Non-refundable deposits!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

rookie76

Just want to get some info on the policy of non-refundable deposits. On saturday evening I paid a deposit on an item, and I enquired about the possibility of a refund. I was told that the company policy was not to refund any deposits as they are holding the product for me until full payment is received and therefore are prevented from trying to sell it during that period. Fair enough as I had 5 weeks to pay in full and can understand that if I pulled out during that time, they may have lost out to other potential buyers. Foolishly I paid the deposit of €500 by credit card, but within 45 mins realised I had made a mistake. I rang the salesman straight away and was told, sorry but it is written in the terms and conditions that no refund will be given. This occurred shortly before closing time on saturday evening and I don't believe that I had stopped anyone else from buying as the item was a very, very expensive once off purchase.

My understanding is that the idea of a deposit is to compensate for any inconvenience or losses caused by cancellation, but I cannot see what inconvenience this transaction has caused as I paid 15 mins. before they closed and rang 45mins after the credit card payment was made!

I don't want to mention details, but would like to know is there anything I can do to reclaim my money.

I understand that it is my own fault, but a good salesman (who kept on about being in business for 50 yrs. and how important referrals, repeat business and satisfied customers are) made me feel that I really should not let the chance go, and i believed him without taking the time to think it over.

Please help.

Paulw

rookie76 wrote: »

I understand that it is my own fault

There's the whole thing. It is your own fault. You were told that the deposit was non-refundable, and you put down the deposit.

There is nothing you can do.

3DataModem

Ask nicely. Yeas they can keep deposit, unless it was a house you purchased.

Cabaal

http://www.consumerconnect.ie/eng/Hot_Topics/Tip_Of_The_Week/Tips_Archive/Paying_deposits.html

Paying deposits for goods

October 2007
Be careful about paying deposits in shops or as a down payment on particular services. If you change your mind about the goods or service, or the company goes out of business, you might lose your deposit.

If you intend to buy something from a shop, you might pay a deposit so that they will hold the article for you. However you should be sure that you definitely want the item, as if you change your mind, the shop might not be obliged to return the deposit to you.

Deposits are also often sought from consumers to secure services, for example booking a caterer, holiday or a long-haul flight. Again, if you change your mind, you will probably lose your deposit.


Terms and conditions
If you are paying a deposit, always check with the shop or supplier what your rights are. By paying a deposit, you are entering into a legal contract. If you change your mind, you may not be entitled to get a refund. However the retailer might let you use the equivalent amount towards something else in the shop, so make sure you know what you are entitled to.

You also need to agree when full payment of the balance will be due and make sure you are clear about when the product will be available or delivered.

Goes on to say...

Return of a deposit
Finally, in some cases you are entitled to ask for your deposit to be returned, for example if the retailer does not meet their responsibilities. For example, if you are buying a couch and pay a deposit, but delivery of the couch takes longer than agreed, you may be entitled to ask for your deposit to be returned.

Always check you rights and the terms and conditions when paying a deposit.

In short legally I can't see anything wrong with what they are doing, you changed your mind plain and simple so I'm afraid its seen as your issue. Even the likes of small claims would agree I'd say.

You might be able to get them to put the money towards another item,

dudara

You were quite clearly informed that it was non-refundable, so there is nothing that you can do. In addition, the deposit was for €500, which is a sizeable sum, so that should also have made you think twice.

rookie76

Thanks all.

I know it's my own fault but just wanted to check. Was hoping that considering the change of heart was made so fast that there might be something that can be done as the company are not out of pocket or inconvenienced in any way, and in this case credit is no good as it is not retail outlet but a purchase of approx. €30k from a private family business.

Looks like money is lost, as appealing to there better nature didn't work.

Thanks anyway

Nonoperational

Hard luck. Bad enough form but within their rights.

rameire

could you possible ask the company to move the deposit so you can purchase another product from them,
might be worth a try.

rookie76

Yeah, they will offer me credit but i was intending on spending €20k+ on a particular item, and not interested in anything else in their stock so credit is useless.
Don't want to name company or their business, but for example, if it was a second hand car, credit would restrict you only to their dealership, and they may never have another that you are willing to spend the money on. No point in spending €20,000 on something you don't really want or like, just to use up €500 credit.

