Time for Strike Reform?

Welease

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

So through some sort of redundancy process?
Which the government has not sought so we could not expect to see peoples contract terminated for these reasons!

Did you miss the bit about the 2004 HSE framework and Labour court recommendations????? Would it help if I linked them a few more times?

The government has not sought them.. because wait for it... they cannot get that redundancy process because.. wait for it... the 2004 HSE framework guarantees permanant employment until pensionable age (barring disciplinary proceedings).. and this clause was confirmed as valid per the labour courts recommendation...

cursai

later10 wrote: »

A pension levy is not a pay cut, it's a pension levy. Most people in the private sector pay hefty pension contributions if they wish to enjoy a comfortable retirement. Welcome to your glimpse into the working life of the private sector employee.

An allowance cut, whatever that is, is also not a pay cut. Personally I'm a private sector employee working in an industry that makes its own money by generating profits, so forgive me for asking what exactly an employee allowance is?

Your a saint and a martyr. The country would be infinitely better off with you and your type at the helm.


You don't know seem to know what your talking about so.

RobbieTheRobber

later10 wrote: »

Coincidentally, that's exactly what a clerk in the Department of the Environment told me about a year ago when I was in there enquiring about a business matter for my employer. Do you work in the sector yourself?

Is this type of question not against the forum charter?

paul71

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

So through some sort of redundancy process?
Which the government has not sought so we could not expect to see peoples contract terminated for these reasons!

Are there any other reasons?

An employer does not need another reason Robbie, welcome to the harsh real world of the private sector. 300,000 of us have heard the line, sorry mate we don't have the money for your wages next week bye bye.

Welease

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

I believe that is a very personal question and also completely outside the scope of this discussion.

What difference to that process does the existance or non existance of a personal relationship i might have with an individual bring to bear?

Nothing to do with a personal relationship.. You linked to 34 people who were subject to disciplinary procedures, did you have personal relationships with them all?

You can't provide one person, because such a person doesn't exist...

The HSE under the 2004 framework have guaranteed employment.. deal with it..

RobbieTheRobber

Welease wrote: »

Did you miss the bit about the 2004 HSE framework and Labour court recommendations????? Would it help if I linked them a few more times?

The government has not sought them.. because wait for it... they cannot get that redundancy process because.. wait for it... the 2004 HSE framework guarantees permanant employment until pensionable age (barring disciplinary proceedings).. and this clause was confirmed as valid per the labour courts recommendation...

Suppossing that detail was legally relevant they would still be able to offer voluntary redundancy which they also havent.
So the government has made no effort to get redundancies!

RobbieTheRobber

paul71 wrote: »

An employer does not need another reason Robbie, welcome to the harsh real world of the private sector. 300,000 of us have heard the line, sorry mate we don't have the money for your wages next week bye bye.

Indeed paul but what is relevant is that the government has not sought any redundancies so to expect them when that employer has not sought them is quite an impossible thing!

I dont believe there is a mechanism for me to volunteer for a redundancy scheme which doesnt exist!

RobbieTheRobber

Welease wrote: »

Nothing to do with a personal relationship.. You linked to 34 people who were subject to disciplinary procedures, did you have personal relationships with them all?

What is the relevance of this?

You can't provide one person, because such a person doesn't exist...

What
Provide a person for what?
Be reasonable here what am i suppossed to provide a person for?
What is the criteria for selection of this person?

The HSE under the 2004 framework have guaranteed employment.. deal with it..

Indeed under certain terms, which is usually how employment is provided!

Welease

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Suppossing that detail was legally relevant they would still be able to offer voluntary redundancy which they also havent.
So the government has made no effort to get redundancies!

You really dont have a clue do you... Do you read the papers or watch the news at all?

The HSE have just had a program offering voluntary redundancies...
http://www.hse.ie/eng/staff/ver-vrs/
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/hse-staff-in-last-minute-rush-to-apply-for-redundancy-2428513.html
http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/kfmhsnidgbkf/rss2/
http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/hse-voluntary-redundancy-and-retirement-schemes-announced-479977.html
http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/1220/hse.html
http://www.hse.ie/eng/staff/ver-vrs/pwcpresentation.pdf

RobbieTheRobber

Welease wrote: »

Nothing to do with a personal relationship.. You linked to 34 people who were subject to disciplinary procedures, did you have personal relationships with them all?

You can't provide one person, because such a person doesn't exist...

The HSE under the 2004 framework have guaranteed employment.. deal with it..

Can you please give me a a reason which is not covered by the disciiplinary process why a person might normally have their employment terminated in the private sector?

*Can we please exclude the lack of money, as the state has not sought any redundancies so we cant expect any to have happened!

RobbieTheRobber

Welease wrote: »

You really dont have a clue do you... Do you read the papers or watch the news at all?

