hay what is the deal w/ the internalised homophobia on this board?

Hardaway

every second thread is 20somthing closeted dudes opining that the "scene" is full of camp trannies and that there is too much tacky pop music. and every "issue" q. seems to find a way of advising ppl to be more accommodating of their homophobe parents/friends fiances. seems kindof depressing and gross.

Annasopra

Hardaway wrote: »

every second thread is 20somthing closeted dudes opining that the "scene" is full of camp trannies and that there is too much tacky pop music. and every "issue" q. seems to find a way of advising ppl to be more accommodating of their homophobe parents/friends fiances. seems kindof depressing and gross.

I dont think that not particularly liking drag or cheesy pop is akin at all to internalised homophobia - Its just liking different things then what is on offer on the scene. As for advising people to be more accommodating of homophobic people - there were only 2 threads about this and there was not as such a consensus on the advice given at all

Chuchoter

Not liking **** music does not make you homophobic. Asking for a scene that includes someone other than people who like crazy loud clubs is not internalized homophobia either.

A lemon

Hardaway wrote: »

every second thread is 20somthing closeted dudes opining that the "scene" is full of camp trannies and that there is too much tacky pop music. and every "issue" q. seems to find a way of advising ppl to be more accommodating of their homophobe parents/friends fiances. seems kindof depressing and gross.

I really do think there is too much tacky pop music on the scene for my liking. I've been told that I'm not in touch with my inner queen - that I totally will love it as I grow to accept myself. Your post just reeks of more of the same. It's as if you think that your personality is determined by your sexuality, therefore anyone that doesn't share your ideals is clearly suffering from...dum, dum, dummmmmmmmmmm:

:eek::eek::eek:INTERNALISED HOMOPHOBIA!!!:eek::eek::eek:

Rubbish.

Hardaway

1. yah i guess to me this whole attitude seems p. myopically ignorant of the history of "queer spaces" and how they have historically been carved out by ppl whose sexual difference is something visibly obvious ie. drag queens, trannies, effeminate "sissy" boys, dykey girls. It seems kindof gross but inevitable that these ppl would rhetorically get disowned w/n the supposedly inclusive lgbt banner that is supposed to include them esp. when its to privilege the endlessly privileged grey normativity of straight culture.

2. seems p. dishonest to suddenly differentiate "****ty chart music" and camp behaviour when in gen. in these threads both are invoked simultaneously w/ one as a shorthand for the other. that's not to say that its just these threads that make the connection, a lot of **** music is in the charts i mean my god that jason mraz eejit but in gen. it seems to be music that has roots in disco and house music (music w/ historical origins in gay culture) that is marked as the signifier of what is crappy about "gay culture" in ireland and its supposedly prohibitive normativity and homogeneity.

3. u r all kindof misunderstanding what camp is or means, i guess that you mean like "effeminate" or something. And the endless parade of "masc only" or w/e in gay personals tends to underline the prejudices that i suspect are persistent here. Camp is an emphasis on artifice and exaggeration, this is why it gets applied to drag acts for eg. bc of how they tend to appropriate and distort elements of what is considered "feminine" and utilise that as a discursive property, a set of signs in a system of gender that can be recalibrated according to desire, an empowerment to appropriate the signifiers of gender. You could probably call the appropriation of the most boring and grey elements of -"straight culture?" idk- and its weird primacy here another exaggeration of camp.

Chuchoter

From what I could read of that, unless we make a big show of how gay we are we're bad queers with little understanding of history? Maybe I'm being too grey and boring and straight, but theres actually more to me than being gay.

Hardaway

A lemon wrote: »

I really do think there is too much tacky pop music on the scene for my liking. I've been told that I'm not in touch with my inner queen - that I totally will love it as I grow to accept myself. Your post just reeks of more of the same. It's as if you think that your personality is determined by your sexuality, therefore anyone that doesn't share your ideals is clearly suffering from...dum, dum, dummmmmmmmmmm:

:eek::eek::eek:INTERNALISED HOMOPHOBIA!!!:eek::eek::eek:

Rubbish.

yah i guess this only works if ur assuming i go in for the same kind of essentialism that u obviously do. the linking of value systems is something that kindof predates anything i've said here. anyone objecting to me on the basis of me being prescriptive about "correct behaviour" or w/e is intentionally or not totally misreading me.

