mini rant , with a question

whelan1

ok ye may remember last year i let the lad i had working for me go as he drove tractor with no oil... i worked away myself over the summer and when the kids went back to school itook on a young local lad (20) who had been working with me after school over the years... now he has no college experience and is a great physical worker... he gets paid well - too well in my book- is never late etc... the last few weeks a few problems have arisen - high tbcs, asked him was tank clean , said it was , i spent 45 minutes the other morning scrubbing it:rolleyes: now here is the major problem ...i had bought pre calving minerals in the sping , and as the dry cows where put out i had 20 bags left to use this year , grand imo that would do me for 20 weeks , explained to the lad that a bag lasts a week .. so a few weeks before xmas he told me they where running low :eek: i couldnt understand... ordered them anyways and they where delivered yesterday... just got 12 bags enough until tournout -hopefully- so today as it is his weekend off i went to give them their minerals to discover there was a full bag gone of the new minerals:eek: now this is my question and my worry would over dosing on pre calving minerals have a bad effect on the cow and calf ( as well as my pocket)

whelan1

THANKS :rolleyes:

dar31

roughly how much over the standard rate a pay did they get, and was it just a standard dry cow mix or was it a more top of the range one.
imagine up to twice the rate they would be grand, over that id be guessing

Bizzum

Some time ago I left in my haste a recently opened bag of pre-calver mineral too near the feeding barrier and a cow or cows, I dunno how many had a pop, just about finished it off with no apparant ill effects.
The same cows I might add that turn their noses up at mineral other times when it suits them!

whelan1

ok a bag should do a week , they had been getting a bag a day :rolleyes: so 7 times what they should be getting

gerico

are you not concerned about the other issues with this worker??.

whelan1

gerico wrote: »

are you not concerned about the other issues with this worker??.

that is not my main issue at this time , i have advertised many times for a competent worker - believe me i am not hard to work for , i do MOST OF the work - i just need some one reliable for when my oh is away - i had 50 replies to my last ad ... alot of the people have degrees coming out their eye balls but can not milk a cow .. paper doesn't refuse ink... cv's imo are a figment of peoples imagination

C0N0R

If I was at home whelan and maybe lived closer to you I'd be sending you a cv! Had to go to nz to get decent work on a dairy farm! You seem to be very unlucky when it comes to finding good people to work for you, they are out there though, we have one on our home farm, they just don't become available very often. Our guy has been with us 25 years! There is no chance that the guy is selling some of the mineral on the side is there? Because I don't see how someone could be giving that much a day??

whelan1

i very much doubt it.... i cant really look for some one else as we are going away for 5 days soon- that hails another question , will everything be ok while i am gone ? luckily my dad is close at hand-

Esel

He told you supplies were running low, so you ordered more... "i couldnt understand... :eek:" Why didn't you question the situation at that point (it was seven times the normal rate, after all)? Also, how come you didn't notice it many weeks earlier? Sounds like it's also hard to get good bosses as well as good workers....

Anyway, he did tell you supplies were running low.

About the worker you let go - might you not have checked the oil level yourself?

JupiterKid

It is the year 2011. Could you not simply purchase a couple of robots to do the farm labouring jobs you need done?:D

whelan1

esel wrote: »

He told you supplies were running low, so you ordered more... "i couldnt understand... :eek:" Why didn't you question the situation at that point (it was seven times the normal rate, after all)? Also, how come you didn't notice it many weeks earlier? Sounds like it's also hard to get good bosses as well as good workers....

Anyway, he did tell you supplies were running low.

About the worker you let go - might you not have checked the oil level yourself?

so what am i paying him for? i did ask him at that point , was he sure they where running low , this came after he came to me about something else that was finished , i had said things just don't appear , they have to be ordered and i would like a bit of notice if something is needed... i think i am a fair boss , i pay well and do my fair share of the work too

whelan1

JupiterKid wrote: »

It is the year 2011. Could you not simply purchase a couple of robots to do the farm labouring jobs you need done?:D

at least a robot would do what you ask of them;) in this time of high unemployment i think its crazy that people dont value their jobs ... when i worked for other farmers if i was asked to do something i did it , i didnt go back and say it was done when it wasnt

foundation10

The excess mineral intake shouldn't do any harm to the animals.

