Buying a 17' Sailboat - Advice needed

Dr Pepper

Hi,

I'm getting a small sailboat in the near future and I'm trying to decide what to go for. Here are some of my main requirements:
- I want a boat that I can keep on a trailer and launch/retrieve same day ('trailer sailor' I think is the term). I don't want the hassle & expense of keeping the boat permanently in the water and I want to be able to drive to different lakes & coastal locations for day-trip sailing.
- A good stable boat that's unlikely to capsize in rough seas/winds.
- I tend to plan 'expeditions' when sailing instead of just hanging around near one port. I'd like to travel up/down the coast a little bit and I'd like a boat that's capable/reliable in the open sea.
- Low maintenance! The less gadgets and equipments, the better in some ways (toilets, stoves, fridges are not needed right now) but I would like to be able to sleep on board occasionally.
- Budget is probably a little over 2,000 which seems to be enough for what I'm looking at.

I've narrowed the search down to the following 3 boats:

Leisure 17 - http://yachts.apolloduck.ie/display.phtml?aid=157536
I am attracted to this for it's good reputation (Atlantic crossing!) and solid/stable looking bilge keel. Plus there seem to be plenty of them available. However, I'm worried that the big bulky bilge keel will make launching/retrieving an ordeal. Am I right in assuming this could be tricky and downright impossible in slips that are not long/deep enough? Plus, I've only got a 1.6L petrol VW Passat so is this boat feasible at all?

Shipmate Senior - http://yachts.apolloduck.ie/display.phtml?aid=180865
This is a less-common boat (only 100 built afaik, 2 currently for sale in Dublin). Seems to have a fairly good reputation among owners and it looks nice and slim/light compare to the Leisure for launching. My only concern is that it might be a bit too light. I've read that they handle a bit like a dinghy so I'm wondering if they would stand up to slightly rougher conditions if needed.

Small Craft - Senator 500(?) - http://www.adverts.ie/boats-accessories/5m-small-yacht/399681
I like the look of this one (bit more modern-looking) and the 'self-draining' part sounds attractive. I don't know much else about it and can't find any info online for the make/model the seller has given me, so it's a bit of an unknown.

I've been mostly sailing dinghy's up until now but I have some experience crewing on bigger boats. I don't capsize very often on the dinghy but have gotten caught out once or twice on very windy days. I'm concerned about capsizing on one of the above boats - How common are capsizes on these types of boat? How hard is it to right a boat like these at sea? If righted, is it going to end up being swamped with water?

One more point - These first 2 boats are of the late 1970's. Are there no newer boats of a similar spec available? How important a factor is the age of a sailboat?

I'd be glad to hear any input, especially if you have experience of any of the above boats.

Cheers,
Brian

Tabnabs

My favourite subject, recommend me a boat!

I have owned two Leisures (the 23 and currently a 27) and they are first class cruising boats.

Having said that, if looking for a trailer sailor then you'd probably be better off looking at lifting keel boats. Also, you're budget is fairly low and for that kind of money you're going to get an old boat with old and tired gear (including engine if any). That's before you consider if a proper road trailer is included in the price. You would even struggle to get a good cruising dinghy with that amount.

Looking at apolloduck, the market is fairly dead at the moment and there isn't a lot being advertised. Even when you extend the search to the UK the pickings are slim for your budget.

To go over your current choices, the L17, a cracking little boat, but may not be the best trailer sailor in the world.

The Shipmate is only 16' and that's very small for coastal sailing. Probably not great for an inexperienced skipper. But would be my pick to give serious consideration to.

The Senator is equally small and I'd have the same reservations.

Again with your budget, the late 70s is probably about the newest you'll get and the later the poorer the condition. However, this was the golden era of British yacht manufacturing and these boats were built to last.

Another boat worth considering is the Westerly Nimrod . They tend to go for not a lot of money and are well regarded by their owners. There was a lovely series in one of the yachting magazine a few years ago about a guy who trailered the boat round Scotland and sailed remote spots.

In the mean time, I recommend you get this book to whet your appetite for small boat sailing.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sailing-Just-Fun-Adventure-Budget/dp/0953818063

fergal.b

I was just posting a boat for sale in adverts.ie and saw this.
http://www.adverts.ie/boats-accessories/5m-small-yacht/399681

Dr Pepper

Hi Tabnabs,

Thanks very much for that. I can stretch the budget to whatever is required but I just thought that since there were 3 or 4 boats available near enough that price, that I would be able to whittle one down to about 2,000. Plus, all of the ones I was looking at seem to include outboard and trailer, although quality of these can vary widely of course. I have a little rib/tender at home with a 5hp mercury so can use that if necessary. Plus I have a fairly heavy duty trailer that I currently use for the Pico so that might come in handy too.

Although it seems to be the best of them, I've pretty much ruled out the Leisure 17 because the weight, bulk and bilge keel make it impractical, if not impossible, to trailer launch regularly.

So I'm down to 2 similar boats. I rang the guy about the Shipmate Senior and he gave me some good tips on trailer sailors. He agrees it's a fairly light boat and really not suitable for much above force 5 - which is probably just as well for the moment ;-) He says it sails like a large dinghy with a lid! He also said the swing keel is ideal because if you hit something, it will just swing back clear and then slide down again (instead of the hard jolt and possible damage you'd get with a fixed/lifting keel). Another thing that appeals to me about the Shipmate is that there seems to be an enthusiastic owner's association in the UK who release a magazine which could be useful for maintenance advice. I'm going to look at this boat tomorrow evening so I'll let you know how that goes.

Depending on how that viewing goes and what price I can negotiate, I might take the trip down to Tralee to check out the Senator, which as far as I can see, is a similar boat. I slightly prefer the look of the Senator to be honest - not as 'old-person-ish' as the Shipmate Senior!

Cheers fergal.b - That's one of the ones I'm looking at alright.

ISAW

Dr Pepper wrote: »

Hi Tabnabs,
I just thought that since there were 3 or 4 boats available near enough that price, that I would be able to whittle one down to about 2,000.

first of all advertisements mostly happen at the start and end of the season so expect to see more after Easter and the end of the summer.

