Do you wish you believed in God?

Dan133269

Well, do you?

Basically, I think it can bring some comfort no matter how baseless and irrational that comfort is. What I am mainly talking about is how to deal with the death of a loved one.

On the other hand, it can make people take stupid decisions and leave certain things "for the next life" rather than making the most of here and now. So, if given the choice?

magicbastarder

i think you've phrased the options in an odd way, because i'm an atheist and i chose not to believe in god; i *was* given the choice whether or not to believe.
it might be better to phrase them 'i'm an atheist and i would prefer if god existed', etc.

Dan133269

Yeah I wasn't sure how to phrase it. Basically, I mean if you are born again, but beforehand you can choose whether you will believe or not believe when you grow up.
Kind of like that scene in the Matrix where Joe Pantleano wants to be put back on earth with lots of riches even though they don't really exist. Kind of like, ignorance is bliss.

nozzferrahhtoo

I do not find the question relevant really. Wanting to believe something is entirely independent of whether it is actually true or not and wanting it to be one way or another suggests a bias where one may not actually exist.

There simply is no evidence, arguments, data or reasons that have been presented to me in 18 years of asking for them to lend even a modicum of credence to the notion. I simply dismiss it therefore as being the entirely unsubstantiated claim it actually is.

Looking at some of the opinions however that this entity is claimed to hold, and some of the actions it has been claimed to have performed and in some cases refuses to perform, I do admit to a certain relief that the claims are not true. The character of this god in, for example, the most famous work of fiction of all time the Bible, is decidedly unpleasant.

Cavehill Red

I don't wish that I believe in God. Nor do I wish that there was a magic being who I could relinquish responsibility for my actions to.
Rather I wish that more people copped on and stopped believing in the fairy tale. I think the world would be a better, more compassionate and more efficiently run place if most of those in it didn't waste their time and their emotions on imaginary creatures.

seamus

I would only wish to believe in a God if one existed.

Otherwise you're just kidding yourself.

I don't personally believe the "comfort" argument. In my experience, people who are highly religious have just as much (if not more) difficulty moving on from the death of a loved one than an atheist. An atheist probably sees more finality in death and can therefore move on a lot quicker. That is, you believe your loved one is most likely gone forever with the outside possibility of them existing on some other plane.

Being religious still leaves uncertainty as to what happened - you believe that your loved one is on another plane, but the uncertainty remains that they may be gone forever. Very few people are so staunchly religious that they are 100% confident of the existence of heaven.

Stercus Accidit

<obligatory 'which god?' post>

:pac:

Worshiping one of the hindu gods always had a nice sound to it
and I could see the comfort aspect
but no

smokingman

Once you lack, ain't no going back.

fred252

don't be silly

pH

Dan133269 wrote: »

Basically, I think it can bring some comfort no matter how baseless and irrational that comfort is. What I am mainly talking about is how to deal with the death of a loved one.

I have never understood this mental leap, how does believing in God (and I take it you mean the Christian one) help deal with the death of a loved one? Nearly all Christian religions say that the chances are, they (the loved one) are now burning and being tortured in hell somewhere! That doesn't help anyone deal with their death (except if it was your worst enemy of something).

There is this wide spread belief that Christianity says "once you're dead it's all angels/harps/floaty clouds" and who'd be cruel enough to tell a grieving family different, but it's not what Christianity (nor really any widespread religion I know of) says.

So, can you explain to me how does Christianity and its doctrine of needing to be "saved" to get to heaven, coupled with the threat of eternal damnation in hell, helps anyone "deal with the death of a loved one"

Zillah

Dan133269 wrote: »

What I am mainly talking about is how to deal with the death of a loved one.

"Why him, God? How would you let this happen? He was innocent and kind, he was too young! God must have a plan. I don't understand it, and it seems cruel, but it must be good. God is good. There is a plan, somehow almighty and loving God had a reason to let such a nice young person die."

I honestly don't think I have ever seen someone so conflicted as when they are trying to rationalise death with a loving God. For me it is simply a case of "horrible things happen some times".

As for your original question, no, absolutely not. Faith is the wanton surrender of reason, and there's something disgustingly sychophantic about the whole thing too.

Zombrex

Dan133269 wrote: »

Well, do you?

Basically, I think it can bring some comfort no matter how baseless and irrational that comfort is. What I am mainly talking about is how to deal with the death of a loved one.

On the other hand, it can make people take stupid decisions and leave certain things "for the next life" rather than making the most of here and now. So, if given the choice?