One thing on your labourer from reading your post I think you are assuming that he will do everything the same way as you would you need to check the work he does more often, this obivously hasn't being happening. You need to take control, a simple rule in management I have is to let your subordinates know that the work done will be checked and supervised, this in itself acts as a motivator to get the job done correctly and the results are amazing after pulling peolpe on mistakes a few times they tend to be more careful in future. Becoming a manager of employees is a steep learning curve it just takes time

whelan1

foundation10 wrote: »

The excess mineral intake shouldn't do any harm to the animals.

One thing on your labourer from reading your post I think you are assuming that he will do everything the same way as you would you need to check the work he does more often, this obivously hasn't being happening. You need to take control, a simple rule in management I have is to let your subordinates know that the work done will be checked and supervised, this in itself acts as a motivator to get the job done correctly and the results are amazing after pulling peolpe on mistakes a few times they tend to be more careful in future. Becoming a manager of employees is a steep learning curve it just takes time

I am up at 6 every morning and i have shown him everything alot of times , i ahve to go around after him and check things are done as well as do my work , i have more or less held his hand , my da always says even though you have explained something loads of times doesnt mean that the person understands , a simple example is he was putting wheaten straw in the keenan feeder rather than barley, i showed hin the silage with the wheaten straw in it , he said he didnt put it in it , he does the feeding i do all the cubicle , calves , scrapers etc...we have big squares of barley straw for the feeder and rounds of wheaten for bedding

dar31

foundation10 wrote: »

The excess mineral intake shouldn't do any harm to the animals.

One thing on your laborer from reading your post I think you are assuming that he will do everything the same way as you would you need to check the work he does more often, this obivously hasn't being happening. You need to take control, a simple rule in management I have is to let your subordinates know that the work done will be checked and supervised, this in itself acts as a motivator to get the job done correctly and the results are amazing after pulling peolpe on mistakes a few times they tend to be more careful in future. Becoming a manager of employees is a steep learning curve it just takes time

id have to agree here, managing the farm and managing people are two seperate issues. most of the time is spent correcting their mistakes, picking up after them, and explaining things to them. just because some one has one or two peolpe working for them dose not mean the amount of work done will increase by that amount.

first thing first, make every job "IDIOT PROOF" and remember sometimes the boss can get it wrong too.

for the case in point, in the shed with the minerals put up a board and pencil (the white boards used in the cheap furniture) on it write the amount of minerals/head/day by the amount of cows=xkg/day
every day get him to write down the day and how many cows if the no. changes and how much mineral he gave them.
have a bucket there that is only for minerals and know how much it holds full(usually a small one for minerals) write it on the bucket in pernament marker how much it holds full or weigh in 2kg at a time and mark it each time.

we have white boards in most of the tractors/sheds (in the machinery shed of services done/oil checked). it has been the vain of my father life to get every one using them, but as staff change or the more there is the more valuable these craps of timber become.
the week gone by my full time lad was out for the week sick, he looked after the feeding on the out farm, i knew what they were fed but not the exact quantities. but a 30sec look at the board told me how many grabs of silage to each pen/shed, if they are big/small grabs, hows many bales of straw,how much meal and how much minerals. idiot proof and i was the idiot this time.

whelan1

i will be the first to admit i am not always right , my brother says that i dont make mistakes often but when i do i do a whopper... i just want everything to run smoothly and be done right .... i think i will invest in the white boards, i will give out the minerals in future , along with a good few other jobs at least i know thay are done right

Muckit

whelan1 wrote: »

he was putting wheaten straw in the keenan feeder rather than barley

Hi Whelan1

I know it's off the point, but maybe you can educate me. I know little about the different straw types. Last winter I knew we were low on fodder so bought in Wheaten straw to supplement pit silage purely because i heard it was better feed than barley..... did i make a mistake? Fed to mix of suckler drystock including suckler cows..

