used veg. oil as a fuel

Rumplestilskin

Just been in my mind for a while - used veg. oil as a diesel substitute! is it legal? and can it be used on my 00 passat 1.9tdi ^_^

Technoprisoner

yes but you are suppose to notify revenue and pay tax on the vegitable oil lol

Rumplestilskin

seriously? Don't suppose you know how much and if it 's worth it?

And if it was already USED veg. oil, then surely the tax would have been paid on it when it was paid for the first time?

merc3ps

To use it in a 1.9Tdi you would have to install a kit or you will ruin it.
Used veggie oil needs to go through a filtration process.

The price of veggie oil rose in recent years so it is not as attractive an option.

andyseadog

cant see it being safe or legal to just pour it straight into your tank

merc3ps

It is safe, but not in that engine. I ran some cars on pure veggie oil for a while with no problems.

The legal way is to buy the veggie oil from an approvied supplier. eilisoils used to be one but I'm not sure what state that industry is in at the moment. They were bought by Glanbia.

Rumplestilskin

yea ok fair points. Thanks !!

bazz26

Your car will also smell like a greasy chipper...:p

Matt Simis

Technoprisoner wrote: »

yes but you are suppose to notify revenue and pay tax on the vegitable oil lol

Payable after you reach 1000l in theory and Im not aware of anyone that has done this. Revenue were contacted and couldnt advise either. But seriously, who cares? If you were dipped, they are only looking for a coloured diesel fuel. Mix the diesel with Veg Oil and it likely doesnt really even look that different than regular fuel. Definitely not green or red.

The UK addressed this "issue" by simply allowing home users to make/use 2500litre of fuel a year and most recently relaxed the legislation further by not even requiring receipts or notification anymore, its a totally open system.

The best fuel to Cut the Veg Oil with is Kerosene (28sec Home Heating Oil) as its naturally less viscous than Diesel and offers less lubrication, both addressed by Veg Oil (which is in its natural form too viscous for your era Diesel engine). Using home heating Kerosene as road fuel though is specifically illegal however, unlike running on pure Veg Oil which is legally more grey.

All that said, the legal aspect of all this is so so boring. The technical aspect is much more suited to a motoring forum....

I was looking into this for a long time and came across many interesting tidbits like:
- Common knowedge is that only very old diesels can use SVO (straight, new Veg Oil) however I found reports from TDI (PD Diesel) and JTD (Alfa/Fiat Common Rail) owners tried it with no issues till they got to 80% mixes (20% Diesel).
- Apparently properly filtered (no water and 1micro filtration) WVO (waste, used Oil) actually performs better than SVO
- Those that had issues generally solved them by just replacing the fuel filter and lowering the % mix
- Rapeseed/Canola oil is meant to be much easier to get good results on as its less viscous than the other Veg Oil types

So where can I get Veg Oil cheaply? Its 1.14 in Lidl per litre... thats not even close to cheap enough IMO.

Piri

I have tried in FIAT Jtd engine
Won't work at all
Even in summer the engine is not starting when cold
It is too viscous and not lubricating the expensive high pressure pump

slimjimmc

Rumplestilskin wrote: »

seriously? Don't suppose you know how much and if it 's worth it?

And if it was already USED veg. oil, then surely the tax would have been paid on it when it was paid for the first time?

But previous tax was paid on the basis it was to be used as a cooking oil, but you're using it as a fuel so that means you are liable for fuel excise. That's the theory anyway.

Row

I Have ran my 96 406 Td with 70% vegoil and 30% diesel during the summer
months and it loved it..:)
It actually did smell like a bbq...:D
I found it difficult to source used Veg oil and as Matt has said its expensive to purchase new veg oil....:(
The 406's has a diesel preheater which helps heat up the oil in the fuel filter.
Ideally you would want to start your engine on diesel and change over to veg oil but you would need to fit a two solenoids and a heater exchanger connected into the coolent circuit which would bring up the temp of the oil.

maybe something like this.... http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Straight-Used-Waste-Vegetable-Veg-Oil-Diesel-Heater-/250720640216?pt=UK_Home_Garden_Hearing_Cooling_Air&var=&hash=item800f9e8472

Matt Simis

Piri wrote: »

I have tried in FIAT Jtd engine
Won't work at all
Even in summer the engine is not starting when cold
It is too viscous and not lubricating the expensive high pressure pump

What engine, year and % mix?

