Specialist players who can't do their job

Monty Burnz

I am completely baffled by something you see a lot of in the Irish game: as per the title, players not being able to do the basic requirements of their position.

For example, Rory Best: a hooker who can't throw into the lineout. Tony Buckley, John Hayes: props who can't scrummage.

What the hell is that all about? Lineout and scrum possession are critical to a team that wants to compete. I don't care if Tony Buckley is above average around the park - he'd have to be twice the player that Richie McCaw is around the park to compensate for being so inept in the scrum.

Clearly, if a player can only do their basic job and are hopeless in the loose, that's no good either, but given a choice of someone who is competent around the park and very good at their specialism, I'll take that every time over somebody who is good around the park and incompetent at their specialism. Threre's no way that you can compensate around the park for not being able to do your basic job well.

Thoughts?

ambid

Monty Burnz wrote: »

I am completely baffled by something you see a lot of in the Irish game: as per the title, players not being able to do the basic requirements of their position.

For example, Rory Best: a hooker who can't throw into the lineout. Tony Buckley, John Hayes: props who can't scrummage.

What the hell is that all about? Lineout and scrum possession are critical to a team that wants to compete. I don't care if Tony Buckley is above average around the park - he'd have to be twice the player that Richie McCaw is around the park to compensate for being so inept in the scrum.

Clearly, if a player can only do their basic job and are hopeless in the loose, that's no good either, but given a choice of someone who is competent around the park and very good at their specialism, I'll take that every time over somebody who is good around the park and incompetent at their specialism. Threre's no way that you can compensate around the park for not being able to do your basic job well.

Thoughts?

Absoluteky agree. It's like hiring a van driver who can't drive! Or a Taoiseach who can't run a country (oh hang on, we've done that too haven't we?!).

Actually sorry for bringing politics into it.

CIARAN_BOYLE

I disagree with you about Best throwing into the lineout. He isn't great at it but he isn't bad, I'd rate him 7/10 in the lineout.

Also while the hooker seems to be invisible in the scrum a lot of pundits comment on Best shoring up the scrum while he is on. Not sure how accurate that is.

That said I completly agree with you regarding Hayes and Buckley.

mikedragon32

Newland. Can't do the job he was brought in to do, or anything around the paddock.

wixfjord

mikedragon32 wrote: »

Newland. Can't do the job he was brought in to do, or anything around the paddock.

Has been good in his last two games, very good yesterday. Give him a chance, Stan Wright was the same and look how he turned out..

mikedragon32

mikedragon32 wrote: »

Newland. Can't do the job he was brought in to do, or anything around the paddock.

Fairly sure he's just there to lean on things. Big oaf of a mercenary. But he never pretends to be otherwise, so that's fair enough.

Wright will be back soon I hope.

wixfjord wrote: »

Has been good in his last two games, very good yesterday. Give him a chance, Stan Wright was the same and look how he turned out..

He's not sticking around. Temporary replacement. Hasn't been terrible, hasn't been decent. He's filled a gap, thats pretty much all that was asked of him

Podge_irl

mikedragon32 wrote: »

Newland. Can't do the job he was brought in to do, or anything around the paddock.

Great hair though.

wixfjord

Deleted User wrote: »

Fairly sure he's just there to lean on things. Big oaf of a mercenary. But he never pretends to be otherwise, so that's fair enough.

Wright will be back soon I hope.


He's not sticking around. Temporary replacement. Hasn't been terrible, hasn't been decent. He's filled a gap, thats pretty much all that was asked of him

Well he's on a temp contract, but that doesn't mean he wont be sticking around. If he keeps showing this kind of improvement he'd be a good signing for the WC.
He was actually quite good yesterday, and held a scrum with 7 men well.
Not saying he's our next great TH, but he's improved from the first game we saw him no end.

corny

Monty Burnz wrote: »

I am completely baffled by something you see a lot of in the Irish game: as per the title, players not being able to do the basic requirements of their position.

For example, Rory Best: a hooker who can't throw into the lineout. Tony Buckley, John Hayes: props who can't scrummage.

What the hell is that all about? Lineout and scrum possession are critical to a team that wants to compete. I don't care if Tony Buckley is above average around the park - he'd have to be twice the player that Richie McCaw is around the park to compensate for being so inept in the scrum.