I would consider abroad if I were you particularly UK - Ill explain why later.
I would also consider if you will keep it at home or have a yard for it.
I am assuming you will. otherwise add in 500- 2k yearly storage/berthing
dont forget if you cruise say to Arklow or carlingford you wil lhave to pay overningt fees and this will have to be costed in.
Also you will have to cost in painting cleaning fittings etc. again max 500 a year.
I would consider 19-23 feet if you want to coastal cruise. You need something capable of taking say force 5 or 6. I'd also consider lifting keel for trailering and also look into de stepping mast and how easy that is in case you want to get into the canal system. You can go From ringsend to the shannon and up into Northern Ireland if you want.
then you have to consider comfort.
A breakback trailer or an extension for launching might come in handy.

I wouldnt go near even coastal cruising without redio flares and maybe a liferaft.
You should also consider a four berth sionce one berth is usually covered in "stuff2 and if you are cruising singlehanded it isnt a good idea.


I got a 23 footer last year from the UK
You can ferry them over without a car if you can get the vendor to drive it to the port.
Costs about 30 a meter to get to Ireland that's about 150 -250 Euro

Plus, all of the ones I was looking at seem to include outboard and trailer, although quality of these can vary widely of course. I have a little rib/tender at home with a 5hp mercury so can use that if necessary. Plus I have a fairly heavy duty trailer that I currently use for the Pico so that might come in handy too.

Take a look at this guy for example:
http://www.andyseedhouseboats.co.uk/sales/boatlist2008.php?cat=1

Here is a sunstar:
http://www.boatsandoutboards.co.uk/view/PAA11728
Hurley's you might also consider.
And Jaguar's.
Here is a vivacity but look into the law regarding four wheel trailers for towing
http://www.boatsandoutboards.co.uk/view/F218144

I have a good few similar links in the UK. The extra cost of transport is maybe 200-400 as "unsupervised freight" maybe less if you drive there and pick up yourself.

Although it seems to be the best of them, I've pretty much ruled out the Leisure 17 because the weight, bulk and bilge keel make it impractical, if not impossible, to trailer launch regularly.

Yeah but are you
1. driving there and launching for the day or
2. coastal cruising?

If you want to coastal cruise on the west coast you can at least beech a bilge keel boat and sleep in it.


Oh and if you do go abroad VAT may applies to boats after 1985 I think so a 1970s boat isnt bad if you don't need to pay tax.

murphym7

I don’t think any of the these boats tick all the boxes on your requirements list.

I would not fancy sailing any of them along the coast for an expedition, unless the weather was very favorable, they all have very low free board which can give squeaky ass syndrome at times!

The only one I would consider sleeping on would be the Leisure 17, both of the others are totally unsuitable, they would be considered “camping” style accommodation. You would do it once and never do it again because of the misery involved. In fact you would not be doing too much sleeping on the Leisure 17 either.


The last two are best suited to trailer sailing, the bilge keel of the leisure 17 is easy to launch a recover – at the start and end of the season – you would quickly get a pain in your arse doing that every week.

I’m selling a Hunter 490 – but this is also unsuitable for your requirements, if you up your budget you will find something that ticks all the boxes, not at 2 – 2.5k though.

Let us know what you continue to look at though so we can all give are “expert” opinions, we love that!:D

Tabnabs

In case you haven't seen it, the Leisure Owners Association is one of the better ones around.

www.leisureowners.org.uk

Dr Pepper

Thanks very much for the tips lads. I'm starting to realise that the type of boat that is light/small enough to be easily launched from a trailer is not the type of boat that you want to take on long coastal cruises! The trailer-aspect is still the most important factor for me though - spending a large proportion of the value of the boat on storage/mooring per year is not appealing, plus I want the freedom of being able to try out different locations. I have a large gated driveway at the side of the house and a large garage (not mine - just a rental unfortunately!) so year-round storage at home is not a problem.

I take on board the concerns about heavy weather sailing and I think I'll just stick to Dublin Bay, plus a few harbours North & South of it for this year at least and build up my experience of cruiser sailing. By the time I'm ready to go further, I'll probably be looking at upgrading to a 23ft+ boat and getting myself a Summer mooring somewhere. I just bought a VHF radio and am planning on doing a course on it ASAP. The flares I will have to get alright. A life-raft would be great for peace of mind. Any recommendations? I have a 3.1 meter inflatable Zodiac at home but when inflated, I'm fairly sure it would be far too big to sit anywhere on the deck of a 16-17 footer. Towing a Zodiac (on that water) would probably out of the question I assume. Is there anything self-inflating on the market that can be used for this purpose?

The sleeping-over aspect is not that important to me either. It would only be a bit of a novelty thing that I would try once or twice. I've been camping all my life so a bit of hardship would be nothing new

ISAW - Thanks for having a look at UK boats for me but I'm really not interested in the hassle. I'm not even inclined to go down to check out that Senator boat in Tralee unless I can't find something similar here. If I was spending €10,000+ on something, I would consider the UK market but I don't think it would be worth my while for a small purchase like this.

murphym7 wrote: »

...they all have very low free board which can give squeaky ass syndrome at times!...

What's is this all about murphym7? I don't follow your lingo

I'm probably looking at this Shipmate Senior this evening so I'll let you know how that goes.

If anybody's reading this thread with a view to buying a similar boat, here are a couple of pages I found useful:
http://www.shortypen.com/boats/pocket/
http://www.shortypen.com/boats/pocket/advice.htm

murphym7

Freeboard is the distance from the waterline to the deck level/gunwale of a boat. Low freeboard becomes a problem with moderate to high sea's, risk of swamping.

