New England Patriots thread (MOD WARNING - #4503)

Son Of A Vidic

BizzyC wrote: »

So Bob Kraft claiming they'll be reluctant to spend big money on Talib, pointing to his injury problems as a big concern....

Guess that'll be him hitting the market.

He was always going to hit the market imo. Kraft is spot on, Talib is injury prone and did miss a fair bit of time. And it that's not bad enough it's the games he missed. He missed two AFC title games and him leaving seriously impacted our performance. So like any good owner/business Kraft is right to remind Talib that he should not be expecting top dollar. I think he's going anyway, he got a knock to his knee against the Broncos, goes off to have it checked. Nothing serious/worrying is discovered and he then spends the rest of the game standing around on the sideline. I can tell you, if you can weight bear on a knee for the significant amount of time that he did on the sidelines. Then there is no reason he couldn't have returned imo.

Young Dennard takes a worse hit in that AFC game. Goes off for treatment and gets back on the field as soon as he can. But Talib had no interest in even trying to return to the game and he went down in my estimation. He looked like a man who had an eye on FA and wanted to stay healthy to keep his value raised. Now I want him to stay, but only for the price of a player who's likely to miss 4-6 games a season.

Son Of A Vidic

I see Kyle Arrignton had surgery yesterday on a season long nagging groin injury. No big deal but very interesting when you compare him to Amendola. Some media sources excused Amendola's disappointing play, because of the groin injury he suffered in week 1 of the season. And I said in here a few weeks back, that I'd be interested to see whether Amendola would be having surgery once the season ended. So far there there appears to be no moves on the surgery front. Which leads one to believe that perhaps the injury did clear up and his disappointing season has no excuse to hide behind.

Unfortunately with the cap hit we'd take if he's cut, it looks like we're stuck with him. No doubt most of us will look back in a few years from now, when Brady has hung up his boots and just think. Signing the likes of Amendola (another slot) was our managements attempt at giving Brady an elite target. And I reckon we will all be seriously píssed when we think of how we wasted the GOAT.

Son Of A Vidic

The 2013 salary cap was set at $123 million dollars, so the 2014 salary cap is expected to be somewhere between $123 - $128 million dollars. Here is a list of dead money - money from contracts that will count against the 2014 cap and from contracts that are no longer active.

Tight end Aaron Hernandez: $7,500,000
Defensive tackle Dewayne Cherrington: $667
Cornerback Ras-I Dowling: $589,382
Tight end Daniel Fells: $333,334
Wide receiver Lavelle Hawkins: $75,000
Tight end Zach Sudfeld: $8,000
Fullback Ben Bartholomew: $6,667
Offensive lineman Chris McDonald: $3,334
Defensive end Justin Francis: $2,334
Cornerback Brandon Jones: $2,334
Tight end Brandon Ford: $2,000
Cornerback Stephon Morris: $1,667
Offensive lineman Matt Stankiewitch: $1,667
Long snapper Mike Zupancic: $1,334

Safety Kanorris Davis: $3,334 and Offensive lineman Josh Kline: $2,667 are still on our active team roster. But the only reason they are listed, is because they have dead money remaining from older contracts which preceded their deal.

So our dead money for 2014 totals $8,533,721. Every year a team will have a certain amount of dead money, but ours for 2014 is exceptionally high for us. And just look who's top of the list with $7.5 million wasted.:(

nerd69

sorry if this has been asked but how have the nfl not cut aaron hernandezs salary yet surly the players association couldn't object to it

j8wk2feszrnpao

nerd69 wrote: »

sorry if this has been asked but how have the nfl not cut aaron hernandezs salary yet surly the players association couldn't object to it

I think the Pats are still investigating ways to get the money back, but until the trial concludes I'm not sure what they can do.

TO.

nerd69 wrote: »

sorry if this has been asked but how have the nfl not cut aaron hernandezs salary yet surly the players association couldn't object to it

The big problem here is that Hernandez is not a convicted criminal yet. Add to the fact the Pats cut him before Hernandez gets sentenced if at all means the Pats waived the rights to legally to claiming money back. Common sense would tell us that the Pats did the right thing but when it comes to legal standpoint there isnt really a lot the Pats can do but accept they lost money on him. Look at it this way if Hernandez goes to jail, He will go as a FA and not a Pats player so the Pats technically lose nothing by him being in jail as far as the contract goes. I doubt we will ever see any of that dead money back.

