where are our gov. ?

ednwireland

heard a peice at about 11 am on rte radio1 this morning about hospital beds this morning which gov minister did they interview, harney - no still on holiday when sh1t hits the fan as usual , maybe cowen ( it is important after all), ok hes not available maybe the tanaiste then ? nope

the fupping minister for agriculture

i mean, these people have absolutely no shame, i really really despair, they seem to have absolutely no idea that people want to see them up there leading (which imo they havent done for the best part of 10 years)

please bring on the election

ilovesleep

Brian cowen has a holiday home in roundstone, co.galway if you want to get him up of his arse.

Biggins

Harney is YET AGAIN in New Zealand on an extended holiday.
(She goes there quite a lot it seems in the last year or two - I cannot say more on that here.)
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/harney-still-on-holiday-as-500-stuck-on-trolleys-2487649.html

DrumSteve

She must be checking out a few clinics over there :rolleyes:

axer

So should Mary Harney not be allowed to go on holidays?
Can she wave a magic wand and fix the issues?

DrumSteve

axer wrote: »

So should Mary Harney not be allowed to go on holidays?
Can she wave a magic wand and fix the issues?

She can get her finger out and do her ****in job.

Biggins

DrumSteve wrote: »

She can get her finger out and do her ****in job.

Personally I wish she would just stay away. Let someone else take over!
They couldn't do any worse and they might remain at work a bit more than her.

Humans eh!

axer wrote: »

So should Mary Harney not be allowed to go on holidays?
Can she wave a magic wand and fix the issues?

She'll be unemployed in March and can go to hell then.

Show me one business owner who goes on holiday when their business is in trouble.
BTW OP, we have no government in this country only self serving incompetents who will walk away from the mess they oversay/created with more money than many of us will ever see.
I'm leaving now, before I say something about the so called government I'll regret.

FreudianSlippers

AFAIK Harney is not on "holiday" - she is on a "personal break" (usually means death or sickness in the family)

deanh

She does seem to go missing in action quite a lot! There must be something in to those rumours after all.

axer

Humans eh! wrote: »

She'll be unemployed in March and can go to hell then.

Show me one business owner who goes on holiday when their business is in trouble.
BTW OP, we have no government in this country only self serving incompetents who will walk away from the mess they oversay/created with more money than many of us will ever see.
I'm leaving now, before I say something about the so called government I'll regret.

Why? is the HSE just in trouble now all of a sudden?

Justin Collery

Why are the managers of the hospitals not getting any flak over this?

Biggins

OisinT wrote: »

AFAIK Harney is not on "holiday" - she is on a "personal break" (usually means death or sickness in the family)

...In New Zealand again.
We should note that when other major politicians go away, the papers regularly report where they are exactly in a country - even if they do stay a respectable distance away and give them space.
With Harney, nothing. Not a word.

She must be special to get such privileged to get such more extreme privacy.

mike65

This government is like milk, not sour - evaporated.

Biggins

jcollery wrote: »

Why are the managers of the hospitals not getting any flak over this?

They are but what they are getting is just the crap rolling down hill.

Four years ago when things were economically better and better resources were supposedly available, THEN it was declared a national emergency over the beds situation - things have gotten even worse now!
The uselessness of the head(s) of the HSE is all too apparent.
Thank god one will be gone in three months.

ninty9er

The running of the Hospitals is the responsibility of the HSE. Oversight is from government.

The Minister for Health, like it or not, is not responsible for this.

axer

Biggins wrote: »

The uselessness of the head(s) of the HSE is all too apparent.

More the uselessness of Irish people. Everybody wants more. The staff want more pay and less work and so on. It is impossible to get things done with such attitudes. More (and better) work needs to be done for less pay but the unions won't allow that.

Like ninty9er said, the minister is not responsible for the day to day running of the hospitals. They direct from a very high level.

Dannyboy83

deanh wrote: »

She does seem to go missing in action quite a lot! There must be something in to those rumours after all.

But why New Zealand in particular?

I didn't know they had a reputation of note for Rehab


Unless they're filming "The Hobbit" already and desperately need some lifelife orcs, I don't understand the significance of NZ.

Biggins

ninty9er wrote: »

The running of the Hospitals is the responsibility of the HSE. Oversight is from government.

