don't really believe this, they said he was a religious child who respected authority and always did as he was told so he doesn't sound like a child who would skive off school. Maybe he was worried about his schoolwork but if a child is so anxious about getting his homework done it's possible but imo not likely that he'll skive off school.

They also suggested that he was being bullied, surely someone would've known if he was. His teachers have also said that up until he went missing, his concentration levels were good, that if his name was called by mistake to read in class, he always knew where they were in the passage.

Because there was a wide pathway along the road he was walking, they say he wasn't abducted there. I thought that was a daft assumption. They briefly mentioned a schoolboy seen talking to someone in a parked car but they didn't place much emphasis on this. Here's a quote from Barry Cummins' book 'Missing'....

"Some weeks after the disappearance of Philip Cairns a man contacted the Gardaí in Rathfarnham. What he told them was at first to intrigue them but ultimately to frustrate them.

He told them he had been driving along Ballyroan Road from Ballyboden Road between 1:20 and 1:30 p.m. on Thursday 23rd October 1986-the time Phillip is believed to have been abducted.

Close to Ballyboden Road he noticed a red car, which he described as being badly parked and obstructing traffic. He said he had seen a boy wearing a grey school jumper and carrying a bag approaching the front passenger door of the parked car.

The witness had been angered by the way the car was parked and told the gardaí he had written down the registration number of the car. However, he no longer had the number. He had gone on to the airport, and while he was away his wife had cleaned out his car and the number was lost. It was only after he learnt of the disappearance of Philip Cairns that he remembered about the badly parked car.

This incident may have been perfectly innocent but it just goes to show that the lad could well have been taken from the roadside. He didn't have to have been taken kicking and screaming. If that was Philip then it looked like he knew his abductor.

I really hope someday someone comes forward to help find the poor little lad:(.

stovelid

Crazy to think he'd be in his 30s now. I was around the same age as him and have never forgotten his face from those posters at the time.

Latchy

I was in the area working just down the road from his house on the day he disappeared and can remember the events oh so well .

Ann22

Latchy wrote: »

I was in the area working just down the road from his house on the day he disappeared and can remember the events oh so well .

No way Latchy:(. I worked with a sister of one of his classmates. She said it was a terrible time.

Kersh

Crazy to think he'd be in his 30s now. I was around the same age as him and have never forgotten his face from those posters at the time.

Me too, never ever forgot it.

flyton5

Every now and again they re-issue the posters. There was one in Texaco on Rathfarnham Road quite recently. Didn't see the show but a Garda friend of mine said the main suspect at the time was a now deceased priest...

Latchy

Ann22 wrote: »

No way Latchy:(. I worked with a sister of one of his classmates. She said it was a terrible time.

Yeah , I remember the only real clue was his schoolbag appearing next day in the lane opposite his house ..now that was weird and strange .If as that driver said, about seeing a schoolboy get into a car ,then it would not take somebody long to drive up into the Dublin mountain area or away down the country via what was the nearby duel carrigeway .Also the forensics science techniques the police have today wern't around back then .

TeddyTedson

Has anyone that went to his old christian brothers school heard the other rumor about what may have happened to him.

yurmothrintites

They also said in the documentary that an elderly woman came forward in 2008 stating that her partner had admitted to his killing and told her of Philip's body's whereabouts. They investigated and searched two wooded areas on the other side of the m50 I think, but that didn't amount to any further leads or evidence. Hopefully somebody has seen that documentary and has the courage to come forward, but how likely is it 25 years later?

Ann22

flyton5 wrote: »

Every now and again they re-issue the posters. There was one in Texaco on Rathfarnham Road quite recently. Didn't see the show but a Garda friend of mine said the main suspect at the time was a now deceased priest...

