For whom the bell tolls - Munster Rugby?? **Mod Warning. read Post #10".**

conno16

a "crossroads" definitely
no one can argue they've had an amazing run but a rebuilding phase of unprecedented proportions is now necessary
key gaps all over the field - most notably the scrum, No 8 and midfield
bigtime investment required this summer
Munster must raid the NZ camp post the RWC to start
the doug howlett approach works, provided you are smart about who you recruit

discuss

mikedragon32

This thread can go either way. Hopefully it stays constructive.

I don't think this is the end of an era. I think Munster have been poxed with bad luck all season between injuries and suspensions (not necessarily bad luck, but you take my point). If Munster had won yesterday, there'd be none of this talk and all the chatter would have been about how everyone had written Munster off but how all the critics have been proven wrong (again).

I fully expect Munster to bounce back. Every so often every dynasty needs a kick up the hole. They've had it. Move on.

As for the filling of gaps, I'm not entirely sure going to the market in NZ is the best option either. Some of the purchases have been suspect to say the least. Tuitopu (spl?) being a prime example.

I honestly believe that the IRFU should be forcing more cooperation between the provinces in moving players around to ensure enough game time for enough players to build depth in the Irish squad. Of course it must be augmented with some purchases, but what does it benefit Munster or Ireland in the long term to go after SH players who may play with spirit but are ultimately after the paycheck to boost their retirement? I would say the same for Leinster.

conno16

far less of a conveyor belt in munster than leinster so those comparisons are rubbish in my opinion
this is not a simplified excuse either

however munster are not even getting a player through every season
this must be the minimum requirement for the feeder system

i would raid NZ in particular because of the real gap that has emerged between munster and the top euro sides (leinster included)
they need to spend big, no question

Tim Robbins

Right first up, I'll admit I don't watch every game and my knowledge is limited.

But, if you go back to the 2006 semi with Leinster and look at the team sheet for the games - thanks to post from Jackass here...

You see:

Leinster team wrote:

15: Girvan Dempsey
14: Shane Horgan
13: Brian O’Driscoll CAPTAIN
12: Gordon D’Arcy
11: Denis Hickie
10: Felipe Contepomi
9: Guy Easterby

1: Reggie Corrigan
2: Brian Blaney
3: Will Green
4: Bryce Williams
5: Malcolm O’Kelly
6: Cameron Jowitt
7: Keith Gleeson
8: Jamie Heaslip

Replacements: David Blaney, Ronan McCormack, Emmett Byrne, Niall Ronan, Eric Miller, Brian O’Riordan, Kieran Lewis, Rob KearneY

Munster team wrote:

MUNSTER:

15. S Payne
14. A Horgan
13. J Kelly
12. T Halstead
11. I Dowling
10. R O'Gara
9. P Stringer

1. F Pucciariello
2. J Flannery
3. J Hayes
4. D O'Callaghan
5. P O'Connell
6. D Leamy
7. D Wallace
8. A Foley - CAPTAIN

Replacements: D Fogarty, F Roche, M O'Driscoll, S Keogh, J Manning, R Henderson, T O'Leary

Five years on, how many players have Munster brought through?

Now, even though my knowledge is limited I know enough to say that the Munster B - team has been doing very well in the B&I cup, an effective B team beat the Ozzies and nearly the all blacks and Munster have done very well in the Magners league which is the tournement which tests your squad.

So there's two sides to the argument if Munster are bringing players through, I think they need to get the lads into their Heineken Cup team, not just treat them as squad players.

Since that game in 2006, the only player you'd say is going to start a Heineken Cup game would be Earls. The other new players are all imports. Bringing one player through in five years isn't enough.

Leinster have brought through, O'Brien, McFadden, Fitzgerald, Healy, McGlaughin, Toner (ok maybe this is a push but he has been capped for Ireland), Sexton. I am not counting players from other provinces, or players brought home from England.

And I am not counting the other lads (such as O'Malley) yet. As they haven't got enough H Cup caps yet. I am also not counting imports.

