The difference between Stout and Porter?

Freiheit

Guinness is often referred to as Porter, but apparently there was a difference historicaly, was Porter a weaker form of Guinness, or Guinness 'slops'?.

Can anyone also tell me how barrells were transported in the past?. I assume by canal, but until when?. And would the world wars likely have affected supplies of alcohol?

Danke!
F

shanec1928

Freiheit wrote: »

Guinness is often referred to as Porter, but apparently there was a difference historicaly, was Porter a weaker form of Guinness, or Guinness 'slops'?.

Can anyone also tell me how barrells were transported in the past?. I assume by canal, but until when?. And would the world wars likely have affected supplies of alcohol?

Danke!
F

up until recently they were brought by train.that was to sligo any ways..

saefraigh

Much energy has gone into debating the origins of the name porter,
it means beer of the working classes, porters as in the old
term for labouring people or from the Latin ‘portare’. The
fashion at the turn of the 20th century was to call the
strongest beer in a brewery stout and so we got the name
porter stout. Classic Irish stout, despite its stark appearance,
is a very friendly style of beer. It’s very dry, brisk, and light.
That’s right, light. Don’t be fooled by the colour – that’s a
result of the heavy use of roasted grains in the mash. All the
major labels of draught Irish stout contain less than 5%
alcohol.

From here
see beer menu

I didn't believe it at first either but a little digging and asking a few aul boys in the local makes me go for it.

BeerNut

Freiheit wrote: »

Guinness is often referred to as Porter, but apparently there was a difference historicaly, was Porter a weaker form of Guinness, or Guinness 'slops'?.

Modern Guinness is "Guinness Extra Stout", a stronger version of Guinness Plain Porter, which they stopped making around 1970.

Freiheit wrote: »

Can anyone also tell me how barrells were transported in the past?. I assume by canal, but until when?

Couldn't tell you exactly, but the railways would have supplanted the canals, probably from the mid-nineteenth century. Railways would have given way to road transport a century later. Before the canals, Guinness wasn't really sold outside Dublin.

Freiheit wrote: »

And would the world wars likely have affected supplies of alcohol?

Sales certainly fell during World War I -- see the table here. Also, the strength of beer throughout the UK changed dramatically in 1917 because of tax increases. Guinness Extra Stout was about 7.5% ABV until then. It was cut right back and though it's gone up and down in strength since has never been as strong as it was before WWI.

Bull & Castle menu wrote:

it means beer of the working classes, porters as in the old term for labouring people or from the Latin ‘portare’.

I don't think that's true. It's much more likely to come from the porters in London with whom it was particularly popular. There's an article about them here.

Freiheit

Thanks Beernut,I'm trying to write an article and need to fill some gaps. Was a pint always the standard measurement?. Can you say when draught beer as opposed to Guinness became widespread? Mum comes from a pub and she said that as a child beer was served only in bottles.

BeerNut

Freiheit wrote: »

Was a pint always the standard measurement?

I don't think there's ever been any absolute standard measure of beer, but I'm sure people have been drinking pints for as long as such things were measured.

Freiheit wrote: »

Can you say when draught beer as opposed to Guinness became widespread?

Not sure what you mean. Modern draught Guinness was launched in 1959. Prior to that it was served from the cask on draught, and that was mostly confined to urban areas. Elsewhere, it would have been bottles. It took a while for practice to change -- well into the 1960s. In the south-east the pint bottle is still a popular method of serving stout.

Bigcheeze

Also, many publicans would have bottled beer themselves from a barrel. My grandfather was a publican and used to do it in the fifties. Not sure when that was phased out.

BeerNut

There were still independent bottlers of Guinness into the 1990s, though they would have been wholesalers by that point rather than retailers. Tom Deveney of Deveney's Dundrum said they always got their Guinness from Coman's because it was the best quality. He said they also used to get their own-brand claret and burgundy, bottled for them by a wine merchant on Abbey Street.

Freiheit

Thanks all, by beer I mean not stout, stout is not a beer...I mean my Mum said as a kid in the 50's only stout was solf from a keg and it was from 2 kegs I think, one for froth, one for main body of the pint.

BeerNut

Freiheit wrote: »

stout is not a beer

Yes it is.

The lager boom happened in the the 1950s and '60s. Guinness started brewing Harp in 1959, but they were trying to cash in on something that was already popular. I'm not sure when lager overtook stout as Ireland's favourite beer style, but if I had to guess I'd say the mid-to-late '70s.