Clearly, if a player can only do their basic job and are hopeless in the loose, that's no good either, but given a choice of someone who is competent around the park and very good at their specialism, I'll take that every time over somebody who is good around the park and incompetent at their specialism. Threre's no way that you can compensate around the park for not being able to do your basic job well.

Thoughts?

John Hayes is neither competent around the park or competent in the scrum which makes it more baffling. He is centrally contracted though! I find it absolutely astonishing he's still playing professional rugby but there you go.

Rory Best isn't a bad hooker btw. He had a mare against the Boks (i think) in the autumn but he's generally not that bad.

CIARAN_BOYLE

wixfjord wrote: »

Well he's on a temp contract, but that doesn't mean he wont be sticking around. If he keeps showing this kind of improvement he'd be a good signing for the WC.
He was actually quite good yesterday, and held a scrum with 7 men well.
Not saying he's our next great TH, but he's improved from the first game we saw him no end.

but who are we going to lose to let him into the squad, he is a temporary signing while SW is injured. When SW is back Newland goes we are at our limit for NIQ players. We definitely won't be allowed have 3 NIQ props by the IRFU.

tolosenc

corny wrote: »

John Hayes is neither competent around the park or competent in the scrum which makes it more baffling. He is centrally contracted though! I find it absolutely astonishing he's still playing professional rugby but there you go.

Ahh sure, he's a good lifter in the line-out.

That line is akin to, whenever BOD becomes past it, people saying that he's good at being passed to.

twinytwo

Do really have to go through all this again... everyone knows at this stage hayes should retire... why keep bringing it back up?

TheHighRoad

Examples being Buckley at tighthead - cant scrummage but is good in the loose. Cronin at hooker - poor thrower but good in the loose. O'Leary at scrumhalf - like a fourth backrower but poor passer of the ball. Hayes at tighthead - cant scrummage but hes a good lineout lifter (never got that one!) Earls at 13 - cant create but has great acceleration. Healy was similar to Buckley up until last year but now hes an excellent scrummager. However on the other side we now have people who finally feel that we need to have a specialist 7 in the team and so O'Brien should be fighting between Ferris or Heaslip for their jersey and not Wallace but the problem is they're a year too late as the interpretations have changed so it traditional 7s are no longer needed. You'd wonder why these same people have now all of a sudden realised that every team needed a traditional 7 when it was too late.

Gordon Gecko

Eoin Reddan - Terribly poor pass (4 steps what the deuce?), poor with the boot and basically a ginge

stephen_n

Gordon Gecko wrote: »

Eoin Reddan - Terribly poor pass (4 steps what the deuce?), poor with the boot and basically a ginge

Before coming to Leinster there was absolutely nothing wrong with Reddans pass!

PhatPiggins

What about posters who can't post anything new or original? I never understand that.

Monty Burnz

The odd thing is that I think we the fans can see that the policy is doomed to failure but our betters in management seem to think they can make it work, and send out teams with hookers who aren't great at throwing in, props that can't scrummage, back rows that can't steal ball and scrum-halves who can't pass.

Every Ireland/Munster scrummage for the last few years I've been watching through my fingers.

skregs

Scrum-halves who can't box kick.
That's why TOL is better than Stringer, Boss and Reddan combined

irishbucsfan

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Also while the hooker seems to be invisible in the scrum a lot of pundits comment on Best shoring up the scrum while he is on. Not sure how accurate that is.

I've said it before. I'm annoying even myself now... but we conceded 1 penalty in the scrums with Best at Hooker, and around 12/13 with Cronin at Hooker during the AIs. During the entire time Buckley and Healy (penalty machines normally) were in the front row against the Boks, we conceded nothing in the scrums (although Buckley was shoved around a bit IIRC).A hooker's contribution in the scrum is vital.

BUT his throwing has been poor this season. Since his injury last year it hasn't been the same. I'd still select him for Ireland, but he needs to get the throwing right.

Cronin v. Best is a close one. It's two hookers who can't throw the ball particularly well. One is great in the loose (although hasn't shown that for Ireland YET), the other is a top class scrummager. For me, we need all the help we can get in the scrums, and with a back row of Ferris/O'Brien/Heaslip we live do without Cronin in the loose.