A lemon

Hardaway wrote: »

yah i guess this only works if ur assuming i go in for the same kind of essentialism that u obviously do. the linking of value systems is something that kindof predates anything i've said here. anyone objecting to me on the basis of me being prescriptive about "correct behaviour" or w/e is intentionally or not totally misreading me.

I believe you're in the wrong forum.

Hardaway

u want me to ask the philosophy ppl y u hate urselves?

spurious

Looks like you started this thread to give your speech on how much we hate ourselves.

I know well what camp is thanks and I'm around plenty long enough to remember when the gay 'scene' could have fitted in my front room.

I still hate crap music played too loud. By all means have it somewhere, but not anywhere I want to go.

Annasopra

OP I dont understand half of what you are saying because you are using text speak abbreviations and it takes me ages to translate those into proper english - would you mind using less abbreviations and text speak?

wonderfulname

English please!

/back-seat modding

I can't stand the stereotype, not the people, not what they get up to on a Friday night, just the stupid bloody idea that that's what I should be like just because I'm gay, well I'm not, and never will. That doesn't mean I hate myself, that I'm shunning my sexuality or that I hate camp/butch/<insert-scene-stereotype-here> people. It just means its not for me, and quite frankly, I just don't care, get over it.

EDIT: Damn you Johnny, getting there first!

Nevyn

I'd really like to enguge on this but, I can't understand the posts made by Hardaway.
The textspeak plays havoc with my dyslexia.

Dr. Baltar

Seconded. I find this kid of conversation very interesting but I find txt speak makes my brain full of fúck.

I am not against LGBT culture nor am I against the scene per se. It's just I don't enjoy it. I'm not straight, but that attribute of me is certainly not the most important thing you need to know about me.

I relate a hell of a lot more to nerds who watch sci fi than I do to people who have the same sexuality as me.
With the nerds I can talk about a thousand different themes in a thousand different mediums but with people of my same sexuality we like the same sex. Big Deal?

If that makes me a "bad gay" then so be it. I am me, I'm not "that gay fella living down the road".

bodice ripper

I don't see that I owe it to "gay culture" (which I am dubious about at best..) to enjoy or endure drag acts/horrendous pop. And accusations of "internalised homophobia" do little to convince me otherwise.

and I don't see how "straight culture" is any more inclined to "grey normativity" either.

Quentinkrisp

I spy with my little eye something that begins with 'T' and ends in 'L':rolleyes:
Hint: it lives under bridges

esposito

Dr. Baltar wrote: »

Seconded. I find this kid of conversation very interesting but I find txt speak makes my brain full of fúck.

I am not against LGBT culture nor am I against the scene per se. It's just I don't enjoy it. I'm not straight, but that attribute of me is certainly not the most important thing you need to know about me.

I relate a hell of a lot more to nerds who watch sci fi than I do to people who have the same sexuality as me.
With the nerds I can talk about a thousand different themes in a thousand different mediums but with people of my same sexuality we like the same sex. Big Deal?

If that makes me a "bad gay" then so be it. I am me, I'm not "that gay fella living down the road".

Well said. I would like to echo your last line.

anotherlostie

Maybe the point is that given all the talk of inclusiveness in relation to our T members, we are excluding those who love the cheesy pop and drag queens in these threads through the criticism?!

Nevyn

Drag queen*, pop music and dance music aren't my cup of tea either, it's one of the many reasons, I don't ever requent the 'Gay' bars/pubs. If other people like it fair enough but there seems to be a fair few people saying the same, it's just not thier preference.

*The two drag king acts I have seen were very intresting.

Links234

I think there's two things here

I can see the internalised homophobia to a degree, because it always worries me when some gay people will complain or deride others for being camp or effeminate or being visibly gay. sometimes I think people like to define themselves against something or someone, to have someone to kick down to or throw under a bus. maybe it's a privilege thing?

but I don't think it's the same thing if someone doesn't like the music in the venues, or doesn't enjoy drag acts, they have internalised homophobia. there are plenty of people who don't feel that gay culture has to be a monoculture, and plenty of people who would enjoy alternative gay scenes. there's a big distinction.