Dr Pepper

Got ya, thanks. Maybe I won't put away my wetsuit and booties just yet then

Anybody got any tips for inspecting this boat? I've looked up some websites but anything I've found is either far too detailed, not detailed enough or just not relevant to this type of boat. My plan so far is:

• have a good root around - open all hatches & lockers and have a good look inside
• lift all cushions and have a good look around the cabin
• look all over for signs of leaks, damn, rot, rust
• inspect hull for dents, cracks, scratches, general paint condition, anti-fouling
• move everything that's supposed to move and make sure things that aren't supposed to move, don't!
• examine swing keel movement and seals/attachment
• I suppose I'll have to start the outboard and make sure that runs ok. My Dad is probably coming with me to check that out. He has some experience with outboards. Hopefully the seller will have a wheelie bin full of water or similar testing facility!
• check the sails although I don't know much about inspecting them beyond a visual examination.
• check all standing & running rigging
• take plenty of pictures and ask plenty of questions

ISAW

Dr Pepper wrote: »

Thanks very much for the tips lads. I'm starting to realise that the type of boat that is light/small enough to be easily launched from a trailer is not the type of boat that you want to take on long coastal cruises!

If you buy a boat it will need upkeep and storage.
My club are 460 a year for a family or 340 individual and you get free storage with that. If you can trailer it yourself that costs nothing but a lift in or lift out on a crane costs about 150. Mine is a lifting keel but the majority are bilgers, mainly because the harbour is tidal. the drawback is that depending on boat size ( the biggst is 34 foot and about 9 tons) you have an hour to two and a half either side of a very low tide that you can't move her.

We are an hour sailing from Dun Laoghaire and maybe two from Howth or Dublin city. 5 mins walk from Bray Dart. Plenty of parking.

So basically for 1000 a year the boat is housed cleaned painted and you get family membership of a club. And an anchorage ( different group and costs 150 a year).

There is also bar showers/changing rooms, and functions as well as social activities like bridge and quizzes. and loads of junk! I mean bits of stainless steel and such in stores which came in handy for putting on an eyebolt for legs. I even got lent a bit to drill the stainless and broke it and the guy said "no bother". the club manager made me Aluminum legs to keep the boat upright on full tide. cost 20 Euro! Very handy club.

They also run a sea school and you get discounts on courses yacht, radio, sea survival, first aid etc.

The trailer-aspect is still the most important factor for me though - spending a large proportion of the value of the boat on storage/mooring per year is not appealing, plus I want the freedom of being able to try out different locations. I have a large gated driveway at the side of the house and a large garage (not mine - just a rental unfortunately!) so year-round storage at home is not a problem.

Fair enough. But if you trade up to a 28 foot plus a lift in or drive in from the sea is handy for wintering.

I take on board the concerns about heavy weather sailing and I think I'll just stick to Dublin Bay, plus a few harbours North & South of it for this year at least and build up my experience of cruiser sailing.

Where are you?
Im looking for crew. I joined to cruise but will probably race Saturdays. Different times depending on tide. You could learn to handle a boat that way. then think about buying end of season or beginning next season. Why not come down to the club for a chat and take a look around?

By the time I'm ready to go further, I'll probably be looking at upgrading to a 23ft+ boat and getting myself a Summer mooring somewhere. I just bought a VHF radio and am planning on doing a course on it ASAP.

Again we do those . I'm waiting on one soon as well I think they may need numbers so you are welcome to do the same one.

The flares I will have to get alright. A life-raft would be great for peace of mind. Any recommendations?

Rafts are for offshore safety and come custom built and have EPIRBS fitted. They wil cost in the 1000 region.

Is there anything self-inflating on the market that can be used for this purpose?

Get an old oppy or similat tender for 100-150.

look at the bottom of this list: ( not saying go to the UK just for an idea of the 7 foot six thing)
http://www.andyseedhouseboats.co.uk/sales/boatlist2008.php?cat=8

The sleeping-over aspect is not that important to me either. It would only be a bit of a novelty thing that I would try once or twice. I've been camping all my life so a bit of hardship would be nothing new

But if you want cruising crew you should think about it. Cruising singlehanded isn't advisable. And sleeping at anchor isn't either so you need to ground the boat or berth is. Specifically if you are on the west coast and not near a marina or just like the look of a beach and don't want to motor ten miles to get to a mooring/pub.

ISAW - Thanks for having a look at UK boats for me but I'm really not interested in the hassle.

You can get a UK surveyor to look it over for 200 and get the owner to deliver it to say Liverpool for say 50 and getit over to Ireland for say 150 - that's an extra 400 and little or no hassle. As I said wait til maybe march and the offers come up1

the site I listed had a four berth 19 footer with sails listed for 250 and some listed for 1)00 - 1250. It is just a question of whether the 400 extra giving you more choice and maybe lower price.

Tabnabs

Don't bother with a liferaft, that's money you don't need to spend for a trailer sailer. If you were sailing out of the sight of land then yes, but otherwise a good lifejacket and oilskins will serve you well. If you were super cautious, then a second hand survival suite (ex north sea rigs usually) would be sufficient for coastal stuff.

I second your thoughts on buying from the UK. For high value stuff, yes absolutely, but for anything under 10k it's probably not worth it. You would be very lucky to get the first boat surveyed well. If there are problems, do you negotiate over the phone? What if the guy doesn't want to drive it to Liverpool or Holyhead? There are too many variables to my mind.

The other beauty of buying closer to home is that you should ideally get a sail on the boat you want before handing over the cash. See how she handles, is the current owner happy to demonstrate that the engine will start on the first pull as he says it will. Will the sails have a large tear in them that being in a sail bag won't identify. Stuff like that.

This is very much the off season and January the depths of that period. If you can wait, you'll have more choice from mid March on.

Golden rule is; if you are a boat owner, the two happiest days of your life are the day you buy and the day you sell. It's very important to buy a boat that will sell without too much problems also!

Dr Pepper

Thanks ISAW. I live in Dunboyne, Co Meath, but have travelled to most ports on the Dublin coast for dinghy sailing or crewing at one time or another (and some of the midlands lakes). I used to be a member in Clontarf but am put off re-joining because off the tide restrictions. It's hard enough to find a few hours to get out when you have the right wind/weather without having to add tidal limitations to the mix. But I think you are talking about Bray club where the tide is probably not so limiting as it is in Clontarf. I don't know, I'm not too keen on the club scene right now. I know that there's a great social scene and plenty of advice and help to be had but I'm mainly keen to get out practising at times that suit me. Club membership ain't too cheap either although that depends on how much you use it. If you're out racing or club sailing twice a week and going to most of the social events, it's great value, but if, like me, you would go along maybe 10 times in the season, it works out fairly expensive per visit. Thanks for the crewing invitation. I'll see how I get on with the two boats I'm currently looking at and get back to you if I'm up for some more crewing.

