2 fines for 1 illegal parking???

PapaSierra

Hi everyone,

2 weeks ago I parked my car at Emmett Place in Cork City under No Parking sign. When I came back to my car I found a notice from city council informing me that "fixed charge penalty notice" will be issued. Ok - I parked where I shouldn't and I have to pay - as simple as that.

Unfortunately few days later I got 2 letters - one from the City Council and one from Gardai both asking me to pay 40 euro for parking a car in contravention of article 35(5) of The Road Traffic Act.

I rang City Council and Gardai and they both told me that I have to pay both fines as they are completely separate from each other. However my understanding is that we have ONE Law and I committed ONE offence so I should pay ONE fine, am I wrong? I don't thing they have any legal grounds on which they can ask me to pay two fixed charges?

Sheeps

why didnt you just park legally like a normal person

subway

Sheeps wrote: »

why didnt you just park legally like a normal person

ffs, first reply is from up on the high horse!

Dermo

subway wrote: »

ffs, first reply is from up on the high sheeps!

ftfy

Sheeps

Convenient tip for not having to pay multiple expensive parking fines: Don't park illegally.

subway

Sheeps wrote: »

Convenient tip for not having to pay multiple expensive parking fines: Don't park illegally.

doubtful that the OP can go back in time, so possibly you are simply trolling him?

Lord Derpington

Not 100% on this but i think they council and the guards are right, two separate departments.
I get your point of view doh, being fined twice for the one thing is very shitty.
Imagine if they could do that for everything wouldn't be happy if i got 2 fines for something like speeding..

Look at it this way, lucky you didn't get clamped aswell

Tazzle

City council won't play ball, never do. You could pay the city fine, keep your receipt and take your chance in court with the second fine. Judge might strike it out if you show him you paid it through the city.

I'm no expert though! I got 2 fines for non-display of tax because I put the tax disc behind an old one and he struck out the second offence and only gave me a smaller fine on the first.

Anan1

PapaSierra wrote: »

However my understanding is that we have ONE Law and I committed ONE offence so I should pay ONE fine, am I wrong? I don't thing they have any legal grounds on which they can ask me to pay two fixed charges?

How long were you parked there? How much time was there between the issue of the two tickets?

keithclancy

Anan1 wrote: »

How long were you parked there? How much time was there between the issue of the two tickets?

I guess the main question would be the grace period allowed between tickets.

Otherwise I could just park somewhere in Dublin airport, feck off on holidays for the price of a parking ticket.

PapaSierra

I parked there for about 2 hours. The difference in time between these two is 1 hour 11 mins.

a_v525

Happened to a friend of mine about 6 mths ago in Ennis

You committed ONE offence and are being fined for the offence by 2 authorities.

He paid one fine (probably the council one, cant remember) & went to meet the original garda who ticketed him in the station & showed him the payment receipt.
The gard said grand so & wrote it down in his notebook & said dont pay the fine & a summons will arrive in about 6 weeks, dont respond to the summons & dont bother show up in court, he'll attend & state that you paid the fine & the case will be dismissed.

My mate thought he was pulling his leg when the garda said "youll get a summons but dont attend the court", but he was serious. Apparently the only way the fine can be dismissed by the Gard after the FPO in Tipp sends you the FixedPenaltyNotice is to go to court.

Hope that helps. Basically chat to the gard you got the fine from, not the person on the desk & explain it to them that youll pay one fine. Simples!

Anan1

PapaSierra wrote: »

I parked there for about 2 hours. The difference in time between these two is 1 hour 11 mins.

TBH, I can't see why you feel hard done by. It sounds fair enough to me.

opti76

PapaSierra wrote: »

Hi everyone,

2 weeks ago I parked my car at Emmett Place in Cork City under No Parking sign. When I came back to my car I found a notice from city council informing me that "fixed charge penalty notice" will be issued. Ok - I parked where I shouldn't and I have to pay - as simple as that.

Unfortunately few days later I got 2 letters - one from the City Council and one from Gardai both asking me to pay 40 euro for parking a car in contravention of article 35(5) of The Road Traffic Act.