I hope that people know me well enough to know I am not trying to start an inter provincial rubbish here and I have made a constructive point.

All I am saying is Munster need to just to ensure that the players in their squad get their chance at the highest level and make sure they are bringing through players not just for the squad but for their first 15.

If the average llifespan of a professional rugby career is ten years. You want to be bring 1.5 players through every year, so after 5 years you should have at least 7 brought through to your first 15. Then things becomes sustainable.

Thanks.

jolley123

I'm not liking how sky and some people here are talking as though the Munster era is over. I think this year just wasn't a settled year for the team. They were without big names and leaders - Paul O'Connell and Jerry Flannery, then other injuries took away from there depth - Felix Jones, Tomas O'Leary, Alan Quinlan. As well as that, the centre partnership of Tuitupo and Earls didn't click.

From what I've seen the Munster youth coming through looks talented. Darragh Hurley when he's come on has looked decent, Mike Sherry is a real prospect and then there are loads of other names like Butler,Nagle,Murphy,Dineen.

mikedragon32

conno16 wrote: »

far less of a conveyor belt in munster than leinster so those comparisons are rubbish in my opinion
this is not a simplified excuse either

however munster are not even getting a player through every season
this must be the minimum requirement for the feeder system

i would raid NZ in particular because of the real gap that has emerged between munster and the top euro sides (leinster included)
they need to spend big, no question

Then you need to ask yourself WHY Munster aren't bringing players through. If the management don't have faith in their academy to use it as a "conveyor belt" then the problem is there. Perhaps Munster aren't putting enough resources into it?

I'm not familiar with the Munster academy system, but surely to God any team with feeder set ups should be looking to bring their own youth through before going shopping?

Monty Burnz

jolley123 wrote: »

I'm not liking how sky and some people here are talking as though the Munster era is over. I think this year just wasn't a settled year for the team. They were without big names and leaders - Paul O'Connell and Jerry Flannery, then other injuries took away from there depth - Felix Jones, Tomas O'Leary, Alan Quinlan. As well as that, the centre partnership of Tuitupo and Earls didn't click.

From what I've seen the Munster youth coming through looks talented. Darragh Hurley when he's come on has looked decent, Mike Sherry is a real prospect and then there are loads of other names like Butler,Nagle,Murphy,Dineen.

It is over - for the time being. Munster look to have a choice here; they can contiunue to limp along as also rans, patching up the old team here and there with imports; or, my preferred option - they can do what Australia do so well and start building a team today that will be great in 4 years. 'Darragh Hurley looks decent' - but is 'decent' what Munster should be aiming for? Why not good, or great?

Bring through the young guys and start building. Hayes, O'Callaghan, Quinlan - those guys have been great servants to the the province and will be considered greats, but their time is over. Others like Buckley and Tuitoupu will never be good enough.

conno16

what sort of contract has o'callaghan for example
didn't he renew with the irfu there in the last 6 months

we should be nudging some of these guys in the direction of france, not offering them new deals that they can relax into

Tim Robbins

conno16 wrote: »

what sort of contract has o'callaghan for example
didn't he renew with the irfu there in the last 6 months

we should be nudging some of these guys in the direction of france, not offering them new deals that they can relax into

That's a very good point.

toomevara

mikedragon32 wrote: »

This thread can go either way. Hopefully it stays constructive.
.

+1, it bloody well better because I will happily ban the bejayis out of anyone who trolls or takes the mick on here. You've all been warned!

pajunior

I don't think Munster need to go overboard with the 'rebuilding'. I'm sure the papers are tearing them to shreds this morning (haven't read any yet), but lets be honest after a big loss you're never as bad as the papers say just like after a big win you're never as good as they say you are.

Munster have not gone to the dogs, and Ireland will not win the WC with a Leinster 15.

Munster only need to bring in 2/3 imports (while shipping off their current worse imports) and to blood 2/3 young lads to qualify for the QF next year.

In three/four years commentators may well look back on yesterdays game and say it was the beginning of a spiral downwards, or they may say it was the game that forced Munster to become a stronger, more dynamic club.

