Munster - Amlin Cup???

corkandproud

A well informed fried told me that if Munster win next week they go into the Amlin (like the Champions League-Europa League qualification).

I haven't heard of this, but to be honest I probably didn't pay too much attention.

Anyone know if this is right?

elspecia

Yes all 6 second place teams from the pool stages from the HC that don't make the quater finals of the HC go into the Amlin Cup

funky penguin

It definitely gives them something to play for next week.

TheHighRoad

elspecia wrote: »

Yes all 6 second place teams from the pool stages from the HC that don't make the quater finals of the HC go into the Amlin Cup

Munster should go all out to win as it would allow Connact to be in the HC next year if they won.

funky penguin

Or maybe because they'd want to win for themselves?

TheHighRoad

funky penguin wrote: »

Or maybe because they'd want to win for themselves?

I think that goes without saying....

Hermy

TheHighRoad wrote: »

Munster should go all out to win as it would allow Connact to be in the HC next year if they won.

How would that work?

TheHighRoad

Hermy wrote: »

How would that work?

Winner of Amlin qualifies for Heineken Cup. Ireland is automatically entitled to three places for Heineken Cup anyway so all 4 teams will be deemed to have qualified.

porterbelly

elspecia wrote: »

Yes all 6 second place teams from the pool stages from the HC that don't make the quater finals of the HC go into the Amlin Cup

No

The 2 best runners up in the Heineken Cup groups, go into the Heineken Cup quarters, the next 3 best runners up go into the Challenge Cup quarters.

As a Connacht fan, I'm praying that Munster give the Amlin their best shot, because they have every chance of winning it and getting us into the Heineken Cup. I hope they don't think it's beneath them, because if so, Munster would go down in my estimation. At the end of the day, it's still Europe, and it's more glamourous than the Magners League, and as well as this there's some big games out there, like an away trip to Stade Francais or Harlequins.

PhatPiggins

Do Connacht qualify if/when Leinster win the HC?

conf101

PhatPiggins wrote: »

Do Connacht qualify if/when Leinster win the HC?

Yup!

BBMcQ

conf101 wrote: »

Yup!

They didn't qualify when we won in 2009!

Podge_irl

stuartmchugh wrote: »

They didn't qualify when we won in 2009!

Change of qualification rules. The winner of the HEC/Amlin get an automatic qualification from 2010 onwards.

PhatPiggins

conf101 wrote: »

Yup!

Cool, if the final was been played tomorrow I have Leinster as winners.

Honest answer Connacht men, if Connacht qualify for the HC and get a group like Clermont,Ospreys,Racing which they can as a 4th seed, and they get whipped every game do you think it'll benefit the team?(I think it will BTW)

Not having a pop, just curious.

Hermy

TheHighRoad wrote: »

Munster should go all out to win as it would allow Connact to be in the HC next year if they won.

Sorry - I read this to mean if Munster win Amlin then Connaght qualify for HC.
That's not what you meant - was it?:o

pajunior

PhatPiggins wrote: »

Cool, if the final was been played tomorrow I have Leinster as winners.

Honest answer Connacht men, if Connacht qualify for the HC and get a group like Clermont,Ospreys,Racing which they can as a 4th seed, and they get whipped every game do you think it'll benefit the team?(I think it will BTW)

Not having a pop, just curious.

Connacht need to make the step up eventually and any group in the HC can only help. Besides it will give the team and the brand a lot of media exposure, the first year could be rough but if they can retain a HC place by themselves or one of the other Irish teams winning a tournament then it could get the ball rolling on a lot of fronts

Hopefully it happens if Munster get five points against Irish then they are in the CC and I would say that they would be close to favourites.

Podge_irl

Hermy wrote: »

Sorry - I read this to mean if Munster win Amlin then Connaght qualify for HC.
That's not what you meant - was it?:o

That's correct. If Munster win the Amlin then they qualify for the HEC by right, and the IRFU can nominate three other teams - so Connacht will be in the HEC (a similar story exists if Leinster win the HEC. If they both win I have no idea what happens).

funky penguin

TheHighRoad wrote: »

I think that goes without saying....