It would be nice to hook up with other boards sailors some time. Do you guys ever organise meets? We could make it bring your own boat if you have one, or a lifejacket if you want to come out and give it a try?

Tabnabs - Cheers - I'll try and get an introductory sail out of the seller as part of the bargain.

ISAW

Dr Pepper wrote: »

Got ya, thanks. Maybe I won't put away my wetsuit and booties just yet then

Anybody got any tips for inspecting this boat? I've looked up some websites but anything I've found is either far too detailed, not detailed enough or just not relevant to this type of boat. My plan so far is:

• have a good root around - open all hatches & lockers and have a good look inside
• lift all cushions and have a good look around the cabin
• look all over for signs of leaks, damn, rot, rust
• inspect hull for dents, cracks, scratches, general paint condition, anti-fouling
• move everything that's supposed to move and make sure things that aren't supposed to move, don't!
• examine swing keel movement and seals/attachment
• I suppose I'll have to start the outboard and make sure that runs ok. My Dad is probably coming with me to check that out. He has some experience with outboards. Hopefully the seller will have a wheelie bin full of water or similar testing facility!
• check the sails although I don't know much about inspecting them beyond a visual examination.
• check all standing & running rigging
• take plenty of pictures and ask plenty of questions

Like a car does he have the service record (reciepts for the rigging motor etc.)
Does the boat have a logbook showing miles and hours sailing?
How much is insurance? service record of trailer.

the guy I bought from was almost anal with the pristine condition of the stuff. The first think he asked me was if I was wearing hard shoes as he didn't want it marked. Reciepts even from the previous owner. Original boxes and manuals of the GPS, Depth sounder, trailer etc. I knew then he had looked after it. Particularly check standing and running rigging reciepts. Ask about de-masting procedures and demast/mast it as she sits.

She looks fine. with a two wheel trailer you don't need a fancy licence.

They aren't really serious cruisers though. Think about trading up in a few years.

http://www.tradboat2.co.uk/editorial/cruisers.htm

Also think about getting the kit like raft , GPS, anchors, radio antenna etc.

http://www.sailingusa.info/design_winds.htm
You might be interested to know top speed ( knots) is related to about 1.3 to 1.5 times waterline length in feet. so a 16 foot LOA boat with a 14 foot LWL tops out at 5 knots whereas a 24 footer with 22-23 LWL will do 6.5 knots. On a six hour cruse with two knots of tide against you/with you that a difference of the smaller boat doing 18-38 miles compared to 29-49 miles . That the difference of getting to Arklow or Waterford or facing into six hours of tide to get 18 miles or turn round and go home. North of Dublin after Balbriggan the tides are slacker .

Do you not think crewing for a season is a smart option? Not that it has to be with me or anything.
Take a look here and see what you might pick up
http://www.cruising.ie/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=295:dun-laoghaire-harbour-boat-jumble&catid=22:other-events&Itemid=71
http://www.cruising.ie/

the raft comment was for channel crossing or offshore cruising in a bigger boat.
But you can get an epirb for 2-300

I came across this for 1900 - a 19 footer in Dun Laoghaire
http://yachts.apolloduck.ie/display.phtml?aid=179640

Is a fin keel but has a trailer.

http://www.apolloduck.ie/display.phtml?aid=156013
a 27 footer for 2k?

ISAW

Dr Pepper wrote: »

I live in Dunboyne, Co Meath,
It would be nice to hook up with other boards sailors some time. Do you guys ever organise meets? We could make it bring your own boat if you have one, or a lifejacket if you want to come out and give it a try?

You could join Skerries or Rush. That region is handy for slackness. And it is nearer to the Isle of Mann but again I would not try it with such a size boat. Then again coribees are known for round Britian and Ireland and even round the world.
http://corribee.org/for-sale-and-wanted/
http://www.go-sail.co.uk/corribee.asp

http://www.apolloduck.ie/display.phtml?aid=156013
a 27 footer for 2k?

checking out the cruising association link.
www.cruising.ie

Here is an Idea. We ( or some other group maybe the crusing association or Clontarf) may be heading to Carlingford this year for a weekend. You could launch in slack water and join a flotilla on the way up.
http://www.inyourfootsteps.com/sailing/harbours/europe/ireland/meath/109/warrenpoint
Malahide: 38 nm
Dublin: 44 nm

that's about 30 Rush to Carlingford. 5 knots six hours. More like 4 knots 8 hours


Look up advantages /disadvantages of trailer sailers here:
http://www.go-sail.co.uk/trailerintro.asp

Dr Pepper

Hi ISAW,

Thanks once again for all of those tips. A lot of interesting reading there, some of which I'll have to browse in the coming weeks. Those Coribee's look very solid, and I'll keep them in mind for the next boat. Is there anywhere online that I can find info on the group sail to Warrenpoint? I would be interested in trying a shortened version as you suggest, and I might just be really cheeky and drive all the way up to Clogher Head to launch What time of year is it likely to occur? I'd be dependent on moderate winds for the weekend if I do go for one of the intended trailer sailors.

Good article about the pro/cons of 'trailer sailor-ing'. One other con to add is that if you have a boat that is light and small enough to be easily launched from a trailer, then you probably have a boat that is not intended for the open seas in anything much above a force 4 (closer to dinghy than cruiser in this regard from what I've gathered on this thread!).

Cheers,
Brian

dory

Be sure to pop back on the thread if you're looking for some crew.

ingen

Dr Pepper wrote: »

Hi,

I'm getting a small sailboat in the near future and I'm trying to decide what to go for. Here are some of my main requirements:
- I want a boat that I can keep on a trailer and launch/retrieve same day ('trailer sailor' I think is the term). I don't want the hassle & expense of keeping the boat permanently in the water and I want to be able to drive to different lakes & coastal locations for day-trip sailing.
- A good stable boat that's unlikely to capsize in rough seas/winds.
- I tend to plan 'expeditions' when sailing instead of just hanging around near one port. I'd like to travel up/down the coast a little bit and I'd like a boat that's capable/reliable in the open sea.
- Low maintenance! The less gadgets and equipments, the better in some ways (toilets, stoves, fridges are not needed right now) but I would like to be able to sleep on board occasionally.
- Budget is probably a little over 2,000 which seems to be enough for what I'm looking at.