Son Of A Vidic

nerd69 wrote: »

sorry if this has been asked but how have the nfl not cut aaron hernandezs salary yet surly the players association couldn't object to it

Take for example Hernandez's work out bonus money of $82,000 from last summer, Hernandez tried to claim it and the NFLPA backed him, Eh, hello? He didn't fulfill his contractual obligations last summer so he wasn't entitled to it. But they still challenged it and lost thankfully. But that's what you're dealing with sometimes when it comes to the NFLPA. The NFLPA can come across as an incredible shower of muppets and they have been widely criticised for supporting Hernandez in trying to claim money he didn't deserve. But then the NFLPA are obliged to represent players so they don't really have a choice. Regarding the NFL, they are sitting on the facing and keeping out of it for now. And they will remain out of it until the legal process is completed I would imagine.

Right now, the prosecution are currently making an absolute balls of the Lloyd murder case. But in many ways if doesn't matter. To give you an update. If the Pats had of been concerned about money rather than doing the right thing. Then they would have kept Hernandez on the roster even after his arrest, wait until he was charged and incarcerated and then cut him.

Section 9 of the CBA on “Forfeiture of Salary” expressly allows teams to void contracts and recoup bonus money in the case where a player commits a “forfeitable breach” due to incarceration.

You have to realise how stupid this all is. If the Pats had of waited until he was locked up - then the contract is breached and they get the signing bonus back. But because they immediately cut all ties with him as soon as he was arrested. They potentially cost themselves the $12.5 million signing bonus. They were widely commended for how they so swiftly dealt with the scumbag. Mr. Kraft again proving to be a man of high integrity. But it was a bad business move money wise, because it has really hurt our cap. Still I think all Pats fans fully backed Mr. Kraft and the stance he took.

Or to summarise how ridiculous it all is. Lloyd gets murdered - Hernandez is under his new contract - the Pats release him as soon as he is arrested and associated with the murder - tough shít Pats for doing the right thing - ye just cost yourselves $12.5 million dollars because he wasn't incarcerated when he was released.

However, when he was arrested last summer, nobody knew about the other double homicide he was suspected of being involved in. If he is charged with the murder of Abreu and Furtado - and since this occurred before he signed his new contract - then the Pats can recoup the signing bonus because Paragraph 35 of Hernandez’s contract contains a clause where he represents and warrants that there weren't any existing circumstances when he signed his deal that would prevent his continuing availability throughout the contract.

Since this murder occurred before he signed his new contract then he would be in breach of the contract, because he mislead the Pats and misrepresented himself. So if he is charged with this other double murder, then the Pats could recoup lost money.

You see the Falcons were clever, they kept Michael Vicks under contract while he was incarcerated and since he couldn't fulfill his contract while incarcerated. They were able to recoup money. So basically the Pats are potentially being punished for doing the right thing. They put principle before money and if they're punished for that it would be a disgrace. Every franchise and owners everywhere have been rocked by all this. The next time the CBA is up for renegotiation you will see much better protections built into it. To protect franchises from exactly what the Pats are going through right now.

HigginsJ

That is some serious dead money tied up in Hernandez.

In a situation like this would the league GM's not just vote to allow the dead money to be waived from the Pats cap (or is that like asking turkeys to vote for christmas)

nerd69

and how many years did he have guarantied. crazy considering ye could probably get 2 of the top wr free agents for the money being wasted

j8wk2feszrnpao

Regular season 2nd game v Jets.

Ridley returned despite 1st game fumbles.
No Amendola, groin injury.
No Vereen, wrist injury, placed on IR designated to return.

