John Paul II to be made a saint?

marty1985

It's kind of old news, as I read it on Time.com a few days ago - and they referred to an article in the Irish Times - but I was just wondering for your thoughts on this.

I am Catholic myself, but I am a little bit skeptical about this. I know he was generally a pretty good guy and well liked and admired all across the world, but it just seems like the process is being fast tracked by his friends, to the extent that it becomes pointless. The article I read - don't have a reference at the moment, as I read it on a mobile device on the way to work - even mentioned that the 'miracle' in question is very dubious, but I can't remember the exact details off hand. I think it was a Parkinson's sufferer but doctors have doubted if she had actually had Parkinson's in the first place. I'm sure the Church would have looked into this sufficiently, but to get to the point, I just want to hear what your reactions to this news might be, whether you're Catholic or any other denomination.

(On an unrelated side note can someone please tell me when I'm supposed to capitalize the C in Catholic and when not, I know there's a rule but my brain is quite slow at the moment, the hamster is quite tired.)

And I know some people might say all of those in heaven are saints, but that's not what I'm talking about. I always felt John Paul II fast tracked too many people on the way to sainthood (didn't he canonize over 1000 people or something?) and I know he did away with a lot of the hurdles of the process, such as the devil's advocate, and I never quite agreed with this. It's a little pet peeve of mine. As a kid I used to read stories of my namesake and his alleged exploits, and other saints, but oh boy, they don't make 'em like them anymore.

marty1985

I forgot to add something that I wanted to say.

I'm sure a lot of the survivors of clerical abuse will have a lot to say about this, and I do think that in time there may be some damaging claims coming out in the wash against John Paul II, and I think perhaps beatifying him so soon will alienate some people further

patrickk

I think he should be a saint John Paul and Matt Talbot too.

ubertrad

They shouldn't fast track. The devil's advocate should be used. The Church should take it's time in these matters.

bitter

No way should that man be even considered a good Human Being nevermind a Saint ffs, he covered up the most evil crime of all committed by his Church:mad:

marty1985

Well, whether he did or not I don't know, but there has to be time for dust to settle and things to be investigated because I believe there are many question marks over his handling of things.

Also, I know to most people on the planet it's completely irrelevant and and they don't care what the Catholic Church do within their own church, but I do think this would cause needless controversy and just distance the church from more people.

alex73

Excellent News, The Guys really is a Saint. I met him Rome twice and he was a great role model for the Church.

wolfsbane

I'm glad my sainthood does not depend on the opinions of men. According to the Bible, every Christian is a saint now. No need to wait until we are dead.

__________________________________________________________________________
Acts 26:9 “Indeed, I myself thought I must do many things contrary to the name of Jesus of Nazareth. 10 This I also did in Jerusalem, and many of the saints I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I cast my vote against them . 11 And I punished them often in every synagogue and compelled them to blaspheme; and being exceedingly enraged against them, I persecuted them even to foreign cities.

hotmail.com

Right so, he performed magic if we're believe this miracle story. Isn't this against Catholicism or is it ok if a member of the clergy is the magician?

georgieporgy

hotmail.com wrote: »

Right so, he performed magic if we're believe this miracle story. Isn't this against Catholicism or is it ok if a member of the clergy is the magician?

He was actually dead when the miracle was performed and according to the Church the miracle was performed by God.

You are right- the Church does forbid magic and sorcery and no exception is made for members of the clergy. Although your question may appear to be stupid don't feel bad about it, it's not necessarily your fault.

hotmail.com

georgieporgy wrote: »

He was actually dead when the miracle was performed and according to the Church the miracle was performed by God.

You are right- the Church does forbid magic and sorcery and no exception is made for members of the clergy. Although your question may appear to be stupid don't feel bad about it, it's not necessarily your fault.

Hold on, the miracle was performed by god? I thought the ex-pope performed this magic trick? This just gets more farcical. I presume you're talking about the Catholic Church as well.

Fanny Cradock

hotmail.com wrote: »

Hold on, the miracle was performed by god? I thought the ex-pope performed this magic trick? This just gets more farcical. I presume you're talking about the Catholic Church as well.

