Low Skilled Jobs - How can we provide them?

Sleepy

Given that most of the jobs we've lost over the last 2 years have been in the construction, retail and manufacturing sectors we have a major problem that doesn't seem to be being addressed from what I can see.

The jobs we're creating (largely through the IDA and Enterprise Ireland) are, in the main, technical positions involving IT or Pharmaceuticals. While some lower-skilled administerial and maintenance positions will no-doubt be created alongside these, the bulk of the jobs we can win at present are not ones the vast majority of the live register can fill or, even more depressingly, be re-trained to fill.

The industries that most of our live register have come from aren't exactly the most productive for an economy either: selling things to each other and building houses to sell to each other.

Without much in the way of natural resources and with a cost of living that effectively rules out our being able to compete in the manufacturing industries a global economy how can we ever hope to get unemployment back down to a low level?

What labour intensive industries can we seek to compete in at a global level? Not everyone can be trained to be a software developer, bio-chemist etc.

macannrb

Sleepy wrote: »

Given that most of the jobs we've lost over the last 2 years have been in the construction, retail and manufacturing sectors we have a major problem that doesn't seem to be being addressed from what I can see.

The jobs we're creating (largely through the IDA and Enterprise Ireland) are, in the main, technical positions involving IT or Pharmaceuticals. While some lower-skilled administerial and maintenance positions will no-doubt be created alongside these, the bulk of the jobs we can win at present are not ones the vast majority of the live register can fill or, even more depressingly, be re-trained to fill.

The industries that most of our live register have come from aren't exactly the most productive for an economy either: selling things to each other and building houses to sell to each other.

Without much in the way of natural resources and with a cost of living that effectively rules out our being able to compete in the manufacturing industries a global economy how can we ever hope to get unemployment back down to a low level?

What labour intensive industries can we seek to compete in at a global level? Not everyone can be trained to be a software developer, bio-chemist etc.

If you think about it, most asian countries have taken on the low skilled jobs. Even the likes of Mexico is having problems holding onto low skilled jobs. Appearantly socks in china can be made at 11c a pair (source The world is flat by Thomas Friedman). We just can't compete on this level, especially if Mexico is having difficulty doing the same. The wages demanded here are simply way too high.

Hence why people have been complaining why we need a better education system and people with better maths skills.

Meanwhile the Asian workforce is upskilling themselves in Finance, IT, Maths and other high end jobs. They are simply more eagar to work then we are, and at far lower wages.


There will always be jobs at the low skills level, bins will always need collection, but these services have to be paid for essentially by the productive/exporting population . So the better the productive/exporting population the better the services that can be provided. But without a decent productive/exporting sector there is no need for a sector supporting these jobs.

zig

perhaps we must broaden our horizons out of desperation, like promote gambling tourism and build casinos. Or perhaps look to the far future , hire a bunch of engineers and designers from the likes of Toyota etc, and create a semi state owned company that produces a new cost effective electric or hybrid car. The car could be Irish designed and Irish produced. All manufacturing could be done here, including parts. Obviously this would cost billions and billions in investment hence I mean long term future.

We need homegrown manufacturing industry here, simple as. We have nothing solid, we hop from light industry to light industry boasting about the fact that Google are coming here creating a handful of jobs.

We need to try cut our dependence on Foreign investment and create our industry.

Sleepy

macannrb, while I'm all for investment in education, I'm wondering if there really is a sufficient level of people who are capable of working within the "knowledge economy" to support those who aren't in lower skilled jobs.

Or, more precisely, if the numbers we currently have capable of working in the areas in which we can compete can both support those unable to work in these areas whilst also investing heavily in education...

Sleepy

zig wrote: »

perhaps we must broaden our horizons out of desperation, like promote gambling tourism and build casinos.

Legalization of marijuana etc. could also help in this area...

Or perhaps look to the far future , hire a bunch of engineers and designers from the likes of Toyota etc, and create a semi state owned company that produces a new cost effective electric or hybrid car. The car could be Irish designed and Irish produced. All manufacturing could be done here, including parts. Obviously this would cost billions and billions in investment hence I mean long term future.

We need homegrown manufacturing industry here, simple as. We have nothing solid, we hop from light industry to light industry boasting about the fact that Google are coming here creating a handful of jobs.

We need to try cut our dependence on Foreign investment and create our industry.

I don't see how we can do this without throwing the baby out with the bathwater though. To have a cost base low enough to be able to produce these cars at a price-level which the market would accept for them we'd be competing directly with the likes of Korea and China. In order to to that, we'd need to be paying the workers of this car company peanuts and would create a huge social equality issues when we live in a country where we can attract high-paying jobs for those with the capacity to work in finance, fund-management, software development etc.

Cookie_Monster

remove automation and other advanced technology from industry and you'll ahve hundred of thousands of low cost jobs. Obviously costs would skyrocket and time to get anything done would too.

A very simple example would be the removal of the auto till in shops, meaning you could employ 1 or 2 more people on tills again. But these companies would have no interest in such.

The biggest labour industries of the past like agriculture only require 1 or 2 people and machinery these days. A combine harvester can do in a day what it took 20 men to do in a week way back when, but can you honestly see us going back to that just for jobs?

zig

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

remove automation and other advanced technology from industry and you'll ahve hundred of thousands of low cost jobs. Obviously costs would skyrocket and time to get anything done would too.