I've narrowed the search down to the following 3 boats:

Leisure 17 - http://yachts.apolloduck.ie/display.phtml?aid=157536
I am attracted to this for it's good reputation (Atlantic crossing!) and solid/stable looking bilge keel. Plus there seem to be plenty of them available. However, I'm worried that the big bulky bilge keel will make launching/retrieving an ordeal. Am I right in assuming this could be tricky and downright impossible in slips that are not long/deep enough? Plus, I've only got a 1.6L petrol VW Passat so is this boat feasible at all?

Shipmate Senior - http://yachts.apolloduck.ie/display.phtml?aid=180865
This is a less-common boat (only 100 built afaik, 2 currently for sale in Dublin). Seems to have a fairly good reputation among owners and it looks nice and slim/light compare to the Leisure for launching. My only concern is that it might be a bit too light. I've read that they handle a bit like a dinghy so I'm wondering if they would stand up to slightly rougher conditions if needed.

Small Craft - Senator 500(?) - http://www.adverts.ie/boats-accessories/5m-small-yacht/399681
I like the look of this one (bit more modern-looking) and the 'self-draining' part sounds attractive. I don't know much else about it and can't find any info online for the make/model the seller has given me, so it's a bit of an unknown.

I've been mostly sailing dinghy's up until now but I have some experience crewing on bigger boats. I don't capsize very often on the dinghy but have gotten caught out once or twice on very windy days. I'm concerned about capsizing on one of the above boats - How common are capsizes on these types of boat? How hard is it to right a boat like these at sea? If righted, is it going to end up being swamped with water?

One more point - These first 2 boats are of the late 1970's. Are there no newer boats of a similar spec available? How important a factor is the age of a sailboat?

I'd be glad to hear any input, especially if you have experience of any of the above boats.

Cheers,
Brian

ok, well i knew of a chap once that went from co Louth to the IOM in a leisure 17.... mad.

edit, this is defo over your budget, but have you looked at the beneteau first 211? i had one of these a few years ago, and it could sail real close to the wind, also its RCD rating B.. retractable iron keel, 1.8M very solid and stable under sail, and also a very fast boat. i used mine for crusing, up to carlingford, down to rosslare, IOM, fantastic boat, its worlds apart from what you mention above. it has a double berth up front, and two side berths, comes with a sink, table, plently of stowage, also if tide goes out, she can just sit on the sand.

i think the boats that you mention might be a little small, its amazing the difference a foot or 2 makes in a boat.. also a lot depends on the weather,

i have since upgraded to a much larger bene , electric winches, bow thrusters, etc but i miss the fun of the 211...

the 211 is a fantastic boat. check it out... here is a youtube vid of one

also the honda 4 stroke 5hp engine with built in charging alternator suits the boat perfect, ie you can charge your onboard batteries with the engine, also engine is simple to service yourself, oil changes are easy, and gearbox oil changes easy too.

i think that the boats you have listed above are too small, well only really suited to short esturary sailing, nothing far, also as they are quite small and hull speed very low.


to work out hull speed..

Hull speed (knots) = 1.34 times the square root of the waterline length (in feet), or 2.43 times the square root of the waterline length (in metres)

This corresponds, roughly, to the speed of a (non-breaking) surface wave whose wavelength is equal to the boat's waterline, in infinitely deep water

gives you an idea of what speed a certain length of craft might do.

but, and there is always a but...... you will have a pain in your hole, destepping the mast, setting the boat up, rigging, engine, towing trailer, launching and recovering, ( dont forget tides), etc.

i would recommend you keep it on a marina berth, would cost say €3,000 to €3500 for a 6.4 M boat, but worth it, as then you can sleep on it, some nights over the summer, full facilities in the marina, and when your finished your sailing for the day, just tie her up in marina and drive home, and no farting about with trailers, washing trailers down, wheel bearings on trailer etc etc...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1On2yNySbZ0

here are some 21.7's sailing, basically the newer model of the 211, but the same boat.

ISAW

Dr Pepper wrote: »

. Is there anywhere online that I can find info on the group sail to Warrenpoint?

the cruising.ie group is free to join. You could keep an eye on yacht club sites near you e.g. Howth malahide etc. or get a list of cruising committee members. Some of our lot werer thinking from Bray to Carlingford in June/July. They usually head to Carenarvon, Wales ( just at the bottom of the Menai Strait). They will pass you and leave you behind in a 17 footer on a cruise so plan to set out ahead of them but the advantage is that you are in radio contact if you need help and you get to meet up in the evenings. Carlingford to Warrenpoint is less then a hour in a sheltered bay. I think if you did such a short cruise from Balbriggan and roungd the bay for the weekend you would know why 17 footers are not suited for doing this type of cruise but handier for creek crawling or canal hopping.

ingen

ISAW wrote: »

the cruising.ie group is free to join. You could keep an eye on yacht club sites near you e.g. Howth malahide etc. or get a list of cruising committee members. Some of our lot werer thinking from Bray to Carlingford in June/July. They usually head to Carenarvon, Wales ( just at the bottom of the Menai Strait). They will pass you and leave you behind in a 17 footer on a cruise so plan to set out ahead of them but the advantage is that you are in radio contact if you need help and you get to meet up in the evenings. Carlingford to Warrenpoint is less then a hour in a sheltered bay. I think if you did such a short cruise from Balbriggan and roungd the bay for the weekend you would know why 17 footers are not suited for doing this type of cruise but handier for creek crawling or canal hopping.

17 ft is too small... as ISAW said, you will be left behind... however depending on boat choice, and what sort of craft you are sailing with..

for example, when i had the Bene 211, i was sailing along with other bigger boats, eg 27 to 30 footers, however they were older boats, and as the 211 was more efficient in light airs, and could sail closer to the wind, i left them behind..