EDIT: Mixed reports here on the JTD:
http://www.fiatforum.com/multipla/109344-will-diesel-multipla-run-vegetable-oil.html

Matt Simis

Some good news on the Veg Oil front, I found a cheaper retail source of Veg Oil - Spar of all places. "Rite Price Veg Oil" : 99c a litre !
Still only sold in 1litre bottles, so its not all that useful as a Fuel, but handy for small scale testing.

Their shops own brand is made from (Genetically modified) Soybean bean, which is one of the better oils to use as a fuel.

Some notes on Soybean Veg oil that may be of use to other home experimenters:
Iodine Value: 115-140 (German Veg Oil fuel standard dictates lower than 110, so this fails). High IV indicates a greater potential to polymerize under engine heat like temps. However this is not a given and IV can be lowered via blending.
Viscosity: 32mm2/s (Diesel is 2.7mm2/s, Sunflower Oil is 37mm2/s)
So better than Sunflower oil (and cheaper) however much thicker than diesel.
Actual proper BioDiesel is allowed upto 5.0mm2/s Viscosity.
Kerosene is around 1.6mm2/s (ie "thinner" than Diesel)
All figures at 40c.

Melting point: -16c, so fairly resilient in our temps.

Also found that recommended filter sizes for diesel is about 5micron for old diesel and 2micron for Common Rail diesels. So if I could get a 2 micron filter I could see straight up what blends do and dont flow through it and also an idea of flow rates.

Row

Well researched there Matt...:cool:
No where is my local Spar shop...
I wonder can i reverse my trailer to there door...:D

jimbobjones40

Matt Simis wrote: »

The best fuel to Cut the Veg Oil with is Kerosene (28sec Home Heating Oil) as its naturally less viscous than Diesel and offers less lubrication, both addressed by Veg Oil (which is in its natural form too viscous for your era Diesel engine). Using home heating Kerosene as road fuel though is specifically illegal however, unlike running on pure Veg Oil which is legally more grey.

I recently tried the kerosene mix with SVO (I get it for 20.95 for 20 litres) mixed with 20 litres of kerosene (have around 100 litres left over due to my central heating being converted to solid fuel) and in this case as it was an experiment and the night temperature were drop to freezing 10 litres of diesel just to be safe.

I think I would be happy to run it on 100% SVO if the weather stayed above 10 degrees with out any secondary pre-heater.

I read somewhere that there is around a 20 percent reduction in fuel economy ... for me I got 350 miles out of the fuel mix when I normally get around 500 miles with the same amount in pure diesel. Just something else to think about.

Senna

I've been think about this for ages and once the cold weather is gone, i'll be starting to experiment with my 1998 Freelander. Its got 180k miles on the clock, so if it goes tits-up i wont mind too much.

The 98 Freelander is a Di, which does not make it ideal, but it has a Bosch Fuel pump so that is a help. I wont be putting in pre-heater or twin tanks etc, it will be the standard freelander engine.

I've done some research, but much more is needed, My plan so far is;
The used oil will have to be heated first to remove any water, then cooled and filtered.
The oil will be filtered at 25 microns before heating just to remove large crap. Once cooled it will be allowed to drip filter through a 5 micron filter and then possibly a 1or2 filter.
Before i put any oil in, i'll change the fuel and oil filters, both will have to be checked regularly and i'll have to change the engine oil every 3k or so.
At first i'll run a tank or two at 20% WVO 80% Diesel. Then raise the levels to 50%/50% if no problems.
There are a number of additives that can be used and some even use 10% petrol to keep the viscosity of the oil. I'll probably have to mess around to get the right balance, but it looks promising. Many talk about 100% WVO, but i'll be starting at 20% and just hope for the best.

I can get as much used oil as i like from work and i dont do many miles per year, i'm really just doing it to see how easily it can be done.

GTE

If you are really keen on it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQmMVYMJwF0

Piri

Matt Simis wrote: »

What engine, year and % mix?

EDIT: Mixed reports here on the JTD:
http://www.fiatforum.com/multipla/109344-will-diesel-multipla-run-vegetable-oil.html

07 Grande Punto
80% veg 20% diesel Summer 22C

Rumplestilskin

That's good research, and it's appreciated.

mickdw

The chippers get oil in 25L drums I believe. No way are they paying anything like 99c/L either. Anyway, best option IMO is the small package plant which uses old oil from chippers. It filters, heats, mixes with correct additive to get the right lubrication & viscosity characteristics & works away by itself in the shed producing your fuel.
Car mechanics magazine did a good piece on this. I think the plants were maybe 2,000 euro or so. Oil costs would be tiny though if you were to pick up used oil. I think in uk it was working out around 30p/L ready for tank including additives etc

CJhaughey

You need to be careful what Lube oil you use when running veg oil, some lube oil reacts with veg oils and polymerizes. You end up with jelly instead of nice free flowing oil. This can have negative consequences for an engine.
I think they recommend either fully synthetic or vegetable based lube oils when running SVO and WVO.