I find the Christian notion of God rather disgusting, so I would answer no if that was what you meant by "God".

If you simply meant a benevolent creator deity who looked after us and provided for life after death, then sure why not. It would be nice to think something like that existed, though how I would square that with all the evidence he doesn't I'm not sure.

That last question raises a good point. I would not wish to believe in a god if it meant that my critical reasoning powers were diminished or if it meant that I compartmentalized reality the way a lot of theists seem to do. That to me is more important than any comfort such a belief might bring.

As a side I certainly plan to turn into a God fearing heaven bound theist in my later life when faced with my own mortality

housetypeb

Zillah wrote: »

"Why him, God? How would you let this happen? He was innocent and kind, he was too young! God must have a plan. I don't understand it, and it seems cruel, but it must be good. God is good. There is a plan, somehow almighty and loving God had a reason to let such a nice young person die."

I honestly don't think I have ever seen someone so conflicted as when they are trying to rationalise death with a loving God. For me it is simply a case of "horrible things happen some times".

As for your original question, no, absolutely not. Faith is the wanton surrender of reason, and there's something disgustingly sychophantic about the whole thing too.

I agree, I lost my wife through suicide two years ago and I dont waste time wondering if she's in heaven or hell or another galaxy or what ever.
She's dead and I miss he and remember the times we had together but i have no expectation that I will ever see her again.
life is short and random,death is final and comes to us all sooner or later one way or another, so enjoy life while you can because this is not a dress rehearsal for heaven.
I lurk in the other forum now and again, and frankly, the rubbish they spiel over there is laughable.

Donal Og O Baelach

It comes back to the agnostic/atheist divide.
To an agnostic, when a loved one dies, there is still a possibility - no matter how minute - that he/she still exists somewhere. This can be quite torturous, since you know it to be almost impossible, yet to discount it can feel like giving up or even abandoning your loved one to whatever fate they are now in. If there is any chance you can still help them ...etc.

An atheist refuses to belive in the possibilty.

seamus

Agnosticism and atheism are not mutually exclusive. Agnostic is a viewpoint on knowability, atheism is a viewpoint on God. Most atheists are agnostic too.

You could sum up the theist/atheist divide on the issue of death as an optimist/pessimist one.

Theists are optimists - "While acknowledging that there may be no afterlife, I believe that my loved one is probably alive somewhere else"

Atheists are pessimists - "While acknowledging that there may be an afterlife, I believe that my loved one is most likely gone forever"

I would suggest that when it comes to death, optimism is the more damaging standpoint because it doesn't allow for closure.

Think along the lines of missing people - while there is hope, the person's family are constantly thinking about it., constantly wondering "what if", and can't move on. Eventually they all say the same thing - "We just want closure".

From the pessimistic atheist's point-of-view they already have closure - the only way is up effectively, if they're wrong they have everything to gain.
From the optimist's point-of-view they have everything to lose by being wrong and so the uncertainty will cause difficulty in getting on with your life.

robindch

Dan133269 wrote: »

I am an atheist and if given the choice, I would choose to believe in God.

What exactly do you mean "if given the choice"?

Are you saying that somebody else decides what you believe, or that you decide yourself what to believe?

Donal Og O Baelach

robindch wrote: »

What exactly do you mean "if given the choice"?

Are you saying that somebody else decides what you believe, or that you decide yourself what to believe?

It would be nice if we could just decide what we want to believe - (then we would all be like Bill - I'm the greatest thing since sliced bread - Cullen), but some can only form deep beliefs on experiences and contemplation of the evidence as we percieve it.

Dades

I do think the wording of the poll is unfortunate, given the notion of "choosing to believe" something is an anathema to intellectual honesty.

What I think you're really positing is a Matrix red pill/blue pill type scenario.

That is, if you could take a pill that would make you actually believe, and you could live your life confident that an afterlife awaited you and your loved ones, could you?

So I would say no - but never say never.

Gregor Samsa

Your question is basically "Do you wish you were deluded?"

A neighbour of mine suffered from dementia before he died. He believed that he was a GAA referee (he wasn't) and seemed quite happy in his delusion. Grand for him, you might say, but there's no way I would wish I was senile.

bnt

Donal Og O Baelach wrote: »

It comes back to the agnostic/atheist divide.
To an agnostic, when a loved one dies, there is still a possibility - no matter how minute - that he/she still exists somewhere. This can be quite torturous, since you know it to be almost impossible, yet to discount it can feel like giving up or even abandoning your loved one to whatever fate they are now in. If there is any chance you can still help them ...etc.

