The Mess that is Africa

I don't really know where to post this so here will do for now! Firstly, I am not racist or anything like that. I was just thinking one day is it me or are a lot of African countries just incapable of self rule or governing themselves, and as a consequence that is why they are so poor and not highly developed -as opposed to being poor due to the Western world's greedy economic and colonial policies. I mean you have the dictatorships and then the supposedly democratic countries that are just rife with eternal conflict. It seems no group or tribe wants to be governed by the other, and are willing to kill and disturb the peace to get what they want. Also, having children while residing at a refugee camp seems ridiculous to me yet its what happens. The continent is rife with HIV, yet they still going around spreading the disease like there is no tomorrow. It's almost as if they don't want to help themselves. I can only think of Botswana as an example of a democratic country that is really progressing. Maybe South Africa, but that place is a (beautiful) mess. There is a lot of money going into Africa via aid, charities, etc. but is the continent ever going to develop properly, have law and order, a sophisticated economy, etc? On the other-hand, if Africa was as developed as the West, it would loose some of unique, exciting, diverse and unspoiled features, if you understand me?!

grizzly

In before "Ireland is incapable of self rule or governing..."

phasers

Ireland is incapable of self rule or governing...

Killer Pigeon

Just kick it, problem solved.

Tonyandthewhale

Deleted User wrote: »

Firstly, I am not racist or anything like that...

Oh noes!

profitius

The most successful country in Africa is South Africa and thats because it was built up by the Dutch. So that goes some way to explain things.

The African countries are also crippled by debt. The banks have been robbing them for decades just like they're doing to Ireland now although Ireland will never be as bad as Africa.

carfiosaoorl

My thinking is if the western world had left them to fcuk alone in the first place they would be fine.

Blisterman

I read an interesting article, arguing that Ireland could have very well turned out like an African country post-independence, after all, there was a civil war.

However, the writer argued that it was the fact that Ireland had been ruled by the UK for so long, that it had somewhat of a "civilising" influence, that other countries which become independent don't have. For example we had a legal system in place, which remained much the same, as did the political system.

FreudianSlippers

carfiosaoorl wrote: »

My thinking is if the western world had left them to fcuk alone in the first place they would be fine.

The same thing can be said about the middle east IMHO.

Jeboa Safari

Any aid given to Africa should have conditions attached, there's too much corruption in many of the countries. The continued rapid population growth in countries that already can't sustain themselves is a ticking time bomb, that I can't see ending well.

Johro

I remember years ago reading a book called 'Ireland, A Terrible Beauty' by Leon Uris, with photographs by his wife Jill, really well put together and great pictures, all about the mess that was Ireland.

DublinWriter

Blisterman wrote: »

I read an interesting article, arguing that Ireland could have very well turned out like an African country post-independence

Civil War? Check.
Corruption? Check.
Multi-national exploitation of natural resources? Check.

FreudianSlippers

I like the idea of turning the deserts of Africa into a giant solar power station.
Cheap, renewable energy for all of Europe and it gives Africa potential to make money.

Too bad about all the corruption though.

Latchy

Well Zimbabwe was in far better shape and at least it's people were better fed before Mugabe turned it into the chaotic mess it is now . Aid money ending up in the wrong hands or into the hands of despots is the biggest problem of all so until that massive problem is solved for starters , it's a case of as you were .

XxMCRxBabyxX

Having been brought up in Botswana and then studied it in later years I have seen the respect that is held for the government over there and know first hand the good job that they're doing. The Khama's particularly have are greatly admired by the Setswana although they are not entirely perfect either!

It's a pity that more African governments could not follow that example. There are some African nationalities that actually have a reputation for being corrupt and many avoid dealing with them. I don't know if it's a race or culture thing or what but it seems that power can have a very adverse affect on those who gain it in Africa I can't explain why, but I certainly wish I could. Leaders such as Mugabe and Zuma need to be gotten rid of!

Turtyturd

You forgot to mention their football teams are terrible OP...it's like 11 headless chickens running around the football pitch after a loose chicken...gotta get that sorted first...priorities.

Fight_Night

Corrupt leaders and dictators aren't exactly something new and exclusive to Africa.

Also take into account that Nigeria has quite a good growing economy, and Egypt isn't in bad shape either.

Up-n-atom!

My thinking is if the western world had left them to fcuk alone in the first place they would be fine.

+1. And if you start a sentence with 'I'm not racist but...' you can be sure it's 100% racist! Funny how no one's mentioned how Western influence still pervades in Africa - there's plenty of dodgy tied aid and exploitation from western companies - sure how can you have cheap raw materials and a market for weapons if everything is running smoothly?!