Do you have a point?

hotmail.com

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Do you have a point?

There's a clear contradiction between the CC opposing any forms of magic and yet condoning miracles, which are in effect works of magic. How does the CC square that one?

There is a much more serious point - many vulnerable people suffering from terrible diseases may be influenced by the notion of "miracles" performed by members of the clergy, when nothing of the sort exists. Who knows how much money is earned from this business and exploitation of vulnerable, ill people.

hsi

hotmail.com wrote: »

There's a clear contradiction between the CC opposing any forms of magic and yet condoning miracles, which are in effect works of magic. How does the CC square that one?

There is a much more serious point - many vulnerable people suffering from terrible diseases may be influenced by the notion of "miracles" performed by members of the clergy, when nothing of the sort exists. Who knows how much money is earned from this business and exploitation of vulnerable, ill people.

OK OK, seems like we need some basic cathechism here. The saint does not perform the miracle. In the catholic church people can pray to saints to intercede before god on behalf of us. The Miracle for JPII beatification was done by God.

Approved Prayer for the intercession of Pope John Paul II
O Holy Trinity,
we thank you for having given to the Church
Pope John Paul II,
and for having made him shine with your fatherly tenderness,
the glory of the Cross of Christ and the splendour of the Spirit of love
He, trusting completely in your infinite mercy
and in the maternal intercession of Mary, has shown himself
in the likeness of Jesus the Good Shepherd
and has pointed out to us holiness
as the path to reach eternal communion with You.
Grant us, through his intercession,
according to your will, the grace that we implore,
in the hope that he will soon be numbered among your saints.
Amen.



So lets get it straight, not clergy living or dead can perform any miracles. Its only with Gods intercession that the miracle happens.

hotmail.com

hsi wrote: »

OK OK, seems like we need some basic cathechism here. The saint does not perform the miracle. In the catholic church people can pray to saints to intercede before god on behalf of us. The Miracle for JPII beatification was done by God.

Approved Prayer for the intercession of Pope John Paul II
O Holy Trinity,
we thank you for having given to the Church
Pope John Paul II,
and for having made him shine with your fatherly tenderness,
the glory of the Cross of Christ and the splendour of the Spirit of love
He, trusting completely in your infinite mercy
and in the maternal intercession of Mary, has shown himself
in the likeness of Jesus the Good Shepherd
and has pointed out to us holiness
as the path to reach eternal communion with You.
Grant us, through his intercession,
according to your will, the grace that we implore,
in the hope that he will soon be numbered among your saints.
Amen.



So lets get it straight, not clergy living or dead can perform any miracles. Its only with Gods intercession that the miracle happens.

So god can perform magic?

Intelligent people must look at this and laugh.

hotmail.com

hsi wrote: »

OK OK, seems like we need some basic cathechism here. The saint does not perform the miracle. In the catholic church people can pray to saints to intercede before god on behalf of us. The Miracle for JPII beatification was done by God.

Approved Prayer for the intercession of Pope John Paul II
O Holy Trinity,
we thank you for having given to the Church
Pope John Paul II,
and for having made him shine with your fatherly tenderness,
the glory of the Cross of Christ and the splendour of the Spirit of love
He, trusting completely in your infinite mercy
and in the maternal intercession of Mary, has shown himself
in the likeness of Jesus the Good Shepherd
and has pointed out to us holiness
as the path to reach eternal communion with You.
Grant us, through his intercession,
according to your will, the grace that we implore,
in the hope that he will soon be numbered among your saints.
Amen.



So lets get it straight, not clergy living or dead can perform any miracles. Its only with Gods intercession that the miracle happens.

On a technical point then, why is John Paul going to be made a saint...given there is no proof that he was behind this miracle?

hsi

hotmail.com wrote: »

So god can perform magic?

Intelligent people must look at this and laugh.

Whats magic got to do with this Thread? If your not Catholic please post elsewhere instead of trolling here.

efb

This is a Catholics only thread?

alex73

efb wrote: »

This is a Catholics only thread?

