Job advertisement looking for minimum leaving cert points

InchicoreDude

Today in the news, there are reports of new jobs in a company called Murex. So I went on to their recruitment website to see what kind of jobs, they have. I came across this job;

http://careers.murex.com/jobopportunity.php?of=2&fct=-1&kw=&oppOff=1

What struck me about the advertisement is that you need 450 leaving cert points. Is this legal? I have never seen a requirement like this on a job before. It seems a bit of a bizarre requirement for somebody who has come through 3rd level??

Mr. Loverman

Why would it be illegal?

It's just like saying you must have a 3rd level degree, etc.

tHE vAGGABOND

What has your points in the leaving got to do with anything...

TBH if I saw that in a job add I would instantly skip onto the next job add as I dont want to work for a company who would do that, A company full of people who are good at learning stuff off but may not understand it

Malice

Wow, I checked out that link thinking that they would be sales or marketing jobs but no, there's one for a Java developer:

1.1 or 2.1 degree in Computer Science / Maths / Software Engineering/ Physics
450+ CAO points (please ensure you provide full details of subjects, grades, and CAO points achieved on your CV - or equivalent to Leaving Certifcate)
Knowledge of Java programming is a prerequisite

As tHE vAGGABOND said, I would just move straight on to the next job listing. I did my Leaving Cert in 1997, I have no idea what grades I got and I'm not about to go digging through years of junk to find out. If my third level degree and multiple professional certifications aren't enough for them then they probably aren't the kind of company I want to work for .

discus

Jesus christ... "is this legal?", "I wouldn't be bothered with such a bunch", "A company full of people who are good at learning stuff off but may not understand it"

The leaving cert is a perfectly acceptable benchmark.

Your degree and "multiple professional certifications" were probably not as difficult to achieve as a good leaving cert. Not knocking them, but the workload is far higher than most inservice certs. I'm not being a leaving cert snob - I achieved less than 450 points myself - but thinking that it's snobby to use it as a measure of your academic potential is an over-the-top reaction.

It's like the IT vs university argument... now we're talking 3rd level vs 2nd level. Everything should be examined in its own right. LC scores do give an inherently broader view of a persons ability to absorb information across a spectrum of subjects, which may be a necessary skill for a certain position.

Having been through two 3rd level institutions and seeing how easy certain modules are, or how certain persons in positions of responibility can be "talked around" to upping a grade, I would certainly include a persons LC as worthy of examination at job application stage. Not as a defining yes/no to an applicant. Low maths scores for example, show in the LC, where scraping through every maths module in Uni will not show up. Similar to english comprehension etc.

Malice

discus wrote: »

The leaving cert is a perfectly acceptable benchmark.

I never said it wasn't. If an applicant has no other recognised qualifications then of course it's acceptable. I'm just surprised that a company would bother listing it as a job requirement unless it's a mis-guided attempt to weed out applicants from other countries or something.

discus wrote:

Your degree and "multiple professional certifications" were probably not as difficult to achieve as a good leaving cert. Not knocking them, but the workload is far higher than most inservice certs.

Why have you put "multiple professional certifications" in quotes, how would you know how difficult they were or were not to achieve and what's an inservice cert?

discus wrote:

I'm not being a leaving cert snob - I achieved less than 450 points myself - but thinking that it's snobby to use it as a measure of your academic potential is an over-the-top reaction.

Snobby is not the word I would use for the Leaving Cert as a measure of academic potential. The Leaving Cert rewards rote learning which as I think everyone can agree is not much use to you once you enter the working world.

InchicoreDude

Jesus christ... "is this legal?",

The reason I asked was it legal was just because I have NEVER seen it asked for before in a job advertisement. I have seen vague statements such as "A good leaving cert" etc. but never anything so specific so I thought I might be missing something. Obviously not...

Your degree and "multiple professional certifications" were probably not as difficult to achieve as a good leaving cert. Not knocking them, but the workload is far higher than most inservice certs. I'm not being a leaving cert snob - I achieved less than 450 points myself - but thinking that it's snobby to use it as a measure of your academic potential is an over-the-top reaction.