The HSE have just had a program offering voluntary redundancies...
http://www.hse.ie/eng/staff/ver-vrs/
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/hse-staff-in-last-minute-rush-to-apply-for-redundancy-2428513.html
http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/kfmhsnidgbkf/rss2/
http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/hse-voluntary-redundancy-and-retirement-schemes-announced-479977.html
http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/1220/hse.html
http://www.hse.ie/eng/staff/ver-vrs/pwcpresentation.pdf

Thank you, I now know of 2800 people who had their employenmt terminated for non disciplinary reasons.

paul71

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Indeed paul but what is relevant is that the government has not sought any redundancies so to expect them when that employer has not sought them is quite an impossible thing!

I dont believe there is a mechanism for me to volunteer for a redundancy scheme which doesnt exist!

Do I have answer the question twice, fear of losing the relevent votes is reason they have not been sought.

And I not talking about voluntery reduncancy I talking about complusory redundancies at the minimum redunancy rates that the private sector has had to make do with.

paul71

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Thank you, I now know of 2800 people who had their employenmt terminated for non disciplinary reasons.

2800 vs 300,000 wow thats impressive.

Count Dooku

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

So seeing as the state has not sought any redundancies the only way we could see terminations is for disciplinary reasons.

Joining PS is like winning in lottery
if public servant will be made redundant for disciplinary reasons, he still will have right for pension, doesn't matter what he did
Tax official imprisoned for fraud holds on to pension

THE tax official sentenced to seven years imprisonment for an ingenious conspiracy to defraud the Revenue Commissioners of £3.8 million will not lose his pension rights.
When Brendan Murphy reaches his 60th birthday, he will receive a lump sum of between £20,000 and £25,000 from the State and thereafter an annual pension of around £14,000 to £15,000.

RobbieTheRobber

paul71 wrote: »

2800 vs 300,000 wow thats impressive.

In what way?

paul71

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Can you please give me a a reason which is not covered by the disciiplinary process why a person might normally have their employment terminated in the private sector?

*Can we please exclude the lack of money, as the state has not sought any redundancies so we cant expect any to have happened!

The only reason you are trying to exclude lack of money is because you know you are on a losing arguement, we can no longer afford to pay PS.

Do you think the IMF, tax receipts and loans from the EU are a botomless pit? Paycheques issued by the government are not immune from bouncing, it happened in California and the week could arrive when your PS paycheque could bounce.

RobbieTheRobber

Count Dooku wrote: »

Joining PS is like winning in lottery
if public servant will be made redundant for disciplinary reasons, he still will have right for pension, doesn't matter what he did
Tax official imprisoned for fraud holds on to pension

I believe there has been changes to legislation to allow them to do so now, that article at over 12 years old isnt particularly relevant today.

Welease

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Thank you, I now know of 2800 people who had their employenmt terminated for non disciplinary reasons.

Trying to converse with you is a waste of time..

The information on "jobs for life" has been provided.
http://www.impact.ie/iopen24/pub/health/framework.pdf

Your refusal to accept this does nothing but to further undermine your credibility as a poster here..
It's black and white for everyone on the thread to read and digest, your constant dancing around the fact wont hide the facts from those who choose to read them.

/shrug

RobbieTheRobber

paul71 wrote: »

The only reason you are trying to exclude lack of money is because you know you are on a losing arguement, we can no longer afford to pay PS.

Do you think the IMF, tax receipts and loans from the EU are a botomless pit? Paycheques issued by the government are not immune from bouncing, it happened in California and the week could arrive when your PS paycheque could bounce.

No paul the reason I want to exclude the financial issue is so we can udnerstand what reasons not covered by the disciplinary process a person could be sacked for in normal employment in a private sector organisation.

Paul can you please refrain from telling me horror stories at night I am not a child you can scare away!

I for one hope the country can correct itself I do not revel in the misery of others, however if you wish to gloat over the potential for another citizen to lose his job and salary then i think I am done repsonding to you.

RobbieTheRobber

Welease wrote: »

Trying to converse with you is a waste of time..

The information on "jobs for life" has been provided.
http://www.impact.ie/iopen24/pub/health/framework.pdf

Your refusal to accept this does nothing but to further undermine your credibility as a poster here..
It's black and white for everyone on the thread to read and digest, your constant dancing around the fact wont hide the facts from those who choose to read them.

/shrug

Jobs for life except in corcumstances covered byt he disciplinary process.

Please see the post previous to this for my clarification on a question i have asked numerous tiems and not been given one proper answer to.

The_Thing

paul71 wrote: »

And I not talking about voluntery reduncancy I talking about complusory redundancies at the minimum redunancy rates that the private sector has had to make do with.

As I have stated in a previous thread were it not for her union my sister and her colleagues would have been left high and dry by her employer when they (the employer - an MNC) tried to fob them off with a minimum redundancy offer.