2 good solid " trailer sailers" are the Beneteau 211 ( new model called first 21.7) and the etap 21i.




ETAP 21i


the yachting magazines do good reviews of trailer sailers... go for a bit of comfort and safety and dont go for a boat smaller, than 21/22ft LOA.


here is pic of a bene 211



the first 211 can easily be sailed single handed.

Tabnabs

And the 211 is €12-16k, just a tad further north than the OPs budget

Just to pay devils advocate for a minute, they are also incredibly light, hence the light air performance when compared to bigger older boats. But when the winds gets up to a force 4+, I know which boat I'd be rather not be in.

OP, I'd advise having a think about realistically what you'll be using the boat for in the next 2/3 years and go with that option. Before you get sucked into paying out big money for relatively little return.

ISAW

ingen wrote: »

17 ft is too small... as ISAW said, you will be left behind... however depending on boat choice, and what sort of craft you are sailing with..

for example, when i had the Bene 211, i was sailing along with other bigger boats, eg 27 to 30 footers, however they were older boats, and as the 211 was more efficient in light airs, and could sail closer to the wind, i left them behind..

2 good solid " trailer sailers" are the Beneteau 211 ( new model called first 21.7) and the etap 21i.

As regards the ETAP
You might note LOA and LWL

The waterline length is what gives speed not the overall length.

I have a 22- 23 foot boat bt the waterline length is 17 foot so the square root is a tiny bit over four 4.12

I race against an Etap 22 which has a 21 foot LWL so his sqrt is 4.58

His top speed is therefore about ten per cent more then mine - a little more than a half knot.

ingen

ISAW wrote: »

As regards the ETAP
You might note LOA and LWL

The waterline length is what gives speed not the overall length.

I have a 22- 23 foot boat bt the waterline length is 17 foot so the square root is a tiny bit over four 4.12

I race against an Etap 22 which has a 21 foot LWL so his sqrt is 4.58

His top speed is therefore about ten per cent more then mine - a little more than a half knot.

ISAW if you scroll up, you will see i said waterline length for the speed.
scroll up and you will see that.


im now in the 10-11 knott hull speed range..

ingen

Tabnabs wrote: »

And the 211 is €12-16k, just a tad further north than the OPs budget

Just to pay devils advocate for a minute, they are also incredibly light, hence the light air performance when compared to bigger older boats. But when the winds gets up to a force 4+, I know which boat I'd be rather not be in.

OP, I'd advise having a think about realistically what you'll be using the boat for in the next 2/3 years and go with that option. Before you get sucked into paying out big money for relatively little return.

tabnabs, i was suggesting a boat based on his requirements, suggesting a much safer craft. (ignoring budget) i have been caught out by the bailey lighthouse in a F6 in the 211 , it handled it well as its RCD Rating B.
I was giving real world ownership experience, of having owned one.

tabnabs, some older bigger boats, do not have an RCD rating, thus hatches, ports, etc could be liable to flooding in different conditions, eg some cockpits not self draining, no lifelines etc,

actually picking the wrong boat/yacht could put you off sailing altogether, but picking the right boat, is the key, i started off with the 211, and now have a much bigger boat, 50ft.

Op have a look at the yachting forums over on ybw.com great wealth of knowledge there, and what ever boat you choose, you are sure to find someone there who has had the boat you are thinking of, and can give real world experience of.

RCD Design Categories
Category Significant Wave Height /Beaufort
A- Ocean Exceeding 4m Exceeding 8
B - Offshore Up to & including 4m Up to & including 8
C - Inshore Up to & including 2 Up to & including 6
D - Sheltered Up to & including 0.5m Up to & including 4

op one point to note, the newer model of the 211, called the 21.7 has changed to C rating.

ingen

Tabnabs wrote: »

And the 211 is €12-16k, just a tad further north than the OPs budget

they are also incredibly light, hence the light air performance when compared to bigger older boats

tabnabs they are between 1243kg -1400kg depending on configuration.

or 1.243 Metric tons / 1.4 Metric tons so not that light.

ISAW

ingen wrote: »

ISAW if you scroll up, you will see i said waterline length for the speed.
scroll up and you will see that.


im now in the 10-11 knott hull speed range..

I referred to the formula ( why else would i mention square roots?)

This is what you sytated

Hull speed (knots) = 1.34 times the square root of the waterline length (in feet), or 2.43 times the square root of the waterline length (in metres)

But in the middle of a post it might not be clear to a new yacht buyer the difference between length and waterline length.

ISAW

Here is a list of equipment you may need for cruising:

http://www.sailing.ie/dynamic/pdf/Safety%20equipment%20List%20%2813.3.10%29.pdf

I should give you an idea of the difference between Category A and B and why the boat isn't really suitable but a 19 foot coribee could be category C. It isn't only speed.

ingen

OP one final thing that has not been mentioned is insurance one major component is the Third Party Liability cover which normally covers you for €3,000,000 / £3,000,000

should you collide with another vessel / person / cause damage...

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/boat-owners-threaten-court-action-over-callely-collision-1893496.html


it is an essential thing to have, as small tips ( to other peoples crafts) can cost thousands to repair, so you need insurance to protect you against these sort of mishaps.

insurance also covers theft, etc etc.