Freiheit wrote: »

my Mum said as a kid in the 50's only stout was solf from a keg and it was from 2 kegs I think, one for froth, one for main body of the pint.

They would have been casks rather than kegs, and this was called the "high-cask, low-cask" method: most of your pint was fresh fizzy beer but about a third of it was "stale" beer: the same stuff only aged for flavour.

The myths that there's a particular skill to pouring a pint of Guinness and that it has to be done in two pours stem from the high-cask, low-cask system. Guinness hoped that by making punters wait on their pint they wouldn't notice it had changed from cask to keg.

Freiheit

Ah thanks hadn't realised this, so there isn't really any difference in quality if Guinness was filled in a single pull? tried it a few times and didn't think so. Didn't realise stout was a beer.

BeerNut

Freiheit wrote: »

so there isn't really any difference in quality if Guinness was filled in a single pull?

Nope. I mean, logically how could there be?

You pour canned draught Guinness in one go, and they now have ball-lock taps in big venues like the O2 which are single pour. Pints settling in the pub are part of the brand myth and are really just for marketing purposes these days.

mathepac

The differences between stout and porter are largely in the mind and name rather than in the content or the treatment of the raw ingredients.

The various names and 'types' of stout and porter are also primarily myth, but have some historical foundation in the preferred serving and storage methods used regionally; e.g. 'milk stout', 'dry stout', 'plain porter', etc. Plain porter, 'a pint o' plain is your only man' was simply single-tap Guinness with no 'head' added from the second cask and was cheaper than the 'two tap pint'.

The two-tap Guinness pour was outmoded by the modern keg and the inline chiller, but some traditionalists persisted with it for some years in order to preserve the mystique about pulling and serving the drink and perhaps to help boost margins (tap two containing ullage, allegedly).

Initially, the single-Guinness tap had two positions, one for body, the other for head and the tap allowed varying degrees on carbon dioxide into the glass to produce the creamy froth or head.

I bottled Guinness in the cellars of two family pubs years ago, each pub having a unique pre-printed Guinness label identifying the bottler.

Germag

Guinness in wooden barrels was shipped by barge from Wood quay to their ship docked at Custom House Quay well into the 1950's. In fact a painting which won the forerunner of the Texeco child art comp in 1952 showed the barrels been loaded from the barge to the ship. ( I think the Gwendelen. spelling may be incorrect ). When I started drinking there was a beginers drink called a 50.

BeerNut

mathepac wrote: »

Plain porter, 'a pint o' plain is your only man' was simply single-tap Guinness with no 'head' added from the second cask and was cheaper than the 'two tap pint'.

It was definitely a different beer. See this table, for instance. Guinness Porter was more popular in Ireland than the Extra Stout, until 1920. I guess that because Extra Stout changed to session-strength in 1917.

Here are some comparative gravities of the different Guinness beers too. All tables from Ron Pattinson's blog.

mathepac wrote: »

Initially, the single-Guinness tap had two positions, one for body, the other for head

Still does: pull back and push forward.

Freiheit

and does the term 'bar' originate from a bar at foot level below the counter?.

irish_goat

Freiheit wrote: »

and does the term 'bar' originate from a bar at foot level below the counter?.

Apparently...

bar (2) "tavern," 1590s, so called in reference to the bars of the barrier or counter over which drinks or food were served to customers (see bar (1))

...

Freiheit

And when the two barrel system existed for stout would the froth barrel have been colder? and the barrel for the main section of the pint warmer?. How would a difference in temperature have been maintained?.

In Pubs in the 19th century would smoking have been mostly from pipes?. Anybody know what brands would have been common then?. My Grandparents bar was founded in 1865.

BeerNut

Freiheit wrote: »

And when the two barrel system existed for stout would the froth barrel have been colder? and the barrel for the main section of the pint warmer?

Nope. Both would have been kept in the same place.

The froth/main body distinction you mention is very different from descriptions I've read. The main body was the frothy bit. The top-up was flatter, matured beer for flavour.

Freiheit

Thanks Beernut, so there was no difference in temperature, and how was froth then created? By the act of falling into the glass, or shaking?.

BeerNut

Freiheit wrote: »

how was froth then created?

Beer is fizzy.

Freiheit

Your a mine of knowledge Beernut!...I'm very grateful! :)a real biggie now, any idea what would have been typicals beers in an Irish Pub in 1865? Or even 1965?.

bitte sehr
F

oblivious

Freiheit wrote: »

Thanks Beernut, so there was no difference in temperature, and how was froth then created? By the act of falling into the glass, or shaking?.