Or it may be neither and Munster will just stay as a very good European club that goes up and down like every other team .

GreenHell

Not sure where we restart from. Number one problem is clearly at tighthead, penalties cost us at least 9 points yesterday (more?) I think Timmy Ryan should be brought home at the next chance. I don't care how great props are out field, if the tighthead can't lock the scrum they shouldn't be on the field.

Following that, I've been thinking for most of the season that our phsyicallity is well behind leinster and the top French and English sides. Not talking about the pack here, but from 1 to 15 we look very light weight these days. I'm sure this could be answered through improved conditioning.

Maul. Bring back our maul, its so sad to see the state it is in today. Aging pack fair enough, but anyone who has played knows the maul is about organisation.

Monty Burnz

GreenHell wrote: »

Maul. Bring back our maul, its so sad to see the state it is in today. Aging pack fair enough, but anyone who has played knows the maul is about organisation.

Another indictment of the coaching staff there.

I know that people are saying that with a few new players we can qualify for the QFs next year - they are probably right. But 'maybe' a QF isn't good enough for Munster anymore, we're not back in 1996 (I hope!). Munster should be looking to be in contention to win the thing, and they are not going to do that by keeping 90% of an underperforming/over the hill/just not good enough squad. It's time to do the type of rebuilding that Leinster have done so successfully and that Munster should have started 3 or 4 years ago. Evolution won't cut it anymore because the squad was allowed to stagnate.

Good point above re. guys like DOC - we know exactly what he can do, he's proved himself for Munster and Ireland, but if he's holding back the development of a young Irish second row, then let the French pay his salary.

jordainius

The following players (with age turned this year) are all the wrong side of 30. (I know it's not exactly a big secret, we all know!, but I thought it would be interesting to count how many)

J.Flannery (33)
T.Buckley (31)
J.Hayes (38)
M.Horan (34)
D.O'Callaghan (32)
P.O'Connell (32)
M.O'Driscoll (33)
A.Quinlan (37)
D.Wallace (35)
D.Leamy (30)
P.Stringer (34)
R.O'Gara (34)
P.Warwick (30)
D.Howlett (33)

Warwick gone, Keatley probably coming in (you dirty thieves :mad::() I don't follow Munster (despite being a Co Limerick native) so I'd like to put the following questions to those who are up to scratch on Munster;
Do they have young forwards with sufficient potential and quality on the way through?

calvin_zola

Munster gone are they?

almighty1

jordainius wrote: »

The following players (with age turned this year) are all the wrong side of 30. (I know it's not exactly a big secret, we all know!, but I thought it would be interesting to count how many)

J.Flannery (33)
T.Buckley (31)
J.Hayes (38)
M.Horan (34)
D.O'Callaghan (32)
P.O'Connell (32)
M.O'Driscoll (33)
A.Quinlan (37)
D.Wallace (35)
D.Leamy (30)
P.Stringer (34)
R.O'Gara (34)
P.Warwick (30)
D.Howlett (33)

Warwick gone, Keatley probably coming in (you dirty thieves :mad::() I don't follow Munster (despite being a Co Limerick native) so I'd like to put the following questions to those who are up to scratch on Munster;
Do they have young forwards with sufficient potential and quality on the way through?

Good post. And with very little coming in the line of replacements. Their youth setup has alot to answer for when you compare it to Leinsters.

I disagree with people saying that only 3-4 players need to be changed, all the players mentioned above should have young players in their shadow. Im afraid this isnt the case.

Historically the Irish team consisted of Leinster backs and Munster forwards. Now Munster will be lucky to have 1 forward on the 6N starting team.

smurphy29

There is a quite a rebuilding job to do, and anyone who thinks otherwise is, I think, being naive. Also, what is this talk of 'raiding New Zealand after RWC? You can only have 5 NIQs in any case, but more pertinently - are these the same Munster fans that built a team on the basis of playing for a treasured jersey, local heroes like John Kelly and John Hayes, now looking to import a load of mercenaries on huge pay packets? That would be an awful outcome.

