Having a Centralized government outside Dublin.

Seloth

I've just been thinking of this idea for a while, and obviously it couldn't come into play in the near future but what would peoples thoughts be on this and what would be the cons /pros.

The establishment of a special Administrative zone somewhere central perhaps in the Ireland where the Main government activity's would take place.The relocation of the Dáil,the various departments(perhaps keeping smaller offices around the country for each as well) etc to this location.

I know that the original decentralization took place in order too "spread the wealth" and create employment in various areas but I'm sure the establishment of a pretty much new "city" would do so even more create a new larger employment area out side Dublin,creating a new economic zone and a further distribution of the population outside the capital(seeing as there is such high employment within the civil service).

On a lighter note as well this would give a chance to create a visually impressive location,especially so much so for foreign views and such.

While costs may seem quite high the commercial and residential areas could be privately built.

Again just a thought I've been pondering so dont be harsh hah.

craggles

There are reasons why a large city never formed in the midlands.

Seloth

Then discuss how that would affect this.

Edit-Also the Chinese plans for their development for an economic base in Ireland are aimed for somewhere around Athlon.

Wolfe Tone

Its been argued that the Dail should be in Athlone because of its centralized location.

cyclopath2001

Seloth wrote: »

The relocation of the Dáil,the various departments(perhaps keeping smaller offices around the country for each as well) etc to this location..... create employment in various areas but I'm sure the establishment of a pretty much new "city" would do so even more create a new larger employment area out side Dublin,creating a new economic zone and a further distribution of the population outside the capital(seeing as there is such high employment within the civil service).

You're not creating jobs, you're just moving them. Unless you force people to leave Dublin, you're going to have to deal with all of the reasons why decentralisation failed, so you should address them in your proposal.

And, how do you sell this to people in Dublin whose jobs are spin-offs of government jobs in Dublin?

Dublin is central. It's a transport hub, has a major international hub and shipping links to the UK and mainland Europe. It has museums, parks, universities, schools all of the things that you'd have to move elsewhere to support your new capital.

Seloth

Dublin can remain a Commercial and cultural centre/capital of the Country.

No university or Museums would have too move and I question why they would have too as you seem to think they should.Sure new Educational institutions could be created,perhaps one similar to École nationale d'administration (A prestiges French civil service college).

One failing of the the past/current attempt of relocation was not to force this,instead they created two jobs for the one!.

Many of the spin of jobs can still be support by the commercial and private sector.Any others that directly need the government can still be used through the e-government and new public management systems.

As for transport,well this would give a great opportunity too expand this even more so.

Edit-New jobs would be created through the development of the area as well as the new Businesses likely to spring up from this new area.

Godge

Where do I start?

(1) How many civil servants are going to move from their homes, families, schools, friends, spouse's job, local pub etc. in Dublin to live in some bog in the midlands? Will they be grant-aided to buy a new house? Will you force them to move like cattle being sold?
(2) Which airport will those civil servants and politicians travel to Brussels and elsewhere from? Which airport will the IMF fly into? Will we build a metro from Dublin Airport to Ferbane or will be construct Ferbane International Airport?
(3) How will those civil servants who use public transport to get to work be able to do so in future? Ferbane Area Rapid Transit? FART to replace DART? Or massively increased carbon emissions from the second-hand old cars they will only be able to afford to buy?
(4) How much will this cost and how much will income tax rise to pay for it?
(5) Ferbane is definitely visually impressive (apologies to Ferbane residents but have they knocked down that ugly power station yet?)
(6) Where will they all live?
(7) Golden Island Shopping Centre in Athlone will be crowded as there is nowhere else to shop? Maybe Rathdowney Outlet Centre?
(8) Which developer has the money or ability to borrow in order to build the commercial or residential element? And what about the empty houses left in Dublin - will Dublin be the new Leitrim or Longford?


There was a time for this idea - somewhere between 1930 and 1950 - when a genuine alternative to Dublin could have been created in Cork or Limerick. That time is well gone.