Not sure if i am making any sense, but I am still trying to appeal to them so don't want to mention exact details.

Again, i know it's is my own fault but was hoping that they might reason that they potentially might make a much bigger profit margin than €500 by ensuring I remain as a potential customer who also may refer other customers to them (as this seemed to be the core of their success for 50 yrs.). In context to what these companies spend on advertising etc it seems petty considering that no inconvenience was caused to them.
As it stands i am still in the market to spend this money, but will not be dealing with them, and will cut my losses and let some one else make their profit. (Now maybe I'm being petty)
Anyway, it seems in the current climate you have to be more careful and less naive than I was, thinking that common sense and goodwill would prevail for the genuine customer over company policies and easy money.

Zab

Well, you can choose to "punish" them in that fashion, but keep in mind that they've already got €500 from you for nothing so it's not like you're getting the last laugh.

It seems that they're within their rights to not refund you. You could talk to your bank about reversing the credit card charge but assuming you're honest I'm not sure that they'll do anything for you.

I absolutely think they should have just given you back the money, but if they're choosing to be dicks about it then you're likely out of options.

Cabaal

Zab wrote: »

It seems that they're within their rights to not refund you. You could talk to your bank about reversing the credit card charge but assuming you're honest I'm not sure that they'll do anything for you.
.

Even if the bank did do a chargeback the company is legally well within their rights to then dispute and pursue this chargeback and the debt created by doing it.

The company acted in good faith that you were 100% sure you wanted the item, deposits are there to ensure people don't ask companys to keep items just on a whim and instead the customer must make a commitment.

If you change your mind after making the commitment then its affectively hard luck, the company offering credit in return is pretty reasonable given they don't have to do a thing.

slave1

"IF" taking your example of a car dealership, a credit note is issued it could be used up via service or parts, in other words can you use up a credit note indirectly...

axer

rookie76 wrote: »

Anyway, it seems in the current climate you have to be more careful and less naive than I was, thinking that common sense and goodwill would prevail for the genuine customer over company policies and easy money.

They have been very acommodating to you by offering a credit not for the deposit amount. They could have refused to do that but yet you think they are in the wrong? You are 10000% in the wrong and the company are 0% in the wrong so you have no reason to give out about this company in any way.

punchdrunk

approach the manager,and ask if possible you could get a partial refund,maybe €400 back,but they can keep the €100 for their admin costs/time wasting

it'd be better than nothing

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

punchdrunk wrote: »

approach the manager,and ask if possible you could get a partial refund,maybe €400 back,but they can keep the €100 for their admin costs/time wasting

it'd be better than nothing

Better chance, if any, of doing it the other way round. Try for €100 back.

Seriously though. €500 deposit on a €20,000 item was light. And you were in the wrong.

Zab

Cabaal wrote: »

Even if the bank did do a chargeback the company is legally well within their rights to then dispute and pursue this chargeback and the debt created by doing it.

The company acted in good faith that you were 100% sure you wanted the item, deposits are there to ensure people don't ask companys to keep items just on a whim and instead the customer must make a commitment.

If you change your mind after making the commitment then its affectively hard luck, the company offering credit in return is pretty reasonable given they don't have to do a thing.

I agree on their rights(never disagreed), but their only act of "good faith" so far was to take the €500. With regards to "pretty reasonable", it all depends on how you choose to run your business. You can either rely on selling your wares at an agreed but profitable price with a deposit covering missed sales/customization costs in case of cancellation, or you can snag the first sucker to come along and keep the deposit when there was no chance of missed sales or opportunity lost at all. The law says both are legal, it doesn't say which you have to choose.

Paulw

Zab wrote: »

I agree on their rights(never disagreed),

You can either rely on selling your wares at an agreed but profitable price with a deposit covering missed sales/customization costs in case of cancellation, or you can snag the first sucker to come along and keep the deposit when there was no chance of missed sales or opportunity lost at all. The law says both are legal, it doesn't say which you have to choose.

Lucky that this copy work the 1st way so.

They clearly explained that the deposit was non-refundable, and offered a credit note when the OP changed his mind, which they had no obligation to do.

The company have been nice to the OP, but the OP made the mistake, and it's his loss.

Zab

Paulw wrote: »

Lucky that this copy work the 1st way so.

