Gonna DIY a multisat setup. Need advice :)

dnme

After a few posts here, I'm gonna swap out my 60cm dish for a larger dish with a multi LNB bracket and say 3-4 LNB's. I'm hoping to pick up a few sats just for curiosity and as a way to better utilize my beloved VU+ duo.

I'm in south Co. Sligo so west of Ireland. I am hoping to get a strong 28.2 as this is the core of my FTA tv. My current signal on this is excellent quality and strength. I am hoping to maybe add 19e and 13e. Maybe you'd recommend different or extra here? I'm unemployed and on a serious budget so happy to go secondhand etc.

1. Can you tell me what dish size I should go with?
My current dish is on the side of the chimney. I am limited to where I can place a new dish as there is a farm and sheds immediately attached to me and I am in a rented cottage (I have permission ). So the smallest dish I can get away with.

2. Can anyone recommend where I might get the dish and multi-LNB bracket together ? (Don't want to hang a heavy bracket onto a dish that is not designed for the extra weight)

3. How can I best utilize my twin inputs on my VU+ duo? Do I use 3 x twin LNB's? Realistically I would want record any / watch any available on 28.2, don't really mind about others.

4. Do I need a physical piece of Disecq kit? Can you link one on the web so I can see it, does it go outside? or inside?

5. How do I tune in the sats? I have seem TVDaves videos and can get a simple sat finder but how do I know which sats I'm finding?

6. Anything else you can think of?

Love this forum, its always fascinating and many thanks for any help and advice you can give.

snaps

well, ill give you a short answer. I would leave your current dish up and use that on an input. It would be just as cheap then to get a 1m dish or even a 1.1m decent mount, lnb and a motor.

People say that setting up a motor is hard, well i think its just as hard to set up as a multi lnb dish.

Ive seen some cheap motor/dish sales somewhere recently but cannot think where!

Rough guide: Dish would cost 60e, motor, 60e,lnb 5e, cable, 10e, bracket 10e.

You may well get pleasure and frustration in setting up a motorised dish.

fish fingers

snaps wrote: »

well, ill give you a short answer. I would leave your current dish up and use that on an input. It would be just as cheap then to get a 1m dish or even a 1.1m decent mount, lnb and a motor.

People say that setting up a motor is hard, well i think its just as hard to set up as a multi lnb dish.

Ive seen some cheap motor/dish sales somewhere recently but cannot think where!

Rough guide: Dish would cost 60e, motor, 60e,lnb 5e, cable, 10e, bracket 10e.

You may well get pleasure and frustration in setting up a motorised dish.

Well we know how snaps gets his kicks

dnme

Yea after another bit of research, I am now thinking motor also. What is the smallest motorised dish I could get away with?

My cottage is right out on the road, my landlord lives right beside me (2 meters between houses). My sat needs to point across the road from the front o the cottage. Back garden is out cos its on a fall away slope.

I am thinking of the gable end between my house and landlords as it would hide dish somewhat. But that site is partially restricted. The only other site would be the chimney.

So size matters. What's the smallest I can get away with ?

polyfusion

One of the first things you need to decide is if you want to have more than 1 receiver. If you want more than 1 receiver utilising all the same dishes/LNBs, it will complicate things if you want to use a motor. But your questions point to not using a motor.

My own personal setup is an 80cm dish with 28E, 19E and 13E, with an extra 60cm dish to use the 4th input on a 4-way DISEqC switch, moved to different orbital positions as I see fit. Works fine in Dublin, and I know works fine in Bundoran, so should be fine in Sligo.

However, when/if Saorsat is launched, I may do a bit of rearrangement. If your receiver does DTT as well, maybe it won't concern you (not familiar with the VU+ duo), but you may want to keep it in mind. It might be doable to point the 60cm dish at 28E, and have a second dish with 19E, 13E and 9E (where Saorsat might be). But I'll have to wait until Saorsat is being broadcast to see where that might go.

To try and answer your questions...