Yes, do you have a problem? He was our Pope and now our Saint as we loved him and miss him.

hsi

alex73 wrote: »

Yes, do you have a problem? He was our Pope and now our Saint as we loved him and miss him.

Thanks!, 100% agree

hotmail.com

hsi wrote: »

Whats magic got to do with this Thread? If your not Catholic please post elsewhere instead of trolling here.

The thread is entitled Christianity - but obviously you believe the true Christians are Catholics.

A miracle is a magic trick surely.

efb

alex73 wrote: »

Yes, do you have a problem? He was our Pope and now our Saint as we loved him and miss him.

I'm sure that's against the rules...

hotmail.com

alex73 wrote: »

Yes, do you have a problem? He was our Pope and now our Saint as we loved him and miss him.

You don't want to debate the points raised? Blind faith.

alex73

hotmail.com wrote: »

The thread is entitled Christianity - but obviously you believe the true Christians are Catholics.

A miracle is a magic trick surely.

The Thread is John Paul II to be made a saint.

And no, a miracle is not a magic trick.

Here is a link to what Catholics Believe as a Miracle.

http://www.catholic.org/encyclopedia/view.php?id=8016

Brenireland

Pope John Paul was a legend,everyone appreciated him & what he done for the world he helped ease international relations after WW2 and was involved in highlighting some of the worlds biggest diseases and tried so hard to improve the living conditions for the people who suffered from them.

Of course people will try to cut him down,but this happens to so many other great people...Pope John Paul suffered worse things,such as living through WW2 and been punished so badly by the Nazi's,If only John Paul's critics experienced the life he experienced from struggling through such a regime and having the majority of his family & friends wiped out....I wonder how the would have reacted in his situation?,Our Soon to be Saint went on to devote his life to Christ and became head Of Christ's church on Earth and used his position greatly he did not set out to hate the race of people who destroyed his family he forgave them!,and he prayed for them!,as he did the man who attempted to assassinate him!

Now I listen to the people who search so hard to find what little bits they can in order to put this man's name down or to attack the church...But all I or anyone can do is what John Paul would have done...Pray For Them,these people are the people most in need of prayer.:)

hotmail.com

alex73 wrote: »

The Thread is John Paul II to be made a saint.

And no, a miracle is not a magic trick.

Here is a link to what Catholics Believe as a Miracle.

http://www.catholic.org/encyclopedia/view.php?id=8016

What do you believe is a miracle?

hotmail.com

Brenireland wrote: »

Pope John Paul was a legend,everyone appreciated him & what he done for the world he helped ease international relations after WW2 and was involved in highlighting some of the worlds biggest diseases and tried so hard to improve the living conditions for the people who suffered from them.

Of course people will try to cut him down,but this happens to so many other great people...Pope John Paul suffered worse things,such as living through WW2 and been punished so badly by the Nazi's,If only John Paul's critics experienced the life he experienced from struggling through such a regime and having the majority of his family & friends wiped out....I wonder how the would have reacted in his situation?,Our Soon to be Saint went on to devote his life to Christ and became head Of Christ's church on Earth and used his position greatly he did not set out to hate the race of people who destroyed his family he forgave them!,and he prayed for them!,as he did the man who attempted to assassinate him!

Now I listen to the people who search so hard to find what little bits they can in order to put this man's name down or to attack the church...But all I or anyone can do is what John Paul would have done...Pray For Them,these people are the people most in need of prayer.:)

What about his bad points?

Brenireland

hotmail.com wrote: »

What about his bad points?

what about them?,Every human has bad points,every human has sinned.....their is no human being since Adam & Eve that has not sinned!

Every Religion,every organisation,every race has it's bad points,All you need to do is Keep the Faith,Our Lord Jesus Christ is their to forgive it is up to the small minority of the human race to accept this.

efb

Brenireland wrote: »

Pope John Paul was a legend,everyone appreciated him & what he done for the world he helped ease international relations after WW2 and was involved in highlighting some of the worlds biggest diseases and tried so hard to improve the living conditions for the people who suffered from them.