An atheist refuses to belive in the possibilty.

No, your definitions are off. Agnostic doesn't just mean "I don't know", since nobody knows, do they? I'm an atheist because I don't believe, but that doesn't mean I claim to know the answer to the question (the existence of gods) is definitely No.

Agnosticism means you believe you can't know, that the question can't be answered - but I think the question can be answered, so I'm not much of an Agnostic. Which doesn't mean that I think I have the answer(s) today.

There is no atheist/agnostic divide: it's quite possible to be both atheist and agnostic at the same time. You could even say that agnosticism implies atheism; if you think you're never going to find the answer, that means you don't have the answer now i.e. you're not a believer. If you believe in a god, you think you have the answer, don't you?

If I ever found myself wishing for a god, that feeling would only last as long as it took me to ask "OK, now what? What's the god going to do to help me?" A god that doesn't do anything may as well not exist anyway.

CerebralCortex

Would I be wrong in asserting that, rationally speaking, beliefs should never include choice but be based on observable evidence?

Dave!

Nah, I'd like to understand the world as it really is, good or bad, and live my life in that context. Fairytales are for other people.

checkyabadself

Donal Og O Baelach wrote: »

It comes back to the agnostic/atheist divide.
To an agnostic, when a loved one dies, there is still a possibility - no matter how minute - that he/she still exists somewhere. This can be quite torturous, since you know it to be almost impossible, yet to discount it can feel like giving up or even abandoning your loved one to whatever fate they are now in. If there is any chance you can still help them ...etc.

An atheist refuses to belive in the possibilty.

I wouldn`t see how it would seem torturous. We are all comfortably aware that we didnt exist prior to being born and dont invent theories and gods to explain where we might have come from. Surely the prospect of finality is as easy to grasp as the idea that we were created on this planet and will once again cease to exist.

I find the death of loved ones deeply saddening and as you say, torturous precisely because of this assumed finality.
Also, life without an end would be meaningless to me. It would be like groundhog day whereby you could do what you liked as the reprecussions for your actions wouldnt exist.

CerebralCortex

checkyabadself wrote: »

Also, life without an end would be meaningless to me. It would be like groundhog day whereby you could do what you liked as the reprecussions for your actions wouldnt exist.

Yes they would.

checkyabadself

CerebralCortex wrote: »

Yes they would.

Ah, I didnt mean that we`d lose our morality, just that the meaning of life and its preciousness would be devalued if we were immortal.

CerebralCortex

checkyabadself wrote: »

Ah, I didnt mean that we`d lose our morality, just that the meaning of life and its preciousness would be devalued if we were immortal.

That's a fallacy too.

ColmDawson

Time for Agnosticism Correction Hedgehog...

Zillah

checkyabadself wrote: »

Ah, I didnt mean that we`d lose our morality, just that the meaning of life and its preciousness would be devalued if we were immortal.

I've never bought this argument.

If people really bought this logic, then why wouldn't they move to a desert to make water more precious, or work for minimum wage to make money more precious?

Donal Og O Baelach

checkyabadself wrote: »

I wouldn`t see how it would seem torturous. We are all comfortably aware that we didnt exist prior to being born and dont invent theories and gods to explain where we might have come from. Surely the prospect of finality is as easy to grasp as the idea that we were created on this planet and will once again cease to exist.

I find the death of loved ones deeply saddening and as you say, torturous precisely because of this assumed finality.
Also, life without an end would be meaningless to me. It would be like groundhog day whereby you could do what you liked as the reprecussions for your actions wouldnt exist.

I was referring specifically to the possibility that your loved one may still be somewhere, and that you can still help them - the torturous bit is that this possibility goes against all your own intellectual beliefs, but the possibility of it still nags.

El_Duderino 09

housetypeb wrote: »

I agree, I lost my wife through suicide two years ago and I dont waste time wondering if she's in heaven or hell or another galaxy or what ever.
She's dead and I miss he and remember the times we had together but i have no expectation that I will ever see her again.
life is short and random,death is final and comes to us all sooner or later one way or another, so enjoy life while you can because this is not a dress rehearsal for heaven.
I lurk in the other forum now and again, and frankly, the rubbish they spiel over there is laughable.

Hey man i lost my father 2 years ago through suicide and feel much the same as your self about death and the dead. but i was out handing out remembrance cards with my mother at the weekend and one woman met me at the door and said she often talks to my dad. part of me wishes i could believe in all that. more to the point part of me wishes it was true and i could be justified in believing it.