1. 80cm should be fine with the sats you mention. If you wanted to go with a satellite with more English content, you may want to look at 26E, but would be looking at a 1 or 1.2m dish. Planning on experimenting with 26E myself with an 80cm, but I don't hold much hope. With a 1 or 1.2 pointed at 26E, you may be able to get 19E with a side LNB. Since you already have a dish at 28E, might be best to keep it at that, and get used to using an extra dish, and seeing what's possible.

2. Where to buy? There are online stores, eBay, some of the posters here have shops.

3. You would only need a twin on any position you would want to watch and record at the same time. For example, if you only want that for 28E, then only install a twin on the 28E position. For example, you could have one of your tuners connected to a 4-way DiSEqC (in turn connected to 28, 19, 13, 9 LNBs for example), and your other tuner connected to extra input on 28E position twin LNB. If you found that you later wanted to record from 9E, you would need to add another DiSEqC switch. 9E will probably require a different LNB to the one you've got at the moment.

4. http://shop.ebay.co.uk/?_from=R40&_npmv=3&_trksid=m570&_nkw=4+diseqc+switch

5. You may mean align here. You would need some sort of beeper or meter. The cheapest, which I use, would be a beeper, like this http://www.satellite-connection-systems.com/satellite-beeper.html It's a matter of having a rough idea where to point the LNB, getting a strong signal, scanning with the receiver, and seeing what you're looking at. Check TPs at a site like flysat.com, if you're looking for 13E, and find you're getting 10E, you will then know which direction to move the dish, find another strong signal, and scan again. Once you find your sat, make fine adjustments to maximise the signal.

6. You also need to learn a bit about skew of the LNB (google for it), and when setting up a multi-LNB arrangement, the sat positions for 13E, 19E and 28E move from right to left across the sky, but because of the way the signals are reflected off the dish, your LNBs will be arranged the opposite way. Again, if you want to set this up yourself, you'll need to learn and understand, but there is plenty of info available if you google for it, or post on forums like here.

Also, a torroidal dish may increase your options; higher initial cost, but may be more cost benefit in the long run: http://www.google.ie/images?hl=en&client=opera&hs=udT&rls=en&channel=suggest&q=t90%20satellite%20dish&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi

dnme

Many thanks for that considerable response polyfusion. I gotta admit now thought that I am thinking of changing to a motorised setup. Apologies for the messing about - its all a learning curve for me.

I may leave my current 28.2e fixed dish and swap its LNB for a twin. I may then put up a second motorised dish at gable end.

So with that in mind, what configuration do I need to get to my twin receiver STB that would give me multi record on 28.2e?

dnme

Any opinions on this kit?

http://cgi.ebay.ie/95cm-MOTORISED-SATELLITE-DISH-DiSEqC-1-2-MOTOR-02-LNB-/360129327541?pt=UK_ConEle_SatCableFreeview_RL&hash=item53d96171b5

polyfusion

I haven't experience of setting up dual tuners, but I imagine if you're going motorised, you would have one tuner connected to the motorised dish, and one tuner connected to one port of the twin LNB at 28E. You would then have to park the motor at 28E to be able to multi-record at 28E (record on the motor and record on the fixed dish), unless the channels you want to watch/record are on the same transponder. You won't be able to get the value of the twin LNB on the fixed 60cm dish if you go motorised (unless you add another receiver to utilise it).

Plus, if you wanted to get 9E in the future, you would have to either ditch the motor and go fixed multi-LNB, or loose the multi-record on 28E (again, unless channels you want to multi-record are on the same transponder) by changing the LNB on the 60cm dish and pointing at 9E, because I don't think there are LNBs that do Ka and Ku (but I may be wrong, it's not something I've researched). I don't think you could multi-LNB the fixed dish to get 28E and 9E through a DiSEqC, maybe with an 80cm or torriodal. But you may also be reaching limitations of what's possible from the receiver with a setup like this.

Options would change further if you wanted to add another receiver.

Setting up a motorised to hit all satellites in the arc is difficult enough, even more so without some practice at some basic setting up, and understanding how everything comes together, including the receiver software. Personally, I do have a motor, and experimented with it a few years back, but found that most of what I'd watch would be on 28E, and then some on 19E, and then a handful on 13E.