As i said before

PhatPiggins wrote: »

What about posters who can't post anything new or original? I never understand that.

This is all true and on topic; if you don't like whats written don't read on and don't post. It doesn't matter if its not "original" or "new".

Sure you knew by the title what was going to be written yet you chose to come on in and post something off topic and argumentative.

Daragh86

Gordon Gecko wrote: »

Eoin Reddan - Terribly poor pass (4 steps what the deuce?), poor with the boot and basically a ginge

His pass is fine. Have you ever thought that the four steps before he passes might be a tactic to keep the fringe defence honest and give the first reciever a split second more on the ball which opens up a world of options outside him?

I'm sure if told to do so reddan could pass from the base of the ruck and put the first reciever under pressure, but sure then you'd be whinging that o'gara/sexton were useless???

Why let the fringe defence know what your doing every time???

Eoin

TheHighRoad wrote:

Healy was similar to Buckley up until last year but now hes an excellent scrummager.

I don't think he's there yet, but he's definitely come on a lot. And he's still young, especially for a prop, which is great. Hayes and Buckley are simply the wrong shape for tight-head. It's not an easy position at the best of times; let alone when it's that much easier for the opposing loose-head to get under you.

Daragh86 wrote:

His pass is fine. Have you ever thought that the four steps before he passes might be a tactic to keep the fringe defence honest and give the first reciever a split second more on the ball which opens up a world of options outside him?

I think a very quick pass would buy more time for the 1st receiver. All that time that he has the ball in hand, is time that the defence can use to rush up. I reckon that any split second he might save by doing that is more than cancelled out.

Daragh86

Eoin wrote: »

I think a very quick pass would buy more time for the 1st receiver. All that time that he has the ball in hand, is time that the defence can use to rush up. I reckon that any split second he might save by doing that is more than cancelled out.

I agree with you in that it gives time for the back line to rush up but this can simply be got over by setting a small bit deeper.

Have a look at 6/7/8 in any game stringer plays in and compare them to a game that an al round scrumhalf plays in and you'll see the difference that an all rounder makes compared to the likes of stringer who backrowers can almost guarentee will flash the ball out every time.

I'd take a scrumhalf who can keep the fringe defence honest over one who can't any day, very simple decision in my books. Having said that Boss is a whole lot better at it than Reddan but sometimes sticks his stupid head on for big games. Boss had a fantastic game for Leinster a couple weeks ago (forget who they were playing but he started the game, nearly sure it was a french club?), if he played like that consistantly he'd be first choice SH for Ireland.

buck65

John Hayes was well able to scrum down with the best of them up till the 2009 season when the Irish and Munster scrum started going backwards. Never a specialist scrummager but rarely embarassed til recently. At 35 years of age it's hard to blame him. Most people seem to forget about all the good days he had in green and red (8 good seasons of top class rugby) because he is struggling recently.
I think Kidney deserves alot of the blame for keeping Hayes in his plans for the RWC at the expense of Ross thus forcing Hayes to start games where 20 minutes off the bench when the opposition are tiring would be more suitable.
I imagine due to pressure from media etc. that Kidney will review this policy for the 6 nations and the Bull will be putting the feet up for a well deserved rest next autumn.

PhatPiggins

As i said before wrote: »

This is all true and on topic; if you don't like whats written don't read on and don't post. It doesn't matter if its not "original" or "new".

Sure you knew by the title what was going to be written yet you chose to come on in and post something off topic and argumentative.

I've never had a stalker before. Should I be honoured or scared?

Eoin

this can simply be got over by setting a small bit deeper.

But you don't often want to give away yards like that for free - often you want quick, flat ball.

Reddan takes on enough ball himself to keep the fringe defence in place. If he goes himself a couple of times, then I think that's enough to plant the defence. Also, a lot of the time he just looks completely undecided - it doesn't look like a deliberate plan at all.

jacothelad

PhatPiggins wrote: »

I've never had a stalker before. Should I be honoured or scared?

You've never had a stalker? Strange. It's a fairly common thing for men, especially in the morning when you wake up.