Seloth

Godge wrote: »

(1) How many civil servants are going to move from their homes, families, schools, friends, spouse's job, local pub etc. in Dublin to live in some bog in the midlands? Will they be grant-aided to buy a new house? Will you force them to move like cattle being sold?

This problem would be one if not the greatest.While it is horrible to do so the government is moving to a more private sector model with the new public management model.In the private sector people are given very little choice over such matters.With the decentralization plan as I've made mention of before as there were such protests over moment they began to hire new people essentially having two people for the one job.While some smaller offices may be held outside the new area the majority would be located there.

Godge wrote: »

(2) Which airport will those civil servants and politicians travel to Brussels and elsewhere from? Which airport will the IMF fly into? Will we build a metro from Dublin Airport to Ferbane or will be construct Ferbane International Airport?

I dont see the problem with a train service,similar to the Cork to Dublin line being established and used.

Godge wrote: »

(3) How will those civil servants who use public transport to get to work be able to do so in future? Ferbane Area Rapid Transit? FART to replace DART? Or massively increased carbon emissions from the second-hand old cars they will only be able to afford to buy?

Well essentially the same as it is done now no?And so seeing as this is a new area I'm sure a new commuter system would be established.For those , hopefully now the majority living in the area they could use the local commuter services and for those going from longer distances again like many with the Dublin situation then a new train/bus service can be established.

Godge wrote: »

(4) How much will this cost and how much will income tax rise to pay for it?

Besides relocation this would be the cost.But It was planned with the decentralization(cancelled with recession) so the same aspects could be applied but too one area.As mentioned in the OP,Many things such as the residential and commercial areas could be covered privately.

Godge wrote: »

(6) Where will they all live?

Above.

Godge wrote: »

(7) Golden Island Shopping Centre in Athlone will be crowded as there is nowhere else to shop? Maybe Rathdowney Outlet Centre?

Above,and just too add new commercial areas are built all the time(Even during the recession)

Godge wrote: »

(8) Which developer has the money or ability to borrow in order to build the commercial or residential element? And what about the empty houses left in Dublin - will Dublin be the new Leitrim or Longford?

It would not be one,but several.And again no as Dublin would still be the center of commercial activity.And While we do have a large public sector they are not all employed within Dublin,let alone the departments!.

Godge wrote: »

There was a time for this idea - somewhere between 1930 and 1950 - when a genuine alternative to Dublin could have been created in Cork or Limerick. That time is well gone.

Yes this is very true.But once thing which I both fear and am annoyed at with the current world is such things hold back.Where once there was a time grand statues would be built it is now a time (be it recession or now)people wish to remove funding form culture.Time should not hold us back.

One example is Brasillia,which was founded in the 1960's!

Again this is only a idea/suggestion so too all don't try and take it personally or to heart,its merely to discuss it.

Sand

OP, seeing as you asked people not to be harsh I'll limit myself to saying the merits are imaginary/dubious and the bottom line is we dont have the money. Its was a bad idea in 2003. Its satire at this stage.

Cookie_Monster

Seloth wrote: »

Many things such as the residential and commercial areas could be covered privately.

why would any private company take the risk of building on that scale in the middle of nowhere where no-one would want to live or work?

Where would those companies get the money to build such areas, no bank or investor in the world would back that.

Einhard

Why would you bother? The location of the government hasn't caused our current problems; incompetent governance has gotten us into this mess, and moving the administrative centre won't have any impact on that. I fail to see any positive tbh.

cyclopath2001

Sand wrote: »

we dont have the money.

I think his idea is that the project will be self-financed simply by compelling people to leave Dublin.

Iwasfrozen

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

I think his idea is that the project will be self-financed simply by compelling people to leave Dublin.

Shouldn't be too hard. Dublin's a kip. :P

Ren2k7

I agree with this in principle as it would help develop other areas of the country outside Dublin but until there's more concrete and thought out proposals (and of course when the country is no longer in the sh!t) to implement this idea then it'll go no where.

Edit: Also there's a precedence for this. Wasn't Shannon just fields before it was turned into a success story as a new town built from scratch?

BOHtox

What would you do with the current Dail building op?