The package you linked looks ok, except for the mount (I'd go for a mount that was attached to the wall at two points), and maybe I'd go for a bigger dish, especially on the West coast; I doubt you'd get 26E on a 95cm on the West coast, and if you're going FTA motorised, it's probably worth making sure that you can get this sat; after 28E, it's the next best sat for FTA English language content.

If I was setting up a motorised again, I'd go the whole hog and mount it at ground level, bolted on it's own plinth. The motor noise/vibration can come through the walls, and having it mounted low means it's less prone to movement from wind, and easy to work on, which will be inevitable. Another consideration for me if I was going motorised would be that the receiver could do 4:2:2 feeds.

polyfusion

Also, some receivers (I know of 1) can be set up to utilise a twin LNB on a motorised dish. But that would make your 60cm dish redundant, as the twin on the motorised would still take up your two tuners.

dnme

polyfusion wrote: »

I doubt you'd get 26E on a 95cm on the West coast, and if you're going FTA motorised, it's probably worth making sure that you can get this sat; after 28E, it's the next best sat for FTA English language content.

Now here's where I get confused, why is 26E so hard to get? surely it's just 2 degrees away from 28.2 which we can all get with small dishes fine.

polyfusion

Different satellites have different footprints, or beam directions, depending on the target region. 28E (most of it, see below) is intended for our area. 26E is intended for the Middle East.

Even if you look at the satellite details for 28E http://www.flysat.com/28east.php , you will see a beam on Astra 2B for Nigeria http://www.flysat.com/astra28-beam.php

watty

dnme wrote: »

Now here's where I get confused, why is 26E so hard to get? surely it's just 2 degrees away from 28.2 which we can all get with small dishes fine.

Astra 2D @ 28E (Freesat / Sky)

via http://www.ses-astra.com/business/en/support/media-library/Footprint-Graphics/Footprint-Graphics-28-2-East/astra-2D-north.php

4W is even better situated to most of Ireland. Nearly due South. It's impossible even though much closer, as Ireland is roughly 5W to 11W

Amos2 Europe Beam @4W

http://www.amos-spacecom.com/resources/flash/map/multiMap/map_amos2start.html

Since the Satellites are all on an arc 22,500 miles / 36,000km above Equator you can see how the foot print is oval and spread along imaginary line to satellite

dnme

Guys can we dumb this down a bit, I'm getting very confused. 4w? amos2?

I just want to pick up a few sats out there to see whats available, the more I can get the better.

Would I get away with a 90cm or 1m dish?

I have asked a huy on ebay to quote me a kit that includes a Technomate TM2600 motor, is this a decent device?

watty

far dish is triax 110cm with Motek SG2100 motor
near dish is triax 90/95 with Triax bar with 4 x LNBFs for 28E, 19E, 13E, 9E

Trees are not blocking signals (yet),

There are about 20 satellites you can get from 45W to 42E.
http://www.lyngsat.com/atlantic.html
http://www.lyngsat.com/europe.html

You need to check the footprint/beam. Some of the channels or entire satellites are impossible in Ireland, even though "visible" as they are pointing the wrong way.

Motorised is slow channel change, needs sheltered location and not good for PVR and useless for two or more receivers/TVs

The multiple LNB method is not as sensitive to weak signals, does only a fixed 20 degree arc, but has instant channel changes and suits Sky subscription and Multiple Satellites on same dish. Even Saorsat. Suits PVR and 4 to 2000 receivers from single dish.

dnme

watty

Im just thinking that I will get away with a smaller dish if I go motorised. Also if I leave my current fixed 28.2 dish alone, that will give my 28.2 and then the motorised dish will be for experimenting etc.

Channel changes will be fine if changing channels on same sat yes?

Also, is there anyway I could achieve record/watch any on 28.2e with the above setup and my vu+ duo? I'm just wondering if I fed a twin lnb into a disecq and the motorised dish into it also, would that do it?

watty

Channel change without sat change is OK
90/95cm is minimum really for worth while motorised.
Triax 110cm is max on a Diseqc Motor (Motek recommend) and needs sheltered loaction.