The Minister for Health, like it or not, is not responsible for this.

You telling us all that the Minister for Health does not have a responsibility to see how our hospital are run, staffed, supplied with the necessary drugs or have a say over cuts that bring about ward closures?

What does a Minister for Health do? Watch over lighthouses!

axer

Biggins wrote: »

You telling us all that the Minister for Health does not have a responsibility to see how our hospital are run, staffed, supplied with the necessary drugs or have a say over cuts that bring about ward closures?

From a very high level, yes. She wouldnt decide where the cuts are made exactly - maybe generally but not exactly. At the end of the day there is only so much money available to fund the health system in Ireland. It is the managers in the hse and hospitals that are the problem and you cannot fire them all or replace them all over night. It is naturally going to be a very slow process to reform the health system in Ireland with MASSIVE opposition to EVERY change.

Poly

Biggins wrote: »

What does a Minister for Health do? Watch over lighthouses!

Might as well, as we had the minsiter for Ag wheeled out to comment on health

Dannyboy83

ninty9er wrote: »

The running of the Hospitals is the responsibility of the HSE. Oversight is from government.

The Minister for Health, like it or not, is not responsible for this.

Granted, but if operators cannot perform their duty due to the screwed up system their are operating within, then the problem lies with the system architect anyway.

I heard a guy from the VHI on Newstalk yesterday talking about how they pay €2000 per day for a single bed in the Blackrock clinic.

How is stuff like this allowed to happen?
It appears that some of the ministers with major portfolios over the last decade have had to fit time for work in around their drinking activities.

Biggins

axer wrote: »

From a very high level, yes. She wouldnt decide where the cuts are made exactly - maybe generally but not exactly.

Thats the important bit. She mandates to the hospitals when things go wrong. She issues edicts.
She tells a hospital to buck-up, cut down or get rid of numbers- even hire a few more on rare occasions.
..Thats when she can be arsed to turn up and do her job!
(I attended a two day dail debate last year concerning Crumlin Hospital and for the WHOLE two days, there was no sign of her in the Dail chamber. She only appeared for five minutes to vote down €9 mil' euro in funding for the hospital - then she went back to her previous, in the building location - and it wasn't her office. See HERE.

Note: they refused the money to the hospital that day but a week later gave 10 mill' to the building of a small cycle road thru inner Dublin as the request of the Green party! Priorities eh! Which one would have saved more lives?)

axer wrote: »

At the end of the day there is only so much money available to fund the health system in Ireland. It is the managers in the hse and hospitals that are the problem and you cannot fire them all or replace them all over night. It is naturally going to be a very slow process to reform the health system in Ireland with MASSIVE opposition to EVERY change

There is slow - and there is no action at all.
And a lot of hospitals have streamlined everything they can. There is only so much they can do before the next edict comes from Harney and co, telling them to cut back even more!

You know there is only so much blood you can take from a body - before it collapses and dies!

axer

Biggins wrote: »

There is slow - and there is no action at all.
And a lot of hospitals have streamlined everything they can. There is only so much they can do before the next edict comes from Harney and co, telling them to cut back even more!

You know there is only so much blood you can take from a body - before it collapses and dies!

From what I can see any bigger changes that are being attempted are being blocked in everyway i.e. closing down a hospital because it doesnt make sense to have one there etc. The Irish government have only so much to spend so if a cut in spending is needed then a cut is needed - what other way is there around it?

enda1

Biggins wrote: »

Harney is YET AGAIN in New Zealand on an extended holiday.
(She goes there quite a lot it seems in the last year or two - I cannot say more on that here.)
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/harney-still-on-holiday-as-500-stuck-on-trolleys-2487649.html

When are you gonna drop the act that you know anything about our public representatives. The guarded shady comments do nothing to help your argument are and just cheap snipes and allusions with no substance. Gutless really.

If you have something to say, say it.

Also re: your attempted emotional blackmail for Crumlin. I'm glad it backfired. Hope you remember that not every penny in taxation should go towards your children's welfare.

Biggins

axer wrote: »

From what I can see any bigger changes that are being attempted are being blocked in every way i.e. closing down a hospital because it doesn't make sense to have one there etc.