Do you use your wheaten straw just for bedding?

Edit: p.s. I wasn't feeding it through a wagon, just on top of silage

whelan1

we always fed barley straw in the feeder and usde the wheaten for bedding different folks different strokes.....

dar31

Muckit wrote: »

Hi Whelan1

I know it's off the point, but maybe you can educate me. I know little about the different straw types. Last winter I knew we were low on fodder so bought in Wheaten straw to supplement pit silage purely because i heard it was better feed than barley..... did i make a mistake? Fed to mix of suckler drystock including suckler cows..

Do you use your wheaten straw just for bedding?

Edit: p.s. I wasn't feeding it through a wagon, just on top of silage

we feed wheaten straw and use barley for bedding. wheaten has a better scratch factor, and the barley makes a better bed, or thats the way i always understood it.

Muckit

dar31 wrote: »

wheaten has a better scratch factor

hi Dar31, what do you mean by scratch factor?

deerejohn

Hi Whelan1, i feel your pain!! Everyday i am dealing with staff and students and while some are not a problem, some are more challenging... Just because someone is helping you dosent mean that you yourself have to check and recheck things. As a previous poster said i feel it is extremely important to do thing ultra right yourself and then staff expect that standard will be demanded of them(if they are interested in keeping a job)! We try to only use wheaten straw for feeding and barley straw for bedding, good quality wheaten straw is better for rumen function as you can feed more and still mix it properly in the the feeder, we find once you pass 1 kg of barley straw in the feeder, in order to process that straw properly the mix will be over cooked. Our milkers are currently on 1.25 kgs wheaten straw and once the feeder is full it is ready to unload.

deerejohn

Muckit wrote: »

hi Dar31, what do you mean by scratch factor?

better "scratching" of the rumen wall by the wheaten straw will lead to more saliva being produced and this in turn will increase the levels of bicarb that the animal will produce naturally. The buffering effect of this bicarb helps to mantain the optimum ph balance in the rumen therefore enabling the animal to process feed more efficently

Shauny2010

Would you do the same ranting Whelan if the shoe was on the other foot:D

whelan1

Shauny2010 wrote: »

Would you do the same ranting Whelan if the shoe was on the other foot:D

i think i would value my job more ... giving out to your boss in my book is not the way to go

Shauny2010

I wouldn't agree with him giving out to you if thats whats happening, all I`m saying that to look at it from his point of view
Sounds like he could do with been given a bit of responsibility on the job, let him do some part under his own initiative. Might be better than trying to control someone like a Robot thats all.

dar31

deerejohn wrote: »

better "scratching" of the rumen wall by the wheaten straw will lead to more saliva being produced and this in turn will increase the levels of bicarb that the animal will produce naturally. The buffering effect of this bicarb helps to mantain the optimum ph balance in the rumen therefore enabling the animal to process feed more efficently

that was nearly word for word what i was going to say, amazing...:D:D:D:D
welcome to boards deerejohn

whelan1

Shauny2010 wrote: »

I wouldn't agree with him giving out to you if thats whats happening, all I`m saying that to look at it from his point of view
Sounds like he could do with been given a bit of responsibility on the job, let him do some part under his own initiative. Might be better than trying to control someone like a Robot thats all.

i have shown him the ropes - also the fact he used to work here before means he knows alot of our system , he never asks me if he doesnt know something.... i have always tried to look at it from his point of view , i know what it feels like to be an employee as well as the employer ... i suppose i am just frustrated that he doesnt come to me to ask me if he doesnt understand something

Shauny2010

Sounds like he`s lost interest, maybe it would be better to have a clear the air talk with him to see if he can pick his act up, If not then maybe its time to part ways!

whelan1

i had that talk with him on friday , before i copped the minerals , he knows i cant be checking up on everything all the time... on the milk quality issue ... i am trying to set up a bonus type system to keep the quality right ... he wasn't interested in that:rolleyes:

Bigbird1

whelan1 wrote: »

i will be the first to admit i am not always right , my brother says that i dont make mistakes often but when i do i do a whopper... i just want everything to run smoothly and be done right .... i think i will invest in the white boards, i will give out the minerals in future , along with a good few other jobs at least i know thay are done right