I'd argue that they're somewhere in between the two. There's no doubt it's OP that has made the mistake here, I just don't think it should be a €500 mistake due to the time frame involved. The company disagrees with me.

Paulw

Zab wrote: »

There's no doubt it's OP that has made the mistake here

So glad that we all agree that the OP made the mistake.

The company was up-front and honest. They made it clear that the deposit was non-refundable.

The OP agreed to the terms and paid the deposit.

Later, he changed his mind.

He has no way of knowing if the company had already placed the order with their suppliers (for components, parts, or for the whole product).

If we're to believe it was for a car, it's possible that the order had already been sent to their supplier, and they will eventually have this specific vehicle in their courtyard for sale. This deposit is to cover their initial costs.

I can't see anything at all wrong with what the company did. They didn't hide any facts, and were good enough to offer a credit note.

Zab

Look, if you think I'm trying to argue that they're the root of all evil then I'm misstating myself. It's pure speculation to say that the company made a financial commitment in the hour after the deposit was made. The greater likelihood is that nothing at all happened, especially seeing as the company didn't mention anything like that when he tried for a refund.

We agree on the facts. We agree on whose side a court is likely to come down on.

You believe that the company is being more than generous to offer him anything beyond what a court would give him.

I believe that the company should weigh up the matter at hand and offer him something back directly based on the financial damage and lost time his mistake has caused.

I don't think there's anything more to be said. Agreed?

rookie76

Thamks everyone,

I know who's is legally right and wrong, hence my utter frustration with myself, and also why I have not mention the company or any specific details.
Just thought that holding an item for 15mins. (as deposit was paid just before closing) was no major inconvenience to them and that maybe they could bend the rules a little.

Anyway seems not to be but thanks for all comments. Hope others will learn from my mistake.

mrsbyrne

same applies to deposits on rental properties. this causes so much heartache you just wouldnt believe....

Fighting Irish

rookie76 wrote: »

Just want to get some info on the policy of non-refundable deposits. On saturday evening I paid a deposit on an item, and I enquired about the possibility of a refund. I was told that the company policy was not to refund any deposits as they are holding the product for me until full payment is received and therefore are prevented from trying to sell it during that period. Fair enough as I had 5 weeks to pay in full and can understand that if I pulled out during that time, they may have lost out to other potential buyers. Foolishly I paid the deposit of €500 by credit card, but within 45 mins realised I had made a mistake. I rang the salesman straight away and was told, sorry but it is written in the terms and conditions that no refund will be given. This occurred shortly before closing time on saturday evening and I don't believe that I had stopped anyone else from buying as the item was a very, very expensive once off purchase.

My understanding is that the idea of a deposit is to compensate for any inconvenience or losses caused by cancellation, but I cannot see what inconvenience this transaction has caused as I paid 15 mins. before they closed and rang 45mins after the credit card payment was made!

I don't want to mention details, but would like to know is there anything I can do to reclaim my money.

I understand that it is my own fault, but a good salesman (who kept on about being in business for 50 yrs. and how important referrals, repeat business and satisfied customers are) made me feel that I really should not let the chance go, and i believed him without taking the time to think it over.

Please help.

if he gave you the $ back you wouldn't be either of these so he wasn't lying

rookie76

If he had refunded me, I would have greatly appreciated it and respected him for that and would have no problem doing business with him, as i am still in the market and looking to buy.

Paulw

rookie76 wrote: »

If he had refunded me, I would have greatly appreciated it and respected him for that and would have no problem doing business with him, as i am still in the market and looking to buy.

But, if you're still in the market to buy, why not use their offer of a credit note, and still shop with them? Otherwise, you're just throwing away your money.

rookie76

They don't have what i'm looking for, and may never have as it is a second-hand/used specific item I am looking to buy. Sorry for being so vague but I really don't want to divulge exact details or indirectly identify the company involved.
Using my previous example of a car. say I want a black 07 audi a4 1.9diesel, with full leather, alloys, a/c etc. and my deposit was on a basic model 1.6 petrol. I could be waiting forever for them to stock the one I want. Not going to buy something else just to use credit.

It is not a car, and service or other parts are not an option.

Probably just confused you more!!!

Fey!