This was a game to forget for the offense.
Pats never ran the ball well all night, only averaged 2.3yds
And we had plenty of drops, Dobson (not knowing where the ball was at times) and Thompkins both showed their rookie status as they also had some good catches. The Jets also had plenty of drops.
Eldelman was the standout, he'd 13 catches and 6 punt returns for 72yds; possibly the only consistent guy all night.
OL did a good job of protecting Tom (2 sacks conceded, but not overly pressured).
The Pats had started well, early TD, but after 6mins we'd 10pts, only 3pts more for the remainder of the game.
We even missed a 43yd FG attempt just before HT.
Ryan Allen punted 11 times in the game (strangely the Jets had no punt returner on two of those punts).

The defence had a good night, only 10pts given up.
The Jets did run the ball well though, 129yds.
But the Pats had repeated pressure on Smith, getting through the Jets OL all night, got 4 sacks and forced Smith out of the pockets on numerous occasions.
The Jets did look good in Q4 to come back, but Smith threw 3 INTS (2 x Talib, 1 x Dennard).
That final INT ended the game, but there was time for two Jets to get ejected from the game!

The second half was rain rain rain.
Overall it was a really poor game of football (Thursday night).

kryogen

Thats my abiding memory of it, a dismal game of ball!

Son Of A Vidic

munstermagic11 wrote: »

This was a game to forget for the offense.

That game sticks in my memory as probably the worst for our passing game all season. The rookies were just totally lost. It'll be interesting to see your game reviews in the weeks ahead, just to see how bad our passing game was against the Jets.

j8wk2feszrnpao

kryogen wrote: »

Thats my abiding memory of it, a dismal game of ball!

I was in the Cannery Row Brewing Company bar in Monterey at the time, drinking a lot of their local brew! So I'd some liquid refreshment to get me through the game

CJC86

So today is the first day the franchise tag can be used. What do people here think are the chances of the Pats using the tag this year? Obviously the two top candidates are Edelman and Talib, but there are obvious downsides to both.

With Edelman the issue is the cost of the WR tag, which is considerably more than you'd like to pay a slot WR. I was delighted when we resigned him last year, but a bit annoyed that it was such a short term deal; but I had no idea he'd break out in the way that he did. I have a feeling that we'll only keep him if we get some salary cap money back from the league that was given to that p***k in jail. I just feel we have too much money tied up in other targets otherwise.

With Talib, the talent isn't an issue. If he could stay fit for the full season, I'm sure Bill would tag him in a second. I could see this one playing out like the Cassel tag in '09. Tag him and trade him. He's got the talent to be a top 5 CB, and someone will want him. That would involve taking a bit of an extra hit though, so could be out of the question.

I think, all things considered, we don't use the tag this year. If I could pick one of the above to keep it would be Edelman, he's just got a massive heart. What are others' thoughts on this?

CJC86

In other news, I just read that Bill was lobbying for Greg Schiano to be hired as Browns coach.

I bet he just wanted him there so we could work out a trade for Josh Gordon. :P

Son Of A Vidic

CJC86 wrote: »

What do people here think are the chances of the Pats using the tag this year?

I would be really surprised if we tagged anyone this year, especially with our limited cap space. If they did use the tag I think the only candidate would be Talib. But I think it's just way to pricey, because tagging Talib would cost $11.256 million in 2014. Then bear in mind this is a guy likely to miss 4-6 games, so it's just not worth it imo.

eagle eye

I think we are going to sign Emmanuel Sanders, we showed interest last year when he was a restricted free agent and I think he would like to come here. He has that leadership quality about him that Belichick loves and he can return kicks too. I think if we get him then its likely that Edelman doesn't come back, it would be nice to have both but I can't see it happening.

eagle eye

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

I would be really surprised if we tagged anyone this year, especially with our limited cap space. If they did use the tag I think the only candidate would be Talib. But I think it's just way to pricey, because tagging Talib would cost $11.256 million in 2014. Then bear in mind this is a guy likely to miss 4-6 games, so it's just not worth it imo.

Only way we keep Talib by the looks of things is if we get him to sign a deal similar in structure to what Amdendola has with the game bonuses built in.

j8wk2feszrnpao

Regular season 3rd game v Tampa Bay (4-12)

The score probably tells the story of the game, a 23:3 win, in which the offense did well enough and the defense had a good day.