The time has come to move on, and move on they must. There was always going to be a time when Munster went to the well of the 06 & 08 legends once too often. Hayes, Quinlan and Wally will not be around next season. Leamy and Caughlan are not good enough, and nor is O'Callaghan. Buckley has failed, Stringer is past it, and I'm not convinced O'Leary is good enouh either.

The rebuilding must start straight away - not next season - now. If the coaching ticket has any brains at all they will use the rest of the season to try and develop maybe four or five players - not throwing fifteen U20s into sacrificial line-ups, but giving the likes of Donnch Ryan, Ian Nagle, Tommy O'Donnel and that whipsmart scrummie (Murray, is it?) a proper run of games (surrounded by a few of the old hands). I'm not convinced for moment that the youth coming through is equal to that in Leinster (or Ulster) but they will only learn with experience.

outwest

by reading tru a few websites, why are people not up in arms about how kidney is a major part to blame with musnter, tony is a good coach, but look at the team he got, ok it was a hcup winning one but it was a 22 no were near a squad, and their acadamy is quicky becoming the worst in ireland. connacht have some great young lad at the moment with griffen connely mckeon. all under 20

even conancht have had some great success at youths and are catching up to musnter in this part,

musnter are gonig to be in serious trouble in a few years, doc needs to be dropped nagle anytime iv seen him play he looks like a young o connell who could easily in a few years be a better player then him,

stephen_n

As was pointed out on the radio this morning, Leinster failed to qualify out of their group the year prior to winning the HC so I think some suggestions of a 3 year building cycle might be harsh. However I don't think the current management structure has shown any ability to rebuild and replace an aging squad. The NIQ players should be used very sparingly over the rest of the season especially Warrick (any word on Jones return?). The hunt for a quality tight head for next season is paramount to rebuilding the scrum but also the backrow needs work 3,4,7,8,12 & 15 all need to be looked at going forward. Munster will rebuild there is no doubt but it's all on the management how long this takes.

Stev_o

For what it's worth here is Munster's A squad for the B&I Cup Final against the pirates

Munster: Sean Scanlon; Danny Barnes, Tom Gleeson, Jeremy Manning, Simon Zebo; Declan Cusack, Duncan Williams; Dave Kilcoyne, Mike Sherry, Stephen Archer; Dave Foley, Ian Nagle; Billy Holland, Tommy O'Donnell, Peter O'Mahony capt.
Replacements: Sean Henry, AN Other, Dave O'Callaghan, Paddy Butler, Conor Murray, Mossie Lawlor, Ronan O'Mahony.

So it's not like their A team is consistently losing either.

smurphy29

stephen_n wrote: »

As was pointed out on the radio this morning, Leinster failed to qualify out of their group the year prior to winning the HC so I think some suggestions of a 3 year building cycle might be harsh. However I don't think the current management structure has shown any ability to rebuild and replace an aging squad. The NIQ players should be used very sparingly over the rest of the season especially Warrick (any word on Jones return?). The hunt for a quality tight head for next season is paramount to rebuilding the scrum but also the backrow needs work 3,4,7,8,12 & 15 all need to be looked at going forward. Munster will rebuild there is no doubt but it's all on the management how long this takes.

Leinster failed to qualify alright, but the seeds for the future were sewn. Kearney, Sexton and Fitzgerald had breakthrough seasons, Heaslip became a top class 8 and Cullen and Jennings added a new edge to the pack. It was a learning curve season where the groundwork for the HEC was laid, much of it in several impressive away wins en route to a Magners League. For Munster it's the end of a generation of great players who will take some replacing. It must start now.