Of course people will try to cut him down,but this happens to so many other great people...Pope John Paul suffered worse things,such as living through WW2 and been punished so badly by the Nazi's,If only John Paul's critics experienced the life he experienced from struggling through such a regime and having the majority of his family & friends wiped out....I wonder how the would have reacted in his situation?,Our Soon to be Saint went on to devote his life to Christ and became head Of Christ's church on Earth and used his position greatly he did not set out to hate the race of people who destroyed his family he forgave them!,and he prayed for them!,as he did the man who attempted to assassinate him!

Now I listen to the people who search so hard to find what little bits they can in order to put this man's name down or to attack the church...But all I or anyone can do is what John Paul would have done...Pray For Them,these people are the people most in need of prayer.:)

Little Bits like the cover up of horrific child abuse...

Do you want us to pray to forget?

hotmail.com

Brenireland wrote: »

what about them?,Every human has bad points,every human has sinned.....their is no human being since Adam & Eve that has not sinned!

Every Religion,every organisation,every race has it's bad points,All you need to do is Keep the Faith,Our Lord Jesus Christ is their to forgive it is up to the small minority of the human race to accept this.

You seem able to list his good points, surely you're able to list his bad points. I'll give you a head start:

Overseeing the abuse of children in Catholic institutions and engaging in the cover up
Refusal to recognise condoms leading to millions of deaths in Africa
The continued resistance to accept women as priests

That's just three.

hsi

Brenireland wrote: »

Pope John Paul was a legend,everyone appreciated him & what he done for the world he helped ease international relations after WW2 and was involved in highlighting some of the worlds biggest diseases and tried so hard to improve the living conditions for the people who suffered from them.

Of course people will try to cut him down,but this happens to so many other great people...Pope John Paul suffered worse things,such as living through WW2 and been punished so badly by the Nazi's,If only John Paul's critics experienced the life he experienced from struggling through such a regime and having the majority of his family & friends wiped out....I wonder how the would have reacted in his situation?,Our Soon to be Saint went on to devote his life to Christ and became head Of Christ's church on Earth and used his position greatly he did not set out to hate the race of people who destroyed his family he forgave them!,and he prayed for them!,as he did the man who attempted to assassinate him!

Now I listen to the people who search so hard to find what little bits they can in order to put this man's name down or to attack the church...But all I or anyone can do is what John Paul would have done...Pray For Them,these people are the people most in need of prayer.:)

I suppose I am lucky to have met him personally, He dedicated his life 100% to the church.

Lets list some of the facts about the man.

1. He lost his Mother, Brother, Father at a very early age.
2. He fought communism with faith and love instead of a gun.
3. He defended the jews and lived during the holocost, one of his bests friends from School was a jew.


Onl a human level he was able to connect with all men. He was an intellectual, he lectured in the university of Lublin in Poland.

He was much loved as a priest, bishop, cardinal and Pope.

katyt

hotmail.com wrote: »

So god can perform magic?

Intelligent people must look at this and laugh.

No trust me, intelligent people might find your ambiguities slightly annoying, and not at all amusing.
'Magic' refers to illusions carried out by very clever, and usually very intelligent human beings. The term 'Miracle' is used to describe something that is not an illusion, and cannot be explained by human intervention.
Now intelligent people are not concerned with magic at all, other than to admire the skill and performance of the magician.
Whether miracles take place or not, and whether a man with huge charisma but very flawed moral judgement can intercede to ensure a miracle, these are questions that may well interest intelligent people.

hotmail.com

hsi wrote: »

I suppose I am lucky to have met him personally, He dedicated his life 100% to the church.

Lets list some of the facts about the man.

1. He lost his Mother, Brother, Father at a very early age.
2. He fought communism with faith and love instead of a gun.
3. He defended the jews and lived during the holocost, one of his bests friends from School was a jew.


Onl a human level he was able to connect with all men. I was an intellectual, he lectured in the university of Lublin in Poland.