While Thompkins had the 2 TD's, it was Dobson that stood out with some good separation and good hands (7 catches for 52yds). He made some big plays at the right time. Edelman also had his usual game, 7 catches for 44yds. But without Gronk, we didn't really have any huge plays (longest catch was for 20yds) against a middle of the bunch defense.
The yards (receiving and rushing) was more or less the same for both teams, but Tampa had Freeman, and we had Brady.

Tom wasn't perfect. He had a few poor throws, particularly late in Q2 when he (under pressure) missed a wide open Dobson in the end zone. And then he (under no pressure) threw a bad INT in the end zone.

We conceded three sacks, 2 in the first quarter, and Tom did have some pressure at moments during the rest of the game, but largely the OL played well. Without the play making ability of Vereen, it was Bolden who stepped up, 51 rushing yards and 49 receiving yards.

Tampa went up 3:0, and it was close heading towards HT at 7:3, but a nice Tom QB sneak kept a drive going which led to a TD. Then with 11 secs left, Talib intercepted an terrible Freeman throw to give the Pats a chance of points before HT, which after a 4yd QB sneak by Tom, Gost added a long FG.

We only added 2 x FG in the second half, but it was more than enough against a poor offense. Credit does have to go to Talib who had a very good game and broke up a number of passes. The defense was solid against the run, conceded a few long passes, but never really looked like they were too troubled.

The Pats had 3 sacks, with a few moments of pressure, but largely Freeman's woes were self inflicted. Think he was benched after the Pats game.

Pats went to 3:0 with the win and were headed to Atlanta next.

Son Of A Vidic

eagle eye wrote: »

I think we are going to sign Emmanuel Sanders, we showed interest last year when he was a restricted free agent and I think he would like to come here. He has that leadership quality about him that Belichick loves and he can return kicks too. I think if we get him then its likely that Edelman doesn't come back, it would be nice to have both but I can't see it happening.

He would be a good signing and it was a pity we didn't land him last year. I know it's impossible because of the $2 million plus loss we would take, but I'd much prefer to keep Edelman and move Amendola on. There's just too many slot WR's on our roster and Edelman is the best one by far for me.

Son Of A Vidic

munstermagic11 wrote: »

The Pats had 3 sacks, with a few moments of pressure, but largely Freeman's woes were self inflicted. Think he was benched after the Pats game.

I think you're right, I remember that game as being the death knell for Freeman's time in Tampa?

j8wk2feszrnpao

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

I think you're right, I remember that game as being the death knell for Freeman's time in Tampa?

Replaced by Mike Glennon.
Then off to Vikings, and ended up behind Ponder and Cassel.
Not sure if anyone will pick him up, not worth the money IMO.

Still, if he never plays again in the NFL, he's picked up a lot of easy money.

kryogen

The only player I could see us tag would be Talib, and I highly doubt it as it would cost too much for a guy who has gone down twice in a row in when he was needed most.

The cap hit is an absolute bitch but I hope whatever wiggle room is there, is spent on giving Tom protection and weapons. A good draft would be nice too of course.

BizzyC

Sanders would be a great addition, but not going to happen.

We really need to trade Amendola...he offers nothing to the offence and eats up way too much cap space compared to other receivers on the depth chart.

j8wk2feszrnpao

Regular season 4th game @ Atlanta (4-12)

It was the second game in a row that we played a team that finished 4-12.
Atlanta didn't commit to the run all season (finished 32nd in rushing yards) and in this game only had 15 rushing plays (and 54 pass attempts) compared to the Pats who had 31 rushing plays (and 31 pass attempts).

Both offensives put up big yardage, 448yds for the Pats and 457 for the Falcons.
It was also the game that Vince went out (in Q1) with his achilles injury.

The Pats offence played well. We ran effectively and it was a big night for Thompkins (6 catches for 127yds, 1TD) and again Edelman (7 catches for 118yds).

The OL had a really good game, no sacks and Tom had little to no pressure during the game. After going 3:0 down in the first quarter, the OL gave Tom lots of time and he found Mulligan in a tiny window for a TD.