1.2m to 1.8m is very good, but needs 36V system and 3" to 4" pole.

Setting up motorised is much harder than multi-lnb fixed dish.
You need plumb line to make pole 100% vertical or you will never align the dish.
Meter needed (proper spectrum analyser best)
USALS receiver with your own latitude/longitude entered.
Don't rush!

see http://www.techtir.ie/articles/howto

dnme

now I am even more confused.

Motorised or Fixed ???? which one should I go for?

and could I get a pole vertical with a plumb level?

watty

Constrained by
Time
Money
DIY skills
Space
Nearby trees/buildings Line of Sight to Satellites.
Which Satellites you want.

dnme

This thread has now become counter learning for me!

I read watty's site last night infact, I quote

Diseqc motors offer a cheap and convenient method for tracking the Clarke Belt with your satellite dish. They can be easily aligned if you take a few initial precautions and follow the steps outlined below.

This is why I'm now getting confused, worried, everything you are saying seems to be "stay away from motorised" ???????????

Is there anyone else here with either a morotised or a multi-lnb setup. Could you offer any advice.

watty

It's simple
Fixed Dish. About 4 satellites. But not Any four

Motorised Dish about 20 satellites, but harder to install correctly. But not all the ones in the Sky over Ireland.

Dish Size: Bigger is better. More than 1.1m is tricky, minimum for flexibility is about 88cm

You need to give people some idea of kinds of channels you want to get.

Read the links to get some idea of what work is needed
http://www.techtir.ie/articles/howto

Click on the 13E, 19E, 8W etc links on these pages to get idea of free channels
There are about 20 satellites you can get from 45W to 42E.
http://www.lyngsat.com/atlantic.html
http://www.lyngsat.com/europe.html

dnme

I am after any channels that are english and FTA and would also consider a reasonable sub for entertainment type packages. Not really into sport, hate soccer. Love documentaries, film, comedy, drama etc.

Here's my setup. Pic 1 is the OS layout of my house and my neighbours (landlord) farmhouse and farm. As you can see, I am right beside them and right out on the road.


This nest pic gives you orientation. The sat indicated is 28.2E


The whole area is on a hill, my back garden slopes down and the fields across the road slope up. You can see I am fairly constrained. I cannot bolt a dish to the front of the house as it's a rural cottage on a scenic lane. I may be limited to the gable end between me and landord.

polyfusion

I don't know much about sub packages. I know most people that get them in this part of the world get them for English football. One way to find out is to ask people, or look at the satellite listing sites, and see if they have English language audio. Or have a look at this thread: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056117158

For example, looking at the Polish Cyfra, going through flysat.com, you get there from:
http://www.flysat.com/
to: http://www.flysat.com/hotbird.php
to: http://www.flysat.com/cyfra.php

The "A.PID Language" column will tell you the languages that are available.

As far as FTA goes, 28E has about 95% of the English language content available on all the sats that you could probably get with a 1.2m dish. Most of the English language channels on 19E and 13E for example will be news or religious channels, which are probably already on 28E (search for "eng" at pages http://www.flysat.com/astra19.php or http://www.flysat.com/hotbird.php).

Occasionally, you may grab a documentary or film in it's native language on the Slovene or Croatian channels, but that's about it; German and Italian TV dub everything; French only show French stuff; Polish TV has some annoying guy speaking over all the actors, regardless of whether the actor is male or female, rendering it the most unwatchable crap ever; even a few Polish people I know say this! Attractions for 19E and 13E for me personally would be for the free Eurosport (in German) on 19E, and I can get by watching French or German programming if I'm flicking through and stumble upon something that looks interesting. A couple of German channels might often have sports (like boxing or darts) that would otherwise be tied up by Sky. There is an awful lot of sh!te though. As an example, I have about 80 channels saved on 28E, about 40 between 19E and 13E.