I rang City Council and Gardai and they both told me that I have to pay both fines as they are completely separate from each other. However my understanding is that we have ONE Law and I committed ONE offence so I should pay ONE fine, am I wrong? I don't thing they have any legal grounds on which they can ask me to pay two fixed charges?

technically speaking you committed 120 offences .. if you look at your tickets you will se a time .. the offence was committed at that time so for your 120 minutes of parking you committed the illegal parking every minute your were there .. now normally you'd get the one ticket and that woud be it but as you said you got caught by gardai and traffic warden so id say pay one take the other to court and show your receipt for payment .. any normal judge would strike it out .. but thers always that one judge who's a bit eccentric.. so no guarantee.

you could also write a letter to the super in anglesea st explaining the situation to him .. a super has the power to quash the ticket.

PapaSierra

thanks for advise opt76. I already paid the garda fine and I wrote an appeal to CCC. Do you know what are the worst possible consequences if CCC won't accept my appeal and will take it to court and if I will be unlucky enough to meet that "judge who's a bit eccentric"? Can I end up paying few hundred (thousand) euros for all the legal costs and fees?

sarah88

No you won't have to pay hundreds in legel fee's. I know a few people who have been to court for parking fines, uasually the judge either strikes it out if you have a good enough reason, or will make you pay (at most) double the origional fine. There is usually a court house full of people for simular offences.

no1beemerfan

Is €40 worth the hassle/stress of court etc?

If it was me I'd pay both and take it as a lesson learned.

PapaSierra

You're right, it's not worth it but I just don't like the fact that they ask me to pay twice. As I said I committed an offence, I understand that it wasn't right and I agree that I should pay the fine, right? But paying 2 of them without a fight is just against my nature regardless of the amount.

Pkiernan

opti76 wrote: »

technically speaking you committed 120 offences .. if you look at your tickets you will se a time .. the offence was committed at that time so for your 120 minutes of parking you committed the illegal parking every minute your were there ..

No offense, but this is completely untrue.


OP: according to the information you posted, technically you have been punished twice for the same offence - double jeopardy and not allowed under Irish Law.

If you get no joy from writing to the Council, then I wouldn't pursue it any further. It will be less hassle and cheaper to pay it twice.

However, if you have the time and inclination you could go to court and explain to the judge that you have paid your ticket. It is quite possible that he will strike out the second ticket as paid.

Also, call your local Councillor - it is his/her job to help you. Given the amount of expenses councillors charge they should do SOME work for their money.

jhegarty

opti76 wrote: »

technically speaking you committed 120 offences ...

So if someone robs a house , and it takes an hour , they can be charged with 60 counts of burglary ?

Anan1

PapaSierra wrote: »

You're right, it's not worth it but I just don't like the fact that they ask me to pay twice. As I said I committed an offence, I understand that it wasn't right and I agree that I should pay the fine, right? But paying 2 of them without a fight is just against my nature regardless of the amount.

How long do you feel that you should have been permitted to remain parked there before receiving a second ticket?

subway

Anan1 wrote: »

How long do you feel that you should have been permitted to remain parked there before receiving a second ticket?

i dont think the OP went back, saw a ticket and thought "grand, im paid up for the day"
reading his post, he found 1 parking ticket and was given a second in the post.

i would guess that the unticketed offence was given first so the ticketer was not aware the car had already been fined.

either way, i dont know what the law is, but to me one count of bad parking is one count of bad parking. if there were additional fines they should accumulate with the original. if its 2 authorities then it should be a jusrisdictional issue rather than a double fine for the OP.

Anan1

subway wrote: »

i dont think the OP went back, saw a ticket and thought "grand, im paid up for the day"
reading his post, he found 1 parking ticket and was given a second in the post.

Me neither, but I don't see the relevance either way.

subway wrote: »

i would guess that the unticketed offence was given first so the ticketer was not aware the car had already been fined.

I don't know about this, i've seen cars with up to four tickets on the windscreen.

subway wrote: »

either way, i dont know what the law is, but to me one count of bad parking is one count of bad parking. if there were additional fines they should accumulate with the original. if its 2 authorities then it should be a jusrisdictional issue rather than a double fine for the OP.