BOHtox

Maybe i'm just cynical but wasn't it the IRA who proposed this idea first?
Then the issue a statement saying they'll incease terrorism next year.
Maybe OP is...........................

nah couldn't be.............. or could it?

cyclopath2001

Ren2k7 wrote: »

I agree with this in principle as it would help develop other areas of the country outside Dublin

At whose expense? Who pays? Who loses?

Iwasfrozen

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

At whose expense? Who pays? Who loses?

No one will lose. Dublin doesn't gain anything from having the Dáil situated there.

cyclopath2001

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

No one will lose. Dublin doesn't gain anything from having the Dáil situated there.

The proposal is to move more than the Dail.

Iwasfrozen

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

The proposal is to move more than the Dail.

It is to move the Dáil, the Senate and the various departments. But I still don't see how this negatively affects Dublin.

cyclopath2001

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

It is to move the Dáil, the Senate and the various departments. But I still don't see how this negatively affects Dublin.

By moving thousands of jobs out of Dublin?

The proposal is to centralise all government. Wouldn't that mean taking all civil service jobs out of all the other cities and towns too?

goose2005

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Its been argued that the Dail should be in Athlone because of its centralized location.

By whom? Dublin is central enough for a country as small as Ireland.

Ren2k7

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

At whose expense? Who pays? Who loses?

The Irish nation would pay for it obviously. I swear, you'd think Dublin was the entire nation and the other 25 counties were unpopulated islands of the coast from some of the posts here.

This CAN be done with some political will. Brazil, India, the United States, are some good examples.

cyclopath2001

Ren2k7 wrote: »

The Irish nation would pay for it obviously.

What with?

ilovesleep

Lets move the Dail to Moyross, Co.Limerick. Our government will behave then.

For Forks Sake

Godge wrote: »

(2) Which airport will those civil servants and politicians travel to Brussels and elsewhere from? Which airport will the IMF fly into? Will we build a metro from Dublin Airport to Ferbane or will be construct Ferbane International Airport?
.

Someone's already on the case http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0817/1224276972609.html

The Irish Times - Tuesday, August 17, 2010
Offaly airport plan clears first hurdle

CONOR SULLIVAN

A PLAN to build an international airport in Co Offaly has cleared the first hurdle after a decision by An Bord Pleanála to grant it “strategic infrastructure” status.

The decision means the developers of the proposed airport at Tubber will be able to apply directly to the planning board and will not have to submit an initial application to the local authorities.

The planned €200 million development, 20km east of Athlone and 80km west of Dublin, is a private initiative led by Tullamore-based architect, Patrick Little.

The 640-hectare site is in an area that An Bord Pleanála described as “lightly populated” and “relatively level” and is 640 hectares in area.

Mr Little said he had secured the backing of eight investors, and their financial commitment to fund the project was “pretty firm”.

The project does not have any State funding and the Department of Transport said it had “no plans to support the development of any new airports”.

In a statement yesterday, the department said its policy was that private individuals could develop airports in “whatever location they wished”, provided they met standards set down by the Irish Aviation Authority and secured planning permission.

It added, however, that “the financial demands of running an airport are very challenging and it is, of course, a matter for airport promoters to satisfy themselves that a new airport can function as a viable commercial entity”.

Mr Little said the backers were “keen to see that the midlands will benefit from its gateway status and develop in a sustainable way”.

The airport would be situated close to the M6 motorway, and the project includes the construction of a railway linking it to the Dublin-Galway mainline rail route.

Mr Little said he had been in consultation with Iarnród Éireann and the company was “excited” about the application. Travel time from Dublin to the new airport would be 65 minutes by road, and 45 minutes by train.

The project would cater for both passenger traffic and commercial cargo traffic.

The developers estimate the airport would cater to two million passengers a year by 2020.

A “good number” of low-cost airlines had made expressions of interest, Mr Little said. In a statement, Ryanair said: “If Tubber airport is to be a low-cost facility, we will certainly consider offering Ryanair’s lowest fares to and from Co Offaly.”

Aer Lingus declined to say if it would operate from the airport.