A very simple example would be the removal of the auto till in shops, meaning you could employ 1 or 2 more people on tills again. But these companies would have no interest in such.

The biggest labour industries of the past like agriculture only require 1 or 2 people and machinery these days. A combine harvester can do in a day what it took 20 men to do in a week way back when, but can you honestly see us going back to that just for jobs?

Thats insanity, you cant just create jobs from thin air, basically forcing companies all over the country to take on more staff.
We'd have nothing left in the country if we did.

kuntboy

Maybe we should just get used to having a vast underclass of permanently unemployed.

Cookie_Monster

zig wrote: »

Thats insanity, you cant just create jobs from thin air, basically forcing companies all over the country to take on more staff.
We'd have nothing left in the country if we did.

yes, I know its insanely impractical, was just giving the example of how much technology has made people redundant over the decades

RichardAnd

A good thread point and one I've come to believe in. We're never going to see meaningful employment created through the "smart economy" because we just can't compete with other countries in that regard. It's not just our poor, antiquated system of education, places like India and China just seem to have better work ethics and, to be quite honest, a better efficacy to improve themselves and to master what they work at.

Thus, the concept that Ireland can become some sort of global center of knowledge, science and technology is absurd. There will always be a science and technology base here but paddy the plumber and joey the bricky are not going to become C++ programmers through a 6 month FAS course.

In short, we need masses of Joe Anybody jobs before we see a real drop in the unemployment numbers.

jimmycrackcorm

We need an economic policy that encourages entrepreneurship through self-employment. At present the policy is completely the opposite, e.g. if you start up a business and it fails you cannot even claim any welfare benefits.

Low skilled people aren't necessarily lacking an ability to create their own business endeavours. I think back to an episode of the Irish Dragons Den where a guy produced a cosmetic plastic surround for a toilet pipe. Better doing something like that than sitting on the dole....

cavedave

Sleepy

What labour intensive industries can we seek to compete in at a global level? Not everyone can be trained to be a software developer, bio-chemist etc.

But maybe more of us could be if there was not such an anti intellectual environment in Ireland.

Take television for example

Stargazing live on the BBC is live astronomy (with mainly Irish presenters)
On Icelandic television they have live chess games.
The best RTE does for the knowledge economy is Spooks and Specters

It may be a problem of supply or demand but either way other then some nature documentaries on network 2 I can think of no program that could potentially encourage science or engineering education on Irish television.

TV is just one example. But you can look at any section of Irish life and see it is an intellectual wasteland. You cannot be ok with that and also demand a knowledge economy

mike65

Develop or re develop the tourist sector, a huge employer when doing well. Make Ireland a variable destination for more than misty eyed tourists and golfers.

Manach

Assets Ireland does have is it is English speaking and in a favourable timezone to the US/UK.
Tech-support / call centres would seem to favour such locations.

RichardAnd

cavedave wrote: »

But maybe more of us could be if there was not such an anti intellectual environment in Ireland.

Take television for example

Stargazing live on the BBC is live astronomy (with mainly Irish presenters)
On Icelandic television they have live chess games.
The best RTE does for the knowledge economy is Spooks and Specters

It may be a problem of supply or demand but either way other then some nature documentaries on network 2 I can think of no program that could potentially encourage science or engineering education on Irish television.

TV is just one example. But you can look at any section of Irish life and see it is an intellectual wasteland. You cannot be ok with that and also demand a knowledge economy

+1 and +2 whilst I'm at it.

In this country, people are simply not encouraged to think. I had the misfortune to recently stumble upon "ireland's got talent" and I had to cringe. People's heads are so full of this nonsense (along with expose, X-factor, Family Guy and all that other tripe) that they simple don't know how to think properly anymore.

And even when people do turn off the idiot box, it's often only to pick up some glossy rag or one of those pop culture "novels" like Twilight or what have you. And then there's the music...

I think if Irish people spent less time reading about Jordan or Jedward and instead read some Tolstoy or listened to some Vivaldi, well I don't think it's too bold to suggest we would not be in the dire situation we are in.

It's a shame really. There is more information available these days than ever before and literacy it more ubiquitous than ever it has been yet, it seems all of this is going to waste .

cavedave

RichardAnd

In this country, people are simply not encouraged to think. I had the misfortune to recently stumble upon "ireland's got talent" and I had to cringe. People's heads are so full of this nonsense (along with expose, X-factor, Family Guy and all that other tripe) that they simple don't know how to think properly anymore.

And even when people do turn off the idiot box, it's often only to pick up some glossy rag or one of those pop culture "novels" like Twilight or what have you. And then there's the music...

I think if Irish people spent less time reading about Jordan or Jedward and instead read some Tolstoy or listened to some Vivaldi, well I don't think it's too bold to suggest we would not be in the dire situation we are in.

It's a shame really. There is more information available these days than ever before and literacy it more ubiquitous than ever it has been yet, it seems all of this is going to waste .

I don't want to derail the thread. And I dont want to get to high and mighty. If someone wants to watch all Ireland talent show and read about Jordan in OK thats their business.