Again, I don't know. If the OP had parked for 10 minutes and got two tickets then maybe i'd think this was a bit harsh, but two tickets in as many hours sounds fair enough to me.

tommyhaas

Why do the garda bother issuing parking tickets in an area where the council do also? I would have thought their time could be put to better use, and would imagine most Garda would prefer not to be involved in such tedious offences

cosmic

€40 + €40 = €80

Same price as a clamp, cheaper than a tow. Could be worse.

opti76

jhegarty wrote: »

So if someone robs a house , and it takes an hour , they can be charged with 60 counts of burglary ?

no because thats 1 act .. hes oparking illegally at a certain time and place i dont have to prove a time for a burglary i do for a parking ticket .. its time specific ie at a cetain time on a certain date you did....

if i see your car parked at 3pm illegally i can give you a ticket .. if i pass by at 310 and your still there i can give you another ticket i can give you another ticket at 311 as the time of offence has changed...

in reality its not done as its unfair but in legislation it can be done

opti76

PapaSierra wrote: »

thanks for advise opt76. I already paid the garda fine and I wrote an appeal to CCC. Do you know what are the worst possible consequences if CCC won't accept my appeal and will take it to court and if I will be unlucky enough to meet that "judge who's a bit eccentric"? Can I end up paying few hundred (thousand) euros for all the legal costs and fees?

god no in reality a judge wouldnt fone you more than the cost of the original ticket ... as i said bring your receipt to the court and plead ignorance of it being a seperate ticket tell him you thought you paid it etc youl be fine

opti76

Pkiernan wrote: »

No offense, but this is completely untrue.


OP: according to the information you posted, technically you have been punished twice for the same offence - double jeopardy and not allowed under Irish Law.

If you get no joy from writing to the Council, then I wouldn't pursue it any further. It will be less hassle and cheaper to pay it twice.

However, if you have the time and inclination you could go to court and explain to the judge that you have paid your ticket. It is quite possible that he will strike out the second ticket as paid.

Also, call your local Councillor - it is his/her job to help you. Given the amount of expenses councillors charge they should do SOME work for their money.

no offense but your double jepardy explanitonwould only applie if both tickets were for the exact same time as i explained , you commit the offence at a specific time .. 60 minutes in a hour 60 seperate times 60 seperate offences but in reality it wouldnt happen.

subway

Anan1 wrote: »

Me neither, but I don't see the relevance either way.

I don't know about this, i've seen cars with up to four tickets on the windscreen.

the relevance is that it would make it 2 separate crimes.

Anan1 wrote: »

Again, I don't know. If the OP had parked for 10 minutes and got two tickets then maybe i'd think this was a bit harsh, but two tickets in as many hours sounds fair enough to me.

i agree with the rest of your post except the time scales. i think 1 ticket per hour is unfair. i dont know what the law is on the matter (presuming no one else does either since it hasnt been posted) but i would feel 1 ticket per day is a reasonable amount. if any gardai or lawyers are about maybe they can clarify as to how often a car can be ticketed in the same spot.

cormie

Would be interested to see the law on this if anyone can reference it.

Just adding another possibility for the OP, 2 weeks ago today, most places were heavily covered in Snow, I'm not sure about Cork City, but as far as I'm aware, if the road markings weren't visible (this is the case with pay and display anyway with Dublin City Council - from what one of their operators told me), then you can't be committing a parking offence. Sounds a bit unfair, the idea of a fine is to discourage such acts in future, if they believe the rate for this discouragement should be €40, then this should be the rate.

Pkiernan

opti76 wrote: »

no offense but your double jepardy explanitonwould only applie if both tickets were for the exact same time as i explained , you commit the offence at a specific time .. 60 minutes in a hour 60 seperate times 60 seperate offences but in reality it wouldnt happen.

ABSOLUTE and UTTER NONSENSE.

The OP did not commit 60 crimes in 60 minutes, and anyone who thinks he did needs their head examined.

You have no clue as to the law regarding parking tickets. Do yourself a favour and look at any County or City Councils rules on parking and fines for such. You will see NO mention of fines per minute (:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:). In fact you will find no mention of multiple tickets.

The OP was given 2 seperate tickets by 2 seperate agents of the State for 1 offence - not 60 offences.