Mr Little expects to submit a planning application within the next eight months. An Bord Pleanála will hold oral hearings before deciding whether to grant permission. Mr Little said he was confident the project would get permission, that construction would commence within the next 12 months and that the airport would be open at the end of 2013.

Godge

Seloth wrote: »

This problem would be one if not the greatest.While it is horrible to do so the government is moving to a more private sector model with the new public management model.In the private sector people are given very little choice over such matters.With the decentralization plan as I've made mention of before as there were such protests over moment they began to hire new people essentially having two people for the one job.While some smaller offices may be held outside the new area the majority would be located there.

Well essentially the same as it is done now no?And so seeing as this is a new area I'm sure a new commuter system would be established.For those , hopefully now the majority living in the area they could use the local commuter services and for those going from longer distances again like many with the Dublin situation then a new train/bus service can be established.

Yes this is very true.But once thing which I both fear and am annoyed at with the current world is such things hold back.Where once there was a time grand statues would be built it is now a time (be it recession or now)people wish to remove funding form culture.Time should not hold us back.

One example is Brasillia,which was founded in the 1960's!

Again this is only a idea/suggestion so too all don't try and take it personally or to heart,its merely to discuss it.

They also did it in Nigeria. And in North Korea, they are very good at this sort of thing. China did the forced relocation thing with the Cultural Revolution.

Listen to your proposal. Forcing people to move to a bog in the midlands against their will. And fyi, no private company in Ireland has ever employed as many as the civil service and attempted anything like this, in fact I would be confident no private company anywhere has ever attempted anything like that.

Spending the equivalent of the cost of Terminal 2, Metro North and the M50 on road and rail plus the cost of the buildings. How much is a Taj Mahal these days??? Oh, and all that is before the private sector sweep in and build the residential and commercial aspects. Will it be like Disney in Florida with lots of nice houses with white picket fences or will we have to opt for the downmarket Eastern European option of grey apartment blocks. Hey, if we build them high enough, people might see the sun above the fog.

This is a childish dream of an idea, could probably be modelled in Lego.

P.S. Where in anything you have read is the "government is moving to a more private sector model with the new public management model". Show me any aspect of the Croke Park agreement that would allow for this.

the_syco

All road lead to Rome Dublin. This includes train lines, motorways, etc, etc. Also, the nearest airport to Athlone is Shannon.

Finally, which politicians backyard happens to be Athlone? This is most often the case the reason behind these silly thoughts: some overpaid gimp wants the Dail in next to their house.

Seloth

My your taking this quite aggressively

Godge wrote: »

They also did it in Nigeria. And in North Korea, they are very good at this sort of thing. China did the forced relocation thing with the Cultural Revolution.

Its not a forced relocation,they have the option not too move if they wish not too.

Godge wrote: »

Listen to your proposal. Forcing people to move to a bog in the midlands against their will. And fyi, no private company in Ireland has ever employed as many as the civil service and attempted anything like this, in fact I would be confident no private company anywhere has ever attempted anything like that.

When you think of the civil service you must remember that the majority is not in Dublin,and that the civil service numbers also include council workers,teachers,doctors,teachers etc.It would only be those in the departments.And I find it quite interesting how you state it as a bog.Please giving me your full view on Ireland outside Dublin,d'you you think Dublin is the only modern part of the country perhaps?And large company's that denied too move jobs on large scales terminate those previous jobs.

Godge wrote: »

Spending the equivalent of the cost of Terminal 2, Metro North and the M50 on road and rail plus the cost of the buildings. How much is a Taj Mahal these days??? Oh, and all that is before the private sector sweep in and build the residential and commercial aspects. Will it be like Disney in Florida with lots of nice houses with white picket fences or will we have to opt for the downmarket Eastern European option of grey apartment blocks. Hey, if we build them high enough, people might see the sun above the fog.

I'm just laughing at the full on hatred you seem to spew hear even more so.There are things called regulations and planning permission.

Godge wrote: »

P.S. Where in anything you have read is the "government is moving to a more private sector model with the new public management model".