Actually looking at that again, apologies it was quite bitchy. I just don't like the idea that Munster should go for the Amlin purely to do Connacht a favour.

corkandproud

So if Leinster win the HEC and Munster win the ACC, does that mean that an AIL team can get into the HEC and another AIL team can compete in the ACC?

I can't see Ireland getting all four professional units into the HEC, regardless of the rules. Surely that was brought in for English and French clubs, not Ireland, Scotland, Wales or Italy.

porterbelly

PhatPiggins wrote: »

Cool, if the final was been played tomorrow I have Leinster as winners.

Honest answer Connacht men, if Connacht qualify for the HC and get a group like Clermont,Ospreys,Racing which they can as a 4th seed, and they get whipped every game do you think it'll benefit the team?(I think it will BTW)

Not having a pop, just curious.

Of course Connnacht would be up against it, that goes without saying, but there'd be more investment from the IRFU and private investment I'd imagine. As well as this more higher quality fringe players would be more willing to take the jump to Connacht because they get exposure in the Heineken Cup. We'd be able to attract a better quality of overseas players as well.

We aren't going to compete it or anything, Christ no, but it would be great for us becuase it would increase our fan base, and there'd be a serious buzz around Galway come game week and the Sportsground would be rocking come match day. I can't explain the atmosphere at the Toulon game last season, it was immense and it would be great if we got that back again and got over 7,000 into the Sportsground, with temporary seating, or even more with a new stand for which plans are in place. Gradually we'd get more competitve as well.

We've shown we're no mugs in European competition over the years with lots of Knockout appearances in the Challenge Cup. We gave Toulon a serious game last season, we beat Bourgoin, did the double over Montpellier last season, Dax the previous season, Bayonne this season (The same Bayonne that have done the double over Toulon)

Monty Burnz

PhatPiggins wrote: »

Cool, if the final was been played tomorrow I have Leinster as winners.

It would have to be some sort of 'royal rumble' format as there are 10 or so other teams still in contention... :pac:

Hermy

Podge_irl wrote: »

That's correct. If Munster win the Amlin then they qualify for the HEC by right, and the IRFU can nominate three other teams - so Connacht will be in the HEC (a similar story exists if Leinster win the HEC. If they both win I have no idea what happens).

Ah, the penny's dropped.
God I'm slow today.:p
Thanks Podge.

Guy:Incognito

Podge_irl wrote: »

(a similar story exists if Leinster win the HEC. If they both win I have no idea what happens).

I vote every club in the country right down to the bottom end of Junior rugby gets put in a pot and one gets pulled out to be allowed entry to the HEC

P_1

corkandproud wrote: »

So if Leinster win the HEC and Munster win the ACC, does that mean that an AIL team can get into the HEC and another AIL team can compete in the ACC?

I can't see Ireland getting all four professional units into the HEC, regardless of the rules. Surely that was brought in for English and French clubs, not Ireland, Scotland, Wales or Italy.

Cardiff Blues won the ACC last year, thats how the Dragons qualified for the HEC this year.

tolosenc

OK - here's what you need to know.

The Amlin Cup is the second tier of international club rugby in Europe. It is contested anually by top league teams who do not make it to the Heineken Cup, as well as teams from Italy, Spain and Romania.

In it, there are 5 pools of 4 teams, the winner of each going into the QFs. The best 4 are seeded at home for that round. The other group winner, along with the 3rd, 4th and 5th best runners up in the Heineken Cup pool stages make up the away contingent for the QFs.

Thus, the worst finishing 2nd place team, along with all 3rd and 4th place finishers in the Heineken Cup are out of all European Competitions for this season.

As for qualification for next year's tournament: The winners of both the Amlin and the Heineken are awarded berths in the Heineken Cup (HC winners into tier 1 automatically), then national berths for the Heineken are awarded as follows: Ireland 3; Wales 3; Scotland 2; Italy 2; England 6; France 6 (all exclusive of any champion).