Well others say (if your referring to Crumlin) that the present one is a lot easier to access than the new one that they have proposed to build - and thats alone one issue amid others connected with the new building!
(Its a whole thread topic in itself and has been discussed at length already somewhere back)

axer wrote: »

...The Irish government have only so much to spend so if a cut in spending is needed then a cut is needed - what other way is there around it?

My point is that "cut" can only be shouted so many times. When your down to skin and bone - there is nothing left to cut - and for all the shouting and blaming managers then of those hospitals, its passing on the "buck" as its said.
Cut them down to bone ...and then tell them its their fault! Stupidity beyond belief!

axer

Biggins wrote: »

My point is thast there is only cry "cut" so many times. when your down to skin and bone - there is nothing left to cut - and for all the shouting and blaming managers then of those hospitals, its passing on the "buck" as its said.
Cut them down to bone ...and then tell them its their fault! Stupidity beyond belief!

So if there is no money to continue to fund at the current level - what should be done then? Borrow more money?

Biggins

enda1 wrote: »

When are you gonna drop the act that you know anything about our public representatives. The guarded shady comments do nothing to help your argument are and just cheap snipes and allusions with no substance. Gutless really.

If you have something to say, say it.

Also re: your attempted emotional blackmail for Crumlin. I'm glad it backfired. Hope you remember that not every penny in taxation should go towards your children's welfare.

You have no idea what the hell your on about.
There are legal issues involved - and I deeply suspect you know that!

...And whats this garbage about "emotional blackmail!"
Go away and troll elsewhere.

Pherekydes

OisinT wrote: »

AFAIK Harney is not on "holiday" - she is on a "personal break" (usually means death or sickness in the family)

Why does the Minister never seem to take a holiday? She only seems to take "personal breaks".

The current silence from her quarter is deafening.

Biggins

axer wrote: »

So if there is no money to continue to fund at the current level - what should be done then? Borrow more money?

Maybe we should be looking at other parties proposals abut re-directing funding from other areas that can be streamlines more so - and have some of that money re-directed to the more important critical areas?
Just an idea. I'm sure others would come up with different options.

jmayo

ninty9er wrote: »

The running of the Hospitals is the responsibility of the HSE. Oversight is from government.

The Minister for Health, like it or not, is not responsible for this.

What oversight ?
The book never stops anywhere anymore.

Funny all these quangoes were set up by bertie (formerly the great) as a way of absolving the government of responsibility for anything.
Roads closed due to snow, nothing to do with minister of transport, go ask the NRA.
Railway bridge collapses, go ask NRPA.
Hospital care is pathetic, go ask HSE.
A query about childcare who do you go ask ?
Health and Children Children Acts Advisory Board 2007
or
HSE
or
Health and Children National Children's Advisory Council 2001
or
Health and Children National Childcare Coordinating Committee 1999.

Perish the though one would ask minister andrews cousin of ryan "goebbels" tubridy.

axer wrote: »

More the uselessness of Irish people. Everybody wants more. The staff want more pay and less work and so on. It is impossible to get things done with such attitudes. More (and better) work needs to be done for less pay but the unions won't allow that.

Yeah perish the thought patients would want a bed or patients families would want the best for them.
The staff, consultants and unions were given everything they wanted by the ff led governments of which harney was a prominent minister and the result is what we have today.

Biggins wrote: »

Thats the important bit. She mandates to the hospitals when things go wrong. She issues edicts.
She tells a hospital to buck-up, cut down or get rid of numbers- even hire a few more on rare occasions.
..Thats when she can be arsed to turn up and do her job!
(I attended a two day dail debate last year concerning Crumlin Hospital and for the WHOLE two days, there was no sign of her in the Dail chamber. She only appeared for five minutes to vote down €9 mil' euro in funding for the hospital - then she went back to her previous, in the building location - and it wasn't her office.

The Dail bar I bet ?

enda1

Biggins wrote: »

You have no idea what the hell your on about.
There are legal issues involved - and I deeply suspect you know that!

...And whats this garbage about "emotional blackmail!"
Go away and troll elsewhere.

Bringing sick children into the Dáil chamber to try pressure a sitting to voting for your cause. That's about as close to emotional blackmail as it gets.