A 1.2m pointed at 26E would get you about 5-10 channels with a decent about of English language content. http://www.flysat.com/badr26.php MBC But be aware I haven't checked out this content myself, just from what I've read. There was a thread here, but it's fallen off the bottom, but it can be found from google: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055037041

Also, be aware that you don't have to mount the dish on the house. It can be mounted at ground level, as long as it has line-of-sight (LOS) to the sat, that's all you need. The dishpointer site has a tool that you can position to see what height an obstacle has to be to get LOS. You could possibly get away with something mounted at the end of the garden, and still get LOS to most sats, if the buildings around you are only 1 story.

dnme

Many thanks again polyfusion. I think I'd like to go ahead anyways regardless purely for the fun and fascination. I would get a great kick out of just finding a satellite never mind finding more than one and tuning in channels. Ive dam trees all down the left side of the garden though.

I might start out with say a 90cm dish on a motor and see what I can get. I can always sell upgrade. Vendors offering packages are mostly offering wall mounts like this

How would you go about getting the upright on this plumb? Would you recommend I go for a pole instead? If pole, how are they fixed, are we talking hole in ground with concrete?

polyfusion

With a mount like that, you'd have to try putting washers behind the wall plate at the 4 holes to get it plumb. You might also need to consider the weight of the dish and motor, because once they're up, they can pull the mount down slightly, taking it out of plumb-ness (if that's a word).

If I was going motorised, and mounting on a wall (which I wouldn't) I'd go with T&K brackets with a pole between the two. A lot more room for adjustment, and a lot more secure. I had linked to a picture of T&K satellite dish mount, but it was for a commercial company; I'm sure you know how to use google. Personally, I'd make my own if I needed them, but not everyone has access to angle grinders or welders.

With a big dish (>1m) and motor, I would be inclined to put in a concrete plinth and some kind of plate embedded that I could bolt the mount to, allowing for some adjustment. It's not easy to set something in concrete and expect it to be plumb. It's ok for brickwork which can be corrected slightly as you move up, and plastered over, but trying to set a pole to be plumb is very difficult.

Your aspect there isn't the best if you can't mount on the front of the house. Mounting on either gable is going to restrict you quite a bit. You won't get much west from 28E on the east end, and mightn't get 28E on the west end. Ideal position would be towards the west end of the front of the house.

Initially, it might be best to forget about the motor, and get to grips with the equipment and finding satellites first. A dish, an LNB (single or twin), some f-connectors, a beeper, some cable and some way to mount it is all you need initially. None of that is particularly expensive, even adding a 4-way DiSEqC and a couple of extra LNBs won't add much to that. Adding a motor will add a fair bit onto that, maybe a third or half of the cost of everything else there, depending on where you shop and size of dish. And if you come to find that setting it up is frustrating and not much fun, it could put you off completely.

But it's your choice.

Zardoz

snaps wrote: »

Ive seen some cheap motor/dish sales somewhere recently but cannot think where!

Here perhaps ?
https://www.satplace.de/zubehoer-145/antennen_bundle-254/100er_usals_komplettpaket-p1746.html
Complete 1m motorised system ,delivered for under a tonne.Savage value

watty

dnme wrote: »

Many thanks again polyfusion. I think I'd like to go ahead anyways regardless purely for the fun and fascination. I would get a great kick out of just finding a satellite never mind finding more than one and tuning in channels. Ive dam trees all down the left side of the garden though.

I might start out with say a 90cm dish on a motor and see what I can get. I can always sell upgrade. Vendors offering packages are mostly offering wall mounts like this

How would you go about getting the upright on this plumb? Would you recommend I go for a pole instead? If pole, how are they fixed, are we talking hole in ground with concrete?

That mount is only good up to about 70cm / 80cm fixed dish. Maybe smaller, perhaps 65cm max with no motor. You'd never get it plumb for a motor. Also may not stick out enough to let dish turn.

As was said "T" and "K" brackets that have horizontal slot on at least one bracket, with wide spacing and adjust 2nd bracket with slots as it's tightened to make the brackets perfectly in-line vertically. Then bolt pole and adjust in/out from wall to get plumb (the wall will not be plumb, but brackets have slot where U bolts go). Maybe fine adjust left/right on one bracket.

The hole in ground method is OK if you have space and large enough garden for LOS the whole arc from near ground level.