Impurities in the beer/glass provide nucleation site in which dissolved CO2 can come out of solution, how much gas is in solution is depend on boyle's law

BeerNut

Freiheit wrote: »

any idea what would have been typicals beers in an Irish Pub in 1865?

Porter. In a bottle. Most likely from Guinness, but lots of other breweries were operating locally throughout the country, all making different sorts of beers.

Freiheit wrote: »

Or even 1965?

That's just the beginning of the change which brought us to the modern day. Still lots of bottled porter, though from fewer breweries. A big roll-out of draught Guinness and Harp lager in the new-fangled lounge bars (for the ladies). Plus local pockets of ale: Cairn's, Smithwick's, Macardle's, Cherry's, Power's, Caffrey's, depending on where you are.

ollaetta

Germag wrote: »

Guinness in wooden barrels was shipped by barge from Wood quay to their ship docked at Custom House Quay well into the 1950's. In fact a painting which won the forerunner of the Texeco child art comp in 1952 showed the barrels been loaded from the barge to the ship. ( I think the Gwendelen. spelling may be incorrect ). When I started drinking there was a beginers drink called a 50.

Good photos of the barges here: http://heritageboatassociation.ie/cms/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=158&Itemid=43

Freiheit

And what form of toliets would pubs have had in the 19th/early 20th century, a pit with quicklime to cover deposits?.

The bar at the counter would have been intended as a foot-rest?.

In 1865 and the early 20th century what tobacco is likely to have been sold?.

IrishWhiskeyCha

Concidently the Knapp brothers set up shop on Grafton street in 1865 which went on to becomes Knapp & Petersons shortly after and now just Petersons. So from that we can take it pipe smoking was a big thing in those days especially when a pipe maker sets up on one of the premium streets of the what was then the second capital of the British empire. I would imagine there could actually of been a bigger selection of pipe tobacco back then than now.

BeerNut

IrishWhiskeyCha wrote: »

I would imagine there could actually of been a bigger selection of pipe tobacco back then than now.

Should be easy enough to find in a trade directory from the period.

MediaTank

Freiheit wrote: »

In Pubs in the 19th century would smoking have been mostly from pipes?. Anybody know what brands would have been common then?. My Grandparents bar was founded in 1865.

Definitely, and mostly clay pipes at that. Each pub would most likely have it's own blend served from a drawer behind the bar. At that time it would have been 'plug' tobacco too. Cigars were for the upper classes at that time, and cigarettes did not catch on until a couple of decades later.

johnnyskeleton

Freiheit wrote: »

and does the term 'bar' originate from a bar at foot level below the counter?.

The phrase bar comes from the actual bar, surely, as in the counter that separates the public area from the private area.

Kinda like the bar that separates a judge from the rest of the court.

Anyways, in the spirit of dubious stories about guinness, in the days before Coke-Cola or other soft drinks, children would be given a glass of guinness, boiled for 4 minutes until all the alcohol had burned off.

johnnyskeleton

IrishWhiskeyCha wrote: »

Concidently the Knapp brothers set up shop on Grafton street in 1865 which went on to becomes Knapp & Petersons shortly after and now just Petersons. So from that we can take it pipe smoking was a big thing in those days especially when a pipe maker sets up on one of the premium streets of the what was then the second capital of the British empire. I would imagine there could actually of been a bigger selection of pipe tobacco back then than now.

Not sure if it is Petersons or JJ Fox, but didn't one of them set up on college green because they were a favourite of the provost of trinity college, and exchange for high quality tobacco he gave them a lease at a reduced rate? Not sure where I heard that from so it's even more dubious than my previous comment.

BeerNut

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Kinda like the bar that separates a judge from the rest of the court.

The bars in a courtroom do not separate the judge from the rest, they (inner bar and outer bar) separate the participants (judge, jury, defendant, witnesses, lawyers etc) from the spectators. Where they still physically exist they're a railing, not a counter.

Molloys Clondalkin

I used to work for Mr Fox
He owns the buildings from the AIB to Petersons something which I always found incredible owning your competiters building :eek:
Mr Fow also owns whats used to be called TDL now Ampersand he introduced duty free to Ireland and the world God bless him
Kapp and Peterson are also a good tobaccanist but I have to shop in Rons for loyalty!!