This is a simple case of you being wrong. Accept it please.

PCPhoto

Pkiernan wrote: »

ABSOLUTE and UTTER NONSENSE.

The OP did not commit 60 crimes in 60 minutes, and anyone who thinks he did needs their head examined.

You have no clue as to the law regarding parking tickets. Do yourself a favour and look at any County or City Councils rules on parking and fines for such. You will see NO mention of fines per minute (:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:). In fact you will find no mention of multiple tickets.

The OP was given 2 seperate tickets by 2 seperate agents of the State for 1 offence - not 60 offences.

This is a simple case of you being wrong. Accept it please.

I agree with Opti .... maybe I should simplify it for you so you can understand what he was trying to say .....

On a technicality (going strictly and taking the law literally)
- if it is a different time it is a different offence, hence the 60 offences in 60mins, it is not done because it is not practical and would be met with huge public and political opposition as well as probably opposition from members themselves as it would lead to endless paperwork.

BUT

I would also like to point out (mainly to Opti but everyone else also) that if people look at the by-laws of Cork City there may be allowances/exceptions to park in the this type of area ....so the technical issue of theoretical 60 offences in 60mins could be a mute point.

opti76

Pkiernan wrote: »

ABSOLUTE and UTTER NONSENSE.

The OP did not commit 60 crimes in 60 minutes, and anyone who thinks he did needs their head examined.

You have no clue as to the law regarding parking tickets. Do yourself a favour and look at any County or City Councils rules on parking and fines for such. You will see NO mention of fines per minute (:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:). In fact you will find no mention of multiple tickets.

The OP was given 2 seperate tickets by 2 seperate agents of the State for 1 offence - not 60 offences.

This is a simple case of you being wrong. Accept it please.

of course he didnt commit a crime.. a parking fine is not a criminal offence

im could stand here and argue with you all day but whats the point .. i said technically .... not realistically .. i dare say id have more knowledge about road traffic legislation than you.. just accept the fact that im right and your wrong. the op has gotten his advice on how to proceed.

galwaytt

opti76 wrote: »

technically speaking you committed 120 offences .. if you look at your tickets you will se a time .. the offence was committed at that time so for your 120 minutes of parking you committed the illegal parking every minute your were there .. .

Pkiernan wrote: »

No offense, but this is completely untrue.


OP: according to the information you posted, technically you have been punished twice for the same offence - double jeopardy and not allowed under Irish Law.

+1

Anan1 wrote: »

How long do you feel that you should have been permitted to remain parked there before receiving a second ticket?

Two answer's to that: 1 - if Statute doesn't specifically put a measure of time on when an offence begins and ends, then it's irrelevant. 2 - from a practical perspective, OP didn't get a 2nd ticket on the day, so your question cannot be answered. It is too, therefore, moot.

Anan1 wrote: »

I don't know about this, i've seen cars with up to four tickets on the windscreen.

I wouldn't pay 3 of those, either

Anan1 wrote: »

Again, I don't know. If the OP had parked for 10 minutes and got two tickets then maybe i'd think this was a bit harsh, but two tickets in as many hours sounds fair enough to me.

make up your mind: there is either a time in law, or not. You can't have it both ways.

opti76 wrote: »

no because thats 1 act .. hes oparking illegally at a certain time and place i dont have to prove a time for a burglary i do for a parking ticket .. its time specific ie at a cetain time on a certain date you did....

if i see your car parked at 3pm illegally i can give you a ticket .. if i pass by at 310 and your still there i can give you another ticket i can give you another ticket at 311 as the time of offence has changed...

in reality its not done as its unfair but in legislation it can be done

Unless you can show me the Statute, frankly, I'm calling BS on that.

cormie wrote: »

Would be interested to see the law on this if anyone can reference it.

I'm with you.

Pkiernan wrote: »

ABSOLUTE and UTTER NONSENSE.

The OP did not commit 60 crimes in 60 minutes, and anyone who thinks he did needs their head examined.

You have no clue as to the law regarding parking tickets. Do yourself a favour and look at any County or City Councils rules on parking and fines for such. You will see NO mention of fines per minute (:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:). In fact you will find no mention of multiple tickets.