Personally, I found my degree much more difficult than my leaving cert. I didnt put any work into my leaving cert and obtained 400 points. I put a lot of work into my degree and just about got a 2.1. If I had put effort into the leaving cert, I am sure I could have done better. But back then, I was a very lazy student - I changed in college! And I wonder why should I be punished for my actions as a 17 year old if I was interested in this job (Which I am not). Surely, If I acquired the technical skills in 3rd level that this job requires, the fact that I only got a D in accountancy & Biology at leaving cert level should not be considered.

I can understand job advertisements asking for a good leaving cert or whatever where the job is low level and they want to know your basic level of education. But once you go into 3rd level, i really do not see what relevance your leaving cert has. In fact, I know of one acquaintance who hires and he advised me a couple of years ago to remove my secondary scholl information from my CV arguing "Why would you include that? You obviously have a leaving cert from your 3rd level education. 3rd level cancels out 2nd level". he used the same argument stating if you have a cert diploma, degree, you should only include the degree and it really makes the cert & diploma from the same course meaningless. Thats why I found it interesting to see a job looking for a specific points total.

Wow, I checked out that link thinking that they would be sales or marketing jobs but no, there's one for a Java developer:

What made you think so?

Acapella

Hey all,

I recently had an interview with a large Irish retail company for a position in head office. All was going fine until the interviewer asked the mandatory questions regarding education. Now I have a 1.1 Masters and a 2.1 degree so was not expecting questions regarding second level education.

The interviewer proceeded to ask me what secondary school did I attend and what points I attained in the Leaving Cert. Now I recieved 335 in my LC and I am no way ashamed of that fact yet the interviewer found it shocking. After I stated my points, a long pause followed before the interviewer carried on with more questions of 'Are you sure that is what you got in your Leaving Cert its very low' and 'You obviously had distractions to recieve points in that range'

Its safe to say I was absolutely fuming and I was offered a second interview but politely declined. I know it probably seems petty especially in the current climate but I am a firm believer of respect and doing what makes you happy and associating myself with such people would most def not make me happy!!!

All the Best,

Acapella

amen

The other problem with points is they change from year to year. Now I did my leaving way back in 1990 and we had a max of I think points. Now I didn't get 30 but I got points that put me in the around the top 10% of that year which if you convert to modern points is around the 400 mark.

If you take the top 10% of last year its well over 500. So for a job that requires degree asking for points seems a bit pointless.

gandalf

The problem at the moment is HR departments are giving too much weight to the wrong things. The leaving cert is next to useless as a barometer of your abilities once you have gone onto third level or have entered the work force.

All these people are doing is using this as a very lazy way to whittle down the numbers of applications.

Malice

InchicoreDude wrote: »

What made you think so?

Assuming you're asking me why I was surprised that a programming job was listed, it's for reasons that have been outlined on this thread already. If I'm going for a job as a programmer, I would expect to be quizzed on my programming qualifications and skills, not how well I was able to recall passages of Wuthering Heights.

dazberry

This is a graduate entry level position, and as such we are specifically interested in your academic background.

Given that it's a graduate position where most candidates would have little or no related work experience I can't see the issue. While they may discount good candidates due to the LC rule, well that's their call/mistake etc., at-least they're taking on graduates...

D.

discus

Acapella wrote: »

Its safe to say I was absolutely fuming and I was offered a second interview but politely declined. I know it probably seems petty especially in the current climate but I am a firm believer of respect and doing what makes you happy and associating myself with such people would most def not make me happy!!!

I hope you mention this when you sign on at the Social Welfare - "ah yeah, was offered a second interview, but I didn't like the fact that they didn't appreciate my LC points"

Funny, you regard 1 interviewer to represent a whole company. Any other great conclusions you jump to very often?

discus

gandalf wrote: »

The problem at the moment is HR departments are giving too much weight to the wrong things. The leaving cert is next to useless as a barometer of your abilities once you have gone onto third level or have entered the work force.

All these people are doing is using this as a very lazy way to whittle down the numbers of applications.

Well the only example we have so far involves Acappella who did have an about-average LC score, who still got through anyway.

I've been asked it too. I've had to explain a **** LC (just above 400) as well.... but if you're the right candidate, you'll get the job regardless.