I just want to make the point that you cannot demand knowledge save you while discouraging knowledge. Not that anyone on this thread is doing that but it is a common attitude.

the citizens launch a mob attack against the town's scientific institutions, and Moe decides to destroy the skeleton of a woolly mammoth at the Springfield Natural History Museum, yelling "Take that, science!" Predictably, the tusk falls off, crushing him. "Oof, I'm paralyzed," observes Moe. "I only hope medical science can cure me."

Liam Byrne

I think even the terminology in this thread shows an odd bias.

Manual labour jobs aren't necessarily "low skilled"; the guy who built and plastered a dead-straight wall outside my house was far more skilled than any politician or banker that I've seen in the last 10 years.

Sleepy

kuntboy wrote: »

Maybe we should just get used to having a vast underclass of permanently unemployed.

This is exactly what I'm afraid of tbh.

As Cookie Monster points out, technology has rendered so many unskilled positions redundant in the "developed world" and virtually anything related to manufacture has moved to the "developing" economies where cost-bases are lower.

jimmycrackcorm, again, I'm all for encouraging entrepeneurialism but how much capacity has it got for mass employment or genuine job-creation? That lad on Dragons Den pushing the plastic surround for a toilet pipe might create a handful of jobs in sales and admin here if the idea takes off, but you can guarantee, manufacture will be out-sourced.

Education is the closest thing to a silver bullet we have but it'll take at least a generation to both overhaul it enough and to get the throughput to get the benefits out of it.

The Tourist sector is the best suggestion I've read so far in this thread but how effectively can we compete in this area given our high costs and poor weather. We've got plenty of tourist infrastructure but we're an expensive little island to visit.

Sleepy

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I think even the terminology in this thread shows an odd bias.

Manual labour jobs aren't necessarily "low skilled"; the guy who built and plastered a dead-straight wall outside my house was far more skilled than any politician or banker that I've seen in the last 10 years.

It's a shame we can't export walls...

Marcin_diy

Hi All just my point of view In Ireland most of things you can buy are original high cost brands If your car is broken majority will go to VW, OPEL, Toyota etc dealer to buy part. In Country where I'm originally from original parts are for rich people. All other buy cheaper replacement parts. - each thing have up to 10 cheaper alternatives. Things like fuel filters, fluids, etc don't need to be original - Maybe people in Ireland should stop sending money to foreign motor industries and start manufacturing replacement parts? if you go to b@Q , woodies, etc you will find all tools ( I'm not telling about power tools) like hammers, screws etc are or UK, or Stanley. Where is Irish Stuff? Other story is that some sellers are trying to get a profit on high prices for everything - and many people are ordering goods from uk, and other european countries.

The_Honeybadger

OP raises a good point, and there have been some excellent contributions so far. I know unemployed people who fall into this category who have virtually given up on working in the near future. As previously said, you cannot train a brickie to become an I.T. whizz overnight. And if you try to start a business and fail, you are hung out to dry with no welfare net (a ludicrous situation IMO).

One area with the potential to create low paid jobs is tourism, we have a reputation abroad as being an expensive place to visit, things have improved but we still need to get costs down. The cost of eating out here for example is very high, an 8.99 supermarket bottle of wine in a restaurant here can cost over 20 euro, not on IMO. But to be fair businesses are grapling with high rents, high wages and energy costs, council charges etc. Much of this is government controlled lets hope the next government starts to deal with this. We have a huge diaspora, many of whom would like to visit this country I am sure, however they won't do that if they see us as a place where they will be ripped off. Adventure tourism could be a big contributor in future as we have some of the best mountains, beaches etc in Europe, surfers and mountaineers are not really that concerned with the weather, I know a mountaineer who relishes challenging weather.

Agriculture is also going to be important and with the right ideas plenty of production, processing and other jobs can be created as well as more highly paid management positions.

Alot of this depends on getting our cost down though, a process which will be fiercely resisted by many. How we will get 300,000 people back to work though? That is probably impossible without enormous stimulus and investment in training, which is very unlikely given we are broke.

mike65

The Chinese can turn out billions of screws, nut and bolts for half nothing, Ireland simply cannot compete in such areas.

feicim

Sleepy wrote: »

Given that most of the jobs we've lost over the last 2 years have been in the construction, retail and manufacturing sectors we have a major problem that doesn't seem to be being addressed from what I can see.

The jobs we're creating (largely through the IDA and Enterprise Ireland) are, in the main, technical positions involving IT or Pharmaceuticals. While some lower-skilled administerial and maintenance positions will no-doubt be created alongside these, the bulk of the jobs we can win at present are not ones the vast majority of the live register can fill or, even more depressingly, be re-trained to fill.

The industries that most of our live register have come from aren't exactly the most productive for an economy either: selling things to each other and building houses to sell to each other.

Without much in the way of natural resources and with a cost of living that effectively rules out our being able to compete in the manufacturing industries a global economy how can we ever hope to get unemployment back down to a low level?

What labour intensive industries can we seek to compete in at a global level? Not everyone can be trained to be a software developer, bio-chemist etc.

The reality of globalisation is.. that workers in more developed western countries will have to move to where the jobs are, not the other way around.

Or 10-15% unemployment could be a permanent feature of the Irish economy with spending/taxes being adjusted to suit this.