PhatPiggins

Team I'd like to see next weekend, with rebuilding and ensuring qualification for the Amlin in mind:

1.Du Preez
2.Sherry - he's good enough, needs exposure+ honestly Flannerys finished
3.Buckley - needs game time
4.D.Ryan - if he doesn't start this game he should ask for a transfer
5.POC - again needs game time
6.Leamy - its his best position and he's still only 28
7.Wallace- seems to be hitting form needs an extended run
8.O'Mahoney- only difference between him and Dom Ryan is game time
9.C.Murray-baring injury will get 50 Irish caps, needs to be tested
10.ROG - we still want to win the game
11.Howlett - again we want to win
12.Mafi - like Wallace threatening a return to form
13.Earls - don't think its his best position but there's no one else
14.Barnes - lets see if he's got it or not
15.Murphy - No alternative till Felix comes back

I'd go for a 6-2 split on the bench which is probably indicative of Munsters problems with regards young players.

16.D.Hurley
17.Archer
18.Varley
19.Nagle
20.Holland
21.O Donnell
22.O'Leary
23.Deasy

I'd be looking to bring on Archer at half time and Hurley around the 55 mark. O'Leary and Deasy to hopefully close out the game on the 60 mark. Nagle can come on at anytime as he's easily good enough for the next level.

Like I said not wholesale changes as we still want to win the game.

CouchSmart

Sort the scrum, sort the pack and all will be well. Munster knocked out of the HC and all of a sudden the season's over, I hate this attitude. Fans need to start respecting the Magners or it will never be worth anything. Many French and English teams would choose winning their domestic league over the HC and we should follow suit. With the new play off system the Magners is definitely becoming more important. Personally I'd be delighted with the Magners or HC, both would be nice.

TheHighRoad

My team for Munster next week 1.Du Preez 2.Varley 3.Archer 4.Nagle 5.O'Connell 6.Ryan 7.Wallace 8.Leamy 9.O'Leary 10.O'Gara 11.Earls 12.Mafi 13.Murphy 14.Howlett 15.Warwick

RachaelVO

Ok, I'm gonna be straight, I'm a Leinster supporter (I know boooooo booooo)

Anyway, I do have a grudging love and respect for Munster. I just love good rugby. I particularly love when the Irish do well. Including Munster.

What the hell has happened to them? I was routing for them big time yesterday and I was disappointed in their performance, and I'm saying that as a Leinster supporter. So if a Leinster supporter is disappointed true muster supporters must but truly bulling!

What's next for Munster? Do you reckon they need more young blood? Or do they need an attitude change?

conno16

Stev_o wrote: »

For what it's worth here is Munster's A squad for the B&I Cup Final against the pirates

Munster: Jeremy Manning

enough said
strength in depth my arse

major overhaul of the province academy required today, not tomorrow
in danger of falling into amlin cup territory within 2/3 years if (1) investment in new players is not successfully executed this summer and more importantly (2) the conveyor belt is reconfigured asap

Munster are the heart and soul of irish rugby
without the province operating at the highest levels of european rugby, Ireland as an rugby entity is in a really compromised position.

PhatPiggins

TheHighRoad wrote: »

My team for Munster next week 1.Du Preez 2.Varley 3.Archer 4.Nagle 5.O'Connell 6.Ryan 7.Wallace 8.Leamy 9.O'Leary 10.O'Gara 11.Earls 12.Mafi 13.Murphy 14.Howlett 15.Warwick

Donnacha needs to lock down a position, personally I don't think he's a 6. Though I'd like to change my team to Earls on the wing.

gerardk55

I though Jeremy Manning transferred to the Newcastle Falcons this year?

CouchSmart

PhatPiggins wrote: »

Donnacha needs to lock down a position, personally I don't think he's a 6. Though I'd like to change my team to Earls on the wing.

Agree with regards Ryan at 6. I think yesterday showed he's clearly not a flanker and that experiment should be accepted as failed - I don't care if he plays there in the AIL.

Riskymove

gerardk55 wrote: »

I though Jeremy Manning transferred to the Newcastle Falcons this year?

he did

Tim Robbins

Stev_o wrote: »

For what it's worth here is Munster's A squad for the B&I Cup Final against the pirates

Munster: Sean Scanlon; Danny Barnes, Tom Gleeson, Jeremy Manning, Simon Zebo; Declan Cusack, Duncan Williams; Dave Kilcoyne, Mike Sherry, Stephen Archer; Dave Foley, Ian Nagle; Billy Holland, Tommy O'Donnell, Peter O'Mahony capt.
Replacements: Sean Henry, AN Other, Dave O'Callaghan, Paddy Butler, Conor Murray, Mossie Lawlor, Ronan O'Mahony.