Malice

Well I scored 275 in my Leaving Cert (did well in English and Irish and poor in everything else) so I probably wouldn't even get as far as the first interview stage .

imitation

discus wrote: »

Your degree and "multiple professional certifications" were probably not as difficult to achieve as a good leaving cert. Not knocking them, but the workload is far higher than most inservice certs. I'm not being a leaving cert snob - I achieved less than 450 points myself - but thinking that it's snobby to use it as a measure of your academic potential is an over-the-top reaction.

I agree in some respects, somebody with a good leaving cert has desirable traits, and I would definitely stick it on my CV. The problem is, the job ad instantly excludes anybody with a score of less than 450, which is stupid for a number of reasons, firstly they are looking for java programmers with lots of experience, these dont exactly grow on trees.

Secondly, what kind of metric is the leaving cert for a programmer (or many other professions) ? When I did it absolutely nothing was directly relevant (the only programming guide I got was a demo from the teacher of a cnc lathe). Maths, physics and applied maths may have had some pre-requisite stuff. The rest of the subjects were all irrelevant. Personally I did pretty poorly at the LC, due to lack of esteem and being 17 and singularly interested in computers at the time.

starlit

InchicoreDude wrote: »

Today in the news, there are reports of new jobs in a company called Murex. So I went on to their recruitment website to see what kind of jobs, they have. I came across this job;

http://careers.murex.com/jobopportunity.php?of=2&fct=-1&kw=&oppOff=1

What struck me about the advertisement is that you need 450 leaving cert points. Is this legal? I have never seen a requirement like this on a job before. It seems a bit of a bizarre requirement for somebody who has come through 3rd level??

Its quiet common OP. Have seen it myself advertised for some jobs but in particular those that are promoting graduate placement programs where they require candidates to have certain level of points achieved in their leaving certificate. It's unfair I know but if you got good degree results and relevant work experience there might be a consession for those who didn't achieve the required leaving certificate points.

highgiant1985

snuggles285 wrote: »

Its quiet common OP. Have seen it myself advertised for some jobs but in particular those that are promoting graduate placement programs where they require candidates to have certain level of points achieved in their leaving certificate. It's unfair I know but if you got good degree results and relevant work experience there might be a consession for those who didn't achieve the required leaving certificate points.

this is quite common I find though 450 is higher than what I would normally see. Alot of companies for example Accenture set the LC target at 400 points otherwise they won't give you an interview. As I got 390 points in my LC I found it v annoying at the time when I had just graduated but hey I got a job elsewhere so happy out

Faith+1

450 points? God that makes me feel stupid, only got 410

kippy

Have never seen a points requirement down as a job requirement but then again things are changing in the past few years.
Its not a great reflection on a company that they would use this as a barometer of someones skill and experience in a particular field but as someone has said its probably just another means of whittling down CV's before interview stage.

I dont think its a good idea to flatly not apply for jobs whereby you dont meet the minimum requirements, it hasnt stopped me in the past and I've managed to get interviews and indeed jobs out of them - the people doing the advertising may not be the same as those who whittle down the CV's/do the interviews.

I defo wouldnt let it put my off any particular company either, especially in this day and age.

Acapella

discus wrote: »

I hope you mention this when you sign on at the Social Welfare - "ah yeah, was offered a second interview, but I didn't like the fact that they didn't appreciate my LC points"

Funny, you regard 1 interviewer to represent a whole company. Any other great conclusions you jump to very often?

Funny, I never mentioned signing on and a little bit presumptious on your part thinking I am unemployed.

Any other conclusions I jump to very often? Yes, but to share them with you I may get a forum ban.

Also the situation I gave was my experience with employers and leaving cert points, although it was part of the reason I didn't go to the second interview it was not the whole reason.

All the Best,

Acapella

Eoin

It's most likely the HR manager putting in some arbitrary requirements that the successful candidate's line manager wouldn't give a crap about.

I don't have a degree, but have still applied for jobs that say it's mandatory - and it's not been a problem yet.

Jim2007

Malice_ wrote: »

I never said it wasn't. If an applicant has no other recognised qualifications then of course it's acceptable. I'm just surprised that a company would bother listing it as a job requirement unless it's a mis-guided attempt to weed out applicants from other countries or something.