Lets face it, 400,000 jobs are not coming to Ireland, is 100,000 even possible/realistic given the lack of ideas/action/options Ireland has?

The world is changing and instead of desperately trying to change things back to how they were before, it might be more beneficial to embrace the new realities and make the appropriate choices. (emigration).

The celtic tiger ireland is dead, and there is no going back to 60's/70's Ireland as employment patterns have changed since then. The times ahead are going to be like nothing seen before, and will have their own unique challenges.

This is something I think our politicians don't have the capability or resources to deal with in a manner that will be acceptable to the citizens of Ireland (with their current expectations).

I don't think there will be enough low skilled jobs provided in the future to make any tangible difference. And the vast majority of the unemployed will probably remain unemployed, their best bet would be to emigrate.

I don't like being pessimistic but I haven't seen any action taken within this country to make me believe an alternative scenario is possible.

Grassroots_FF

Sleepy wrote: »

Given that most of the jobs we've lost over the last 2 years have been in the construction, retail and manufacturing sectors we have a major problem that doesn't seem to be being addressed from what I can see.

The jobs we're creating (largely through the IDA and Enterprise Ireland) are, in the main, technical positions involving IT or Pharmaceuticals. While some lower-skilled administerial and maintenance positions will no-doubt be created alongside these, the bulk of the jobs we can win at present are not ones the vast majority of the live register can fill or, even more depressingly, be re-trained to fill.

The industries that most of our live register have come from aren't exactly the most productive for an economy either: selling things to each other and building houses to sell to each other.

Without much in the way of natural resources and with a cost of living that effectively rules out our being able to compete in the manufacturing industries a global economy how can we ever hope to get unemployment back down to a low level?

What labour intensive industries can we seek to compete in at a global level? Not everyone can be trained to be a software developer, bio-chemist etc.

It's all about being more competitive. Lower wages and other costs for employers and they'll create more jobs.

feicim

Marcin_diy wrote: »

Where is Irish Stuff? Other story is that some sellers are trying to get a profit on high prices for everything - and many people are ordering goods from uk, and other european countries.

+1.

This week I was quoted 280 for a boiler part from an Irish plumbing suppliers.

The exact same part was available from the uk for €135 (including vat, sterling conversion and next day delivery:eek:)

Irish companies are ripping people off, and many people have copped on to this.

These irish companies are eventually going to end up out of business if they keep ripping people off, in an age where practically everyone has the internet and can find a supplier in the EU or elsewhere for a fraction of the cost.

Sleepy

Grassroots_FF wrote: »

It's all about being more competitive. Lower wages and other costs for employers and they'll create more jobs.

Make wages low enough to compete with the developing world?

Can't see that happening somehow...

Pete_Cavan

zig wrote: »

perhaps we must broaden our horizons out of desperation, like promote gambling tourism and build casinos. Or perhaps look to the far future , hire a bunch of engineers and designers from the likes of Toyota etc, and create a semi state owned company that produces a new cost effective electric or hybrid car. The car could be Irish designed and Irish produced. All manufacturing could be done here, including parts. Obviously this would cost billions and billions in investment hence I mean long term future.

Sorry for such a long post but couldnt leave any of it out. It is worth the read I assure you.

I very much doubt electric cars will every catch on. Battery technology has developed very slowly and batteries use rare earth metals which have a limited supply and are becoming very expensive because China has most of the planets reserves of these and wants to keep them for her own production. Also energy supplies are becoming a worry for most countries and unless nuclear fusion is cracked soon I dont think the world would be able to produce enough electricity to power everything it is all ready powering plus emerging economies plus all the energy that would be needed to run all the electric cars. Certainly Ireland would not be able to produce enough energy to power her economy if all the cars here also relied on the national grid.

Despite all the advances in technology that have been seen in the past 150 years, all modern cars still use the basic principle of the internal combustion engine, first developed in the mid 1800's, to propel them. Why has this, fairly simple technology, survived so long in the face of huge scientific breakthroughs? Answer: because it is the best. I believe the next generation of cars will continue to use this principle, but will be powered by biofuels. This should certainly be the case for Ireland and we should get ahead of the pack now, even if the rest of the world doesnt follow.

Ireland has a long tradition of agriculture and we continue to rank among the top countries in the world in terms of agriculture. It makes sense for us to exploit this and grow our own fuel. We could be self-sufficient in this respect. It does not need to take land from food production because the bio-crops could be genetically modified to grow anywhere we cant grow food (people dont like eating GM foods but your car wont mind). We also spent a lot on farm subsidies, growing fuel would see unproductive farms become productive and they would not have to rely on subsidies, saving the government a fortune. Electric cars would be produced oversees where manufacturing costs are lower and it is likely we would have to import some of the electricity needed because we would not be able to produce enough ourselves.

It would be a lot cheaper to set up than electric cars, we have all the petrol stations, pumps, etc. in place already, just fill the tanks with bio-diesel instead of normal diesel. The infrastructure for electric cars would cost a fortune, we would have to build many new power stations in order to produce the energy as well as a network of high capacity power lines covering the entire country. I have no idea how much extra electrictiy we would need but when you think of all the cars on our roads and imagine all of these charging at the mains, Im sure you would easily double our energy demand.