It took union intervention with the threat of industrial action on their behalf to force the employer to offer a fair deal.

paul71

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

No paul the reason I want to exclude the financial issue is so we can udnerstand what reasons not covered by the disciplinary process a person could be sacked for in normal employment in a private sector organisation.

Paul can you please refrain from telling me horror stories at night I am not a child you can scare away!

I for one hope the country can correct itself I do not revel in the misery of others, however if you wish to gloat over the potential for another citizen to lose his job and salary then i think I am done repsonding to you.

Why Robbie, the horror stories are true, you can life in the little PS fantasy world all you like, the real world is knocking on the door.

RobbieTheRobber

paul71 wrote: »

Why Robbie, the horror stories are true, you can life in the little PS fantasy world all you like, the real world is knocking on the door.

Would it make you happy paul if me or other members of the PS were made redundant or faced with the possiibility of not being able to feed ourselves or our families. Would that cheeer you up?

Becasue you seem to be reveling in that possibility.

As for me paul I would leave the country and would gain employment in the field in which I have vast experience and qualifications, mosy likely with a higher salary than I currently earn here.

paul71

The_Thing wrote: »

As I have stated in a previous thread were it not for her union my sister and her colleagues would have been left high and dry by her employer when they (the employer - an MNC) tried to fob them off with a minimum redundancy offer.

It took union intervention with the threat of industrial action on their behalf to force the employer to offer a fair deal.

They were luckly they were working in a MNC that had enough money to pay the redundancy.

Welease

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Jobs for life except in corcumstances covered byt he disciplinary process.

Please see the post previous to this for my clarification on a question i have asked numerous tiems and not been given one proper answer to.

I have no intention of humouring you with further responses to your pointless questions.. I provided a response to your initial question because I knew where the information was located and you has asked for that information.

In response, I got accused of lying and had continual posts from you showing your lack of understanding of the HSE framework and the voluntary redundancy program..

In short, it's a waste of time responding to your requests, you have no intention of seeking or understanding the actual facts.

kippy

Unions have a place in society.
However, from what I have seen, unions or rather the most vocal members have been a major factor in the biggest issues in the public sector.
That is:
Inefficiency and a severe lack of willingness to change, both of which are required now more than ever.

There is a serious attitude of "management" and "staff/union members" - a real "them" and "us", where one side is continually out to get the other, which of course shouldnt be the case.
This environment is however somewhat nurtured due to some of the absolute ridiculous ways and means that people are promoted (some of the worst managers, both of people and services I have ever encountered are in the public service) within the public service and also through some of the procedures and methods public service systems designers spec out and implement new systems and procedures.

The Unions have been very vocal of late what with all the cuts etc, however a good union would have been far more vocal for its members in the good times, however both the members and indeed the union leaders were doing very well in these times and really couldnt see the longer term issues, but you dont just need to blame unions and their members for this.

RobbieTheRobber

paul71 wrote: »

They were luckly they were working in a MNC that had enough money to pay the redundancy.

Paul see below

Employer's insolvency

In the first instance it is up to the employer to pay the statutory redundancy lump sum to all eligible employees. The Social Insurance Fund (SIF) finances the 60% redundancy rebate payment to employers who pay their eligible employees their full statutory redundancy entitlements. However, where the employer is unable to pay or refuses or fails to pay, the employee can apply for direct payment from the SIF - see 'How to apply' below.

Where your employment has been terminated due to the insolvency of your employer legislation provides for the payment of certain outstanding entitlements in relation to your pay. Under the Insolvency Payments Scheme these may be paid by the Department out of the Social Insurance Fund. There are more details about employers' insolvency legislation in 'Further information' below.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/unemployment_and_redundancy/redundancy/redundancy_payments.html

paul71

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Would it make you happy paul if me or other members of the PS were made redundant or faced with the possiibility of not being able to feed ourselves or our families. Would that cheeer you up?

Becasue you seem to be reveling in that possibility.

As for me paul I would leave the country and would gain employment in the field in which I have vast experience and qualifications, mosy likely with a higher salary than I currently earn here.

No I don't revel in it Robbie, I have lived through it myself. PS pay bill must reduce by 30%, I would rather this happen through pay reductions than reduncancies, but it will happen either by our own will or being forced on us by IMF.

RobbieTheRobber

paul71 wrote: »

No I don't revel in it Robbie, I have lived through it myself. PS pay bill must reduce by 30%, I would rather this happen through pay reductions than reduncancies, but it will happen either by our own will or being forced on us by IMF.

Well Paul my feeling is that its number must be cut, if you try to reduce pay by 30% on average the PS will lose people who have marketable skills as they will leave and seek employment elsewhere, were they will be paid as per their ability.

The loss of such skilled people would not result in overall performance improvements in the PS but quite the opposite.

The_Thing

paul71 wrote: »

They were luckly they were working in a MNC that had enough money to pay the redundancy.

No, you are wrong - they were lucky they had a union that would not let them be made fools of.