From your reply its clear you haven't a notion as to why she's away.

Talk about trolling :rolleyes:

axer

Biggins wrote: »

Maybe we should be looking at other parties proposals abut re-directing funding from other areas that can be streamlines more so - and have some of that money re-directed to the more important critical areas?
Just an idea. I'm sure others would come up with different options.

So lets say you take away funding from Education for example. Now my kid can't go to college as we cannot afford the higher fees as a result. I think the hospitals can be streamlined more - what makes you think they can't? because they say they can't? because the unions won't accept people being let go or doing more work?

Biggins

enda1 wrote: »

Bringing sick children into the Dáil chamber to try pressure a sitting to voting for your cause. That's about as close to emotional blackmail as it gets.

From your reply its clear you haven't a notion as to why she's away.

Talk about trolling :rolleyes:

I actually do but I won't be provoked into breaking board.ie rules, especially by someone trying to attack a poster by intimidation.

Edit: I should add that the parents and the kids were there AT THE INVITATION of others below in the Dail.

axer

jmayo wrote: »

Yeah perish the thought patients would want a bed or patients families would want the best for them.
The staff, consultants and unions were given everything they wanted by the ff led governments of which harney was a prominent minister and the result is what we have today.

There is only so much money available. I completely agree that a hard line should be taken with regards consultants and unions. I dont think the croke park agreement should have been made. I can see why did they it i.e. to stop strikes etc but I think they should have been told to f**k off and let go if they refused the changes.

The only problem is who would people blame if the consultants and hospital staff went on strike? You got it - the minister for health.

Everybody wants everything and nobody wants to give up anything.

Biggins

axer wrote: »

So lets say you take away funding from Education for example. Now my kid can't go to college as we cannot afford the higher fees as a result. I think the hospitals can be streamlined more - what makes you think they can't? because they say they can't? because the unions won't accept people being let go or doing more work?

You bring up a whole big topic in itself. Probably deserves it own thread.

What we need to do if we like it or not (probably not and understandably so), is triage ALL our government departments.
I know some hospitals can cut back more so - but I know from being involved with Crumlin and talking to people there - and thru them to others in other hospitals - that what can possibly be cut back, has been absolutely done so in a lot of cases.
Of course others will say different and I understand each will fight their corner on what they believe, but like I said, in some cases there really is places that have cut everything they can, down to the bone.

axer

Biggins wrote: »

Of course others will say different and I understand each will fight their corner on what they believe, but like I aid, in some cases there really is places that have cut everything they can, down to the bone.

Exactly, every body will say they are already cut to the bone.

The cost of operating has to be cut one way or another - either by letting staff go, reducing wages or cutting back on services. There are no 2 ways about it. We cannot afford to keep funding the health services to the level we were funding. If you can come up with an easy way to resolve it then well done but I dont think there is an easy way. It is a highly complex system that will take years to change.

enda1

Biggins wrote: »

I actually do but I won't be provoked into breaking board.ie rules, especially by someone trying to attack a poster by intimidation.

So you're still chirping on the Derry woman's line then I guess? If so you are wrong, but you know that anyway...

No ones trying to intimidate you, I'm calling you up on your comments.

I'd just rather in a forum such as politics, when you make accusations or insinuations, that you back them up somehow, rather than constantly chip away at politicians characters using nothing but hearsay.

Biggins

axer wrote: »

Exactly, every body will say they are already cut to the bone.

The cost of operating has to be cut one way or another - either by letting staff go, reducing wages or cutting back on services. There are no 2 ways about it. We cannot afford to keep funding the health services to the level we were funding. If you can come up with an easy way to resolve it then well done but I dont think there is an easy way. It is a highly complex system that will take years to change.

No argument there. Sadly FF have had the guts of 27 years to effect change - and we are still in the right mess we are in.
Its a disgrace, lets be honest - regardless of who is to blame.
The fact that after so long, our health system is in such a dire mess is a stain on our ability to take care of our own people.

Biggins

enda1 wrote: »

So you're still chirping on the Derry woman's line then I guess? If so you are wrong, but you know that anyway...

No ones trying to intimidate you, I'm calling you up on your comments.