Even if the rest of the world goes down the electric car route, this island could use biofuels with no ill effects on our economy. Irish hauliers could use electric vehicles for travelling overseas and we just need to have charge points at service stations for them. This would also accommodate hauliers driving from the continent as well as tourists coming here. This would be possible because with only HGVs and a few tourist cars recharging their batteries it is not putting a huge strain on our energy production. Most of these would charge up at night to avail of cheap energy when demand is low meaning we dont need to increase energy production capacity.

We could create many jobs in the agriculture sector growing the crops, technical jobs processing the crop into fuel, as well as jobs in distributing and selling the final product. If everyone else was using electric cars it may be even better for us because then we could produce the engines for the cars here as we would have no rivals (just buy in chassis etc. for electric cars from abroad and install Irish made engines). This gives us an entirely new indigenous industry in a sector where we are already strong and we would not have to fear competition from abroad.

Energy costs are going to continue to rise and the added pressure of powering every car on the planet would push the costs up further. Even if the cost per driving 1km in an electric car is less than driving 1km in a biofuel car, it would still be a better option for this country because all the money would be staying in the country. The fuel is produced here with no reliance on imports and everyone employed producing the fuel spends there money here so more money circulating in our economy, not leaving the country. If needed the government could charge 0% tax on Irish produced biodiesel to make it cheaper. It would be worth it because it would be employing many thousands of people and all the money is staying in the country so they will receive more tax indirectly than by direct taxes on a product produced abroad.

Rubik.

Sleepy wrote: »

It's a shame we can't export walls...

But we can and will export the wall makers. Emigration is going to be the only real option for a lot of people. When announcing the four year plan, Brian Cowen depressingly tried to make a projected figure of a 10% unemployment rate at the end of those four years sound like a positive. Leaving aside the fact that FF are pretty hopeless at making economic predictions, even if unemployment is lowered to 10% that is still a very high rate.

RichardAnd

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I think even the terminology in this thread shows an odd bias.

Manual labour jobs aren't necessarily "low skilled"; the guy who built and plastered a dead-straight wall outside my house was far more skilled than any politician or banker that I've seen in the last 10 years.

A plasterer isn't a low skilled job, you are correct. When I talk about low skilled jobs I mean office administration, cashier etc. You're right though, Irish society is an incredibly bias one.

dan_d

RichardAnd wrote: »

+1 and +2 whilst I'm at it.

And even when people do turn off the idiot box, it's often only to pick up some glossy rag or one of those pop culture "novels" like Twilight or what have you. And then there's the music...

I think if Irish people spent less time reading about Jordan or Jedward and instead read some Tolstoy or listened to some Vivaldi, well I don't think it's too bold to suggest we would not be in the dire situation we are in.
.

Owch!

I mix my Twilights, with Jane Austen and Henry James, my Vivaldi and Schuberts with my ...well, ok, not Jedward, but I've been known to enjoy Westlife and Take That. (guilty pleasure!). As someone who is extremely proficient classically on one instrument, and learning rapidly on another, and who read anything I could lay my hands on from an early age.....I take exception to that remark! Our house has a seriously eclectic and large collection of books, and an extremely wide selection of classical music resides beside the CD player.Which is odd in the house of two late 20 something's, I suppose.

However - I have to agree to an extent. I did engineering and went onto a building site for the last number of years. I would never ever suggest to anyone there that I played 2 instruments, let alone enjoyed reading.Knowledge?? What??? You'd nearly be sneered at for trying to make yourself better educated.My favourite line that got parroted at me so many times "I didn't have to go to college to learn that." (said with an air of triumph).

However, the same people were saying to me early this year, when it became obvious that redundancy was coming our way..."sure you'll be ok, you've got an education".

Luckily, I have managed to find another job, but I know many who "have an education" and have not managed.

I know this is not directly related to the thread, nor do I have any real suggestions for providing low-skilled jobs. I will say though, that there are many skilled tradesmen and craftsmen out there, jobless...and equally, there are as many lads out there who headed into a trade straight out of school because it was the "easy" option to make loads of money from. Now I know full well that those trades aren't "easy"...I know what's involved in them. But for most lads, it was instant gratification. Money for cars, alcohol, clothes and holidays, all to be blown as fast as possible with every paycheck.

Many of these are now unemployed, and I wonder would it be possible to get them back into education. The problem is less that we've no work for these people and more that we are over-saturated with them...ie, we have a higher proportion of people who headed into trades, because of the boom, than most normal economies have. The thing is though, we have a serious problem with supplying jobs for our grads.....how can we provide low-skilled jobs, when we can't supply jobs for the people we've pumped money into educating for the last few years?

Any kind of job creation should promote creation in so-called low-skilled job...to me, those are shop assistants, waitresses, call centres, etc.As companies grow and profit, they require the services of these things, the local shops get busier, people go for lunch in local restaurants, etc.

Maybe we should concentrate harder on developing the higher skilled jobs, and then the low skilled, rather than the other way around??

Liam Byrne

Sleepy wrote: »

It's a shame we can't export walls...

An even bigger shame that we can't manufacture cars, TVs and a million other things that people buy that send money outside the country.