CiaranMT

Monty Burnz wrote: »

I am completely baffled by something you see a lot of in the Irish game: as per the title, players not being able to do the basic requirements of their position.

For example, Rory Best: a hooker who can't throw into the lineout. Tony Buckley, John Hayes: props who can't scrummage.

What the hell is that all about? Lineout and scrum possession are critical to a team that wants to compete. I don't care if Tony Buckley is above average around the park - he'd have to be twice the player that Richie McCaw is around the park to compensate for being so inept in the scrum.

Clearly, if a player can only do their basic job and are hopeless in the loose, that's no good either, but given a choice of someone who is competent around the park and very good at their specialism, I'll take that every time over somebody who is good around the park and incompetent at their specialism. Threre's no way that you can compensate around the park for not being able to do your basic job well.

Thoughts?

Hayes was a fine prop, but has stayed around too long.

Best can throw.

Buckley can scrummage with some respectability when with Smal in the Ireland camp.

Having said that, would start Cronin and Ross instead of Buckley and Best.

remwhite

TheHighRoad wrote: »

Examples being Buckley at tighthead - cant scrummage but is good in the loose. Cronin at hooker - poor thrower but good in the loose. O'Leary at scrumhalf - like a fourth backrower but poor passer of the ball. Hayes at tighthead - cant scrummage but hes a good lineout lifter (never got that one!) Earls at 13 - cant create but has great acceleration. Healy was similar to Buckley up until last year but now hes an excellent scrummager. However on the other side we now have people who finally feel that we need to have a specialist 7 in the team and so O'Brien should be fighting between Ferris or Heaslip for their jersey and not Wallace but the problem is they're a year too late as the interpretations have changed so it traditional 7s are no longer needed. You'd wonder why these same people have now all of a sudden realised that every team needed a traditional 7 when it was too late.

Wallace isn't and never was a specialist 7. So they should all be fighting for 6 and maybe drag Gleeson out of retirement.

Also, Ferris, O'Brien and Heaslip are all excellent ball winners so negates the need for a fetcher.

roycon

some absolutely outrageous comments being left here including tomas oleary and eoin reddan as being examples of people who cant do their main jobs. reddan has an exceptionally good pass sometimes he takes steps to draw the first defenders but if he needs to give the ball quickly he can do that too. hes not really big enough to play international rugby to an very high level similar to pierre mignoni. tomas should be starting scrum half though because hes the most balanced all rounder.

corny

roycon wrote: »

some absolutely outrageous comments being left here including tomas oleary and eoin reddan as being examples of people who cant do their main jobs. reddan has an exceptionally good pass sometimes he takes steps to draw the first defenders but if he needs to give the ball quickly he can do that too. hes not really big enough to play international rugby to an very high level similar to pierre mignoni. tomas should be starting scrum half though because hes the most balanced all rounder.

I've seen Reddan in games where his delivery is sharp and accurate but far too often he does float around the base of a ruck with no clear idea of what to do next. I don't know if its concentration or maybe confidence but he can be very frustrating to watch at times.

forlorndonkey

corny wrote: »

I've seen Reddan in games where his delivery is sharp and accurate but far too often he does float around the base of a ruck with no clear idea of what to do next. I don't know if its concentration or maybe confidence but he can be very frustrating to watch at times.

I think he is an absolutely brutal player. Absolutely brutal against Samoa. I don't know what he's doing when he fakes to run, everyone knows he's too small and too slow to be any threat and knows he's faking. He's basically Peter Stringer if he was crap at throwing. Isaac Boss is crap at passing as well, and he's as slow as a tortoise. The only way he could make a tackle is if someone ran directly at him. TOL is really the only option. He's almost as good at passing as Stringer and so massively superior to him in every other way.

Similar story to hooker where without Flannery we're screwed. Strange situation where we have an embarrassment of riches in some positions like centres, locks and backrows, and we really have irreplaceable people without whom the entire team falls apart in others.

davidpfitz

roycon wrote: »

reddan has an exceptionally good pass sometimes he takes steps to draw the first defenders but if he needs to give the ball quickly he can do that too. hes not really big enough to play international rugby to an very high level similar to pierre mignoni.

Parra, Dupuy and Elissalde are all small chaps too - and very good S/Hs. Reddan's bigger than the lot of them (Mignoni, too).