So it's not like their A team is consistently losing either.

Zebo is handy. Definetly deserves a chance.

trackguy

I don't think the current state of the Munster team is down to a lack of strength in the academy. I think there is enough talent coming through at Munster - Hurley, Sherry, Nagle, Butler, F Jones, Zebo etc

The problem is only that the incredibly strong core of players that have shaped Munsters success over the last decade are in decline, as individuals and as a group.

POC - he is no longer a GREAT player anymore imo. He is a great leader but has little to offer in the loose compared with his younger years.

DOC - Again, he was never the most dynamic but he is moving on in years.

Flannery - Injuries have blighted him and he is approaching his mid-30s.

Wallace - My favourite player in Irish rugby is nearing the end of his career. He doesn't have the outstanding pace and power of old.

Hayes - He is not able for Heineken Cup Rugby anymore, let alone International. He is a disaster in the scrum. That is probably disrespectful but it's also true.

Quinlan - He is 36 (?)

O'Gara - The tactical mind and place kicking are sharp but athletically, I feel he has been in decline recently. His tackling has gotten worse and he does not possess the pace/ power to threaten defences.

Stringer - He is probably less affected by his age than others, given the game he plays but he only has a season or two left at most.


There are other players in the team who are good players but are probably not good enough to carry the mantle of those who have gone before. Would you expect Munster to go on and win a HC with Leamy as pack leader/ captain? With Tony Buckley leading the scrum?

I would also fear for the team with players like Mafi and Tuitupou. The are a liability as much and as often as they are a strength.

Back to the Academy - they are probably being harmed at the moment due to 2011 being a World Cup year. They will not get games ahead of POC/ DOC/ MOD because the 3 of them need good gametime coming up to the 6N and WC.

Hayes and Buckley need gametime so that limits front row opportunities.

I feel Munster have a tough few years rebuilding to be done. It's going to be difficult to say goodbye to such great players just as it will be difficult to bring through unproven, young players into a team and culture that expects success.

As i said before

trackguy wrote: »

Quinlan - He is 36 (?)

I think hes actually 37 lol (even older!!)

TheHighRoad

trackguy wrote: »

I don't think the current state of the Munster team is down to a lack of strength in the academy. I think there is enough talent coming through at Munster - Hurley, Sherry, Nagle, Butler, F Jones, Zebo etc

Just on those, Darragh Hurley is 25 and is well out the academy and Felix Jones came from Leinster first team squad and went straight into Munster first team squad he wasnt produced by Munster academy. I do agree though that people are being a bit harsh on Munster academy as Sherry and Nagle look to be future internationals. I think Butler and Zebo are very overrated and Peter O'Mahony is miles ahead of Butler.

Luckycharm

Munster academy has produced 1 player in the last few years Keith Earls - that is not good enough and if the Aviva opener is anything to go by they don't have much coming through.
From another Thread if Nagle was at Leinster or Ulster he would have plenty of experience by yet Munster named 4 2nd rows in yesterdays squad and he was not one of them.
Last year Ryan and ruddock were playing on the on Ireland under 20's squad both have had alot of gametime this year. Butler who played number 8 probally looked the most talented of the lot- I think he has 1 ML game.
Conway and Macken have been a good few games - Macken not so much as not really been good enough so far. Zebo on the other hand has barely got any gametime- he also proved in the AIL final he could perhaps do a job at 13- Earls is a winger yet has got very little game time.
Irish Scrum in the under 20 world cup was desent- what about Maguire would he be worth the investment?

First things first, yee all need to calm down. Nothing will happen overnight, and panicking will get you nowhere.