It'd make sense that he'd get into a car with a priest (nowadays kids would run a mile) or maybe a teacher. They mentioned that a couple of years ago a woman came forward saying her ex (I think)confessed to her that he'd murdered Philip. That led to the search that went on around a golf course.(Sorry, I didn't spot the previous post)

Another disturbing thing I read in the 'Missing' book was that 16yrs after Philip's disappearance, in 2002, another schoolboy was walking on that same road and a car coming from the Rathfarnham direction, made a U-turn and stopped close to the child. The driver said something along the lines of 'Come on, you're late. Get in!' The boy didn't get in luckily but if a child was an anxious child in his first year in secondary school you can imagine how he'd feel pressured to get in. Could've possibly been the same person who took Philip.

jackie1974

I remember this so well, I was 10 at the time. Wasn't there reports that the alley where the school bag was found was searched on the day he disappeared but nothing was found yet six days later the bag was found there, I thought that very strange. You'd think if somebody took him from the street they would dump his bag in some remote area why risk putting it in an area where police were searching.

Jesus Wept

Where is this documentary?

Dudess

Remember it so well. I was eight and it terrified me. I was at that age where adults would be regularly giving the "Never speak to a strange grown-up" talks...

TeddyTedson

Anyone know if it's going to be repeated?

Ann22

The-Rigger wrote: »

Where is this documentary?

It was on tv3 tonight.

Ann22

TeddyTedson wrote: »

Anyone know if it's going to be repeated?

You can watch it here on Tv3 catch up
http://www.tv3.ie/index.php
(It was about Annie Mc Carrick last week.)

carm

TeddyTedson wrote: »

Anyone know if it's going to be repeated?

I don't see it listed but you could try the TV3 website:
http://www.tv3.ie/videos.php?locID=1.65.573

Latchy

Ann22 wrote: »

It was on tv3 tonight.

I will watch it on the tv3 website if available tks .

Edit -just saw previous posts

Jesus Wept

This documentary is seriously lacking in content.

Orando Broom

I don't believe the parents have fully disclosed what they know/ what they suspect.

Philip Cairns was kidnapped/killed by someone he was familiar with and knew well.

The schoolbag was left back, it was an attempt to throw the authorities off the trail.

In 90% of these cases the perpetrators are well known to the family and the truth is shame and guilt prevent parents from admitting to themselves what they allowed to develop/happen.

Jesus Wept

Orando Broom wrote: »

I don't believe the parents have fully disclosed what they know/ what they suspect.

Philip Cairns was kidnapped/killed by someone he was familiar with and knew well.

The schoolbag was left back, it was an attempt to throw the authorities off the trail.

In 90% of these cases the perpetrators are well known to the family and the truth is shame and guilt prevent parents from admitting to themselves what they allowed to develop/happen.

Can you show me a link to support this?

stovelid

The-Rigger wrote: »

This documentary is seriously lacking in content.

To be honest, I did too but I guess there isn't much information to go on. I'm not really a fan of that dramatised reconstruction documentary style that seems to have crept more and more into so-called serious TV in recent years but it was still worth a watch, I thought,

Can't begin to even imagine what it's like to not only lose your kid, but never know what happened and where the remains are.

Big Nasty

TeddyTedson wrote: »

Has anyone that went to his old christian brothers school heard the other rumor about what may have happened to him.

No but I'm interested to know!

enda1

MCMLXXV wrote: »

No but I'm interested to know!

Likewise. Went to the school but didn't hear any particular rumour.

Orando Broom

The-Rigger wrote: »

Can you show me a link to support this?

Sorry you're right it's less it's 76%.

Based on the identity of the perpetrator, there are three distinct types of kidnapping: kidnapping by a relative of the victim or "family kidnapping" (49 percent), kidnapping by an acquaintance of the victim or "acquaintance kidnapping" (27 percent), and kidnapping by a stranger to the victim or "stranger kidnapping" (24 percent).

http://www.klaaskids.org/pg-mc-mcstatistics.htm

pow wow

Terribly sad story but the premise of this show is utterly ridiculous. It's one thing to revisit the case and draw attention to it so that some new evidence might surface, but contemporary psychologists essentially speculating about what happened to him and fabricating a whole series of events that they 'think' happened after he was last seen is little more than pointless conjecture.

I'd of course hope that it leads to some advancement of the investigation and a breakthrough so his family can have closure and whatnot, but the way the programme was arranged seemed like it was a vehicle primarily for these folks to peddle their speculative skills.

Fighting Irish

yup

aidan24326

If you look at the site missingpersons.ie there's a remarkable number of people on the missing list here. Some of them have been missing for years and yet some of those cases never drew much publicity or media interest. I wonder is that because the families in question didn't push the case as much as some others did?