Sure da lad workin for you must be a pure fool if he cant carry out a simple task like give the correct amount of minerals to the cows,"A BAG PER WEEK" surely once is enough to be told that. Also carrying out other jobs like cleaning whatever he should be shown the standard to which you require it to be cleaned and should be able to match that in future

whelan1

had a chat with him this morning... i asked about the minerals , he said the bag says 100g/head / day so they get the full bag a day for 25 cows i explained that there are indeed 1000g/kg and 20kg in a bag , he seemed shocked... i also made a comparision as his gf is pregnant , that if she was getting 7 times the rec dose of minerals , i am sure he would be worried ...

Tipp Man

Whelan I have a question, is this guy a farm labourer or a farm manager? IMO there is a significant difference. If he is a labourer then I don't really think the quality of your milk is his responsibility (bar the obvious regarding milking procedure and general cleanleness etc). If he is a manager then it most certainly is his responsibility

If he is a labourer then he is there to supplement your work, often doing the donkey work or the stuff you don't really want to do. The level of responsibilty for a manager is obviously much greater and he should be running the place. And the major difference is that you can (and probably should) leave the manager off to do it by himself whereas the labourer will really need significant guidance for a lot of the time

From what i read of the situation it sounds like you have a labourer but are expecting a managers level of performance. for instance the minerals. He obviously made a mistake with the calculations, and that can happen to anybody, however it is up to you as a boss to spot this and to spot it early. In his defence when he came to you when minerals were running low then you should really have checked then if you were suspicious as to the amounts being given.

As mentioned earlier management of staff and management of a farm are 2 completly different and unrelated skill sets. Quite often the best managers (in any business) don't actually know the most about the business but they are able to get the best from the people that do

This is how i would approach it if in your situation

1) Sit down and write out the entire list of what you think his responsibilites are and the tasks he needs to do. Absolutely everything, in writing. Have a meeting with him and go through every item with him in detail, and discuss it with him, is he happy doing it, does he understand exactly what needs to be done etc etc. Give a copy of this to him

2) Have regular meetings with him to asses how things are going, say have 1 first thing monday morning and set out what needs to be done for the week in writing, and have a copy for him. Then at the end of everyday have a quick 5-10 minutes chat to see what has been done for the day, how that compares to what was planned on monday and how the original plan needs to be adapted for the remainder of the week

3) Praise him when he does well. From my experience of managing people the vast majority, who care in the slightest, will respond to praise and encouragement. It doesn't need to be gushing and OTT but just a little line here and there can make a massive difference to his moral

4) You seem like a bit of a perfectionist (and i don't mean that in a bad way or as it being a bad thing) but you can't expect an employee to have the same level of dedication or to strive to reach the same level of perfection as yourself. There are some employees who will but the majority won't, you need to have realistic expectations of what your employee can and should achieve and be sure that he knows what these expectations are

5) Maybe instead of having individual tasks you can both do tasks together - certainly for a while. So using your example above, instead of him feeding and you doing cubicles, you are both involved in feeding and then both do the cubicles together. This way you can monitor what he is doing and teach him on the job, you will see that he is giving way too much minerals or wheaten straw instead of barley and can nip the problem in the bud. Teaching while doing gives 10 times more benifits than telling him what to do and letting him off to his own devices

6) You need to build a relationship with him so that he is comfortable asking you questions and seeking your advice. This can be difficult as you don't want to be best friends (for when he needs a good lecture) but you don't want to be too distant either. And communication needs to be 2 way, a great way to have 2 way communication is to ask him questions and ask him what he would do in this situation. And even sometimes follow his suggestion over your own even if you know it is wrong (as long as it doesn't cost money!!) This will make him feel like he has an important part to play in the operation and that you are listening to him. It will do wonders for his moral. IMO one of the most difficult parts of being a good manager is building the appropriate relationship with the employees