Nevyn

I don't think it's a privelge thing, I think it is chaffing at the asumptions and generalisations people make. I get pissed off when people assume that due to my presented gender that I am into fashion and shoes and expect me to behave in a certain manner and have certain intrests and I can see that if those exact same assumptions were made of a guy due to his sexuality it would piss them off.

I guess it's like sexism, maybe it's sexualityism, making assumptions that a person is a certain way and has certain intrests due to thier sexuality.

stephen_n

Links234 wrote: »

I think there's two things here

I can see the internalised homophobia to a degree, because it always worries me when some gay people will complain or deride others for being camp or effeminate or being visibly gay. sometimes I think people like to define themselves against something or someone, to have someone to kick down to or throw under a bus. maybe it's a privilege thing?

but I don't think it's the same thing if someone doesn't like the music in the venues, or doesn't enjoy drag acts, they have internalised homophobia. there are plenty of people who don't feel that gay culture has to be a monoculture, and plenty of people who would enjoy alternative gay scenes. there's a big distinction.

Maybe your only refering to more extreme instances of this but in most cases on here from what I have seen posted there isn't a problem with people being camp or efeminate as such. The problem comes with certain people who put a little bit too much emphasis on the LOUD and proud part of being gay. The ones that assume if you aren't an absolute screamer then your still half in the closet. There are those who struggle with having any sort of Gay indentity and at the other end of the spectrum who use their sexuality as an offensive weapon. I don't think their is widespread internalised homophobia any more than there is widespread hetrophobia but there will always be some extremes it's the nature of life.

Azure_sky

Hardaway wrote: »

every second thread is 20somthing closeted dudes opining that the "scene" is full of camp trannies and that there is too much tacky pop music. and every "issue" q. seems to find a way of advising ppl to be more accommodating of their homophobe parents/friends fiances. seems kindof depressing and gross.

That's not a criticism of homosexuality(internalised homophobia), it's a critcism of the (stereotypical) homosexual sub-culture-major difference.

Goodshape

There's no self hatred, belittling of camp guys (intentionally anyway!) or homophobia here. I'm as proud to be gay as I am about any other aspect of my life and person. Coming out is probably the best thing I've ever done in my life -- both in terms of personal and mental health and development (big time!) and for opening doors, granting new opportunities, etc.

One of the things I was genuinely afraid of before coming out was that awful pop music, shallow bitchy behaviour and a love of kitch was part and parcel with the whole thing. Yes, it's silly and obviously wrong but such was the fear. I was a Nirvana loving kid, with long scraggily hair, who wore whatever was close at hand when he woke up. The thought that I'd have to change all that, alienate my friends, and become "a gay" was pretty scary.

When I did come out I realised what now seems so obvious -- I woke up the next morning the same messy haired, hippy looking, Nirvana loving guy I always was. Then all I had to do was explain to everyone else, each and every time I came out to anyone, that no, actually, I still don't like shopping. Nope, pop music not for me. That's right, I'm still the same guy. It made (and continues to make) me wonder why people still have that idea of gay men when the majority of gay guys I've met just don't fit the sterotype.

Then I go out to a "gay" club/pub/event.... and I see why.


I wouldn't necessarily want the reverse situation to be true... where the disco loving over-sexual gays get marginalised and forgotten about within the community... but at the moment the drag, pop and disco seem to have an overwhelming monopoly and it's certainly not internalised homophobia or self hatred when I say I'd like to see something for the rest of us.

I suspect the response might be different somewhere like GCN forums (not sure really) but from posters on this forum it seems I'm far from alone in not feeling particularly well represented or catered for out on the fabled "scene".

A lemon

^ Considering this is such a difficult subject to discuss without being accused of some sort of prejudice or deep rooted issue, I thought that was very articulately put.