He was much loved as a priest, bishop, cardinal and Pope.

Just men? Not women?

His good points include losing his mother, brother and father at a young age, how is that a good point exactly? That seems terrible to me and hardly something to mention.

His influence in the collapse of communism is exaggerated by die hard Catholics - his input was minimul and doesn't feature in any objective account of the period. Unless you can suddenly present evidence to the contrary - apart from praying.

The failure to deal with the sexual abuse of children is the key feature of his reign. It's disappointing that adults support a man that deliberately covered the abuse of children.

Baggio1

Ah yes is great news,,, fairly expected i would say,....

only blip for me with he and paulvI and johnXXIII was that none of them carried out the consecration of Russia to the immaculate heart of Mary....BIIIGGG mistake ,,and well as we've discussed before on here... the now almost expected coming chastisement will be the fruit of that mistake for us to live through.

Anyway apart from that i was a huge fan of JP2 and have great memories of him for sure... was delighted when Benedict was elected after him... all the liberals and foney catholics were soo annoyed at that election - it just made me laugh at em all the more

hotmail.com

katyt wrote: »

No trust me, intelligent people might find your ambiguities slightly annoying, and not at all amusing.
'Magic' refers to illusions carried out by very clever, and usually very intelligent human beings. The term 'Miracle' is used to describe something that is not an illusion, and cannot be explained by human intervention.
Now intelligent people are not concerned with magic at all, other than to admire the skill and performance of the magician.
Whether miracles take place or not, and whether a man with huge charisma but very flawed moral judgement can intercede to ensure a miracle, these are questions that may well interest intelligent people.

Splitting hairs - magic and miracles, the same thing, except miracles is used by Catholics when it suits them.

Rented Mule

I can't help but feel that his 'fast-tracking' to Sainthood is more of a public relations move than anything else.

alex73

Baggio1 wrote: »

Ah yes is great news,,, fairly expected i would say,....

only blip for me with he and paulvI and johnXXIII was that none of them carried out the consecration of Russia to the immaculate heart of Mary....BIIIGGG mistake ,,and well as we've discussed before on here... the now almost expected coming chastisement will be the fruit of that mistake for us to live through.

Anyway apart from that i was a huge fan of JP2 and have great memories of him for sure... was delighted when Benedict was elected after him... all the liberals and foney catholics were soo annoyed at that election - it just made me laugh at em all the more

I see about 80 of my friends on Facebook are trying to get tickets to Rome for the 1st of May. I will have to wait until the canonization to go.

The point that most impacted me about his life is how he showed people to accept sickness and to die with dignity. The man was a real saint.

Brenireland

efb wrote: »

Little Bits like the cover up of horrific child abuse...

Do you want us to pray to forget?

no, but Pray for the individuals who were hurt by the sinners.

like I said the Earth is full of sin,the priesthood & catholic church was targeted & always has been by wrong doers,It was & is hard to cut out the individuals who enter the priesthood as it is in any profession,with the aim of causing harm.

efb

Well when it seemed the RCC gave them a carte Blanche to carry out their evil acts it's easy to see why it attracted them and has a hard time shaking off the stigma

Fanny Cradock

Hotmail.com, this is your one and only warning. Read the charter and stick by it.

Fanny Cradock

hsi wrote: »

Whats magic got to do with this Thread? If your not Catholic please post elsewhere instead of trolling here.

Just to make something clear: this thread is open to everybody, except those in breach of the charter.

alex73

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Just to make something clear: this thread is open to everybody, except those in breach of the charter.

Ok, But voicing opinions so wide off the mark and without an understanding of the Catholic faiths seems more like Anti-Catholic trolling.

Plowman

This post has been deleted.

Brenireland

hotmail.com wrote: »

Just men? Not women?

His good points include losing his mother, brother and father at a young age, how is that a good point exactly? That seems terrible to me and hardly something to mention.

His influence in the collapse of communism is exaggerated by die hard Catholics - his input was minimul and doesn't feature in any objective account of the period. Unless you can suddenly present evidence to the contrary - apart from praying.