In fairness to the company, I think it is an attempt to make sure that they get really smart people who perform consistently over the long run...

I don't know the company, but I do work in that area and I can confirm that it is very difficult to find the right people, either the people who are capable of doing it loose interest or the people who are interested just don't have the ability. The result is a high turn over of staff and high recruiting costs. So I guess it is a case of trying anything to reduce the cycle.

Having said that, I have to admit that I have my doubts that they will achieve their goal!

Jim.

InchicoreDude

I don't know the company, but I do work in that area and I can confirm that it is very difficult to find the right people

All the more reason to not include such a silly requirement.

Mr. Loverman

InchicoreDude wrote: »

All the more reason to not include such a silly requirement.

Why is it silly?

Personally I think it is a much better indicator of someone's academic ability than a degree.

In my class in college it was depressing the amount of people who paid someone else to do their final year project. You can't really do that in the Leaving Certificate!

Malice

Jim2007 wrote: »

I don't know the company, but I do work in that area and I can confirm that it is very difficult to find the right people, either the people who are capable of doing it loose interest or the people who are interested just don't have the ability.

What area is that?

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

Why is it silly?

Personally I think it is a much better indicator of someone's academic ability than a degree.

In my class in college it was depressing the amount of people who paid someone else to do their final year project. You can't really do that in the Leaving Certificate!

And what are those people going to do when they get called for an interview? Pay someone to do the interview for them? And then pay someone to do the job for them? If someone's utterly unsuitable for a job then that should become apparent during the interview stage unless they are a world-class spoofer or the interviewer is useless.

starlit

highgiant1985 wrote: »

this is quite common I find though 450 is higher than what I would normally see. Alot of companies for example Accenture set the LC target at 400 points otherwise they won't give you an interview. As I got 390 points in my LC I found it v annoying at the time when I had just graduated but hey I got a job elsewhere so happy out

I think the IT internships that last for like 6 months or something like that. April until after the summer. Its suppose to be a summer internship with Accenture. LC target is 300 points with a 2:1 computer science degree or equivalent. Its quiet common with a lot of graduate programmes stating the target of LC points and Final Degree result.

TBH I think what results you achieve in each of your subjects is more important than the final result and cannot understand why employers don't value that as much as colleges would. I only got the mid 300's in my LC points so happy with that, it was the best I could have achieved if I achieved any higher would have been unrealistic of my abilities to be honest. Most of my results in college were fantastic the best I could have hoped for and even better than I expected same when I felt about my leaving cert results and points. It shows ambition and determination and motivation to have done the exams at all! I still got some bit of work experience so far even with my LC points never really affected me much when I worked previously was more my degree and bit of work experience was more important than anything when I did get my previous jobs.

Mr. Loverman

Malice_ wrote: »

And what are those people going to do when they get called for an interview? Pay someone to do the interview for them? And then pay someone to do the job for them? If someone's utterly unsuitable for a job then that should become apparent during the interview stage unless they are a world-class spoofer or the interviewer is useless.

They all have good jobs now.

Mrs OBumble

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

Why would it be illegal?

It's just like saying you must have a 3rd level degree, etc.

It's actually the same as saying "Irish only: foreigners need not apply".

I could, and did, get a 3rd level degree in my country. No one there had ever heard of "leaving certificate" though, except perhaps as something that people got back in the "olden days" when people finished their education at the end of primary school.

Eoin

I wouldn't make that comparison at all.

However, I do think it's very silly to judge a person's suitability for a job on how they did in some outdated exams they did as kids.

MysticalRain

Eoin wrote: »

I wouldn't make that comparison at all.

However, I do think it's very silly to judge a person's suitability for a job on how they did in some outdated exams they did as kids.

I can see some point in an employer asking for a 2.1 degree. But judging someone by a bunch of exams they did years ago which focused on rote-learning Peig Saors and Shakespeare sounds very wrong to me. I know when I was in college studying IT, our lecturers had to force people to move beyond the bad habits they developed at LC level i.e. actually forcing students to understand a topic at a deep level instead of just mindlessly regurgitating text for exams.