Then you have the more high-profile cases like Trevor Deely and Deirdre Jacob, where renewed efforts and appeals for information have turned up no leads whatsoever.

wyndham

There was nothing new in this show and some of it was nonsense. Like when they were in the laneway and the woman was speculating that Philip may have hidden his schoolbag in the bush overhanging the wall for it to fall down later. Hence why it only reappeared later. 25 years ago there was no bush there.

Even the interviews with the parents were 10 years old. They must have declined to be involved and you can see why from the approach.

Fighting Irish

carm wrote: »

I don't see it listed but you could try the TV3 website:
http://www.tv3.ie/videos.php?locID=1.65.573

Won't load for me :mad:

Fighting Irish

Oh wait, it's on irishtorrents

Orando Broom

TV3 do a good line in tabloid sensationalist claptrap.

fryup

Ann22 wrote: »

It'd make sense that he'd get into a car with a priest (nowadays kids would run a mile) or maybe a teacher. They mentioned that a couple of years ago a woman came forward saying her ex (I think)confessed to her that he'd murdered Philip. That led to the search that went on around a golf course.(Sorry, I didn't spot the previous post)

good point

and remember this was way back before revelations about child sex abuse in catholic church became public knowledge

who was the local PP of the time ? was he questioned ?

J K

fryup wrote: »

who was the local PP of the time ? was he questioned ?

This is the pointlessness of this kind of documentary. The interesting stuff, the things were known or suspected won't be in program like this because either they aren't aware of it or wouldn't be able to substantiate any of it.

TeddyTedson

MCMLXXV wrote: »

No but I'm interested to know!

There's a rumor that used to do the rounds that he was being abused by a teacher or christian brother and he then told one of the other teachers/christian brothers about the abuse but there was a pedophile ring in the school and it was another one involved in it he had told and they abducted him.
It's only a rumor though, I'm sure there are lots about such cases. We'll probably never know.

Kersh

There's a rumor that used to do the rounds that he was being abused by a teacher or christian brother and he then told one of the other teachers/christian brothers about the abuse but there was a pedophile ring in the school and it was another one involved in it he had told and they abducted him.
It's only a rumor though, I'm sure there are lots about such cases. We'll probably never know.

Wouldnt overly surprise if this was the case. It probably still is the preferred method of dealing with these "issues" in THAT religion. Disgusts me. :mad:

Novella

Yeah, I watched it but tbh, the documentary kind of annoyed me. "He definitely wasn't abducted from here anyway, look at the size of these footpaths". Maybe he got into a car there with someone he knew? Their certainty about some events just bugged me because the whole issue with this case is that no one has a clue.

I really can't imagine something as horrible as having a child or someone you love going missing. Almost 25 years and still no idea what happened to him, where he went. My heart goes out to his family.

Ann22

Novella wrote: »

Yeah, I watched it but tbh, the documentary kind of annoyed me. "He definitely wasn't abducted from here anyway, look at the size of these footpaths". Maybe he got into a car there with someone he knew? Their certainty about some events just bugged me because the whole issue with this case is that no one has a clue.

I really can't imagine something as horrible as having a child or someone you love going missing. Almost 25 years and still no idea what happened to him, where he went. My heart goes out to his family.

It's been annoying me since I watched it. People at work who know little about the case were talking about it today, going on about the fact that he might've wandered off intstead of going back to school. I was so píst off. I don't believe that for a second.

That stupid blonde said he was clearly anxious about his homework and it would indicate that he didn't want to go back to school:rolleyes:. If he was struggling with the homework he'd been given that morning during his lunchbreak why mitch that afternoon? He'd have been better off not going in the next day when he had that subject again. He wouldn't have the same subject after dinner. He even changed his books for his afternoon classes.

Whoever killed him could well have been watching that show smirking to himself.

pow wow

Ann22 wrote: »

It's been annoying me since I watched it. People at work who know little about the case were talking about it today, going on about the fact that he might've wandered off intstead of going back to school. I was so píst off. I don't believe that for a second.