Mind you, FF are on course for exporting people......any chance we could get paid a transfer fee ?

newmug

Sleepy wrote: »

It's a shame we can't export walls...

There's an air of snobbery throughout some of this thread, and society as a whole. "Low skilled" jobs:rolleyes: As opposed to what, being an area manager for some outlet, or being able to perform brain surgery?

That sense of entitlement and one-up-man-ship has to go. Its what creates "class" divides, and keeps certain jobs low paid. IMO toilet cleaners, waiting staff and factory workers (like me) should get equal pay to guards and teachers. They're essential jobs. If you suit academic work, try to become a teacher, if you suit night hours and repetitive numbers, aim for work in a factory etc. When the Irish people as a whole swallow the fact that life is not a bunch of roses, and we all have to make sacrifices to survive, we'll become a more productive nation straight away. TBH, its just this generation who think like that. This is a new phenomenon.

Marcin_diy wrote: »

Hi All just my point of view In Ireland most of things you can buy are original high cost brands If your car is broken majority will go to VW, OPEL, Toyota etc dealer to buy part. ......................... and many people are ordering goods from uk, and other european countries.

Thats all fine and well, but there's only 4 million of us. There's bigger TOWNS in some other countries.

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Sorry for such a long post but couldnt leave any of it out. It is worth the read I assure you.

Ireland has a long tradition of agriculture and we continue to rank among the top countries in the world in terms of agriculture. It makes sense for us to exploit this and grow our own fuel. We could be self-sufficient in this respect. It does not need to take land from food production because the bio-crops could be genetically modified to grow anywhere we cant grow food (people dont like eating GM foods but your car wont mind). We also spent a lot on farm subsidies, growing fuel would see unproductive farms become productive and they would not have to rely on subsidies, saving the government a fortune. Electric cars would be produced oversees where manufacturing costs are lower and it is likely we would have to import some of the electricity needed because we would not be able to produce enough ourselves.

There's no such thing as an unproductive farm in Ireland. They're all at breaking point. Aswell, the amount of land it takes to grow enough bio-fuel to fill ONE tank of diesel for your average jeep would feed a family for a year. So it just wouldn't be worth it.

Sesshoumaru

I started a thread over in economics similar to this one

http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056132510

With the increasing use of robotics I see us losing more low skill jobs, not increasing them. I can already walk into Tesco or B&Q and purchase goods without ever having to deal with a human. We've already seen manufacturing jobs going to China because labour is cheaper there, it's only logical that employers in the future switch more to robots as they become cheaper and more useful.

Senna

Labour costs and operation costs are too high in Ireland to attract any mass production industries.
We'll get IT, services and medical etc, but there is nothing being done to bring down the cost of doing business in this country.

kyote00

Another area of the economy that does not appear to be competitive (compared to other EU states) is the professional services....

For example:
Dentist prices in ireland have not reduced - in fact my local dentist has increased prices by about 20-30% over the last two years...

Same story for a consultant doctor my daughter attends - increased visit price from €150 to €175...

One point missed out in the threads above about the so called "knowledge economy" is that if we can create some number of high tech companies (needing X high tech skilled jobs) then there is a added bonus of Y lower tech jobs to the local economy to service the higher tech company....not sure what the ratio of X to Y is ....

That said, the tourism, agri and food industries can also expand if we had the balls to go for it....

Pete_Cavan

newmug wrote: »

There's no such thing as an unproductive farm in Ireland. They're all at breaking point. Aswell, the amount of land it takes to grow enough bio-fuel to fill ONE tank of diesel for your average jeep would feed a family for a year. So it just wouldn't be worth it.

If there is no such thing as an unproductive farm in Ireland then there would be no problems with scrapping Single Farm Payment and other subsidies.

As I said, biofuel crops are not for human consumption so we can genetically modified the hell out of them. They can be set to grow quicker and be harvested a number of times a year, so one field produces a lot more than it otherwise would. Also cars in the future will have to be a lot more fuel efficient, we are coming to the end of the era of the gas guzzling SUVs because they are not sustainable. Hybrid vehicles could be adapted to use biofuels more efficiently, R&D for this is another area where we can create jobs.

Im not saying it definitely is worth it but if we are going to create long term jobs in this country we should be exploiting what we are already good at. That means agriculture and not low cost manufacturing. As I said before, we would be growing, processing and selling the fuel here so all the money stays in our economy. Our agri industry is one of the most advanced in the world so we would not have to fear other countries being able to produce the same product, transporting it and selling it here for cheaper than we can produce it and sell it ourselves. Even if the rest of the world goes down a different route we could have 0% tax on our home grown fuel in order to maintain that industry here. I would normally be opposed to protectionism but it would work for us here because we would be protecting an industry which other countries can not compete with us on a like for like basis anyway. We are protecting the jobs from being loss to alternatives not to lower cost production so consumers would not loss out because our economy is so much stronger because of it.

waxon-waxoff

Many Irish people seen themselves as being above low-skilled labour despite no qualifications or experience to back up their lofty opinion of themselves. Thats why there is so many non-Irish working in retail, security and services sectors here. Lets not foget there was around 200k on the dole during the boom years despite employee shortages. Creating basic low-skilled jobs would have limited impact on reducing unemployed figures as the jobs would be filled by immigrants willing to work for low wages by our standards. There was a big fuss about Dell closing in Limerick a few years back but the majority of workers there were from overseas at the time it closed. Thats despite Limerick being an unemployment blackspot. With dole, housing and health benefits being so generous it makes no sense to take a low paid job. The next government need to be brave and tackle this.

mikemac

The days of lads quitting school at 16 and 17 and pulling over 600 euro a week laboring are long gone. And many of these were cash in hand jobs.
Thousands did this, tens of thousands? My brother did anyway.