Mr. Loverman

MysticalRain wrote: »

I can see some point in an employer asking for a 2.1 degree. But judging someone by a bunch of exams they did years ago which focused on rote-learning Peig Saors and Shakespeare sounds very wrong to me. I know when I was in college studying IT, our lecturers had to force people to move beyond the bad habits they developed at LC level i.e. actually forcing students to understand a topic at a deep level instead of just mindlessly regurgitating text for exams.

I don't know. My experience in college taught me the world is full of cheaters.

Personally I would rather hire someone with a good work ethic, good people skills, and a good attitude over some tosser who got 600 points, a first class honours degree and thinks the world owes him something.

But without going to extremes I like hiring people who have degrees as it at least shows they can commit to something.

If you've never interviewed people you won't realise how much of a gamble it is.

starlit

Some of the WPP's are now in on the act requiring those to have certain grades in the leaving certificate in a particular subject?! What's going on like, is having done a leaving cert and passing it along with decent points not enough as well as a degree like? What next! Be expected to have 10 years work experience or something for a mundane job? What gives...getting sick of these wpp's expecting those work for free. Bum them off so they let another person work for free not giving anyone else a chance to get a full time job out of it is mad. At least allow a few people to work in the job at a time for a few hours each might help that way they can pick the best one for a full time position then.

MysticalRain

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

I don't know. My experience in college taught me the world is full of cheaters.

Personally I would rather hire someone with a good work ethic, good people skills, and a good attitude over some tosser who got 600 points, a first class honours degree and thinks the world owes him something.

But without going to extremes I like hiring people who have degrees as it at least shows they can commit to something.

If you've never interviewed people you won't realise how much of a gamble it is.

I would agree that there is more to hiring people than whether or not they got 600 points in their leaving cert.

I can see a point for focusing on degrees for hiring graduates fresh out of college. But many of the best people I know in IT either never had a degree, or only possessed a degree in an area unrelated to IT. So it is not always the best way of judging the best candidate for a job. Interviewing candidates certainly is a tricky business. But I'm not sure if weeding out potentially great candidates through arbitrary requirements before they even reach the interview stage is such a good idea.

Casey_81

I have seen job advertisements looking for candidates with 350+ LC points and 2.1+ degree... needless to say I was a lazy student and got 340 LC points.. since then however I have a 1.1 BSc and a 2.1 MSc, etc and am working as a team lead in a software company.

When i interview developers I am more interested in their ability to code and the person as a whole rather than zooming in on their LC, but given the current climate perhaps such criteria are used to shortlist.. Unfortunately if this is true the company will possibly miss good candidates

Mr. Loverman

MysticalRain wrote: »

I'm not sure if weeding out potentially great candidates through arbitrary requirements before they even reach the interview stage is such a good idea.

Agreed, the best developer I know dropped out of college. (Although he dropped out of pure maths in TCD which is nothing to be ashamed of...)

discus

JustMary wrote: »

It's actually the same as saying "Irish only: foreigners need not apply".

I could, and did, get a 3rd level degree in my country. No one there had ever heard of "leaving certificate" though, except perhaps as something that people got back in the "olden days" when people finished their education at the end of primary school.

LOL! So as you say, the leaving cert is not an academic achievement in it's own right?

And it's not the same as saying "Irish only:..." because a lot of countries have their secondary education measured on the Tariff system for UCAS.

Mr. Loverman wrote:

My experience in college taught me the world is full of cheaters.

Tell me about it.

Cheaters.
Girls who cry over the results, throw tantrums and get upgrades.
People playing the race/religion card.
Mr/Mrs "Sicknote" for every compulsory lab session.

InchicoreDude

I can understand a company asking for a specific grade in a particular subject. Like, you must got a C in honours maths if you are going for a maths based job, you must have got an A in honours Irish if you are going for an Irish based job etc. While I would never ask for LC grades in a job advertisement when there is another stipulation of 3rd level qualifications, I can uderstand why some might want to know a persons LC grade for a specific subject.

However, it is unfair to have as a requirement something so general as "at least 450 points" in this Murex example. The jobs they advertise are very specific roles where your knowledge in Irish or English (And other subjects depending on what you did in LC) have little bearing.

discus

It's a possibility that they are not just looking at the candidates mathematical ability, but rather they are looking at the person as a whole.