That stupid blonde said he was clearly anxious about his homework and it would indicate that he didn't want to go back to school:rolleyes:. If he was struggling with the homework he'd been given that morning during his lunchbreak why mitch that afternoon? He'd have been better off not going in the next day when he had that subject again. He wouldn't have the same subject after dinner. He even changed his books for his afternoon classes.

Whoever killed him could well have been watching that show smirking to himself.

You reminded me of the part now where they suggested suicide might have been a possibility as he was under 'pressure' at school! They didn't really explain what this pressure was or indeed if it went beyond the usual teenager + schoolwork scenario. Awful, awful programme.

Ann22

pow wow wrote: »

Terribly sad story but the premise of this show is utterly ridiculous. It's one thing to revisit the case and draw attention to it so that some new evidence might surface, but contemporary psychologists essentially speculating about what happened to him and fabricating a whole series of events that they 'think' happened after he was last seen is little more than pointless conjecture.

I'd of course hope that it leads to some advancement of the investigation and a breakthrough so his family can have closure and whatnot, but the way the programme was arranged seemed like it was a vehicle primarily for these folks to peddle their speculative skills.

I totally agree. It served no purpose at all. Probably did more harm than good actually:(.

(Btw..That blonde woman, sorry I don't know her name was equally useless in last week's Annie McCarrick 'reconstruction'. She deduced(:rolleyes:) that Annie was seeing a married man secretly that's why she got two buses to Enniskerry instead of walking around Sandymount..did you ever hear such shíte? Oh...and because she invited her friend to 'come along' implied she was meeting someone(?). (Why then if she was in a secret relationship, would she invite her mate along ffs?). Poor Annie, they showed video footage of her. I felt a lump in my throat, I only ever saw photos.)

Ann22

pow wow wrote: »

You reminded me of the part now where they suggested suicide might have been a possibility as he was under 'pressure' at school! They didn't really explain what this pressure or indeed if it went beyond the usual teenager + schoolwork scenario. Awful, awful programme.

Yeah and why the fck would he bother doing his homework at all if that was the case or change his books for the afternoon. Very heartless to suggest such a thing. God help his parents:(.

chillywilly

I just watched this myself, I agree....the two "experts" were spouting speculative bullsh*t. They ignored the most obvious explanation being that he got into a car driven by his parish priest/relative/neighbour. The girl who found the bag clearly stated that she had been up and down the lane, then saw it the last time.....it was dry after it had been raining.....clearly dropped off by someone!

quite annoying, that program!

coats

for anyone who didn't see it it's going to be repeated on 3e next wednesday 26th at 9

philstar

they suggested in the programme that he might have went off to the dodder river, so i'm just wondering is the dodder deep enough to sweep away a young boy to the sea?

stovelid

philstar wrote: »

they suggested in the programme that he might have went off to the dodder river, so i'm just wondering is the dodder deep enough to sweep away a young boy to the sea?

Definitely not the part they were showing in the programme. Either they didn't bother their holes walking down and actually looking at it or they were spoofing it up for viewers.

PrincessLola

chillywilly wrote: »

I just watched this myself, I agree....the two "experts" were spouting speculative bullsh*t. They ignored the most obvious explanation being that he got into a car driven by his parish priest/relative/neighbour. The girl who found the bag clearly stated that she had been up and down the lane, then saw it the last time.....it was dry after it had been raining.....clearly dropped off by someone!

quite annoying, that program!

Agreed. Seems the most likely explanation. He was likely offered a lift by someone known to him and trusted.

TeddyTedson

stovelid wrote: »

Definitely not the part they were showing in the programme. Either they didn't bother their holes walking down and actually looking at it or they were spoofing it up for viewers.

I find it hard to believe anything could be washed down the dodder. It's not exactly the Shannon now is it.
I think we can rule this out.
I love to find out what really happened! People just disappearing like that really freaks me out.

Little Acorn

Ann22 wrote: »

It's been annoying me since I watched it. People at work who know little about the case were talking about it today, going on about the fact that he might've wandered off intstead of going back to school. I was so píst off. I don't believe that for a second.