Dr Pepper

Hello again,

Thanks very much to everyone for all the helpful tips. I had a look at that boat on Saturday morning and have been thinking about it since. You are going to kill me but I've kind of gone back to the drawing board on this (based on my inspection of that boat, and the advice given here). I am now back to thinking about large dinghies (wayfarer-type day sailors, 14-16ft). The boat on Saturday morning was in pretty good condition, a bit grubby but no major flaws that I could spot. It's just that upon seeing the boat up close, it looked bigger/bulkier than I had in mind and I've been visualising launching/recovering it and have come to the conclusion that it would be too much hassle to be doing 20 times or so per season. Plus, I was telling my mother about the boat on Saturday and she asked me "What do you need a cabin for?" to which I kind of mumbled and couldn't come up with a solid answer for. I've come up with a few pros and cons for a cabin boat of this size (vs. an open dinghy):

Pros of cabin:
- A bit of privacy to go to the toilet in a bucket or simple sea toilet!
- Somewhere for crew/passengers to take refuge during a heavy rain shower
- Potential sleeping accommodation (although it's been pointed out in this thread that the comfort/feasibility of sleeping in such a boat is questionable). Plus, sleeping in the boat is not one of my main objectives (boats this size will have limited range anyway so the plan is to drive there and drive home anyway - hence 'trailer' sailor!)
- Bit of practice sailing and looking after a cruiser-style boat (with a view to progressing up in size in the coming years)

Cons of cabin:
- Makes the whole boat heavier and bulkier for trailer launching
- In my mind, it takes up an awful lot of the limited space on a boat that size, i.e. sitting space.
- Makes it quite awkward to get down to the bow to free up a stuck gib, lower anchor, pick up a mooring, etc. There doesn't seem to be any kind of flat step along the sides of the cabin to put a foot so I think you'd be crawling on you belly while moving forward/aft while at sea (holding on for dear life!).
- Extra maintenance involved in keeping cabin in good order, neat and tidy and keeping the water out!

For me, the cons outweigh the pros by a good bit, hence I'm back to looking at Laser 16 and similar boats. You're range and sailing-friendly-weather are still fairly limited but you can still have the backup of an outboard for getting in/out of tricky harbours and getting out of trouble.

I'm thinking of ringing Kerry sailing and talking to the guy about the following two large dinghy-style boats. He seems to specialise in this type of boat. There aren't too many of them around. He might also be able to take my Pico as a trade in. Anybody ever deal with this guy (Paul Redmond) in Listowel?
http://sailingdinghies.apolloduck.ie/feature.phtml?id=82871
http://sailingdinghies.apolloduck.ie/feature.phtml?id=144566

Anybody any comments on this change of direction? Does it make sense?

Cheers,
Brian

fergal.b

Have a look at some of the sailing clubs sites like this http://www.skerriessailingclub.com/buynsell.htm it's a good source for boats and the people who are selling them will know all about them.:)

cfitz

Dr Pepper wrote: »

I am now back to thinking about large dinghies (wayfarer-type day sailors, 14-16ft).

Just a quick question for anyone here with more experience than me. How easy is it to avoid a capsize in these large dinghies? Like Dr Pepper here, I like the idea of taking family and friends (non-sailors) out for an occasional relaxed sail. But in this scenario, a capsize would be fairly unthinkable. So, does this make a dinghy a bad choice? Or do both dinghies and keel boats present pretty similar risks?

Cheers

murphym7

cfitz wrote: »

Just a quick question for anyone here with more experience than me. How easy is it to avoid a capsize in these large dinghies? Like Dr Pepper here, I like the idea of taking family and friends (non-sailors) out for an occasional relaxed sail. But in this scenario, a capsize would be fairly unthinkable. So, does this make a dinghy a bad choice? Or do both dinghies and keel boats present pretty similar risks?

Cheers

Check this site out for analysis of various crusining dingy's.

http://www.dca.uk.com/articles/whichdinghy.htm#wayfarer

ISAW

murphym7 wrote: »

Check this site out for analysis of various crusining dingy's.

http://www.dca.uk.com/articles/whichdinghy.htm#wayfarer

Im not good on dingys
What about a flying fifteen wayfairer or 420?


Hereis a coribbe hull boat:

http://www.apolloduck.ie/display.phtml?aid=182294

And Here is a boat in Rush which you might be near enough to look at
http://yachts.apolloduck.com/boats.phtml?id=2865

Or maybe ask then about dingies

Heres a wayfarer and trailer €850 on ads.ie

http://www.adverts.ie/boats-accessories/16ft-boat-dinghy-wayfarer-and-trailer/313628

ISAW

murphym7 wrote: »

Check this site out for analysis of various crusining dingy's.

http://www.dca.uk.com/articles/whichdinghy.htm#wayfarer

Here's a thread relating to the Howth Puppeteer 22 fleet:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=58222809

noby

Coming late into this thread, but I owned a Shipmate Senior up to a couple of years ago.
A couple of points: Yes it is closer to a dinghy than a cruiser so much more suited to day trips/ pottering about than cruising up and down the coast.
The UK owners club is very active, and there is a lot of info available if you become a member (nominal fee).
It's a great first-time boat - safe and easy to sail (in the right conditions).

As for the pros and cons of a cabin:

Dr Pepper wrote: »

- In my mind, it takes up an awful lot of the limited space on a boat that size, i.e. sitting space.

Considering the size of the boat, it has a decent sized cockpit, even with the cabin (There is a day sailer version, with a bigger cockpit, and smaller cabin, but I often went sailing with one or two adults in relative comfort).

Dr Pepper wrote: »

- Makes it quite awkward to get down to the bow to free up a stuck gib, lower anchor, pick up a mooring, etc. There doesn't seem to be any kind of flat step along the sides of the cabin to put a foot so I think you'd be crawling on you belly while moving forward/aft while at sea (holding on for dear life!).

The best, and easiest way to go forward is through the cabin and out the hatch (by that I mean standing in the cabin, not climbing out onto the small bow). I did a fair bit of single-handed sailing on mine and was able to moor, anchor, sort out head sails etc. through the forward hatch.

Due to a combination of an available mooring and a knackered trailer I moored more than trailer-sailed, but you would have the mast down, even single-handed in no time at all (the boom comes off anyway) and a trailer with a winch would get it up in no time.

noby

lutra

I agree with all the advice given above. I had a L17 about 12 years ago and it was a joy to sail. Very easy for the single hander. One bit of advice I would give: before buying get a survey done by an accredited marine surveyor. It might coat about 200 -300 but its well worth it.
All the best with the search.

pedroeibar1

Dr Pepper wrote: »

Hi,

I'm getting a small sailboat in the near future and I'm trying to decide what to go for. Here are some of my main requirements:
- I want a boat that I can keep on a trailer and launch/retrieve same day ('trailer sailor' I think is the term). I don't want the hassle & expense of keeping the boat permanently in the water and I want to be able to drive to different lakes & coastal locations for day-trip sailing.
- A good stable boat that's unlikely to capsize in rough seas/winds.
- I tend to plan 'expeditions' when sailing instead of just hanging around near one port. I'd like to travel up/down the coast a little bit and I'd like a boat that's capable/reliable in the open sea.
- Low maintenance! The less gadgets and equipments, the better in some ways (toilets, stoves, fridges are not needed right now) but I would like to be able to sleep on board occasionally.
- Budget is probably a little over 2,000 which seems to be enough for what I'm looking at.
Plus, I've only got a 1.6L petrol VW Passat so is this boat feasible at all?