In terms of this year, for Munster to qualify for the Amlin:
Munster will be unable to overtake the runners up of pools 4 and 5 as there already exists a 6 point gap. But, these two are the likely 7th and 8th teams for the HCQF. After that, Wasps in Pool 6 host Toulouse next weekend with the French outfit already qualified, and virtually assured of a home QF. Wasps have 15 points (4 more than Munster). In pool 2 Clermont have 14 points (3 more than Munster) and travel to London to play Sarries. In pool 1, Castres (11pts), Cardiff(10pts) and Edinburgh(7pts) can all still finish in the runners-up spot. Edinburgh hosts Cardiff and Castres will welcome Northampton. This pool's final matchday occurs immediately after the final matches in Munster's pool (Pool 3). In pool 3, Munster (11pts) host London Irish (9pts), while Ospreys(10pts) host pool winners Toulon.

Therefore, Munster must win to ensure second spot in the pool, and must also get a BP victory if Castres get one. If Munster get the BP, they will win the head to head with any other team still in contention, barring Castres, who would need to score 6 more tries than Munster to oust them.

Basically, BP win makes Amlin spot a certainty - anything else and it's anyone's guess.

Podge_irl

corkandproud wrote: »

So if Leinster win the HEC and Munster win the ACC, does that mean that an AIL team can get into the HEC and another AIL team can compete in the ACC?

No. Generally speaking only top tier professional teams can compete in European competition. I assume the theoretical fifth place would go to one of France/England.

corkandproud wrote: »

I can't see Ireland getting all four professional units into the HEC, regardless of the rules. Surely that was brought in for English and French clubs, not Ireland, Scotland, Wales or Italy.

The WRU had four teams in the HEC this year because the Blues won the Challenge Cup last year.

[Jackass]

corkandproud wrote: »

So if Leinster win the HEC and Munster win the ACC, does that mean that an AIL team can get into the HEC and another AIL team can compete in the ACC?

I can't see Ireland getting all four professional units into the HEC, regardless of the rules. Surely that was brought in for English and French clubs, not Ireland, Scotland, Wales or Italy.

No.

The Heineken Cup and Amlin Challenge Cup are for professional outfits only, from three leagues. The Magners League, The Top 14 and the Aviva Premiership.

So, for the Top 14 and the Aviva Premiership, the top six teams in the league all qualify for the Heineken Cup each season, and the bottom five (iirc) qualify for the Amlin Challenge Cup.

Should a Top 14 team or a Aviva Premiership team win either or both competitions then the additional European places awarded from these competitions go to the next highest rank league team that did not qualify for the Heineke Cup. (So if two Aviva Premisership teams won the Heineken Cup and Amlin Cup, and these teams have already qualified through their league position, then 7th & 8th in the Aviva Premiership would qualify for the Heineken Cup as a result of their league conterparts winning the trophies. If the winner of the Amlin Cup finsihes 10th in the Aviva Premiership then they will qualify for the Heineken Cup, as they didn't qualify from the league, but the rest of the spots will be awarded based on league position after that).

The Magners League is different though. As it is a multi-national league, European qualification is based on Nation allocaions as apposed to directly from league positions, so the top 3 Magners teams from Ireland and Wales go into the Heineken Cup, and both the Scottish and Italian teams qualify, regardless of league position. The lowest ranked Welsh and Irish team go into the Amlin Challenge Cup.

However, if a Irish or Welsh union team win a European Trophy, either the Heineken Cup or Amlin Challenge Cup, then the 4th team from their union (regardless of league placing) gets the additional Heineken Cup spot awarded from winning the competition. If Magners teams win both competitions, then everyone in the Magners League qualifies for the Heineken Cup, as there are ten automatic spots (3 Irish, 3 Welsh, 2 Italian, 2 Scottish) and for example an Irish team wins the Heineken Cup, then a 4th place is awarded to the Irish Union, meaning all four pro teams go into Heineken Cup, and if an Irish team then wins the Amlin, all four Irish teams have already qualified, so the next Heineken Cup spot awarded goes to the league, as there are no Irish teams left to award it to, which means there are 12 spots from the Magners League from 12 teams.