If they were to take on someone who was great at maths their whole life, but distinctly poorer at everything else, there's a possibility that they'll get Rain Man.

wmpdd3

what about mature students that didn't do the leaving or formal final exam at all? if the subjects i did in collage were available for the leavin i would have gotten more than 450 points

kippy

Look,
as said above, dont let this kinda stuff put you off applying for the job. If you think you know your stuff, send in the CV but make sure you dont lie on it about grades etc.

Mrs OBumble

discus wrote: »

And it's not the same as saying "Irish only:..." because a lot of countries have their secondary education measured on the Tariff system for UCAS.

Mine didn't, and still doesn't. Actually, I've never heard of their of those terms.

Whenever applications ask about Leaving Cert, I can talk about:

• an A-bursary (totally meaningless to anyone here),
• having University Entrance accredited (which sounds like it's a backdoor route if you didn't get in the regular way - in fact the very opposite was true, the borderline people had to sit the exam, the ones who'd done well thru the year were exempt)
• six 1's and a 4 in Sixth-form-certificate (1's sounds low ...until you know that 1 was the top grade - but no one here knows that).

All of which screams "not Irish" to a potential employer.

It would be entertaining to apply for some job that asks for LC points, and take a discrimination case against then when I didn't get interviewed. Except that I can think of better things to use my time on!

Eoin

As I said, those requirements are probably put in by HR, and the hiring manager wouldn't give a crap. I've no degree, but have been successful in two jobs where they said one was required, and have been at least interviewed in others.

ABajaninCork

JustMary wrote: »

Mine didn't, and still doesn't. Actually, I've never heard of their of those terms.

Whenever applications ask about Leaving Cert, I can talk about:

• an A-bursary (totally meaningless to anyone here),
• having University Entrance accredited (which sounds like it's a backdoor route if you didn't get in the regular way - in fact the very opposite was true, the borderline people had to sit the exam, the ones who'd done well thru the year were exempt)
• six 1's and a 4 in Sixth-form-certificate (1's sounds low ...until you know that 1 was the top grade - but no one here knows that).

All of which screams "not Irish" to a potential employer.

It would be entertaining to apply for some job that asks for LC points, and take a discrimination case against then when I didn't get interviewed. Except that I can think of better things to use my time on!

Very true! Blimey, I'm English and have 'O' Levels and CSE's. They wouldn't give me a second look -LOL!!

Sid_Justice

Acapella wrote: »

I recieved 335 points

Acapella

That is quite ordinary from an academic perspective. 6 ~C2s. fair play getting a 2.1 in a honours degree, i'd also say this is quite mediocre academically unless it was a particularly hard degree like medicine, engineers or some science courses. A 1st class masters can also be either, a very mediocre achievement or a great one depending on its academic merits.

I've seen this murex job offer before and i think it's legitimate. it's very easy to get a degree these days and still be a complete thick.

kippy

JustMary wrote: »

Mine didn't, and still doesn't. Actually, I've never heard of their of those terms.

Whenever applications ask about Leaving Cert, I can talk about:

• an A-bursary (totally meaningless to anyone here),
• having University Entrance accredited (which sounds like it's a backdoor route if you didn't get in the regular way - in fact the very opposite was true, the borderline people had to sit the exam, the ones who'd done well thru the year were exempt)
• six 1's and a 4 in Sixth-form-certificate (1's sounds low ...until you know that 1 was the top grade - but no one here knows that).

All of which screams "not Irish" to a potential employer.

It would be entertaining to apply for some job that asks for LC points, and take a discrimination case against then when I didn't get interviewed. Except that I can think of better things to use my time on!

Hi Mary,
I dont think you could take a discrimination case based on that. Otherwise we'd have discrimination cases about almost every jobs spec that looks for a "minimum" level of something.

Even still, employers could just say "or equivilent"

Again, I'd make the point that people dont get too caught up on these minimum requirements.

Sid_Justice

JustMary wrote: »

Mine didn't, and still doesn't. Actually, I've never heard of their of those terms.