Munster have come to the point where they've realised that a 15 man team can no longer compete, rugby has changed (for the better imo) into a more fluid game, with more time spent moving the ball and as a result, moving to the ball for support etc.

So now what, it's simple really, they need to start entrusting younger players with positions and giving them gametime. This faith has been repaid at Leinster and Ulster over recent months, Gilroy at Ulster has something like 4 tries in 3 appearances, and he's not even 20!

Munster need to look to build a squad, not a team, 22->30 players of a similar quality, all competing for positions, preventing the team getting stale, and constantly moving forward.

Can they do that with their current crop? Yes I think so!

Its incredible how little gametime players like Zeebo, Butler, O'Callaghan have gotten this year. What would increase your appetite to improve more, playing 12 games in the A team, with no chance of a look into the senior squad, or 25 minutes in a gritty ML game in September?

These are the guys Munster need to be feeding coaching, experience and physicality, yet they seem to be wholly unused by the senior team.

Time and time again, we've seen players walk back from injury, take over their original mantle, and continue to not get past 3rd gear. Its incredibly disheartening for a 20year old, who's been sweating blood and tears trying to get to where he needs to be, to be leap frogged by an experienced guy who's under performing.

People say that the Munster academy is miles behind Leinster and Ulster's, perhaps it's true. But the main problem is that we're never ever going to find out if this regime stays.

Conservative rugby, coaches and mentalities are hampering the growth of Munster, and they're only speeding up the "rot" in Munster rugby.

Ciaran-Irl

conno16 wrote: »

Munster are the heart and soul of irish rugby
without the province operating at the highest levels of european rugby, Ireland as an rugby entity is in a really compromised position.

I 100% agree with the second statement - yes it really is in the national team's interest to have the team operating at a high level, but this "Munster is the heart and soul of Irish rugby" stuff really gets on my nerves. It is disparaging & patronising to the other provinces, and maybe one of the first things you need to do in rebuilding the province is to learn a bit of humility.

While I didn't enjoy watching Munster lose one bit, it could well prove to be the best thing that could have happened.

conno16

Ciaran-Irl wrote: »

While I didn't enjoy watching Munster lose one bit, it could well prove to be the best thing that could have happened.

please explain further...

conno16

conno16 wrote: »

please explain further...

You have to stop the rot before it gets too deep. Leaving players like Hayes on the bench as opposed to developing younger talent is a damaging tactic for the future of the team.

Winning could well have shrouded this, and allowed the same to continue.

smurphy29

Luca Eager Bungalow is completely correct. Last year, Munster finished the season making two semi-finals which doesn't sound too bad, but if you were to analyse it properly you'd have seen they played rubbish rugby all season. They finished the ML with a 50% win record and were very fortunate to get through a pretty mediocre group in the HEC, and should have lost two home games. This year it caught up with Munster, and this time there's no papering over the cracks.

As for the 'Munster are the heart and soul of Irish rugby' - just leave that sort of rubbish to Frankie Sheahan and his comrades in the meeja.

almighty1

liammur wrote: »

I agree Munster won't have and shouldn't have more than 3 players in the Irish team, it's the pack where munster are traditionally strong, and it's for this reason that I see Ireland struggle big time.

Wrong.
If perhaps Leinster werent playing great stuff then Id agree but because Leinster have upped their game so much, it should negate (ish) the failings of Munster (from an Irish perspective). Thats is, if Kidney picks players based on form.

Ciaran-Irl

conno16 wrote: »

please explain further...

Because they will be forced to rebuild, and Munster badly need to rebuild. If Munster had lost to Perpignan last year, they would have had to rebuild there and then. It would have been better for Ireland going into a world cup, but it would have been better for Munster to rebuild earlier. All that beating Perpignan did was delay the inevitable.

Giving a 2/3 year contract to ROG was the daftest thing I ever heard.

liammur

Deleted User wrote: »

You have to stop the rot before it gets too deep. Leaving players like Hayes on the bench as opposed to developing younger talent is a damaging tactic for the future of the team.

Winning could well have shrouded this, and allowed the same to continue.