Gost then kicked a 48yd FG, before Atlanta came back with a Gonzalez TD. Gonzalez had a huge night, 12 catches for 149yds and 2 TD's. Jones also had a good night with 6 catches for 108yds.

At HT it was 10:10.

Pats came out in the 3rd and 4th quarters and dominated on both sides of the ball.
Pats scored a FG, then backed up on their goal line, Tom hits Thompkins to get to the 50yd line, and then Blount takes it to the endzone, Pats up 20:10.
Then Tom to Thompkins for a TD, and the Pats led 27:13.
Talib (who had an excellent night with an INT and multiple passes broken up) intercepted Ryan and the Pats got a FG to lead 30:13 with just 6mins left.

The Pats defence had a good night up to this point (2 sacks and some pressure at times), but a successful onside kick and a botched snap, both changed things.
Falcons came back with a TD, 30:20. They then attempted the onside kick (just 4mins left) which Sudfeld (with his last bit of Patriots action) screwed up and the Falcons got the ball which led to a FG.
Falcons tried another onside kick, but Hooman did his job.
Pats were running the ball, but ball spot by the officials (even after review), and then a fumbled snap (on 4th down) by Tom gave the Falcons the ball back.

Ryan launched a bomb to Jones for 50yds (poor safety play by McCourty) and the Falcons were on the Pats 15yd line with 60secs remaining.
But on 4th down, Talib broke up a pass to White and the Pats could take a knee to move to 4:0 (first time since the 2007 season), and we could breath a sign of relief.

Next was a trip to Cincinnati.

TO.

Just saw our cap space is something like 4.5m. Reading a few articles we can't even cover all of our draft picks if we use every pick in the draft. I don't know how true or the exact figures but if 4.5m is true we are fooked.

nerd69

TO. wrote: »

Just saw our cap space is something like 4.5m. Reading a few articles we can't even cover all of our draft picks if we use every pick in the draft. I don't know how true or the exact figures but if 4.5m is true we are fooked.

iv herd a few rumors of vince wilfork being cut didn't believe them at the time but if ye are this stuck maby. although i think he may take a pay cut rather than leave

TO.

nerd69 wrote: »

iv herd a few rumors of vince wilfork being cut didn't believe them at the time but if ye are this stuck maby. although i think he may take a pay cut rather than leave

Wilfork will take a cut and apparently Mankins is open to a cut also. Wendell would like to re-sign with the Pats on a lower contract also.

On an interesting note I was reading a story about should the Pats dump Gostowski and gamble on a cheaper option considering his cap space will be $3.8 this season. Dude made a good argument about getting rid of him and gambling on a rookie or free agent but then made a better argument why we should keep him:

Gostkowski's kicks, 2011–2013
Year

---

First three quarters

---

Fourth quarter/OT
2011

---

27/32 (84.4%)

---

6/6 (100%)
2012

---

19/24 (79.2%)

---

13/14 (92.9%)
2013

---

23/26 (88.5%)

---

16/16 (100%)
Totals

---

69/82 (84.1%)

---

35/36 (97.2%)

TO.

I never realised back in January we signed Jonas Gray who spent 2013 on the Ravens practice squad to a future contract.

Son Of A Vidic

nerd69 wrote: »

iv herd a few rumors of vince wilfork being cut didn't believe them at the time but if ye are this stuck maby. although i think he may take a pay cut rather than leave

His cap hit is $11.6 million in 2014 = $7.5 million salary + £0.5 million in workout bonuses and the remaining $3.6 million is part of his ongoing signing bonus. If he's cut it would save $8 million, but there's no way he'll be cut. Vince is a leader on and off the field and one of the very, very, few players that Bill would even allow to travel with the team while on IR. He'll sign a 2-3 extension and save us about $3.5 - 4 million this year.

I also expect the same type of money saving contract extensions to be applied to Mayo and Mankins for 2014 . Working on the Wilfork, Mayo and Mankins contracts should get our cap space up to about $11.5 - 12 million dollar mark for 2014.