Whenever applications ask about Leaving Cert, I can talk about:

• an A-bursary (totally meaningless to anyone here),
• having University Entrance accredited (which sounds like it's a backdoor route if you didn't get in the regular way - in fact the very opposite was true, the borderline people had to sit the exam, the ones who'd done well thru the year were exempt)
• six 1's and a 4 in Sixth-form-certificate (1's sounds low ...until you know that 1 was the top grade - but no one here knows that).

All of which screams "not Irish" to a potential employer.

It would be entertaining to apply for some job that asks for LC points, and take a discrimination case against then when I didn't get interviewed. Except that I can think of better things to use my time on!

I'm completely certain Murex would be looking for the equivalent of 450 points in A-levels/Bac/what ever high school diploma you did. I don't think they're attempting to discriminate between irish and non irish educated applicants.

PeakOutput

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

Personally I think it is a much better indicator of someone's academic ability than a degree.

well thats just ridicolous

the leaving certificate, first of all, is a joke

i also happen to think that most college courses in this country are a joke aswell but it is far more difficult to stick at a course for 4 years and do enough to come out with a degree

i know in my own course i effectively do a leaving cert at the end of every semester

also asking someone who has a degree and potentially a masters and is now a fully matured adult(they would be at least 24 with both of those) what they did when they were 17 is just crazy

i got just under 400 points cause i was immature and uninterested. with a bit of luck i will have a first class honors batchelor of science degree by the end of may and i could probably get into a very good foreign university for a masters if i wanted to. the idea that i would then come back to ireland and apply for a job and be asked about some tests i took 8/9yrs ago at that stage is a total joke

if i was asked in an interview about my lc id answer honestly no problem but if there were any sort of comments like the other poster here said like 'are you sure' or 'thats very low' i wouldnt finish the interview

PrincessLola

Sid_Justice wrote: »

That is quite ordinary from an academic perspective. 6 ~C2s. fair play getting a 2.1 in a honours degree, i'd also say this is quite mediocre academically unless it was a particularly hard degree like medicine, engineers or some science courses. A 1st class masters can also be either, a very mediocre achievement or a great one depending on its academic merits.

I've seen this murex job offer before and i think it's legitimate. it's very easy to get a degree these days and still be a complete thick.

can you even read acapella's post with your head that far up your arse?
Sorry, its just that post came across as really mean-spirited and totally dismissive of someone's entire education.

Naikon

PeakOutput wrote: »

well thats just ridicolous

the leaving certificate, first of all, is a joke

i also happen to think that most college courses in this country are a joke aswell but it is far more difficult to stick at a course for 4 years and do enough to come out with a degree

i know in my own course i effectively do a leaving cert at the end of every semester

also asking someone who has a degree and potentially a masters and is now a fully matured adult(they would be at least 24 with both of those) what they did when they were 17 is just crazy

i got just under 400 points cause i was immature and uninterested. with a bit of luck i will have a first class honors batchelor of science degree by the end of may and i could probably get into a very good foreign university for a masters if i wanted to. the idea that i would then come back to ireland and apply for a job and be asked about some tests i took 8/9yrs ago at that stage is a total joke

if i was asked in an interview about my lc id answer honestly no problem but if there were any sort of comments like the other poster here said like 'are you sure' or 'thats very low' i wouldnt finish the interview

Now I get where you are coming from but I have to agree with that guy. Cheating is rampant across various courses in colleges around the country. This is known. A degree is nothing too special anymore College education is not mandatory.
I thought the LC was complete bull**** doing it, but it does test your ability 100% unlike a degree, where results can be inflated through cheating and the like. I say this despite getting < 400 points. I still think having a 450 point rule is stupid though....

pwd

For people saying that you can get a lot of points in your leaving cert without actually understanding the material: You can get a good degree without understanding the material too. In fact, I've been teaching undergrads for three years in university degree courses, and I would say that they generally actively resist trying to actually understand the material. They are usually only interested in knowing what they need to do to get good grades. Not only that, but the ones who do develop a good understanding dont usually do the best.

The most successful software engineer I know has a bad leaving cert and no college. The second most successful one I know has a good leaving cert and a mediocre degree.

Paper qualifications are just paper qualifications.