What is it about the French team and small scrum halves?

davidpfitz

davidpfitz wrote: »

Parra, Dupuy and Elissalde are all small chaps too - and very good S/Hs. Reddan's bigger than the lot of them (Mignoni, too).

What is it about the French team and small scrum halves?

I would love any of them in an Ireland squad. Ellisalde #1.

France have an abundance of world class scrum halves.

danthefan

Ellisalde is retired.

Eoin

forlorndonkey wrote: »

Similar story to hooker where without Flannery we're screwed.

I wouldn't say that he is so much better than Best that we're screwed without him.

danthefan

danthefan wrote: »

Ellisalde is retired.

I know yeah, what if we shaved his head, would he pass for stringer?

trackguy

forlorndonkey wrote: »

I think he is an absolutely brutal player. Absolutely brutal against Samoa. I don't know what he's doing when he fakes to run, everyone knows he's too small and too slow to be any threat and knows he's faking. He's basically Peter Stringer if he was crap at throwing. Isaac Boss is crap at passing as well, and he's as slow as a tortoise. The only way he could make a tackle is if someone ran directly at him. TOL is really the only option. He's almost as good at passing as Stringer and so massively superior to him in every other way.

Similar story to hooker where without Flannery we're screwed. Strange situation where we have an embarrassment of riches in some positions like centres, locks and backrows, and we really have irreplaceable people without whom the entire team falls apart in others.

Reddan is more capable of making clean breaks than TOL or Stringer.

The only way Isaac Boss could make a tackle is if someone ran directly at him? Have you watched him play? He's a very good defender.

TOL is the only option? Maybe back in 2009 where the gameplan was to pop the ball to a forward beside him or to pick and go and he was useful in protecting O'Gara defensively. With the new laws and Ireland's need for a more expansive game, both he and Boss are the least suitable scrumhalves.

Reddan and Stringer are the best scrumhalves at increasing and maintaining a quick tempo at the rucks (I'll concede that Reddan can be pedestrian at times). They are also the best passers - with Stringer being clearly the best.

Your claim that TOL's pass is nearly as good as Stringer's is laughable.

lologram

Deleted User wrote: »

I know yeah, what if we shaved his head, would he pass for stringer?

Only if he became a significantly more limited player, as well as shaving his head.

PhatPiggins

Eoin wrote: »

I wouldn't say that he is so much better than Best that we're screwed without him.

He's a lot better then best in the important areas though i.e. lineouts and scrums.

Eoin

Lineout maybe - but Best is widely acknowledged as the better scrummager. And I still don't think that the difference is so great that we're "screwed" without Flannery.

forlorndonkey

Eoin wrote: »

Lineout maybe - but Best is widely acknowledged as the better scrummager. And I still don't think that the difference is so great that we're "screwed" without Flannery.

Because all our tries come off the back of line outs, all of BOD, Tommy Bowe, Shane Horgan etc's tries come off the back of that set piece, bar the odd kick ahead. None of them are capable of scoring tries regularly in open play. As soon as Flannery and POC were out of the picture with injury we were screwed, just look at the results. In the case of POC there actually are players just as good as him to replace him like Cullen and Casey, but Kidney used MOD instead for some reason I still can't understand.

irishbucsfan

forlorndonkey wrote: »

Because all our tries come off the back of line outs, all of BOD, Tommy Bowe, Shane Horgan etc's tries come off the back of that set piece, bar the odd kick ahead.

:pac:

Absolute rubbish!

Maybe when O'Gara was at 10 (and not even then), but not any more. Also, Best is the better scrummager.

I'd love to have the Flannery of 09, but Best is a good international Hooker as well

forlorndonkey

irishbucsfan wrote: »

:pac:

Absolute rubbish!

Maybe when O'Gara was at 10 (and not even then), but not any more. Also, Best is the better scrummager.

I'd love to have the Flannery of 09, but Best is a good international Hooker as well

Who cares if Best is a better scrummager when he can't do his most important job? That's like saying we should stick O Driscoll in at flyhalf because he's a better ball carrier than O Gara and Sexton. Priorities for jaysus sake!