The OP was given 2 seperate tickets by 2 seperate agents of the State for 1 offence - not 60 offences.

This is a simple case of you being wrong. Accept it please.

Amen

PCPhoto wrote: »

I agree with Opti .... maybe I should simplify it for you so you can understand what he was trying to say .....

On a technicality (going strictly and taking the law literally)
- if it is a different time it is a different offence, hence the 60 offences in 60mins, it is not done because it is not practical and would be met with huge public and political opposition as well as probably opposition from members themselves as it would lead to endless paperwork.

Proof please. Unless you can specifically show me, in Statute, that mention of time - in minutes as being one measure of offence, then you're making it up.

Anan1

galwaytt wrote: »

Two answer's to that: 1 - if Statute doesn't specifically put a measure of time on when an offence begins and ends, then it's irrelevant.

Have you a source for this?

galwaytt wrote: »

2 - from a practical perspective, OP didn't get a 2nd ticket on the day, so your question cannot be answered.

Nonsense, of course my question can be answered. Although you don't have to - it was, after all, directed towards the OP.;)

galwaytt wrote: »

make up your mind: there is either a time in law, or not. You can't have it both ways.

Cool your jets, tt. I don't know the legal position here but, like many, i'm curious to find out.:)

galwaytt

Anan1 wrote: »

Have you a source for this?
Nonsense, of course my question can be answered. Although you don't have to - it was, after all, directed towards the OP.;)
Cool your jets, tt. I don't know the legal position here but, like many, i'm curious to find out.:)

Source: it's a question.......I'm presuming 'innocence' until proven guilty
Answer/don't answer:.........I would never answer anything that may later used by evidence etc......;) inform, take a position, defend it in confidence.
Jets: I hear ya, not taking a swipe at you, but I'm not a fan of positions where the law is assumed to not be an ass.......in area's such as this.....;)

Anan1

galwaytt wrote: »

Source: it's a question.......I'm presuming 'innocence' until proven guilty

I wouldn't presume anything, as far as I can see we just don't know.

galwaytt wrote: »

Answer/don't answer:.........I would never answer anything that may later used by evidence etc......;) inform, take a position, defend it in confidence.

Isn't it a bit late to be in work mode?;)

galwaytt wrote: »

Jets: I hear ya, not taking a swipe at you, but I'm not a fan of positions where the law is assumed to not be an ass.......in area's such as this.....;)

Fair enough.:) I'd be surprised if one could park on double yellows indefinitely for one offence - do you think (or know) that this is the case?

cormie

Just to put a bit of dark humour into the thread on a similar subject, soon after I moved, the neighbour next door owned a little mini, for the size of it, she couldn't park it at all, she got a few tickets here and there and then I saw a warden writing one up so I called into her to tell her, she looked at him and just said they can do what the f**k they want I don't care, another time I told a warden that the woman isn't well, he still wrote the ticket, then the tickets began to pile up, her permit had expired and there must have been about 10 on the window at one stage. She never ended up paying them though and I think she knew she'd never have to pay them which is why she didn't bother because she died soon after and I think she knew she was about to die so I don't think the council ever got their money

Anan1

If I were terminally ill I think i'd be more into speeding than bad parking.:)

AineK77

I know this is an old post but I was doing a bit of googling regarding my own case, I got ticketed twice by the Gardai for the same offence (parked in a taxi bay on Patrick Street on Sunday before Christmas thought it was a loading bay) paid one got the other one quashed but then got a summons the other day from Cork City Council turns out I was ticketed three times for the same offence in an hour and a half twice by the Gardaí and once by a traffic warden. Thing is I never got the ticket from the traffic warden just got a straight summons, I sent off a letter of appeal to CCC but they advised that as it was too late and court proceedings were already in place - seems like a waste of time to me and I guess I will just have to go to court in December and appeal it but is there any other way of appealing this??? And before anyone comes back like they did here and say don't park illegally, I didn't know I was parked illegally and I paid my fine for the offence, I think it is a bit extreme to get three tickets for the same offence (over an hour and half!!) - any feedback appreciated - thanks

Anan1

AineK77 wrote: »