Munster have been in decline since the '08 triumph. Mcgahan has really accelerated the process. But certainly it should have been obvious for all to see last season, as soon as munster met any opposition they were made to look very ordinary. And I believe this season is 1 of the weakest H cups in years, and we still couldn't get out of the group.

trackguy

Ciaran-Irl wrote: »

Because they will be forced to rebuild, and Munster badly need to rebuild. If Munster had lost to Perpignan last year, they would have had to rebuild there and then. It would have been better for Ireland going into a world cup, but it would have been better for Munster to rebuild earlier. All that beating Perpignan did was delay the inevitable.

Giving a 2/3 year contract to ROG was the daftest thing I ever heard.

ROG is the not the problem. The pack needs re-building and the NZ centres need to be shipped off. The rest of the team (added to the prospects coming through) is in good health IMO

liammur

trackguy wrote: »

ROG is the not the problem. The pack needs re-building and the NZ centres need to be shipped off. The rest of the team (added to the prospects coming through) is in good health IMO

I've always argued ROG is a very limited player.

trackguy

liammur wrote: »

I've always argued ROG is a very limited player.

It's akin to saying David Beckham was a limited player back in his United days. Sure, he didn't have great pace but he was still one of the best in the world in his position.

The same goes for ROG. A natural leader, an exceptional kicker and nerves of steel to boot.

liammur

almighty1 wrote: »

Wrong.
If perhaps Leinster werent playing great stuff then Id agree but because Leinster have upped their game so much, it should negate (ish) the failings of Munster (from an Irish perspective). Thats is, if Kidney picks players based on form.

It remains to be seen if Leinster's pack will be able to hold it's own at international level, unfortunately, i'm afraid they will be minced.

liammur

trackguy wrote: »

It's akin to saying David Beckham was a limited player back in his United days. Sure, he didn't have great pace but he was still one of the best in the world in his position.

The same goes for ROG. A natural leader, an exceptional kicker and nerves of steel to boot.

Yes, a very accurate analogy.

smurphy29

ROG isn't really the problem at all. Limited he may be in certain regards, and you could argue that a top fly half needs a running threat nowadays, but if a pack provide decent ball and the scrum half can pass it at a reasonable speed, then ROG will be more than good enough to dictate play for Munster. It's the pack that needs fixing.

liammur

smurphy29 wrote: »

ROG isn't really the problem at all. Limited he may be in certain regards, and you could argue that a top fly half needs a running threat nowadays, but if a pack provide decent ball and the scrum half can pass it at a reasonable speed, then ROG will be more than good enough to dictate play for Munster. It's the pack that needs fixing.

Agreed, but getting a good pack is a whole lot more difficult than getting a good fly half.

molloyjh

conno16 wrote: »

Munster are the heart and soul of irish rugby

Why?

I know Munster went through a few years of being a top class team that did really well in Europe and were renowned for really great supporters. But teams often do go through periods of success (as it looks like Leinster are doing at the moment). It's very easy to have great supporters when your team is doing well too - as evidenced by Leinster of late. These kind of comments are again evidence of an arrogance that I've grown very tired of from certain elements of the Munster support (in much the same way as the arrogance of certain elements of the Leinster support).

I am in no way less passionate about Leinster than a Munsterman is about the men in red. I sing and shout just as loudly at games and travel whenever I can afford it to support them. The likes of BOD and D'arcy have put every bit as much into Irish rugby as POC and ROG. So why are Munster the sole heirs to the heart and soul of Irish rugby? Personally I don't think any one province could ever make a claim like that.

liammur wrote: »

It remains to be seen if Leinster's pack will be able to hold it's own at international level, unfortunately, i'm afraid they will be minced.

Same question to Liam...why do you think they'll be minced?

I don't think they'll be the strongest pack in the world, but I think they're as good a pack as we've produced in a while. The Leinster lads have held their own against Clermont twice in as many weeks, and their pack isn't exactly light-weight. I'd be confident that the pack we're looking at for the 6Ns will be well capable.