The failure to deal with the sexual abuse of children is the key feature of his reign. It's disappointing that adults support a man that deliberately covered the abuse of children.

I'm sure "All Man" is what was meant.(Mankind-Women/Men alike)

His Input was still input ,minimal or not,however his efforts are noted in most History books out their....

De Valera signed the book of condolence following hitler's death,Hitler murdered 6million jews men & women & Children,In Irish History books he is a great man!,he done lots of good do,and chances are he'll mainly be remembered for the good he has done.

sadly due to lapses in the church's security wrongdoers got in to the priesthood to try spread rot!,these wrong doers not only targeted the church but many other organisations but that's the sad fact that the world is been gripped by sin!,& sadly John Paul will be seen by some,as the man at fault for this!

The man done so much good do,yes their were mistakes made/in some cases big mistakes,but nobody want's to see people hurt,the pope is no different he's experienced hurt while poland was targeted by the Nazi's and many of his family we're shot or incinerated

Moral of the story is that Pope John Paul will Become a saint/that's what the thread is really mainly about.

efb

alex73 wrote: »

Ok, But voicing opinions so wide off the mark and without an understanding of the Catholic faiths seems more like Anti-Catholic trolling.

They never referred to trolls just that this is a topic for Catholics

r3nu4l

I saw JPII in the Phoenix Park in Dublin during his visit. Unfortunately I was only three years old at the time and all I remember of the entire event is some man in front of me singing with the crowd and waving is arms while holding a Mars bar. That Mars bar looked delicious!


Anyway, on-topic! Pope John Paul II did some incredibly brilliant things during his life and there can be no doubting that but as a Christian it hurts me to think that the man who led the religion I was baptised into, seemed to do so little about the child abuse scandal. Even as it was all uncovered, there was little other than hand-wringing about the evils of child abuse. Nothing about rooting it out and finding the abusers! I wasn't looking for the Spanish Inquisition all over again but something, anything quick, powerful and decisive would have been good!! Instead we got the secretive, closed door mentality from our own Church here in Ireland right the way up to the Vatican.

It has become clear that the Vatican knew about child abuse in Ireland and yet no formal Vatican investigations ever took place, or if they did, we haven't heard about them and don't know the outcome of those investigations. The only thing we know for sure is that the abusers were allowed to continue their abuse and ruin the lives of so many innocent children.

If JPII knew about that and did nothing then the man should never be beatified, nevermind canonized. It's too early and the church is too secretive about the extent of their knowledge for me to trust that he didn't know. Until we know for sure how much he knew he should never be a saint. Not if he covered up or didn't stop that evil if he knew about it.

Fanny Cradock

alex73 wrote: »

Ok, But voicing opinions so wide off the mark and without an understanding of the Catholic faiths seems more like Anti-Catholic trolling.

And each forum has moderators that will determine if somebody is breaking the charter. The member in question has received their warning, so lets assume that the message has been understood and we can now proceed with a more fruitful discussion.

hsi

Ok. I will tell my views on Child abuse coverup and Pope John Paul II.

I was part of a Catholic Organisation Called regnum Christi for a number of years. They are associated to Legion of Christ. The Founder appeared to by holy. However 2 years ago his double life of Child sex abuse came out, The priest even had his own kids who he abused!!! In 1997 some of the abused kids now grown men complained to JPII and Cardinal Ratzinger. The Legionaries of Christ were a very big and powerful organisation in the Church, and Fr. Maciel was able to convince JPII that the accusations was false and that they were aimed and tarnishing his reputation and the congregation. I believed Fr. Maciel and so did JPII.

Soon after JPII died the truth came out and Ratzinger as Pope banished Maciel.

Much abuse was covered up by Bishops, Cardinals.

People forget that Peodophiles are masters of coverup and deception. I was fooled I know.

JPII apologised many times, he was very hard on known cases, he would never allow abusers to abuse, Child abusers are in all walks of life, and some make it into the church. But 95% of Child abuse historically in Ireland was done by people close to child like parents, family or Friends.