It's very time consuming to upgrade. Go for what is best size dish, a Triax 90cm wide /95cm tall dish is minimum for Motor really and Triax 110cm is biggest without a 36V system.

People only want robust 1.2m and bigger dishes second hand if any wit, as these are usually professional and very expensive new. The 2nd hand ordinary dish can be bent or rusted, or arm out of alignment, or cracked LNB mount you can't get replacement for.

I'd not buy a 2nd hand 90cm.
I would buy a 2nd hand 1.8m to 3.6m though.

irishchris

Hi mate
To stop you getting bogged down in too much jargon, here is my basics
I have a vu+ duo also ( 1 feed from my sky dish and one from my motorised dish) my motorised dish is a 90 cm triax dish with the 2600 triax motor. I am using the same wall mount you showed above and it is perfectly fine for a 90cm dish wall mounted with heavy duty bolts. I was also daunted by motorised dish idea when I tried 2 years ago but was a doddle once you get the wall mount level as you can and are prepared for few hours moving dish up and down and left and right to find picture find a strong transponder(bbc world news) at 1 west (situated to the right of position sky dish is facing if standing behind the dish) and begin moving dish till you get a picture.
Also for recording and watching separate channels on ex east is no problem with this setup. Say you watch bbc one the vu+ will use the sky dish feed and if you choose to record another channel eg sky news the vu+ will swing the motorised dish around to allow that.

watty

Depends on exact bracket and which way the wall facing.

Most of those type brackets tear at weld with wind load of 90cm or even weight of Motor + dish.

Also getting that kind of bracket vertical on both axis to accurately track 42E to 45W, if the wall is slightly out of plumb needs elongated holes on bracket and wedges/spacers on top or bottom of plate.

The T and K brackets and a pole are minimum for motorised with 100% chance of success.

Robxxx7

I entered into motorised setup 3 or 4 years ago now ... its worth doing yourself. It maybe a learning curve but its worth giving it a try.

I got hold of a scaffold pole and dug about 3 feet into the ground, put the pole in and filled it with some concrete and ballast (whilst keeping the verticals on the pole all plumb) let it set ...

I currently use a Diseqc motor and a 1m Funke dish (if you do go for a big dish then try not to use a steel one especially if it is over 1m as it could be too heavy for the motor)

i won't go into too much detail from there on as its been covered, but i find that during initial testing and setting up the motor it was easier to do it from ground level rather than up a ladder

Robxxx7

irishchris wrote: »

Hi mate
To stop you getting bogged down in too much jargon, here is my basics
I have a vu+ duo also ( 1 feed from my sky dish and one from my motorised dish) my motorised dish is a 90 cm triax dish with the 2600 triax motor. I am using the same wall mount you showed above and it is perfectly fine for a 90cm dish wall mounted with heavy duty bolts. I was also daunted by motorised dish idea when I tried 2 years ago but was a doddle once you get the wall mount level as you can and are prepared for few hours moving dish up and down and left and right to find picture find a strong transponder(bbc world news) at 1 west (situated to the right of position sky dish is facing if standing behind the dish) and begin moving dish till you get a picture.
Also for recording and watching separate channels on ex east is no problem with this setup. Say you watch bbc one the vu+ will use the sky dish feed and if you choose to record another channel eg sky news the vu+ will swing the motorised dish around to allow that.

Ideally to get the arc you need to try and zoom in on a satellite close to your location. So for Sligo you are looking at around 8w .

dnme

Well I went to bed last night resigned to the fact that I was not gonna bother. Now I read this mornings posts and I'm back i the game....I think.

Listen! Thanks to everyone for the posts here. Loads of information and help. I am very grateful.

I am having a look at this kit
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/80cm-TECHNOMATE-DISH-PACK-450-MOUNT-CABLE-MOTOR-0-1-LNB-/360220354479?pt=UK_ConEle_SatCableFreeview_RL&hash=item53dece67af

I have emailed the guy and asked for a 100cm dish and price. Apparently the Technomate TM2600 is well regarded and a re badged Motek. I would also leave out the mount and go for T&K brackets and a pole from my local hardware/TV shop.