.......
..... - How common are capsizes on these types of boat? How hard is it to right a boat like these at sea? If righted, is it going to end up being swamped with water?

............

Also coming late to this thread.
I’m being a little ‘direct’ but from what you’ve written I believe that you have not fully thought this through. Maintenance costs do not arise from cookers, toilets or fridges, the latter two of which usually are not found on 17/18 ft. boats. On boats that size, excluding mooring fees, the cost is insurance and wear&tear, the latter IMO is increased by trailer sailing.

Trailer-sailing is fine but it takes time. You leave Dublin for the Shannon, get the boat ready for launch, rig mast, bend on sails, etc, and it is lunchtime. You say you plan on making ‘expeditions’ up & down the coast. That suggests a roller-reefing headsail would be best, but that adds to the weight of the mast. Putting up the mast on any 17-20 footer is a job for at least 2 people and is not easy, particularly getting the rigging tensions correct. Get them wrong and you probably lose your mast. Then you sail for a couple of hours and it is time to return and do everything in reverse. Much more time faffing around onshore, less time on the water.

The top speed of all displacement yachts is governed by their waterline length, so a top speed of about 4 knots is about ‘it’ for any 17. A bilge keel boat (much easier for trailing & launching) has the drawback of poor windward performance – both pointing and leeway - so a long beat will be a PITA. If you sail to Wicklow, what do you do with the boat when you get there? Take the bus to Dublin and return with car & trailer? Forget sailing back if the tide is not in your favour... There are not many places to go on the east coast north/south of Dublin, so I assume that you will head to inland waters. A new trailer for a 17-20 foot boat costs the amount of your budget, so it follows that whatever trailer comes with any boat you buy will not be best for long-haul towing. How good are you at reversing down a narrow slipway?

Keelboats don't capsize, they lean over and then come up into the wind.

And, FWIW, the boat you have already ruled out, the Leisure 17 is the best from a sea-worthiness perspective and would be my choice. It weighs about 650kgs, would easily be towed by your Passat and ticks your boxes. One from Dun Laoghaire regularly went to the IoM and Holyhead, ask about them from the owner's association.

P.

Cork Boy

This is a terrific thread!

Ok, so my story is having grew up next to the river, I always loved the water and we plagued the local creamery stealing pallets to build rafts with Also, being from west cork I am crazy about the sea and ever since I was a kid I always wanted a boat.

Now, just passed my mid twenties and having forgot all about my childhood dreams it all came flooding back to me on a recent trip home!

I have no sailing experience whatsoever so of course before I'd even think of buying a boat I'll have to do some courses/lessons and make sure it really is something I want to do.

But from what I can gather from previous posts I'd be a trailer sailor looking for a Leisure 17 or an Etap 22. The link about the pro's and con's of trailering was excellent.

So, do people think either of these boats would be suitable for:

1. Sailing from Kinsale to Dingle and everywhere in between.
2. Sleeping overnight with one other aboard.
3. Anchoring overnight or beaching

Also, if anyone has any tips on any good sailing schools/clubs (non snobby ones if they exist please!) in either Cork or LimericknI'd be very grateful!

Cheers folks

Edit: After further research the westerly cirrus seems to be a lovely boat, would 22ft be small enough for a novice?

Dr Pepper

Hi Cork Boy,

Glad you're taking an interest in sailing. I picked it up 5/6 years ago at a similar late-ish age and it's changed my life. IMO, you'd be better off doing a few dinghy courses first to get even the basics of sailing under your belt before taking on a bigger sailboat (most clubs/schools use dinghies like the Laser Pico or Topper Topaz). You'd probably get away without buying a dinghy yourself if you wanted to. A lot of clubs have training days once a week where you can come along and use the club/school boats for a small fee (with rescue boat support and some helpful tuition). The ISA courses (level 1, 2 and 3) are a good place to start for formal dinghy training. They generally take 2-3 days each and cost about €200-250 each.

If you want to skip dinghy sailing and go straight to the bigger boats, 'crewing' is your best option. This is where you join a club (not always necessary) and help out as a junior crew member on a crew of 3-6 in regular club races. You should try and get some sort of introductory course done before you volunteer your services for crewing (although most club skippers are happy to help out volunteers of any skill level). Most clubs have casual club racing one evening a week and once over the weekend at this time of year. It's always very informal, friendly and great fun (never snobby or too serious in my experience). You can check club websites for a 'crew finder' section or similar and sign yourself up. Otherwise, just go down to your local club on the night and don't be shy about chatting to people! There are always skippers short-handed at these things.

I'm not normally one to discourage the jump-in-and-do-it attitude in any sport/field but in the case of sailing I think you should be prepared to take your time and enjoy the experience gained gradually over several years. Even if you do a course or two, buying a 17-22 ft boat and skippering it yourself from the beginning is highly dangerous in my opinion. My sister and I almost drowned off Mizen Head, Arklow last Summer so I'm telling you this from experience - and that was on a relatively good, sunny day. The sea can make life very difficult for you in a very short space of time (especially in your part of the country) so please take your time and enjoy!

Don't know about clubs in West Cork specifically.

Best of luck,
Brian

Cork Boy

Thanks very much Brian.

I'll be joining the UL Sailing Club on Lough Derg next year so that should get me levels 1&2. I'm well aware of the dangers of water though so will definately not be doing anything beyond my comfort levels (i.e., until i can wear the boat like a glove). It's one thing putting yourself at risk but to put any potential passengers and other seafarers at risk is completely unacceptable.

Realistically I couldn't see myself buying my westerly 22 for 2-3 years at least.

Cheers again!