Quentinkrisp

Goodshape wrote: »

There's no self hatred, belittling of camp guys (intentionally anyway!) or homophobia here. I'm as proud to be gay as I am about any other aspect of my life and person. Coming out is probably the best thing I've ever done in my life -- both in terms of personal and mental health and development (big time!) and for opening doors, granting new opportunities, etc.

One of the things I was genuinely afraid of before coming out was that awful pop music, shallow bitchy behaviour and a love of kitch was part and parcel with the whole thing. Yes, it's silly and obviously wrong but such was the fear. I was a Nirvana loving kid, with long scraggily hair, who wore whatever was close at hand when he woke up. The thought that I'd have to change all that, alienate my friends, and become "a gay" was pretty scary.

When I did come out I realised what now seems so obvious -- I woke up the next morning the same messy haired, hippy looking, Nirvana loving guy I always was. Then all I had to do was explain to everyone else, each and every time I came out to anyone, that no, actually, I still don't like shopping. Nope, pop music not for me. That's right, I'm still the same guy. It made (and continues to make) me wonder why people still have that idea of gay men when the majority of gay guys I've met just don't fit the sterotype.

Then I go out to a "gay" club/pub/event.... and I see why.


I wouldn't necessarily want the reverse situation to be true... where the disco loving over-sexual gays get marginalised and forgotten about within the community... but at the moment the drag, pop and disco seem to have an overwhelming monopoly and it's certainly not internalised homophobia or self hatred when I say I'd like to see something for the rest of us.

I suspect the response might be different somewhere like GCN forums (not sure really) but from posters on this forum it seems I'm far from alone in not feeling particularly well represented or catered for out on the fabled "scene".

this post hit the nail on the head. I feel the exact same way. Not liking cheesy pop/loud behaviour/packed nightclubs is purely a matter of personal taste. sexuality and homophobia have feckall to do with this.
I was the exact same, i liked indie/rock/metal and wore nothing but jeans+sweatshirts before i came out, and i continue to do so after i came out. coming out changed precious little about me except that i'm more confident in my sexuality. oh and i also loathe shopping unless its absolutely necessary.

scientific1982

Pretty stupid argument OP. Are straight males who dont live up to the stereotype of liking football and drinking beer, self hating. Are straight women who dont like shopping and x-factor, self hating. Everyone is an individual.

Endymion

Links234 wrote: »

I can see the internalised homophobia to a degree, because it always worries me when some gay people will complain or deride others for being camp or effeminate or being visibly gay. sometimes I think people like to define themselves against something or someone, to have someone to kick down to or throw under a bus. maybe it's a privilege thing?

You'd find most of that is probably rooted in a deep seeded fear that the person is effeminate themselves. It isn't fear of the differences between people, it's fear of the similarities. In my experience, some of the most adamant "fem haters" have been pretty limp wristed themselves. It's not homophobic, but as you said it demonstrates an inability to defines oneself without comparison to others and ultimately a major character flaw.

That said, sometimes it's just a distaste for loud, annoying, mean and self obsessed air heads.

DubArk

Links234 wrote: »

I can see the internalised homophobia to a degree, because it always worries me when some gay people will complain or deride others for being camp or effeminate or being visibly gay. sometimes I think people like to define themselves against something or someone, to have someone to kick down to or throw under a bus. maybe it's a privilege thing?

I refer to this as the ‘See – Saw Syndrome’. The more you put people down, the more you feel up!!

wonderfulname

DubArk wrote: »

I refer to this as the ‘See – Saw Syndrome’. The more you put people down, the more you feel up!!

I really don't think that's the case! Fair enough its here to a degree, but its not from people bigging themselves up. I'd say its more from people with a chip on their shoulder over their treatment at the hands of themselves and others thanks to stereotypes. People who messed their heads up worrying over the fact their personality or dress sense didn't match the stereotypical one for their sexuality, or who convinced themselves they would have to change their lifestyle completely if they came out. Or those who were driven mad by others making stupid assumptions based on sexuality. Most of the time its not at all intended, just sheer frustration.

Endymion

That's still having a problem with someone, for reasons which are completely out of their control. A drag queen cannot help it that some people think all gays love ABBA.