Seweryn

Matt Simis wrote: »

The best fuel to Cut the Veg Oil with is Kerosene (28sec Home Heating Oil) as its naturally less viscous than Diesel and offers less lubrication, both addressed by Veg Oil (which is in its natural form too viscous for your era Diesel engine). Using home heating Kerosene as road fuel though is specifically illegal however, unlike running on pure Veg Oil which is legally more grey.

You get cheap SVO from your local farmer that produces it. I was driving my previous car on fuel I was buying from the farmer and I was mixing it with Diesel fuel or (with smaller proportions) with petrol or white spirit. My car could do on 70-80% SVO without any conversion, but I would do it only during warmer months. In the winter the proportions should be more towards less viscous fuels.

MarkoC

I think thats the whole case about taxing a fuel, ONLY taxed fuel should be used while driving on public roads.
I believe if the customs are really think you'll get for that and not bisquits ... Customs are NOT after blue diesel but after not taxed fuel !

Seweryn

MarkoC wrote: »

I think thats the whole case about taxing a fuel, ONLY taxed fuel should be used while driving on public roads...

That is one of the reasons I was buying SVO from a farmer.

MarkoC

Seweryn wrote: »

That is one of the reasons I was buying SVO from a farmer.

Is it excise taxed to use on public roads ?

Seweryn

MarkoC wrote: »

Is it taxed to use on public roads ?

Yes, it is.

MarkoC

Seweryn wrote: »

Yes, it is.

Can you explain please, how much you paid for it and who paid these taxes ? A farmer who didnt pay even VAT when sold you that stuff cheap ?
Also can you point me out where it says its legal to use it on the public roads.

Cheers

Seweryn

MarkoC wrote: »

Can you explain please, how much you paid for it and who paid these taxes ?

Cheers

I don't remember exactly how much it was at the time (2007-2008), but something around 80-90 cents per litre.
I paid the full price including taxes to the supplier, same way as you pay for your fuel in a filling station.

Seweryn

MarkoC wrote: »

Also can you point me out where it says its legal to use it on the public roads.

You get a receipt with the tax breakdown :rolleyes:.

MarkoC

Seweryn wrote: »

You get a receipt with the tax breakdown :rolleyes:.

By any chance you tell us more about that supplier ?

Cheers

Seweryn

MarkoC wrote: »

By any chance you tell us more about that supplier ?

Sure...
http://kilkennycereals.killure.ie/

MarkoC

Seweryn wrote: »

Sure...
http://kilkennycereals.killure.ie/

Thanks, didnt look much around the page but already noticed its a fuel for FARMS, not for public roads, so i presume the so calld "road tax" isnt paid in them and its illegal to use on public roads.

reverenddave

i was using used veg oil in my '00 hilux for about a year 60%oil 40%diesel

i was paying 69c per litre of 'new' oil in tesco but they hiked it up to about €1.39 so i started to use old oil

but any way i got it from a couple of local chippers for free all i done was filter out the oil with coffee filters and it ran great

on diesel alone i was religiously getting 300miles per tank of diesel
but after a couple of months of using oil/diesel mix
driving on the same roads to and from work i was getting more and more MPG
after about a 8-9 months i was getting just short of 400 miles between fills
i'd highly recommend anyone to do it

MarkoC

reverenddave wrote: »

i'd highly recommend anyone to do it

Only in oldschool diesel engines

Seweryn

MarkoC wrote: »

Thanks, didnt look much around the page but already noticed its a fuel for FARMS, not for public roads, so i presume the so calld "road tax" isnt paid in them and its illegal to use on public roads.

The "road tax" is paid and the fuel is legal to use on public roads.

reverenddave

MarkoC wrote: »

Only in oldschool diesel engines

why is that ????

MarkoC

Seweryn wrote: »

The "road tax" is paid and the fuel is legal to use on public roads.

Well seems you+re right here, at that time when fuel was cheaper:

In the Republic of Ireland a pilot scheme is currently running (as of April 2006) whereby eight suppliers have been approved to sell SVO/PPO for use as a fuel without the payment of excise duty (Value Added Tax at 21% still applies, SVO from any other source still attracts excise duty at 36.8058 Euro cents per litre plus 21% VAT).

So about 90 cents 3 years ago sounds right

Seweryn

reverenddave wrote: »

why is that ????