Well seeing as my degree mostly focused on the government and how its system works I think I do know a fine bit about it as well as two of my core text making mention of this.I'm not trying too gloat or boast about this small matter,But I did recently write a paper on new public management so quite a darn bit of what I read spoke of this.


All I have too say dude is calm down,its a discussion not a debate =P

Guys just to state again this wouldn't be in the near future.It of course would be madness too do such a thing in this economy.And also it would move the departments,with sub branches possibly left off in various towns etc.This is only a brief idea and outline..not a comprehensive report or plan hah

What would you do with the current Dail building op?

Well ideally it could be used as a museum perhaps.But as you can see,the worlds first purpose built parliament is now belongs too Bank of Ireland.And no hah I'm not IRA

Finally, which politicians backyard happens to be Athlone? This is most often the case the reason behind these silly thoughts: some overpaid gimp wants the Dail in next to their house.

Thats why it'd be a special Administrative zone.

Einhard

Seloth, you still haven't answered my question. What would be the point of a move? I really can't see any great benefit.

Seloth

Einhard wrote: »

Seloth, you still haven't answered my question. What would be the point of a move? I really can't see any great benefit.

If you read through it has been answered several times.And as I also said this is only an idea being thrown out to be discussed ,not a proposal people should try and add as ti what they believe would be both the pro's and cons.

paky

op there are easier ways of decentralizing. if they invested in an adequate reliable transport system and pumped money into smaller towns to make them more attractive to live in, that would be half the battle.
an effective transport system is the key to decentralization and a s far as this country is concerned that day will never come.

hobochris

Given that a large majority of the population live in Dublin, then there is no need, the government buildings are already in the best location for most of the population.

Godge

Seloth wrote: »

Its not a forced relocation,they have the option not too move if they wish not too.


Well seeing as my degree mostly focused on the government and how its system works I think I do know a fine bit about it as well as two of my core text making mention of this.I'm not trying too gloat or boast about this small matter,But I did recently write a paper on new public management so quite a darn bit of what I read spoke of this.

If it is not a forced relocation, what do you do with those who don't want to go? And when answering this, remember that the Croke Park agreement doesn't allow for compulsory redundancy.

I don't like the "my degree is better than yours" type of debate but you have started it so here goes. One of my degrees is a Masters in Public Administration with a first class honours thesis focussing on an aspect of public management. I also have considerable (nearly twenty years) previous working experience in a number of different parts of the public service (now in the private sector, escaped before the pay cuts and pension levy:)). If I think the idea is rubbish, it is not because I am a thirteen-year old with a computer.

Very interested in the core texts you mention which propose this idea. Maybe you could reference them with particular focus on the Irish situation. I haven't heard of this idea being discussed seriously (in fact haven't heard of it discussed at all) anywhere within the civil service, apparatus of government or academic circles so I would be interested in any information you have on this.

Until you can come up with something more concrete - a recent paper from the ESRI or the IPA or a peer-reviewed article that advocates this for example - I find it hard to take seriously the idea that such a proposal is being considered outside the realms of "what if".

cyclopath2001

Seloth wrote: »

Its not a forced relocation,they have the option not too move if they wish not too.

If they refuse will they lose their jobs?

Seloth wrote: »

When you think of the civil service you must remember that the majority is not in Dublin,and that the civil service numbers also include council workers,teachers,doctors,teachers etc.

'council workers,teachers,doctors,teachers etc.'are not civil servants.

Seloth wrote: »

It would only be those in the departments.

Many civil servants don't work in Dublin. Is the criteria for your plan only to pick on people who work in Dublin? I can see some logic in centralising all government in one location as it would make redeployment of staff easier since they'd all live in the one place. That said, Dublin would be a logical place, given its strategic location, existing infrastructure and availability of an educated workforce. It would also help to reduce unemployment in Dublin, which is as serious a problem there as elsewhere.

Seloth wrote: »

And large company's that denied too move jobs on large scales terminate those previous jobs.

Companies move for valid business reasons. You've not put anything concrete forward other than the notion that jobs can be created in one place by destroying them elsewhere.

Seloth wrote: »

Well seeing as my degree mostly focused on the government and how its system works....But I did recently write a paper on new public management so quite a darn bit of what I read spoke of this.

And yet you don't know that teachers are not civil servants?

Jo King

There have been proposals for many years to develop and other urban centre in order to provide a counterweight to Dublin. It is considered that Dublin has become more developed relative to the rest of the country. That was the theory behind the Gateway strategy.

Moving the administrative capital, it has been suggested, would result in a flow of other types of activity to that area.

The problem with Athlone by now, is that it is too close to Dublin. It is now part of the Dublin commuter belt.

As for the practicalities, if the move was properly planned and implemented it would be feasible. There will probably be benefits to not allowing Dublin increase in size to the extent that it will inevitably do if its current growth continues. The citizens of Dublin and surrounding areas now have a poorer quality of life than those in other areas by reason of excessive traffic and long-distance commuting.

cyclopath2001

Jo King wrote: »

The citizens of Dublin and surrounding areas now have a poorer quality of life than those in other areas by reason of excessive traffic and long-distance commuting.

This is mostly asserted by people who don't live in Dublin.

The citizens of Dublin enjoy good and relatively easy access to public transport, parks, shopping, universities, hospitals and short commutes, often by bus, DART or Luas. In general, the lifestyle is equal to or better than those who live in rural areas. Of course, rural dwellers might think that their lives are better and assume everyone wants to live in a one-off house up a hillside with a spectacular view, 15 minutes by four-wheel-drive to the local petrol station and grocery store.

The people who complain about traffic are those travelling from outside Dublin.

What's happening is that non-Dubliners want Dublin-based jobs moved out of Dublin. (Perhaps investors in 'ghost estates' near Longford?)

Iwasfrozen

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

This is mostly asserted by people who don't live in Dublin.

The citizens of Dublin enjoy good and relatively easy access to public transport, parks, shopping, universities, hospitals and short commutes, often by bus, DART or Luas. In general, the lifestyle is equal to or better than those who live in rural areas. Of course, rural dwellers might think that their lives are better and assume everyone wants to live in a one-off house up a hillside with a spectacular view, 15 minutes by four-wheel-drive to the local petrol station and grocery store.

The people who complain about traffic are those travelling from outside Dublin.

What's happening is that non-Dubliners want Dublin-based jobs moved out of Dublin. (Perhaps investors in 'ghost estates' near Longford?)

Not true, I live in Dublin after being raised in the country and I can say the quality of life is better in the country.

Dubliners while being closer to these things as the crow flies often have to spend the same amount of time as us country folk to get there because of queues, traffic etc. And yes, houses in the country are a much better quality.

Because they aren't used to it.

And what's wrong with that? It isn't healthy for the country to have half it's population crammed into 2 of 24 counties. Decentralisation is long over due in Ireland.

Godge

Jo King wrote: »

There have been proposals for many years to develop and other urban centre in order to provide a counterweight to Dublin. It is considered that Dublin has become more developed relative to the rest of the country. That was the theory behind the Gateway strategy.

Moving the administrative capital, it has been suggested, would result in a flow of other types of activity to that area.

The problem with Athlone by now, is that it is too close to Dublin. It is now part of the Dublin commuter belt.

As for the practicalities, if the move was properly planned and implemented it would be feasible. There will probably be benefits to not allowing Dublin increase in size to the extent that it will inevitably do if its current growth continues. The citizens of Dublin and surrounding areas now have a poorer quality of life than those in other areas by reason of excessive traffic and long-distance commuting.

These proposals have come from quangos like the Western Development Commission or whatever it is called now and Udaras Na Gaeltachta. They have no basis in economic reality.

Look around you, outside the small confines of Ireland. Dublin is not large, it is a small provincial city by European standards and a large town by Chinese standards.

The biggest problem with Dublin is the stupid political decision taken some years ago to develop places like Navan, Naas, Arklow, Portlaoise, Drogheda, Dundalk etc. as commuter towns for Dublin. Believe it or not, there are still some greenfield sites within the M50 as well as a large number of brownfield sites. Coupled with sensible development of public transport, we could have had a marvellous capital city.