7) You need to build a system for yourself whereby you can check regularly his work and items such as mineral usage and tank cleanliness etc, don't just ask him is it ok and take his word for it, it needs to be checked properly and regularly. Unfortunately nowadays you can't just leave employees off to their own devices and expect everything to be A1. Checking their work becomes your new job

Anyway these are just my observations from the little bit that i have read on here and from my own dealing with staff in the past. Please don't see it as a lecture or anything like that - we all have different ways of dealing with things and maybe you are already doing everything that i have said above. Maybe you/others will think its a load of rubbish - like i said just my thoughts

Muckit

^ ^ Some excellent advice Tippman, not just in a farming context, but for anyone dealing/managing people in general

I don't know your personal situation, but if you are farming fulltime can I commend you on your level of insite in this whole complex area of people management.

There are business 'Managers' out there with MBA's coming out their backsides that wouldnt' be as clued in.

Thanks for posting

Bizzum

Tipp Man, I like the swing of your jib!
Managing people is an art when done right.
Give me cattle any day of the week.

irishh_bob

whelan1 wrote: »

we always fed barley straw in the feeder and usde the wheaten for bedding different folks different strokes.....

wheaten straw is no use for bedding and as for feeding barley straw , its more severe on cattles stomach , its also more expensive than wheaten

whelan1

we have done it this way with the STRAW for years ... thanks tipp man alot of good points there to take on boards, i am obviously expecting too much of this lad... the main reason i have him here is to reduce MY workload but it has actually increased as i have to recheck everything...another question , what is the going wage fora labourer as opposed to a farm manager

Tipp Man

Have to say I'm with Whelan on the straw, feed barley - bed wheat. Would bed with Barley except its more expensive so why have even more expensive s##t??

irishh_bob

Tipp Man wrote: »

Have to say I'm with Whelan on the straw, feed barley - bed wheat. Would bed with Barley except its more expensive so why have even more expensive s##t??

must be regional variations when it comes to bedding practice

round theese parts if you told somene you were buying wheaten straw for bedding , you would get a look of amazement

wheaten straw IMO doesnt have the same soakage as barley straw , its also harder to scatter

Tipp Man

whelan1 wrote: »

we have done it this way with the STRAW for years ... thanks tipp man alot of good points there to take on boards, i am obviously expecting too much of this lad... the main reason i have him here is to reduce MY workload but it has actually increased as i have to recheck everything...another question , what is the going wage fora labourer as opposed to a farm manager

Well I don't know if you are expecting too much of him or not - but what you should do is have realistic expectations of what he can achieve based on his experience and/or qualifications. And importantly let him know what expecations you have of him and ask him does he think he can achieve that. In situations like this it is best for all concerned to be open and frank and realistic. In my opinion - and i know no more than the next man (or woman;)) communication is of vital importance. It is not necessarily something that comes natural to farmers in a working environment as it has been a while since farmers in general have used outside help - its easy to give the son/daughter a right good bolloc#ing - much harder to deal with the employee (if you want to keep him that is)

One thing about the workload for you is it might not necessarily decrease a lot but what you are doing should change - so less time shoveling s##t but more time checking, preparing and organising. It can take a little time to adapt - some people never do. But where great businessmen come into their own is when they make a rapid change from being a s##t shoveller to the organiser allowing the business to expand in a coordinated and planned fashion

Interestingly (or at least i think it is:D) many small businesses say exactly the same as you do whelan, they hired somebody and now find they are doing more work. Companies with 1 or 2 employees often find it very hard to get the most from them and how best to manage them. Quite often an owner will think if i can sell 10 widgets when i'm a 1 man show then if i hire somebody i will sell 20 - in reality they will be doing well to sell 15-16. Increasing employees doesn't always increase productivity and certainly not exponentially.

whelan1

irishh_bob wrote: »

must be regional variations when it comes to bedding practice

round theese parts if you told somene you were buying wheaten straw for bedding , you would get a look of amazement

wheaten straw IMO doesnt have the same soakage as barley straw , its also harder to scatter

irish bob afair you are not too far away from me

whelan1

Tipp Man wrote: »