You can use the PPO in any engine, but the common rail and other later design engines will not be running on it (not for long anyway) without a proper conversion kit. High viscosity will kill the injectors, pump and other components. To lower the viscosity, PPO needs to be preheated.
The traditional, proper Diesel engine with inline injection pump (normally aspirated preferably) can be run on PPO without any major risk of damaging the engine as long as the fuel can be pumped through the fuel lines and spray inject into the engine.

reverenddave

.

Seweryn

MarkoC wrote: »

Well seems you+re right here, at that time when fuel was cheaper...

So about 90 cents 3 years ago sounds right

Yeah, it was not much cheaper than regular Diesel fuel though. I will try to get some of this stuff soon to see how much it is now.
The other reason I would prefer to use PPO instead of fossil fuels is the fact that I support local economy rather than foreign and the SVO keeps my tank and fuel lines very clean. Actually too clean sometimes, so it is advised to check the fuel filters very soon after you start using the PPO, as it will flush all the dirt accumulated in your tank through the years straight into your filters, which can get clogged and so the engine will shut off and you will have to change / clean the filters.

Seweryn

reverenddave wrote: »

would fitting a larger or even a second heating element do the trick ???????

It will do in most of the cases and that is how it is realised, however you should use two tank system (if you have a modern engine and running in on 100% PPO) and start (and stop) the engine on Diesel and turn over to PPO after the PPO riches higher temperature.

Matt Simis

Seweryn wrote: »

You can use the PPO in any engine, but the common rail and other later design engines will not be running on it (not for long anyway) without a proper conversion kit. High viscosity will kill the injectors, pump and other components. To lower the viscosity, PPO needs to be preheated.

Or blended or both. Im thinking Kero or apparently ethanol (great timing now that Maxol have given up on e85 arghh!) blended in high concentrations will get the Oil down to much lower viscosity levels. Im also planning on using an inline heater element before the filter. Total SVO level would prolly be 20-30% max however.

As I posted, Common Rail shouldnt run on SVO at all, but those that just "went for it" seem to experience much better results than theory says they should have.

Seweryn

Matt Simis wrote: »

As I posted, Common Rail shouldnt run on SVO at all, but those that just "went for it" seem to experience much better results than theory says they should have.

Exactly... The teory is one thing and life is another. I know a guy running a CDI engine in a van on pure PPO without a problem. PPO is preheated of course.
Some engines (like the one in my car) have factory designed and installed fuel heaters, which helps really .

MarkoC

Seweryn wrote: »

The other reason I would prefer to use PPO instead of fossil fuels is the fact that I support local economy rather than foreign.

If the whole world would go that route we were all phucked long time ago
Unfortunately it doesnt work that way ... But i see your point.

Seweryn

MarkoC wrote: »

If the whole world would go that route we were all phucked long time ago

Forget the whole world, but look at Ireland alone. This is very low population density country, but if we all in Ireland turn to PPO in our cars, we would need a fied size of 5-10 times bigger than Ireland just to grow the crops to produce the PPO :eek:. For the moment every little helps .

MarkoC

Seweryn wrote: »

Forget the whole world, but look at Ireland alone. This is very low population density country, but if we all in Ireland turn to PPO in our cars, we would need a fied size of 5-10 times bigger than Ireland just to grow the crops to produce the PPO :eek:. For the moment every little helps .

Yes and then you have no potato fields and bla bla

Try to think globally

dr.fuzzenstein

What you want to do is get yourself an ancient diesel and pour used chipfat into it:



http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2010/03/curbside-classic-1977-mercedes-240d-diesel-w123/

ArtSmart

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056085075

Eco fuels Ltd. in Fossa near killarney

i remember 75 c a litre, though that was some time ago. not sure now, dont know if they've a web, i'll check - i have heard they're Irish, produce from old waste veg oil. never used it meself (petrol car)

best i found is below, just a phone number really
http://www.homewise.ie/supplier/Kerry/EcoFuels/33189/

or this one in wexford

http://www.gbi.ie/

Builderfromhell

I run my 1997 Hilux Mk 3 on waste veg. oil after it's been filtered and water evaporated. I use a centrifugal pump as well as heaters to evaporate water. I also filter. Some of these processes are maybe unnecessary but it doesn't add much effort.

My wife wants to get rid of her Opel Corsa (thank God) and wants to get a sporty car. I'm obviously encouraging her to get a diesel car.
Anyone recommend a smallish car that will be happy with processed used veg. oil.

Seweryn

Builderfromhell wrote: »

Anyone recommend a smallish car that will be happy with processed used veg. oil.

This one would be (one of) the best: