Drag Queens... pop... etc...

hotmail.com

hypersquirrel wrote: »

No, not blaming drag queens. Blaming the "scene" in general. When you are struggling to come to terms with something that is genuinely frightening to you the last thing you need is the stereotype being forced upon you. It's not drag queens that are the issue, each to their own and they have every right to do as they wish. The issue is to do with the perceived dominance of the stereotype.

I am generally a quiet and reserved person. When you are first exploring your sexuality a lot of people don't just dive head first into it all. They look from a distance. From that distance all you see is the stereotype. That caused me to try to wish myself straight and deny my attraction to women because I didn't want to have to try and deal with all that. It was only when I started to become more secure in my own sexuality that I was able to look beyond it.

You're misdirecting your blame I'm afraid. It's people's intolerance of gay people (that helps to form these incorret stereotypes) that is the key issue relating to your delay. Your delay had nothing to do with the gay scene, other gay people, drag queens, Graham Norton or anything else that you mightn't like. It was down to the intolerance of people that surrounded you as you grew up and it's obviously rubbed off on you.

hypersquirrel

hotmail.com wrote: »

You're misdirecting your blame I'm afraid. It's people's intolerance of gay people (that helps to form these incorret stereotypes) that is the key issue relating to your delay.

Well I can tell you now, I was never worried about what people would think of me. I was never worried that I would face intolerance. What worried me was entering into a scene that was totally alien to what I enjoy.

That stereotype is not one created by intolerant homophobes. It is one created from within the gay community. Again the blame doesn't lie on drag queens, they are free to express themselves in any way they feel fit. It lies in the fact that this is a stereotype openly promoted by many lgbt groups around the country. Look at college societies for a start. When I was in college the lgbt were usually going around with rainbows painted on their faces and throwing confetti around the place.

Nevyn

I don't that we are ever going to see a lesbian bar like the George, I know there are plenty of unoffical lesbian bars/pub and you know about them via word of mouth rather then being publicised. The lesbian scene due to a range of factors is still very protected/sheltered in this country.

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hypersquirrel wrote: »

Well I can tell you now, I was never worried about what people would think of me. I was never worried that I would face intolerance. What worried me was entering into a scene that was totally alien to what I enjoy.

That stereotype is not one created by intolerant homophobes. It is one created from within the gay community. Again the blame doesn't lie on drag queens, they are free to express themselves in any way they feel fit. It lies in the fact that this is a stereotype openly promoted by many lgbt groups around the country. Look at college societies for a start. When I was in college the lgbt were usually going around with rainbows painted on their faces and throwing confetti around the place.

So what??

It's your sexuality, not a lifestyle. Some gay people are camp, like to dress up, listen to pop music. Some aren't.

So what??

hypersquirrel

The point was, you said the stereotype was created by people intolerant of gays when quite clearly it is a stereotype actively promoted within the gay community.

As I have said multiple times, they have every right to do as they please, but in my instance, I found that it did result in me feeling alienated while you said it was nonsense to say that such behaviour leaves "straight" acting gays feeling isolated.

Nevyn

Can we just not use the terms camp and non camp, cos straight acting is a daft term.
I know 'straight' men and women who defy that label.

hypersquirrel

Sorry, was just using it as it was the phrasing initially posted by someone.

hotmail.com

hypersquirrel wrote: »

The point was, you said the stereotype was created by people intolerant of gays when quite clearly it is a stereotype actively promoted within the gay community.

As I have said multiple times, they have every right to do as they please, but in my instance, I found that it did result in me feeling alienated while you said it was nonsense to say that such behaviour leaves "straight" acting gays feeling isolated.

It's a real pity you feel isolated, perhaps you need to loosen up a little. Not all gay men are the same.

The basic point is that all people need to be tolerant of all people, their sexuality and their lifestyle. If another gay guy is as camp as Xmas, it really doesn't bother me at all. What does bother me is when people are intolerant of him/make fun of him. They are the ones with the problems and they need to change their behaviour. Camp people do not.

hypersquirrel

Well I think that's a point we can both agree on.

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Thaedydal wrote: »

Can we just not use the terms camp and non camp, cos straight acting is a daft term.
I know 'straight' men and women who defy that label.

Yep sorry I agree. I think we need to get away from labels.

azezil

Well it's not *all* drag queens and pop music:

From:http://www.queerid.com/topic.aspx?topicid=28719&pageno=1

RULE stands for... Rubber, Uniform, Leather Experience. But the dress code includes more than that. See below.

RULE
Fetish Gay Dublin: Rubber.Uniform. Leather. Experience
Is going to be the next Fetish Night in Dublin for "Men Only".

30th January 8pm until Late
McGrattans Bar
Fitzwilliam Lane, Lower Baggot St, Dublin 2.
(Behind Tesco's)


RULE is the only gay fetish club in Dublin.
We have a dress code which includes: Leather, Rubber, Uniform, Skinhead, Army, Work gear, Sports/Scally/Trackies, Bears, Lycra, Jockstrap with Chaps .

It runs on the last Sunday of each month. It starts at 8pm and runs till late, in McGrattan's Bar, Fitzwillian Lane, off Baggott Street, Dublin 2.

Admission is €5 before 10pm and €8 after 10pm.
Students and unwaged are €5 all night (proof required after 10pm).

We provide a cloakroom and changing facilities in the venue.

Website www.rule.ie coming soon!

http://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/RULE/173571112678871?v=info

In recent years more and more guys are coming out on the Irish gay fetish scene. This group is a way for us to meet each other online and organise events we want where we can meet up socially. We already have a new club night running in Dublin each month. The numbers attending the event are growing.

If you want to hook up with other guys who share your interest in fetish gear then this is the place for you. Here we will keep you informed of upcoming events of interest to you and your friends. Together we can build a community and events we want.

It's men only at the moment but they're hoping if it takes off to open a women only section too.

St._Andalou

This thread is interesting. One of my lecturers in college (who's straight) had a theory that people are intimidated by drag queens because they remind them that gender is not a fixed concept.

Goodshape wrote: »

Honest question, not trying to be smart I just simply don't understand it -- how did a man dressing up as a woman and miming to ****e pop music for an audience of men who are attracted to men ever become a staple of "gay culture" ?

I'm a man, I'm attracted to men... so lets go and watch a man dressed up as a woman singing female pop songs? What?

First off, I think you're exaggerating how much this is a staple on the gay scene. It's common, sure, but it's by no means the centre-piece of Dublin's gay scene.

Why do you feel that you're being forced to identify with drag queens or pop music just because you're gay? Some gay men like pop music, but that's a matter of taste, not sexuality. I like pop music now and again (I have lots of embarrassing ****e on my iPod) but my favourite band is The Smiths. I think a lot of this is in your head.

Goodshape wrote: »

Is pop and drag an inescapable part of "gay culture"? That really makes me sad. Or am I just no fun and I should "come to terms with my sexuality" and learn to love the pop?

Again, it's a matter of taste. It has nothing to do with your sexuality.

Goodshape wrote: »

Went to Q&A once or twice but pretty sure I must have missed it's good days. Particularly the second time I went, I think it was Veda (a drag queen) on stage playing what sounded very much like pop music to me. Or, at best, the most very obvious and safe indy.

As Zoegh has already said, this is a matter of business rather than men's taste. The reality is, Dublin is a mid-sized city. There simply isn't the market there. There are a number of monthly/on-off gay indie clubs. I haven't been to Q&A in awhile, but I enjoyed it the last time I went. It was in the Vaults so there were three rooms -- each of which were playing different varieties of music. Drag queens are definitely not a main part of Q&A, nor are they a regular fixture there.

These nights tend to come and go, or they fold and new ones spring up. Keep an eye on gay listings, or on Facebook. C.U.N.T. is very gay friendly I think, takes place sporadically, and plays an eclectic mix of music.

I think if people apply stereotypes to you -- drag queens, pop music, etc. -- based on your sexual orientation then the problem is with them, not you. Lots of media outlets have stupid stereotypes of black people, for example: they like hip-hop, they're soulful musicians, and on and on; I don't assume that all black people are like this, and neither do you. Like I say, the issue may be largely in your head.

Goodshape

St._Andalou wrote: »

This thread is interesting. One of my lecturers in college (who's straight) had a theory that people are intimidated by drag queens because they remind them that gender is not a fixed concept.

Maybe. But drag queens aren't attempting to change gender, it's just dress up, right?

First off, I think you're exaggerating how much this is a staple on the gay scene. It's common, sure, but it's by no means the centre-piece of Dublin's gay scene.

Well, it was a hungover rant. Slight exaggeration may have been included. Wasn't just about the drag queens though; it's the pop/disco music and general attitude too. I just don't like that "gay" carries with it any sort of behavioral requirements or expectations.

As I mentioned in the other thread I was basically refused entry to the George last night for not looking gay enough.

Seriously, I was well enough dressed, not too drunk, on my own. I got the "have you been here before?" line.. fair enough... "yeah, not in a while though. My boyfriend is inside". He gave me a 'yeah, right' look and said management reserves the right to refuse entry.

Tried to call the boyfriend but no answer... I had to show him my personal text messages to prove I was, in fact, gay.

What did he want? A pink top? Chaps? Should I have answered his questions with a lisp? Really pissed me off.

Why do you feel that you're being forced to identify with drag queens or pop music just because you're gay? Some gay men like pop music, but that's a matter of taste, not sexuality.

Right, but if I want to go somewhere I know I can safely sit close and share an occasional kiss with my boyfriend, the options that don't include obnoxious music and kitsch are very limited. Particularly on the weekend.

I think a lot of this is in your head.

Tbh, yeah, probably. Like I said, it was a hungover rant... and I don't much like straight disco's either if I'm being honest . Not entirely unfounded though.

Again, it's a matter of taste. It has nothing to do with your sexuality.

Wasn't that my point?

Where have the gay's with good taste got to go?

The reality is, Dublin is a mid-sized city. There simply isn't the market there.

Yeah, I get that point. Pop and disco is what's expected and has been proven to sell. No one wants to take the risk.

These nights tend to come and go, or they fold and new ones spring up. Keep an eye on gay listings, or on Facebook. C.U.N.T. is very gay friendly I think, takes place sporadically, and plays an eclectic mix of music.

Will do!