OP; you had promised to give this person e30,000 of business, which is not to be sniffed at. Then you pull the rug out from under them by changing your mind. That's a huge drop in what the business sees as their income.

You've already stated on this thread that you won't buy off them even if they give you the deposit back. With this in mind, why would they give you the money back.

If you went to your credit card company to get them to reverse the transaction, the business could quite reasonably go after you in court for the money, as that would be a fraudulent act. They could possibly go for the full amount of the money instead of just the deposit, too.

The business has been reasonable in offering you a credit for their business. As others have pointed out, they didn't have to do that.

Someone mentioned property and rental accomodation; with property the deposit is refundable, and with rental accomodation the deposit is also refundable unless there is damage to the property or bills/rent left unpaid. Not the same as retail.

It sounds as if you put a deposit on a piece of jewellery or art (basing this on second hand goods at that value). If this is the case, the shop could possibly source what you want.

mrsbyrne

Fey! wrote: »

OP; you had promised to give this person e30,000 of business, which is not to be sniffed at. Then you pull the rug out from under them by changing your mind. That's a huge drop in what the business sees as their income.

You've already stated on this thread that you won't buy off them even if they give you the deposit back. With this in mind, why would they give you the money back.

If you went to your credit card company to get them to reverse the transaction, the business could quite reasonably go after you in court for the money, as that would be a fraudulent act. They could possibly go for the full amount of the money instead of just the deposit, too.

The business has been reasonable in offering you a credit for their business. As others have pointed out, they didn't have to do that.

Someone mentioned property and rental accomodation; with property the deposit is refundable, and with rental accomodation the deposit is also refundable unless there is damage to the property or bills/rent left unpaid. Not the same as retail.

It sounds as if you put a deposit on a piece of jewellery or art (basing this on second hand goods at that value). If this is the case, the shop could possibly source what you want.

sorry i should have clarified what i meant. if you, a tenant, agree to rent a property and give the landlord a deposit and subsequently change your mind you are not entitled to your deposit back.

rookie76

The law is to compensate for any losses or inconvenience caused by cancellation, neither of which apply.
I know where both sides stand legally, but the law does not oblige the company to enforce their poicies, but to use them at their discretion to protect their business.
What I am talking about, considering the time frame involved in the transaction, is goodwill, common decency and a bit of understanding.

axer

rookie76 wrote: »

The law is to compensate for any losses or inconvenience caused by cancellation, neither of which apply.
I know where both sides stand legally, but the law does not oblige the company to enforce their poicies, but to use them at their discretion to protect their business.
What I am talking about, considering the time frame involved in the transaction, is goodwill, common decency and a bit of understanding.

Its about contract law - nothing more. A contract was formed on the basis that the deposit was non-refundable. It is not for any losses per se etc - it was the terms of the contract that was agreed.

Zab

He obviously meant the term rather than the law in his first sentence.

Fey!

rookie76 wrote: »

What I am talking about, considering the time frame involved in the transaction, is goodwill, common decency and a bit of understanding.

You got goodwill and common decency in them offering you a credit note.

Where is your goodwill and common decency toward them. After all, you've already said that you'd probably never be buying off them again anyway, even before getting into the lack of refund.

rookie76

Thanks to all for your honest comments.

I realise that I may have sounded cheeky in my expectation that I should get a refund. Not everyone agreed with this view.
This discussion has let me see it from the company's point of view, and I should have been more understanding to their situation and that credit was a fair offer as they did not have to offer anything.
I emailed the salesman explaining that I appreciated their efforts to accomodate me with an offer of credit, and apologised for not honouring the contract I had agreed to.

To their upmost credit we received a letter and full refund today, staing that they would hope we would be able to do business in the future.
This is proof that there are still good, decent people out there.

I am embarrassed that I did not fully apreciate their side of things and was just feeling sorry for myself and wanted my money back, even though it was my mistake in the first place.

Anyway, I have used this forum to vent my frustrations, but never argued with the company over their original stance, and did not identify their business here.
This I am very glad of, as contrary to what I may have said earlier, I would have no problem doing business with them or recommending them, as I now know that the are an honourable, honest company which will look after there customers rather than hide behind policies and laws.
I am very grateful to have got my money back, and I apologise to all of you for being a a bit of a hypocrite.