My name is URL

People talk about 'developing countries' in a way which makes the west seem completely infallible. Yeah, they are developing.. and so are we. Our own survival depends on the integration of all societies. The amount of **** we see about carbon emmissions while at the same time being persuaded to help countries 'develop' the same models of turning a profit that caused a lot of our own problems to begin with. That's real development for ya!

iPlop

Fight_Night wrote: »

Corrupt leaders and dictators aren't exactly something new and exclusive to Africa.

Also take into account that Nigeria has quite a good growing economy, and Egypt isn't in bad shape either.

Nigeria is the second biggest Guinness drinking country in the world and is the only place on earth that they can still advertise that "it's good for you"

El Siglo

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't really no where to post this so here will do for now! Firstly, I am not racist or anything like that. I was just thinking one day is it me or are a lot of African countries just incapable of self rule or governing themselves, and as a consequence that is why they are so poor and not highly developed -as opposed to being poor due to the Western world's greedy economic and colonial policies. I mean you have the dictatorships and then the supposedly democratic countries that are just rife with eternal conflict. It seems no group or tribe wants to be governed by the other, and are willing to kill and disturb the peace to get what they want. Also, having children while residing at a refugee camp seems ridiculous to me yet its what happens The continent is rife with HIV, yet they still going around spreading the disease like there is no tomorrow. It's almost as if they don't want to help themselves. I can only think of Botswana as an example of a democratic country that is really progressing. Maybe South Africa, but that place is a (beautiful) mess. There is a lot of money going into Africa via aid, charities, etc. but is the continent ever going to develop properly, have law and order, a sophisticated economy, etc? On the other-hand, if Africa was as developed as the West, it would loose some of unique, exciting, diverse and unspoiled features, if you understand me?!

Op, you should probably read; Guns, Germs and Steel by Jared Diamond and Confessions of an Economic Hitman by John Perkins. It's not a question of Africans being incapable of being able to run their own countries, it's the impact and subsequent fallout from colonialism and neo-colonialism (Chinese are making some ground on the latter).

Badgermonkey

Paul Theroux revisited Malawi in the 90's, he had taught there from 1963 -1965 and was shocked by the malaise he found, where standards of education, governance and infrastructure had fallen off almost totally in the intervening years.

The expulsion of south Asian businessmen and women in the 1970's robbed much of southern Africa of entrepreneurial talent, stores decayed, import and export suffered and croneyism and self interest flourished.

Perhaps Chinese investment in Africa will be a good thing, can't help thinking they're strip mining on a grand scale though.

The West needs to reassess the Industry that is the provision of aid.
There are too many NGO's faffing about, unbelieveable wastage by the UN and the sad reinforcement of Africa as a helpless, ravaged wasteland of hopelessness.

It's problems are obviously complex but it is Africans who ultimately control their own destiny.

#15

profitius wrote: »

The most successful country in Africa is South Africa and thats because it was built up by the Dutch. So that goes some way to explain things.

It goes nowhere near explaining it tbf.

KeithAFC

Just poor countries. Nothing you can do about it.

Mister men

Is it cause i'm black?
>>>> In an Ali G accent <<<<

starbelgrade

Jeboa Safari wrote: »

Any aid given to Africa should have conditions attached, there's too much corruption in many of the countries. The continued rapid population growth in countries that already can't sustain themselves is a ticking time bomb, that I can't see ending well.

Aid shouldn't be given to Africa at all. It does more harm than good.

Attaching conditions to it does even less good... especially when you get the likes of Bush's regime attaching conditions to aid, such as stipulating that any countries receiving it should not provide funding to abortion clinics.

And anyone who thinks that Africans are incapable of self rule, is racist, no matter how they try to dress it up.

Fight_Night

Sink The Banana wrote: »

Nigeria is the second biggest Guinness drinking country in the world and is the only place on earth that they can still advertise that "it's good for you"

well there ya go :pac:

El Siglo wrote: »

Op, you should probably read; Guns, Germs and Steel by Jared Diamond

+1 that's a brilliant book

ascanbe

Badgermonkey wrote: »

Paul Theroux revisited Malawi in the 90's, he had taught there from 1963 -1965 and was shocked by the malaise he found, where standards of education, governance and infrastructure had fallen off almost totally in the intervening years.

The expulsion of south Asian businessmen and women in the 1970's robbed much of southern Africa of entrepreneurial talent, stores decayed, import and export suffered and croneyism and self interest flourished.