But I'd agree with others, a tradesman isn't a low skilled job and it's more then laboring.

I agree with kyote00

That said, the tourism, agri and food industries can also expand if we had the balls to go for it....

The story of Glenisk in Offaly as an example. Small family owned dairy, got into organic products, now they have a full range and in ever Tesco and Spar in the country. Danone, a corporate giant bought shares

There are success stories out there in Ireland and it can be done again

sligopark

Grassroots_FF wrote: »

It's all about being more competitive. Lower wages and other costs for employers and they'll create more jobs.

typical FF response - less money for the serfs and more money for us - except when Brian Lenihan's father suggested our children getting the boats

shame on you

Permabear

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newmug

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

If there is no such thing as an unproductive farm in Ireland then there would be no problems with scrapping Single Farm Payment and other subsidies.

Irish farms are overproducing to the point of making a loss, and have been for decades. Hence the need for subsidies.

Take that away, and you'll add another 100,000 to the dole queue, and see our land going to waste.

You have the right entrepreneurial spirit about biofuel, but its just not worth it. The acreage needed to grow the required quantities of oilseed-rape is the problem, not how often its harvested or how super-duper genetically engineered it is. As it is, there isn't enough land to feed every citizen in Ireland should the euro collapse. We only have enough land to feed 1 million people, and there are currently 4.5 million of us. Feck creating mickey-mouse jobs, maybe a bit of sensible population control is where we should be looking long-term.

PrincessLola

newmug wrote: »

There's an air of snobbery throughout some of this thread, and society as a whole. "Low skilled" jobs:rolleyes: As opposed to what, being an area manager for some outlet, or being able to perform brain surgery?

That sense of entitlement and one-up-man-ship has to go. Its what creates "class" divides, and keeps certain jobs low paid. IMO toilet cleaners, waiting staff and factory workers (like me) should get equal pay to guards and teachers. They're essential jobs. If you suit academic work, try to become a teacher, if you suit night hours and repetitive numbers, aim for work in a factory etc. When the Irish people as a whole swallow the fact that life is not a bunch of roses, and we all have to make sacrifices to survive, we'll become a more productive nation straight away. TBH, its just this generation who think like that. This is a new phenomenon.

What? Are you suggesting we lower teacher and guard's pay to cleaner levels or raise a cleaner's pay to teacher levels? No, just no.

newmug

PrincessLola wrote: »

What? Are you suggesting we lower teacher and guard's pay to cleaner levels or raise a cleaner's pay to teacher levels? No, just no.

No what, you wont lower yourself to do some work unless your pwetty likkle fingees dont get dirty?

Its attitudes like that that have us where we are. Lazy, snobbish, I'm-too-good-for-that-job crap. We all need to muck in and do the necessary sh1tty jobs and stop this mollycoddled, self righteous bull****.

What I'm suggesting, is that we need to get real about pay and productivity. We need to balance the fairness of wages across the board, in all jobs. People should do the jobs they have to, not just greedily go for the money. I have a degree and work my arse off in a factory, I know cleaners who work here from Latvia, Poland, Belarus, who have masters degrees in accountancy, history, electronics, you name it, and most have years of experience in their field, yet here they are getting paid to clean up **** from other peoples toilets because Irish people wont do it. THATS whats wrong with our country.

And why the hell should some dope who barely scraped through the leaving cert get a high paying guaranteed job just because daddy is the local superintendent? To use your words Princesslola, no - just no. The "perk" of any GUARANTEED job should be just that, that its guaranteed! All other aspects of any such jobs, including wages, should be comparable to other, equally necessary jobs. The same goes for teaching, the perks are that its indoors, devoid of physical labour, it has great holidays, and its guaranteed. So less of the let-them-eat-cake attitude, we all need to get real with our expectations, and muck in to get the country up off its knees and back on its feet again!

ei.sdraob

Low Skilled Jobs - How can we provide them?

@OP your question fails at the first hurdle

it is not the job of the state to provide jobs, and any politician that promises jobs is a bull****ter.

No if the government wants more jobs (or loose less for that matter) then:
* lower taxes
* remove red tape
* stop unfair subsidies of various sectors
* break up monopolies
* provide infrastructure
* setup venture capital funds


Basically reduce the costs imposed by state beuracracy on businesses and provide a fertile ground for companies to take root and grow. For example reading the local paper I see an article about small businesses closing due to high rates, why are the rates so high in first place? why are so rents high when the country has an oversupply of property (hint NAMA)?

We need a government that makes it easier for businesses to do their thing and works behind the scenes, not a government that goes from subsidising construction and leading to a bubble to a government that is now stroking another bubble in "green" tech and so on. The job of a government is to govern not to create a centrally planned and directed economy that leads to waste and worse disaster (as we seen).