That stupid blonde said he was clearly anxious about his homework and it would indicate that he didn't want to go back to school:rolleyes:. If he was struggling with the homework he'd been given that morning during his lunchbreak why mitch that afternoon? He'd have been better off not going in the next day when he had that subject again. He wouldn't have the same subject after dinner. He even changed his books for his afternoon classes.

Whoever killed him could well have been watching that show smirking to himself.

I thought they said that it was homework that was due for that afternoon after lunch, not for the next day, and that is why he was rushing so much?
It's not completely implausible that he would have dossed that class.
It's something I often did myself in secondary school.
It said his sister had seen that he was really struggling with it and had offered him help but he had refused.
He had also asked him mum to let him stay off the afternoon to look after his granny for the afternoon.

Although I do agree with you, that it is also not completely implausible that he went missing of his busy neighborhood road.
They were definitely far too dismissive of that idea, especially considering that a witness reported that they had seen a boy matching his description leaning in the window of a red car that was parked awkwardly blocking the traffic etc..

I didn't like their explanations for the reappearance of is schoolbag either. Why would he "stash" his bag in a bush in an alley? Even if he had, surely it would have been found during the extensive search. Even if it had been in a bush and fallen it would still have gotten a bit wet in the rain, not completely dry like the girl who found it said.
They also said that someone may have just found it, and just thrown it there cos they didn't want anything to with it. I can't imagine anyone innocent doing that. Surely the whole neighborhood wanted to do anything they could to help, and it would have been very risky and look really bad if they had been caught dumping it instead of just handing it in.

There was a clip of a newspaper article in that documentary that said something along the lines of "Did school pal dump Philip's bag?"
Apparently the bag was found the very afternoon that all the school children had first been brought into the school for questioning. This could easily be coincidence though.

I also read that 2 of his school books were missing from his bag. His 2 religion books to be exact. In the documentary they kept emphasizing the fact that he was a very religious boy. I'm not sure what significance the missing books are,that's even if they are significant, but I don't remember them mentioning the missing books in that documentary and was wondering why?
Also why didn't they give all the details of the report from witness who thinks he saw boy matching Philip's description at the red car?

Interesting enough documentary, but they seemed to have left a good bit out, and classed too many of their theories as near enough fact.

Latchy

TeddyTedson wrote: »

I find it hard to believe anything could be washed down the dodder. It's not exactly the Shannon now is it.
I think we can rule this out.
I love to find out what really happened! People just disappearing like that really freaks me out

Same here .With the girl In Bristol England who went missing over the christmas and her body found just a few miles from were she lived on christmas day ,the only suspect is/ was her landlord who it now seems has being taken off the list of .

It seems another girl was also murdered in the same area about 27 years ago and her murderer has never being caught and (obiously ) in Phillips case nobody can be charged until a body surfaces .

Dudess

Re the Dodder thing: someone came forward all right a good few years after - 1994/5 direction - with some information about a sighting of a young boy or boys on a bridge that day... oh I'm racking my brains trying to remember exactly what it was and I can't find links to it. I remember it being treated as quite a significant breakthrough at the time, headline news etc... but it fizzled out.

Such a chilling case... The schoolbag not being in the alley initially, but then being there a couple of days later might be of no significance, but there's something so creepy about it...

chillywilly

Dudess wrote: »

Re the Dodder thing: someone came forward all right a good few years after - 1994/5 direction - with some information about a sighting of a young boy or boys on a bridge that day... oh I'm racking my brains trying to remember exactly what it was and I can't find links to it. I remember it being treated as quite a significant breakthrough at the time, headline news etc... but it fizzled out.

Such a chilling case... The schoolbag not being in the alley initially, but then being there a couple of days later might be of no significance, but there's something so creepy about it...

I think that is quite significant. IMO it shows that Philip didn't leave it there, as it was dry etc and that whoever left it there seemed to be familiar with the area. The bag was found in the lane 6 days after he disappeared, assuming he was abducted, I don't think that the abductor would come back to the scene of the crime 6 days after unless he lived in and was familiar with the area and he could easy go for a walk and drop it in the lane. I also think that it was left there in an attempt to get the authorities to believe he had walked in a different route to school that day.

I live in Ballinteer, just up the road, and I remember my mother telling me she was freaked out moving in to the area after this had happened ( I moved here in '87 I think)