No Line outs = no tries for O Driscoll/Bowe/Horgan

irishbucsfan

forlorndonkey wrote: »

Who cares if Best is a better scrummager when he can't do his most important job? That's like saying we should stick O Driscoll in at flyhalf because he's a better ball carrier than O Gara and Sexton. Priorities for jaysus sake!

Because scrummaging is one of the Hookers biggest jobs? He's just as good at throwing as Cronin. I'm not sure about Varley.

And its absolutely nothing like putting a player into a position he's never played before. Best is the best hooker in the country who is fit at the moment.

forlorndonkey

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Because scrummaging is one of the Hookers biggest jobs? He's just as good at throwing as Cronin. I'm not sure about Varley.

And its absolutely nothing like putting a player into a position he's never played before. Best is the best hooker in the country who is fit at the moment.

We can live without a scrum, we won a grand slam without a scrum, without a line out we are screwed. And the proof is in the pudding, look at our results recently.

Line outs >>> Scrums.

irishbucsfan

forlorndonkey wrote: »

We can live without a scrum, we won a grand slam without a scrum, without a line out we are screwed. And the proof is in the pudding, look at our results recently.

Line outs >>> Scrums.

So what is your point? That we just can't win now because Flannery is injured and everyone else can't throw?

forlorndonkey

irishbucsfan wrote: »

So what is your point? That we just can't win now because Flannery is injured and everyone else can't throw?

It's a massive factor. Until Flannery is throwing to a lineout specialist like O Connell, Cullen or Casey we won't be operating at 100%.

irishbucsfan

forlorndonkey wrote: »

It's a massive factor. Until Flannery is throwing to a lineout specialist like O Connell, Cullen or Casey we won't be operating at 100%.

We will still be able to keep our own ball at the lineout with Best, Cullen and O'Connell. Its not like Ulster lose all their lineouts!

And defensively at the lineout we're as strong as we ever were. Except for arguably losing Hayes' lifting. In fact with Cullen in for DOC we'll be stronger.


Bob Casey is about the 10th best Irish second row. He has absolutely no hope of being selected for Ireland. POC, DOC, Cullen, Toner, Tuohy, Ryan and MOD (on last season's form) are all far better than him. Casey is lethargic, he has no ability on the ball and his workrate is getting poorer and poorer. There is a reason he was never selected or Ireland.

forlorndonkey

irishbucsfan wrote: »

We will still be able to keep our own ball at the lineout with Best, Cullen and O'Connell. Its not like Ulster lose all their lineouts!

And defensively at the lineout we're as strong as we ever were. Except for arguably losing Hayes' lifting. In fact with Cullen in for DOC we'll be stronger.


Bob Casey is about the 10th best Irish second row. He has absolutely no hope of being selected for Ireland. POC, DOC, Cullen, Toner, Tuohy, Ryan and MOD (on last season's form) are all far better than him. Casey is lethargic, he has no ability on the ball and his workrate is getting poorer and poorer. There is a reason he was never selected or Ireland.

Look at the thread title, the second row needs a line out specialist. Casey is one of the best line out specialists in the world. He'd still be behind POC and Cullen for me, but POC and Cullen were both injured for a while that's why I mentioned him.

It isn't like POC contributes anything but winning line outs either is it? Has he ever made a yard in his entire career? He's probably just as slow as Casey in my opinion. Nothing wrong with that as long as he keep winning line outs though. Getting off topic here but Casey would be good for getting a bit more weight behind the props in my opinion.

irishbucsfan

forlorndonkey wrote: »

Look at the thread title, the second row needs a line out specialist. Casey is one of the best line out specialists in the world. He'd still be behind POC and Cullen for me, but POC and Cullen were both injured for a while that's why I mentioned him.

It isn't like POC contributes anything but winning line outs either is it? Has he ever made a yard in his entire career? He's probably just as slow as Casey in my opinion. Nothing wrong with that as long as he keep winning line outs though. Getting off topic here but Casey would be good for getting a bit more weight behind the props in my opinion.

Casey wasn't even one of the best lineout specialists in the world when he was in his prime! Now he's in his 30s and is certainly nowhere near good enough to be in the Ireland squad.

Between Cullen, O'Connell and Toner there are enough good jumpers in the squad without forcing the resurrection of the career of a player who was never that good to begin with.