Sand

The government doesnt need to find jobs for people. All it needs to do is create the conditions required for successful indigenous business. The jobs will take care of themselves at that point.

Germany runs an excellent export industry despite Chinese competition making it somehow impossible for a rich european state to do so. Productivity, innovation, brand awareness, specialisation, political and economic stability: these are all strong potential advantages for Irish enterprises. Its not all about workers wages. Though, yes, Paddy wont be able to pay himself world class wages for mickey mouse performances.

PrincessLola

newmug wrote: »

No what, you wont lower yourself to do some work unless your pwetty likkle fingees dont get dirty?

Its attitudes like that that have us where we are. Lazy, snobbish, I'm-too-good-for-that-job crap. We all need to muck in and do the necessary sh1tty jobs and stop this mollycoddled, self righteous bull****.

What I'm suggesting, is that we need to get real about pay and productivity. We need to balance the fairness of wages across the board, in all jobs. People should do the jobs they have to, not just greedily go for the money. I have a degree and work my arse off in a factory, I know cleaners who work here from Latvia, Poland, Belarus, who have masters degrees in accountancy, history, electronics, you name it, and most have years of experience in their field, yet here they are getting paid to clean up **** from other peoples toilets because Irish people wont do it. THATS whats wrong with our country.

And why the hell should some dope who barely scraped through the leaving cert get a high paying guaranteed job just because daddy is the local superintendent? To use your words Princesslola, no - just no. The "perk" of any GUARANTEED job should be just that, that its guaranteed! All other aspects of any such jobs, including wages, should be comparable to other, equally necessary jobs. The same goes for teaching, the perks are that its indoors, devoid of physical labour, it has great holidays, and its guaranteed. So less of the let-them-eat-cake attitude, we all need to get real with our expectations, and muck in to get the country up off its knees and back on its feet again!

Its not snobbishness its just common sense. i'm sorry your so bitter about your job but is it wrong that there are people who are ambitious want something more out of life? Its not all about money either its aspiration and a will to better yourself, without it there would be no computer that your typing on right now. I'm not insulting low skilled work but I just don't think it should be paid as well as work that requires years of study and experience, and this comes from someone who has spent a couple of years working as a cashier! Whatever just move to a communist country if you want everyone paid the same.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

later12

donegalfella wrote: »

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I couldn't agree more with these points to be honest. I attended school in Ireland being constantly reminded of this 'world class educational system' that apparently I was a beneficiary of, and when I began university outside of Ireland I realised how incorrect that was. I studied in the UK and found myself far, far behind my British, Asian and US classmates in Mathematical skills, particularly. The same could have been said for related technical skills. And that was with a very good leaving certificate result.
In my opinion, all of the above points are related. Government and administration and schools do not push students hard enough, because they do not expect more than the status quo - though they will happily point to high achievers, when they do emerge, as evidence of the merits of an Irish education. It's a joke.

ei.sdraob

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Yes I find these plans amusing, very Soviet like

"comrades our next 5 year plan calls for 10000 tractors"
"comrades we must import enough windmills from China (who ignore the carbon taxation madness while sharing same planet as us and ironically care more about employment) in order to meet our planned 30% CO2 reduction target" :P

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I think the government is a good reflection of the population who voted them in tbh, many of time have I experienced this attitude here on forum...

RichardAnd

later10 wrote: »

I couldn't agree more with these points to be honest. I attended school in Ireland being constantly reminded of this 'world class educational system' that apparently I was a beneficiary of, and when I began university outside of Ireland I realised how incorrect that was. I studied in the UK and found myself far, far behind my British, Asian and US classmates in Mathematical skills, particularly. The same could have been said for related technical skills. And that was with a very good leaving certificate result.
In my opinion, all of the above points are related. Government and administration and schools do not push students hard enough, because they do not expect more than the status quo - though they will happily point to high achievers, when they do emerge, as evidence of the merits of an Irish education. It's a joke.

People who achieve in the Irish education system are not necessarily achievers in the truest sense of the word. I know people who have gotten 550+ points in the leaving cert who are as useful as a blunt scissors. You see, I would add to what donegalfella said by noting that the system in our schools and most colleges doesn't reward innovation and intuition (regardless of how often these words get used) but rather, rewards following the rules. Cram, memorise off sheets upon sheets of information, regurgitate it in the exam and you're on your way to a first class honours. Understanding is secondary.

As an example of this, one of my cousins is considered to be one of the best piano players in the country for her age. In school, she did woefully bad and was constantly put down yet she is clearly a very intelligent person with a very special gift.

Of course, none of this will ever change though

later12

RichardAnd wrote: »

Cram, memorise off sheets upon sheets of information, regurgitate it in the exam and you're on your way to a first class honours. Understanding is secondary.

While this is generally true, I don't think it is true of everything. I understand that Junior Certificate science has a fairly creditable syllabus as well as, from personal experience, leaving certificate Chemistry and Physics. I have seen Chemistry and Physics textbooks from the 80s, or what passed as textbooks, and they were far more focused on rote learning than is evident today.

Unfortunately, in the main, educational syllabi are poorly presented and taught (in my opinion). Examinations are probably poorly marked as well, but that's just opinion too.