Perhaps Chinese investment in Africa will be a good thing, can't help thinking they're strip mining on a grand scale though.

The West needs to reassess the Industry that is the provision of aid.
There are too many NGO's faffing about, unbelieveable wastage by the UN and the sad reinforcement of Africa as a helpless, ravaged wasteland of hopelessness.

It's problems are obviously complex but it is Africans who ultimately control their own destiny.

The main problem is that, in many cases, the majority of citizens aren't.
Contol is in the hands of despotic regimes who are propped up and given 'aid' by some western countries in return for access to and control of the country's raw-materials.
The aid given by NGO's is merely for fire-fighting the consequent problems and can do little to help the people of these countries take control of their own destiny.
As with most things, it's a question of politics.

Elohim

I always love when people start off by saying they're not racist. Just because you're pointing out the flaws in African countries doesn't mean you're racist, you're just commenting on trends that you're observing.

Turtyturd wrote: »

You forgot to mention their football teams are terrible OP...it's like 11 headless chickens running around the football pitch after a loose chicken...gotta get that sorted first...priorities.

While we're on the generalisations, don't you mean 11 headless chickens with good pace and acceleration but little intelligence on the football pitch.

Somebody mentioned in another thread the usual priorities of Africans from self interest to national interest (can't remember what's in between) which is often used to explain why so many governments are so corrupt there.

scientific1982

Africa is in the state its in because it suits the west. They have abundant natural resources and western countries/multinationals want them at the cheapest prices possible.

fontanalis

DublinWriter wrote: »

Civil War? Check.
Corruption? Check.
Multi-national exploitation of natural resources? Check.

What???

mikemac

El Siglo wrote: »

Op, you should probably read; Guns, Germs and Steel by Jared Diamond and

This is also up on youtube, it's quite long but excellent

The Dagda

Who's gonna make all of our "stuff" cheaply when China and India become first world countries with decent wages?

AFRICA.

It suits the western capitalists to keep the continent down until they're needed...

fontanalis

profitius wrote: »

The most successful country in Africa is South Africa and thats because it was built up by the Dutch. So that goes some way to explain things.

The African countries are also crippled by debt. The banks have been robbing them for decades just like they're doing to Ireland now although Ireland will never be as bad as Africa.

South Africa has a climate similar to California and Southern Australia, great potential for crops and live stock which weren't native to the area but which the Dutch brought which was a big factor in their success.

mariebeth

From what I've read, Africa is in the state it is because of the countries that colonised it. They created country borders that suited them, not taking in to account all the different native tribes and their traditional boundaries. Apparently that is one of the reasons for all the civil wars and corruption.

Terry

Colonialism.
Blame the Brits, French and Dutch for the problems in Africa today.
They drew up the maps and divided tribal lands.

Throw in the greed of the Yanks and the Chinese and it's nothing but trouble.

Terry

Also, Islam and Christianity.

fontanalis

Terry wrote: »

Also, Islam and Christianity.

I don't think the tribal beliefs help either. isn't there some pretty repulsive ones regarding AIDs?

Wompa1

I saw an interesting book on Africa but didn't end up buying it, the gist of it was how Africa was once prosperous and had everything necessary to be a viable economic state but due to greed and corruption on their own part they completely plundered every penny. All foreign aide is being spent by corrupt governments or organizations. I agree with the questioning of those that have kids when they are in refugee camps...it is nuts.

eamo12

carfiosaoorl wrote: »

My thinking is if the western world had left them to fcuk alone in the first place they would be fine.

Oh I wish we would. The money spent on overpaid Irish Aid workers in their compounds living the colonial lifestyle in Africa is nauseating while they throw crumbs to the needy. I know - I was there.

desaparecidos

Some races are inferior to others, simple really.



Mod: Poster banned.

starbelgrade

desaparecidos wrote: »

Some races are inferior to others, simple really.

Some posts are inferior to others. Yours would be one of them.

Terry

fontanalis wrote: »

I don't think the tribal beliefs help either. isn't there some pretty repulsive ones regarding AIDs?

A lot of those are derived from their form of Catholicism. They would be far more staunch than Ireland. Had AIDS been discovered in the 1950's, then we would probably be in the same situation. Ireland, as a nation, was lucky that AIDS was discovered towards the end of the reign of the Catholic Church here.

Tribal beliefs do play a part, but so does the Catholic church, or whatever form of Christianity the locals follow. It's akin to the incorporation of Christianity into Voodoo in Haiti and the surrounding areas.

Outside interference has done a lot of damage to Africa over the last 1,000 or so years. Most African countries would most likely be up with the West were it not for countless invasions by superior forces.