I know this is an old post but I was doing a bit of googling regarding my own case, I got ticketed twice by the Gardai for the same offence (parked in a taxi bay on Patrick Street on Sunday before Christmas thought it was a loading bay) paid one got the other one quashed but then got a summons the other day from Cork City Council turns out I was ticketed three times for the same offence in an hour and a half twice by the Gardaí and once by a traffic warden. Thing is I never got the ticket from the traffic warden just got a straight summons, I sent off a letter of appeal to CCC but they advised that as it was too late and court proceedings were already in place - seems like a waste of time to me and I guess I will just have to go to court in December and appeal it but is there any other way of appealing this??? And before anyone comes back like they did here and say don't park illegally, I didn't know I was parked illegally and I paid my fine for the offence, I think it is a bit extreme to get three tickets for the same offence (over an hour and half!!) - any feedback appreciated - thanks

Go to court with proof that you paid one ticket and the other was quashed and hope the judge sees it the same way?

Guy:Incognito

subway wrote: »

i agree with the rest of your post except the time scales. i think 1 ticket per hour is unfair. i dont know what the law is on the matter (presuming no one else does either since it hasnt been posted) but i would feel 1 ticket per day is a reasonable amount. if any gardai or lawyers are about maybe they can clarify as to how often a car can be ticketed in the same spot.

So how long do you think someone should be allowed abandon a car illegally for while only getting 1 ticket?

EDIT. Didnt realise it was an old thread. :-(

UnknownSpecies

AineK77 wrote: »

I know this is an old post but I was doing a bit of googling regarding my own case, I got ticketed twice by the Gardai for the same offence (parked in a taxi bay on Patrick Street on Sunday before Christmas thought it was a loading bay) paid one got the other one quashed but then got a summons the other day from Cork City Council turns out I was ticketed three times for the same offence in an hour and a half twice by the Gardaí and once by a traffic warden. Thing is I never got the ticket from the traffic warden just got a straight summons, I sent off a letter of appeal to CCC but they advised that as it was too late and court proceedings were already in place - seems like a waste of time to me and I guess I will just have to go to court in December and appeal it but is there any other way of appealing this??? And before anyone comes back like they did here and say don't park illegally, I didn't know I was parked illegally and I paid my fine for the offence, I think it is a bit extreme to get three tickets for the same offence (over an hour and half!!) - any feedback appreciated - thanks

As Anan1 said, go to court and hope the judge sees it your way.

I had a similar situation to you. Parked in the taxi bay on a Sunday because I thought it was a loading bay. The sign that says it's a taxi bay is hidden behind a bloody tree, took me ages to find it when I went looking. My story was that I parked there for work (under the impression I had free parking), the Garda didn't put a notice on my window and I got 3 fines in the post. Since the car was in my mother's name and she was out of the country, I didn't know the letters were fines for my parking. So what did I do? Parked in the EXACT same spot next week and picked up another two fines, nice...

Anyway, I went to the nearest Garda station and I had a chat with the guy in there. He told me to pay one fine for each day and write a letter to the Superintendent explaining my situation and it would be ok. So I did that and the Super struck off the remaining 3 fines, happy days. It might be too late to write a letter but ask a Garda inside Anglesea street and see what he thinks.

PapaSierra

Hi, I actually started this thread while ago. I went to court with a proof of the payment and it took no longer then maybe 2 minutes to cancel the other fine (excluding 2hrs waiting).

Guy:Incognito - I would say that something like 6 hours or so sounds reasonable. I like the term you used "abandon a car illegally"

AineK77

Thanks PapaSierra I wanted to see how it turned out for you yeah I think I am resigned to the fact that I will have to make my first court appearance in Decemeber - the letter from CCC annoyed me tho' as apparently the last day I had to appeal the ticket was January 17th but I never got their ticket so how could I appeal at least the Gardai did their paperwork and got their tickets out to me
So it's an afternoon court appearance I'll take my half day from work and sher maybe get some Christmas shopping done after or maybe celebrate my freedom - I was thinking of ordering an "It wasn't me t-shirt" what do you think would the judge appreciate it ha ha
Thanks all hopefully I won't be spending Christmas in the clink!!