I'd just rather in a forum such as politics, when you make accusations or insinuations, that you back them up somehow, rather than constantly chip away at politicians characters using nothing but hearsay.

I acknowledge your opinion and I have stated what I can here.

axer

Biggins wrote: »

The fact that after so long, our health system is in such a dire mess is a stain on our ability to take care of our own people.

Irish people will always be useless at looking after ourselves until we loose the "Ah sure, it'll be grand" chancer attitude. I cannot see this happening any time soon.

Biggins

axer wrote: »

Irish people will always be useless at looking after ourselves until we loose the "Ah sure, it'll be grand" chancer attitude. I cannot see this happening any time soon.

Again, no argument.

danbohan

axer wrote: »

Irish people will always be useless at looking after ourselves until we loose the "Ah sure, it'll be grand" chancer attitude. I cannot see this happening any time soon.

or could it be ''the everybody is to blame for the mess that we are in except ourselves attitude '' which is equally as prevalent

enda1

Biggins wrote: »

No argument there. Sadly FF have had the guts of 27 years to effect change - and we are still in the right mess we are in.
Its a disgrace, lets be honest - regardless of who is to blame.
The fact that after so long, our health system is in such a dire mess is a stain on our ability to take care of our own people.

http://www.healthpowerhouse.com/media/RaportEHCI2006en.pdf
(page 20)

In 2006 our health service was ranked 25 in the EU (plus the Swiss and Norwegians)

http://www.healthpowerhouse.com/files/Index%20matrix%20EHCI%202009%20091001%20final%20A3%20sheet.pdf

In 2009 it had risen to 13th position all during the reign of this FF led government and more specifically while Mary Harney was mister for health.

Hmmm, your not selling this to me it must be said.

Viper_JB

enda1 wrote: »

So you're still chirping on the Derry woman's line then I guess? If so you are wrong, but you know that anyway...

No ones trying to intimidate you, I'm calling you up on your comments.

I'd just rather in a forum such as politics, when you make accusations or insinuations, that you back them up somehow, rather than constantly chip away at politicians characters using nothing but hearsay.

The politicians have constantly chipped away at their own characters through their actions and inactions they need no help in discrediting themselves. If you can't see that you must be living with your head in the sand for the last 12 years. They're public representatives and have to answer to us for their actions as we have to live with their decisions, they do not deserve your blind support.

enda1 wrote:

Also re: your attempted emotional blackmail for Crumlin. I'm glad it backfired. Hope you remember that not every penny in taxation should go towards your children's welfare.

I'm almost lost for words...I cannot fathom why ANYONE would berate a poster on here for actually going out and making a stand for something that all of us should be fighting for, it has NOTHING got to do with emotional blackmail. It has to do with highlighting the genuine problem that exists within our health care system to people who have no concept or care for the situation.

axer

Viper_JB wrote: »

The politicians have constantly chipped away at their own characters through their actions and inactions they need no help in discrediting themselves. If you can't see that you must be living with your head in the sand for the last 12 years. They're public representatives and have to answer to us for their actions as we have to live with their decisions, they do not deserve your blind support.

They are only answerable to the public at election. They don't have to take abuse from the public like the abuse being thrown at Mary Harney in this thread alone - believe it or not they are human beings like the rest of us.

Viper_JB wrote: »

I'm almost lost for words...I cannot fathom why ANYONE would berate a poster on here for actually going out and making a stand for something that all of us should be fighting for, it has NOTHING got to do with emotional blackmail. It has to do with highlighting the genuine problem that exists within our health care system to people who have no concept or care for the situation.

I doubt it was the standing up for something that was the issue - it was more the method.

Biggins

enda1 wrote: »

http://www.healthpowerhouse.com/media/RaportEHCI2006en.pdf
(page 20)
In 2006 our health service was ranked 25 in the EU (plus the Swiss and Norwegians)
http://www.healthpowerhouse.com/files/Index%20matrix%20EHCI%202009%20091001%20final%20A3%20sheet.pdf
In 2009 it had risen to 13th position all during the reign of this FF led government and more specifically while Mary Harney was mister for health.

Hmmm, your not selling this to me it must be said.

Fair play for digging those up. Credit where it is due to those responsible direct for effecting those changes.