The West is to blame in part, but so is the Middle East and the introduction of Islam.

Up-n-atom!

Up-n-atom! wrote: »

+1. And if you start a sentence with 'I'm not racist but...' you can be sure it's 100% racist! Funny how no one's mentioned how Western influence still pervades in Africa - there's plenty of dodgy tied aid and exploitation from western companies - sure how can you have cheap raw materials and a market for weapons if everything is running smoothly?!

You are wrong. I am not racist in any shape or form. End of. That is clear cut.

Son Of A Vidic

A lot of posters have correctly pointed out a lot of the reasons for Africa's woes. Exploitation, colonialism and debt have all played their part no doubt. But African's themselves have also had a say in their current plight, it might not be PC to say it but it's reality. Many African nations have been independent for quiet a while now, yet continue to go retrograde. Less focus a tribalism and perhaps more of an emphasis on national unity might be a helpful start. Rwanda was the ultimate example of tribal butchery. Governments obsessed with acquiring weaponry rather than building a viable nation, has been a common problem. Perhaps if there was a total ban on weapon sales on the African continent, that might foster non-aggression and mature dialogue rather that the alternative which we have seen for far to long.

kowloon

eamo12 wrote: »

Oh I wish we would. The money spent on overpaid Irish Aid workers in their compounds living the colonial lifestyle in Africa is nauseating while they throw crumbs to the needy. I know - I was there.

I'd be interested to hear more about your experiences. A lot of people can repeat what they've read or seen on the TV, not as many can say they've seen much first hand.

brianthebard

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

A lot of posters have correctly pointed out a lot of the reasons for Africa's woes. Exploitation, colonialism and debt have all played their part no doubt. But African's themselves have also had a say in their current plight, it might not be PC to say it but it's reality. Many African nations have been independent for quiet a while now, yet continue to go retrograde. Less focus a tribalism and perhaps more of an emphasis on national unity might be a helpful start. Rwanda was the ultimate example of tribal butchery.

What events do you think created the Rwandan genocide? how did independence in say the 1960s-1990s in the Congo differ to Belgian rule for instance?

fontanalis

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

A lot of posters have correctly pointed out a lot of the reasons for Africa's woes. Exploitation, colonialism and debt have all played their part no doubt. But African's themselves have also had a say in their current plight, it might not be PC to say it but it's reality. Many African nations have been independent for quiet a while now, yet continue to go retrograde. Less focus a tribalism and perhaps more of an emphasis on national unity might be a helpful start. Rwanda was the ultimate example of tribal butchery. Governments obsessed with acquiring weaponry rather than building a viable nation, has been a common problem. Perhaps if there was a total ban on weapon sales on the African continent, that might foster non-aggression and mature dialogue rather that the alternative which we have seen for far to long.

I remember in Jared Diamonds Collapse he claimed land ownership issues played a bigger part. Also the population grew rapidly and women gave birth to more children and at earlier ages.
Some responsibility does have to rest with the African countires. Don't other countries leaders still treat Mugabe as if he's some bloody nice bloke?

Ulysses Gaze

Look at the guys who have led African countries though and destroyed them even further economically. To name a few. Now some, such as Seko, were backed by the West to try and stop the spread of Communism in the 1970's:

Sani Abacha
Idi Amin
Charles Taylor
Mugabe
Al-Bashir
Siad Barre
Kabila
Seko
Haile Selassie
Bokassa (a total nutcase).

But it's not unique to Africa. South America in the 1970's was just as bad. Argentina's economy was wiped out in the 1970's & 1980's by the suicidal economic policies of Videla and also the Dirty War.. Plenty of Junta's in that region of the world too.

Some of the former Soviet republics also have "benevolent" dictators in charge that siphon off huge amounts of money for themselves. Uzbekistan, Kazakstan, Kyrgystan (all the Stans!), Georgia, Belarus......

mikemac

Rhodesia was one of the more successful African countries, economically anyway

Then then there was a regime change and look at Zimbabwe now. They may have been better off without their African leadership

Badgermonkey

ascanbe wrote: »

The main problem is that, in many cases, the majority of citizens aren't.

I think you misinterpreted me.

A right to vote in a democratic system is a different matter, what I said was Africans will ultimately control their own destiny.

The fall of the iron curtain illustrated the innate longing for fair play, justice and self determination present in all of us (though less likely to manifest under theocratic regimes).

When something sparks those who are unfairly treated under politically repressive systems, people are given the chance to show great courage to effect change and they very often grasp it.