The failure of our political system, based on the Late Late Show mentality of one for everyone in the audience (or country) has meant that we have never been able to priorities our larger cities in the way we should have. Look at the stupid National Spatial Strategy for example. Ireland should have developed two (Dublin, Cork) or maybe three (Limerick or Galway added) cities as centres of development. Instead we have vote-winning codology like the Midlands Gateway.

The part of your post in bold is unreal. There is no way that moving the capital city outside of Dublin is feasible this century given the country we have built and the debts that we have. Next.

Einhard

Seloth wrote: »

If you read through it has been answered several times.And as I also said this is only an idea being thrown out to be discussed ,not a proposal people should try and add as ti what they believe would be both the pro's and cons.

OK, I can play that game. Any benefit will be hugely outweighed by the massive cons of such a move. Again, I really fail to see the point. Someone has mentioned that the capital should be more central, but that's a ridiculous notion, especially with communications technology and infrastructure facilitating such easy transfer of people and ideas. Washingon DC, Paris, London, Canberra, Berlin, Moscw- none of thse capitals are in the centre of their respective countries. Even a throw away idea has to have some basic rationale behind it in order to prmpt serious discussion- this doesn't.

raymon

Biffo we will not relocate you to offaly. You won't have a job in the new year anyway

cyclopath2001

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Not true, I live in Dublin after being raised in the country and I can say the quality of life is better in the country.... And yes, houses in the country are a much better quality.

We should not be encouraging more people to live in ribbon developmenst or one-off houses in the middle of areas of scenic amenity, outside of cities in large, energy inefficient houses. This degrades the tourist product and increases our dependency on imported fuel.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

And what's wrong with that? It isn't healthy for the country to have half it's population crammed into 2 of 24 counties.

It is not healthy to destroy our countryside.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Decentralisation is long over due in Ireland.

That is so 2003, but now, with the need to down-size the civil service, it makes a lot of sense to centralise government so that people can easily transfer between departments without needing to move house, spouse and children.

The proposal is to centralise government, I agree with that. Dublin is the best location.

Jo King

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

We should not be encouraging more people to live in ribbon developmenst or one-off houses in the middle of areas of scenic amenity, outside of cities in large, energy inefficient houses. This degrades the tourist product and increases our dependency on imported fuel.

It is not healthy to destroy our countryside.

[/Q

No one this talking about tearing up the countryside. Whats is being proposed is a second urban area to relieve Dublin and have more balance in the development of the country.

cyclopath2001

Jo King wrote: »

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

No one this talking about tearing up the countryside. Whats is being proposed is a second urban area to relieve Dublin and have more balance in the development of the country.

We already have more than one city?

What is being proposed is to move all civil servants from all over the country into one location.

Cookie_Monster

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

What is being proposed is to move all civil servants from all over the country into one location.

which in general makes a lot of sense. there will always be parts of the service that will remain location specific but the vast majority should all be in one place. Cuts down on transport costs, reduces duplication of positions, especially in the like of admin, finance and HR.

cyclopath2001

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

which in general makes a lot of sense. there will always be parts of the service that will remain location specific but the vast majority should all be in one place. Cuts down on transport costs, reduces duplication of positions, especially in the like of admin, finance and HR.

And Dublin must be the front runner as it has so much to offer. The addional jobs and commerce would be very welcome too.

Nermal

Jo King wrote: »

The citizens of Dublin and surrounding areas now have a poorer quality of life than those in other areas by reason of excessive traffic and long-distance commuting.

If we accept that (it's nonsense) I wonder will the bogheads stop carping on about spending money on Metro North to alleviate this problem?

By the way I think Belfast is the perfect capital. They've already got the building we need.

Jo King

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

And Dublin must be the front runner as it has so much to offer. The addional jobs and commerce would be very welcome too.