It still has to be said though that even after all the years they have had, things are so bad as they are - and that is with a state of emergency declared 4 years ago with they thought things were bad then.

Meanwhile to go back to a previous post:

The running of the Hospitals is the responsibility of the HSE. Oversight is from government.
The Minister for Health, like it or not, is not responsible for this.

So by that principle Harney is not responsible but actually the "foots on floors" are for effecting those changes.
But hey, when things might be looking good Harney can claim credit and when they turn bad she can lay blame elsewhere!

Biggins

axer wrote: »

I doubt it was the standing up for something that was the issue - it was more the method.

Enda1 berated me for the fact kids were there - as if I brought them in!
As added to a previous post - they were actually there at the behests of TD's on those days!
NOT because parents wanted them there - but at the request of our elected TD's.

enda1

Viper_JB wrote: »

The politicians have constantly chipped away at their own characters through their actions and inactions they need no help in discrediting themselves. If you can't see that you must be living with your head in the sand for the last 12 years. They're public representatives and have to answer to us for their actions as we have to live with their decisions, they do not deserve your blind support.

How does any of that bear any relevance to what I said?

Viper_JB wrote: »

I'm almost lost for words...I cannot fathom why ANYONE would berate a poster on here for actually going out and making a stand for something that all of us should be fighting for, it has NOTHING got to do with emotional blackmail. It has to do with highlighting the genuine problem that exists within our health care system to people who have no concept or care for the situation.

This is the politics forum first of all. One of the main political tools available is that of debate and discourse. So I am using this to challenge a view/action. I disagree that "all of us should be fighting" for that particular cause.
Why other than emotional blackmail would parents bring their sick children to the Dáil viewing chamber pray tell??

To insinuate that the politicians don't care about the consequences of their decisions is just childish. I guess you don't actually mean this do you?

Biggins

enda1 wrote: »

...Why other than emotional blackmail would parents bring their sick children to the Dáil viewing chamber pray tell??

Answered above twice now.

jmayo

axer wrote: »

There is only so much money available. I completely agree that a hard line should be taken with regards consultants and unions. I dont think the croke park agreement should have been made. I can see why did they it i.e. to stop strikes etc but I think they should have been told to f**k off and let go if they refused the changes.

The only problem is who would people blame if the consultants and hospital staff went on strike? You got it - the minister for health.

Everybody wants everything and nobody wants to give up anything.

Listen the government at the time the HSE was created had a chance to make meaningful changes.
They had the benefit of an economic climate that allowed people who were unemployed to find work elsewhere, there was lots of money to affect redundancy policies.
Instead they set up the system where no duplicaiton was removed, in fact huge numebrs were added to management rather than streamlining it.
They created one hell of a mess.
The CPA is a piece of crap, just like the social partnertship arrangements of the late 90s and 2000s.
Who benefits ?
It was primarily public sector highly unionised employees, certain major employers who for the most part were the big banks and politicans who wanted to ensure stability and re-election.

Normal private sector workjers never benefited and normal small private sector employers never benefitted.

enda1 wrote: »

http://www.healthpowerhouse.com/media/RaportEHCI2006en.pdf
(page 20)

In 2006 our health service was ranked 25 in the EU (plus the Swiss and Norwegians)

http://www.healthpowerhouse.com/files/Index%20matrix%20EHCI%202009%20091001%20final%20A3%20sheet.pdf

In 2009 it had risen to 13th position all during the reign of this FF led government and more specifically while Mary Harney was mister for health.

Hmmm, your not selling this to me it must be said.

Complete BS.
The HSE and Dept of Health decided that they would institute loads of metrics and what has become the major goal of the health service is to ensure that they do well in these metrics.
Hell they intoduced HIQA in 2007, which is yet another quangoe with it's HQ in Cork, whose job it is to measure the HSE.

Ever wonder why they were not opening referral letters in Tallaght, did it have anything to do with fact that it ensured the waiting lists looked better ?

As someone who is related to two frontline patient facing health care professionals, I am always hearing how actual patient care has deminished and the new program managers only care how they measure up to some metric that the HSE chiefs and minister can trott out if they are questioned over the latest f**kups.

May I ask if you working for the HSE or Dept of Health ?