Well I don't know if you are expecting too much of him or not - but what you should do is have realistic expectations of what he can achieve based on his experience and/or qualifications. And importantly let him know what expecations you have of him and ask him does he think he can achieve that. In situations like this it is best for all concerned to be open and frank and realistic. In my opinion - and i know no more than the next man (or woman;)) communication is of vital importance. It is not necessarily something that comes natural to farmers in a working environment as it has been a while since farmers in general have used outside help - its easy to give the son/daughter a right good bolloc#ing - much harder to deal with the employee (if you want to keep him that is)

One thing about the workload for you is it might not necessarily decrease a lot but what you are doing should change - so less time shoveling s##t but more time checking, preparing and organising. It can take a little time to adapt - some people never do. But where great businessmen come into their own is when they make a rapid change from being a s##t shoveller to the organiser allowing the business to expand in a coordinated and planned fashion

Interestingly (or at least i think it is:D) many small businesses say exactly the same as you do whelan, they hired somebody and now find they are doing more work. Companies with 1 or 2 employees often find it very hard to get the most from them and how best to manage them. Quite often an owner will think if i can sell 10 widgets when i'm a 1 man show then if i hire somebody i will sell 20 - in reality they will be doing well to sell 15-16. Increasing employees doesn't always increase productivity and certainly not exponentially.

yes i tend to build things up inside and it ends up with an explosion:D

Tipp Man

whelan1 wrote: »

yes i tend to build things up inside and it ends up with an explosion:D

Had years of that from my auld man - i think it is engrained in nearly every farmer in this country:D

sea12

Great Post above Tipp Man.
A very well constructed piece of info. I Thing your spot on with your suggestions on how to improve the situation for Whelan 1.

candor

Hi Whealan,

I hope it goes well for you, good learning experience for all involved hopefully.

I'm 21 and new to farming in a sense but always try to learn and ask questions. I know perhaps that a lot of questions can get annoying, but worth asking to make sure everyone is on the same hymnsheet. I also try to read up in my spare time if I'm not sure how to do something or learn how to do it better.

gerico

whelan1 wrote: »

yes i tend to build things up inside and it ends up with an explosion:D

but the making up is the best bit !!

whelan1

ok , i have answered my own question , over feeding minerals affects the cows liver .... had vet out today , 1 cow went down yesterday evening , she is 10 days calved , i was going to give her calcium - vet said it was a good job i didnt as that would have increased the toxicity in her system:mad: have to leave them off minerals for another week, calves that have been born have a glary look about them

snowman707

whelan1 wrote: »

ok , i have answered my own question , over feeding minerals affects the cows liver .... had vet out today , 1 cow went down yesterday evening , she is 10 days calved , i was going to give her calcium - vet said it was a good job i didnt as that would have increased the toxicity in her system:mad: have to leave them off minerals for another week, calves that have been born have a glary look about them

what treatment did the vet give?

we used to use precalving buckets but found some cows were always at the lick and others didn;t get a look in , using boluses now , at least we know each cow is getting the same amount.

whelan1

chanatol to the cows and voren .... the calves are on alamycin and no minerals to any of them for the time being

agcons

Tipp Man is absolutely spot on in his posts. sounds like your man is under trained, under payed and under appreciated. Good communications are vital, he needs to know exactly what is required of him, when he is meeting expectations and when he is not. Give him his chores, train him, supervise as necessary(hopefully less and less over time) and let him at them. No point in having a dog and barking yourself, also you taking back jobs(such as the minerals) from him is an indictment of your management and will undermine his confidence. Mistakes happen no matter what anyone does so best to accept that, learn the lessons and move on. Labouring and management are states of mind and you cant be both.

whelan1

well lads , he left today, had been going grand , was talking him through everything and thought it was going fine , then went to check cows last night , i had to bring ds to football so left him to finish up last night, cows where bawling , he never fed them , now i made light of it this morning , i said we all forget things - even though this was a massive one as he does the feeding- anyway got a text at breakfast time to say he wasnt coming back as he couldn't do things the way i wanted them, I think he was embarrassed that he had forgotten to feed the cows .... so back to square 1