To put it simply, and relevant to Irish teams, the top three placed Magners League placed teams from Ireland go into the Heineken Cup and the fourth placed team goes into the Amlin Cup. If an Irish team wins the Heineken Cup OR Amlin Cup (regardless of which team it is) all four Irish teams go into the Heineken Cup. If Magners League teams (regardless of which union they are from) win BOTH European competitions, then all four Irish teams go into the Heineken Cup also.

So, as it stands, If Leinster win the Heineken Cup, OR if Munster win the Amlin Challenge Cup, Connacht will be in the Heineken Cup next season.

This wil also be the case if neither Leinster or Munster win either competition, but BOTH competitions are won by ANY OTHER Magners League teams, then Connacht will qualify also.

Podge_irl

[Jackass] wrote: »

No.

The Heineken Cup and Amlin Challenge Cup are for professional outfits only, from three leagues. The Magners League, The Top 14 and the Aviva Premiership.

The ACC has Romanian and Spanish teams as well.

tolosenc

Aww, so no Old Belvedere in the Heino? :P

Digifriendly

[Jackass] wrote: »

So, as it stands, If Leinster win the Heineken Cup, OR if Munster win the Amlin Challenge Cup, Connacht will be in the Heineken Cup next season.

This wil also be the case if neither Leinster or Munster win either competition, but BOTH competitions are won by ANY OTHER Magners League teams, then Connacht will qualify also.

So if e.g. Ospreys or Scarlets qualify for the Amlin and win it then Connacht will be in the HC?

CIARAN_BOYLE

Digifriendly wrote: »

So if e.g. Ospreys or Scarlets qualify for the Amlin and win it then Connacht will be in the HC?

If Scarlets reach the win the HEC, while ospreys go into the Amlin Challenge Cup and win it then Connacht will be in the HC

P_1

Digifriendly wrote: »

So if e.g. Ospreys or Scarlets qualify for the Amlin and win it then Connacht will be in the HC?

No. If both the HEC and ACC were won by teams in the ML, then Connacht would qualify for the HEC.

mick867

Podge_irl wrote: »

The ACC has Romanian and Spanish teams as well.

Thanks lads - that explains a lot

On the Friday night in Cardiff we get to see Munster win the Amilin

on the Saturday we get to see Leinster win the HC.

On an aisde and I am sorry its off topic-

Who own Leinster and Munster?

Monty Burnz

mick867 wrote: »

Who own Leinster and Munster?

I do. Who's asking?

[Jackass]

Digifriendly wrote: »

So if e.g. Ospreys or Scarlets qualify for the Amlin and win it then Connacht will be in the HC?

Only if another Magners team wins the Heineken Cup, like Cardiff for example (as if Ospreys / Scarlets win the Amlin, a 4th Heineken spot is awarded to the Welsh union, and if Cardiff won the Heineken, all Welsh teams would already have a Heineken Cup spot, so the extra spot would go to the only remaining Magners team that didn't qualify, which would be Connacht.)

This year is a bad example though, as Leinster and Ulster are the only remaining Magners teams left in the Heineken Cup, so if either of them win it, Connacht will qualify for the Heineken Cup regardless of what happens in the Amlin, as Ireland will get a 4th spot.

Likewise, if Munster win the Amlin, Connacht will qualify regardless of what happens in the Heineken Cup, as an Irish team winning either competition gets us a 4th Heineken Cup spot.

The only way other unions can help us is if no Irish team wins a European competition, but BOTH competitions are won by other Magners League teams, (such as Ospreys winning the Heineken Cup and Edinburgh winning the Amlin for example - they don't have to be from the same union, just both Magners teams) then all Magners teams (and thus all Irish teams) would qualify for the Heineken Cup.

For Connacht though, it looks like two of the favourite teams in the Heineken Cup and Amlin Cup will both be Irish, so if either win, Connacht will be playing Heineken Cup rugby next season! So get behind Leinster, Ulster & Munster in Europe!!

CIARAN_BOYLE

mick867 wrote: »

Who own Leinster and Munster?

Leinster and Munster are subsidiary branches of the IRFU AFAIK

JustinDee

mick867 wrote: »

On an aisde and I am sorry its off topic-

Who own Leinster and Munster?

They are two of the four provincial branches of the IRFU.

castie

[Jackass] wrote: »

Only if another Magners team wins the Heineken Cup, like Cardiff for example (as if Ospreys / Scarlets win the Amlin, a 4th Heineken spot is awarded to the Welsh union, and if Cardiff won the Heineken, all Welsh teams would already have a Heineken Cup spot, so the extra spot would go to the only remaining Magners team that didn't qualify, which would be Connacht.)

This year is a bad example though, as Leinster and Ulster are the only remaining Magners teams left in the Heineken Cup, so if either of them win it, Connacht will qualify for the Heineken Cup regardless of what happens in the Amlin, as Ireland will get a 4th spot.

Likewise, if Munster win the Amlin, Connacht will qualify regardless of what happens in the Heineken Cup, as an Irish team winning either competition gets us a 4th Heineken Cup spot.

The only way other unions can help us is if no Irish team wins a European competition, but BOTH competitions are won by other Magners League teams, (such as Ospreys winning the Heineken Cup and Edinburgh winning the Amlin for example - they don't have to be from the same union, just both Magners teams) then all Magners teams (and thus all Irish teams) would qualify for the Heineken Cup.

For Connacht though, it looks like two of the favourite teams in the Heineken Cup and Amlin Cup will both be Irish, so if either win, Connacht will be playing Heineken Cup rugby next season! So get behind Leinster, Ulster & Munster in Europe!!

England and France are capped at seven Heineken Cup places each. If either country produces the winners of both European cups, the last place will be filled by the highest ERC-ranked club not of that nation to not have otherwise qualified.

The same would happen if two other Magners teams won it.
It is not the next best team from that league.

mick867

JustinDee wrote: »

They are two of the four provincial branches of the IRFU.

Thanks lads,

thomond2006

No disrespect to the Amlin Cup but that thread title just makes me depressed.

LuckyGent88

thomond2006 wrote: »

No disrespect to the Amlin Cup but that thread title just makes me depressed.

SO depressing but unfortuntly, all great things come to an end

JustinDee

thomond2006 wrote: »

No disrespect to the Amlin Cup but that thread title just makes me depressed.

Look at it this way, there is an Irish team is competing for the Amlin Cup, Heineken Cup, Magners League and Six Nations Championship (and Triple Crown).
To win all of them would be one hell of a feat in the lead up to the RWC warm-ups.
Yes, some of the doubters here would no doubt rubbish the notion but nothing of a kind is impossible.

pajunior

We're all being a bit harsh on Ulster here. They are still in the HC.

its_phil

JustinDee wrote: »

Look at it this way, there is an Irish team is competing for the Amlin Cup, Heineken Cup, Magners League and Six Nations Championship (and Triple Crown).

That would be very impressive...Ireland with the 6N,Munster with the Amlin,Connacht with the Magners and Ulster with the Heineken....;)

But seriously that doesn't seem impossible.Really hope that Munster fans don't look down on this competition too much,you only need to look at last years final to see how competitive this competition is now.

RMD

JustinDee wrote: »

Look at it this way, there is an Irish team is competing for the Amlin Cup, Heineken Cup, Magners League and Six Nations Championship (and Triple Crown).
To win all of them would be one hell of a feat in the lead up to the RWC warm-ups.
Yes, some of the doubters here would no doubt rubbish the notion but nothing of a kind is impossible.