Child abuse is a sad part of the Church of some priests. But the majority was good. The Legion of Christ was founded by an evil abusive peodophile, but he kept his double life hidden. The priests in the congregation were horrified of the truth.

JPII was a great man and supported many Catholic Groups, Opus Dei, Foculari, and other groups, He was a simple and honest Man who believed in the goodness of Men. Some abusers where about to manipulate his goodness.

The Church as learned from its mistakes. All abuses are reported to Police, nothing is covered up.

JPII was a good and holy Man. I was conned by a peodophile and I know how they cultivate people to believing their lies.
This does not mean JPII did anything wrong. But the church as learned and moved on.

efb

The RCC has never apologised. Prayed for alot of people but never officially apologised.

If you want to ref JPII's apology I'll happily retract.

Plowman

This post has been deleted.

lmaopml

r3nu4l wrote: »

I saw JPII in the Phoenix Park in Dublin during his visit. Unfortunately I was only three years old at the time and all I remember of the entire event is some man in front of me singing with the crowd and waving is arms while holding a Mars bar. That Mars bar looked delicious!


Anyway, on-topic! Pope John Paul II did some incredibly brilliant things during his life and there can be no doubting that but as a Christian it hurts me to think that the man who led the religion I was baptised into, seemed to do so little about the child abuse scandal. Even as it was all uncovered, there was little other than hand-wringing about the evils of child abuse. Nothing about rooting it out and finding the abusers! I wasn't looking for the Spanish Inquisition all over again but something, anything quick, powerful and decisive would have been good!! Instead we got the secretive, closed door mentality from our own Church here in Ireland right the way up to the Vatican.

It has become clear that the Vatican knew about child abuse in Ireland and yet no formal Vatican investigations ever took place, or if they did, we haven't heard about them and don't know the outcome of those investigations. The only thing we know for sure is that the abusers were allowed to continue their abuse and ruin the lives of so many innocent children.

If JPII knew about that and did nothing then the man should never be beatified, nevermind canonized. It's too early and the church is too secretive about the extent of their knowledge for me to trust that he didn't know. Until we know for sure how much he knew he should never be a saint. Not if he covered up or didn't stop that evil if he knew about it.

Hey r3nu4l (had to scroll back to post that name..lol ), I would have been about the same age as you. I remember it though, it's one of my earliest memories; people carrying deckchairs etc. walking past the house, my mum excited and the TV tuned in. ( wow, we had a TV then ).....rich I tell ya..

'People of Ireland, I Love you....'... *applaud*

It was a different age, like so many things. We often think that 'abuse' is all out in the open and scientifically diagnosed now, and risk factors are isolated and known, and nobody is at 'risk' once you follow the guidelines....

Unfortunately that is not the case....Maybe in a decade or two we will understand more...but no doubt the 'Church' has got a well deserved boot up the proverbial behind, and is the most obvious stop place for anger; rightly so too.....The last decade has changed everything with regards how they relate, either spiritually or educationally - perhaps when both extremes are no longer necessary we will see some equilibrium and relief...


Pope Ratzinger is probably the very best person at the very best time...lots of 'issues', lots of wrongs to be made right, but only one faith. He is truely the strongest Pope we have ever needed and I wonder at his strenght sometimes, and JPII was the most outreaching Pope, he opened the doors and recognised a saint in every walk of life...which undoubtedly there are, very many unsung saints..

We have two Popes who agreed fundamentally, but their contribution is entirely different along with the tide..

I liked JPII, he was a good man, and my mum has Parkinsons too, so I know it changes everything superficial and focuses on what is real for the person...nothing like illness to challenge everything...

My mum is not exactly as gracious though...lol...but then maybe JPII had his moments too - whatever though, he was a Pope of the people who travelled and recognised/encouraged respect for differing world views religious or otherwise - while still focusing on Christ and being an example..

What more could anybody do..I'll be glad to see him beatified, unlike others I think the man is either a 'saint' or is not a 'saint' and no better time to remember...and who cares about politics anyway, certainly not the saints.