Dublin is a mess.It hasn't even got enough water for itself. It has evolved in a haphazard manner which has left it in considerable difficulty.Too much of Dublin was built on the 24 bed spaces per acre rule.The result is that there is not enough accommodation for families in the city centre, a mass of low-density inner suburbs, some high-density outer suburbs, and a massively dispersed commuter belt.
Putting thousands of civil servants back in on top of that would be ridiculous.

Iwasfrozen

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

We should not be encouraging more people to live in ribbon developmenst or one-off houses in the middle of areas of scenic amenity, outside of cities in large, energy inefficient houses. This degrades the tourist product and increases our dependency on imported fuel.

Tourist product? What are you on about? This isn't Japan the country is more then capable of handeling 4.5 million people without destroying the countryside. As for increasing our dependency on imported fuel, so what?

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

It is not healthy to destroy our countryside.

This country has one of the lowest population desities in Europe. We won't destroy the countryside.

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

That is so 2003, but now, with the need to down-size the civil service, it makes a lot of sense to centralise government so that people can easily transfer between departments without needing to move house, spouse and children.

The idea is to centralise government, outside of Dublin.

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

The proposal is to centralise government, I agree with that. Dublin is the best location.

No it isn't, Dublin isn't centrally located as well as that property prices are more expensive. There is no advantage to having government in Dublin.

EricPraline

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

This country has one of the lowest population desities in Europe. We won't destroy the countryside.

Have you learned nothing from the last decade? Ireland is a textbook example of the disastorous effects of lax planning, ribbon development, and once-off housing. Drive west from Dublin and through the midlands, and you can't fail to see how this has blighted the landscape of the country.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

As for increasing our dependency on imported fuel, so what?

When fuel prices begin to trend upwards again as the rest of the world emerges from recession, this will cost us dearly.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

No it isn't, Dublin isn't centrally located as well as that property prices are more expensive..

I think the point is that Dublin is centrally located in relation to major air and sea travel infrastructure. The idea of having an administrative capital 1+ hour away from an international airport is patently ridiculous. It was hard to justify constructing the newly-opened Terminal 2, let alone building another one.

Also you don't think that property prices would sky rocket in whatever location was chosen for the new administrative capital, years before the administration was even in place? It would be a developer's wet dream.

Frankly I'm surprised that the OP's half-baked idea has generated this much discussion. It merely amounts to playing music chairs with civil service jobs. Instead of dismantling our civil service and re-instituting it somewhere else, a more useful exercise would be discussing how we can slash the size and reduce the inefficiencies of our current administrative setup.

Iwasfrozen

EricPraline wrote: »

Have you learned nothing from the last decade? Ireland is a textbook example of the disastorous effects of lax planning, ribbon development, and once-off housing. Drive west from Dublin and through the midlands, and you can't fail to see how this has blighted the landscape of the country.

I'm not exactly sure what you're getting at here. Yes a lot of half baked developments where thrown up prior to the property burst but that hardly has anything to do with the relocation of Government.

EricPraline wrote: »

When fuel prices begin to trend upwards again as the rest of the world emerges from recession, this will cost us dearly.

This is true but the amount of people we're talking about relocating (a couple thousand) will not largely impact the population of the countryside. Nor will it hugely increase fuel demands.

EricPraline wrote: »

I think the point is that Dublin is centrally located in relation to major air and sea travel infrastructure. The idea of having an administrative capital 1+ hour away from an international airport is patently ridiculous. It was hard to justify constructing the newly-opened Terminal 2, let alone building another one.

Why is it ridiculous? I don't see why the government would have to be next to an airport.

EricPraline wrote: »

Also you don't think that property prices would sky rocket in whatever location was chosen for the new administrative capital, years before the administration was even in place? It would be a developer's wet dream.

Sure they will. But they'll still be less then Dublin.

EricPraline wrote: »

Frankly I'm surprised that the OP's half-baked idea has generated this much discussion. It merely amounts to playing music chairs with civil service jobs. Instead of dismantling our civil service and re-instituting it somewhere else, a more useful exercise would be discussing how we can slash the size and reduce the inefficiencies of our current administrative setup.

Because it's an interesting idea and you do know that we can relocate government and reduce size and inefficiencies.