It is possible but don't be putting Leinster as out and out favorites for the Heineken cup at this stage. Toulouse are still an amazing side and it would be a very close game, other than that to be quite honest I feel we could beat every other team in the competition. We have the potential to win the 6 nations but whether we will is another question, we should win the Triple Crown but remember upsets do happen such as Scotland last year. I wouldn't be surprised if it was an Irish final in the magners league, Leinster are in good form in the league and so are Munster, both should be in the 1/2 position come end of the season. Munster are completely capable of winning the Amlin no doubt about that, whether they will though is another thing.

Could be another great year for Irish Rugby. Who knows, hopefully it can be 08/09 all over again but this time the Amlin as well.

CouchSmart

Hopefully Munster get into the Amlin next week. It'd be good to see how they do and allow for some experimentation perhaps. They'd be serious contenders to do the double as well, even if it's the lesser double as such.

PhatPiggins

CouchSmart wrote: »

Hopefully Munster get into the Amlin next week. It'd be good to see how they do and allow for some experimentation perhaps. They'd be serious contenders to do the double as well, even if it's the lesser double as such.

Absolutely, they can win it and still give some of the likes of Nagle/Murray/O'Mahony/Sherry game time. Problem is that Kidney will want O'Leary/Wallace/Ryan/POC playing every game

thomond2006

PhatPiggins wrote: »

Absolutely, they can win it and still give some of the likes of Nagle/Murray/O'Mahony/Sherry game time. Problem is that Kidney will want O'Leary/Wallace/Ryan/POC playing every game

I will only take an Amlin victory seriously if we, as you say, use young players to achieve it. Not quite a B&I cup lineup but something along those lines.

In a way this is good news for Connacht. We have a far greater chance of winning the Amlin than the Heineken.

It would be great to see a mixture of youth and experience win the comp, with a lineup along the lines of:
Hurley/Ryan, Varley, Borlase/Archer, Nagle, Holland, Coughlan/TOD, POM, Butler/Leamy;
Murray/Williams, Warwick/Deasy, Hurley, Deasy/J Murphy, Earls/Barnes, Zebo?, Jones (will be back by April I think)/Deasy

(Lots of ifs because players could be rotated)

and use the oldies for the Magners. Wouldn't happen in a month of sundays though.

castie

thomond2006 wrote: »

I will only take an Amlin victory seriously if we, as you say, use young players to achieve it. Not quite a B&I cup lineup but something along those lines.

In a way this is good news for Connacht. We have a far greater chance of winning the Amlin than the Heineken.

It would be great to see a mixture of youth and experience win the comp, with a lineup along the lines of:
Hurley/Ryan, Varley, Borlase/Archer, Nagle, Holland, Coughlan/TOD, POM, Butler/Leamy;
Murray/Williams, Warwick/Deasy, Hurley, Deasy/J Murphy, Earls/Barnes, Zebo?, Jones (will be back by April I think)

(Lots of ifs because players could be rotated)

and use the oldies for the Magners. Wouldn't happen in a month of sundays though.

If were blooding people what would the point be in having Warwick at 10 though?

I know its good news for Connaught if Munster/Leinster do win a cup but what position will they be in after losing Cronin,Keatley, Carr and possibly more?

thomond2006

castie wrote: »

If were blooding people what would the point be in having Warwick at 10 though?

Re-read my post. I did say most positions could be rotated. In the case of Warwick, you can put Deasy at either 10/12/15.

You can't play a B&I Cup team in the Amlin, you have to find a balance between developing young players and putting experienced heads in there.

porterbelly

castie wrote: »

If were blooding people what would the point be in having Warwick at 10 though?

I know its good news for Connaught if Munster/Leinster do win a cup but what position will they be in after losing Cronin,Keatley, Carr and possibly more?

George Naoupu is coming back who was a huge player for us last season. NOC and McCrea are coming as well which is nothing to shout about. We're sure to get more investment if we get Heineken Cup and it will be easier to sell Connacht to fringe players at other provinces and overseas players when we'll be competing in the Heineken.

Carr and Cronin haven't signed yet I believe so we won't give up on them just yet, Carr especially as I've heard Leinster have lost interest in him. While it's a very slim chance, here's hoping!