I can't get tenants out

kranky · 05-01-2011 12:08am #1

Hi, I`ve rented a room to a couple in a house for the last 10 months, their lease ended 3 months ago and I never renewed it as 2 months ago I gave them 2 months notice for eviction as they now have a baby but are only renting one room in the house. I didnt know she was pregnant when she moved in and she lied about her due date. I gave them a letter which they are now saying that they never received even though I had various conversations with them about them leaving and gave them a reference so they knew full well that they had to move out. They are now refusing to move saying it is their home, i have no rights etc and also they are refusing to pay any rent. How do I get them to move out..if I have already given them 2 months written notice what do i have to do...is the law alwasy going to be on their side? :mad:

athtrasna · 05-01-2011 12:16am

Are you the owner of the property? Or are you sub-letting. There's a big difference legally in this situation.

If you are the owner and living in the property they basically have no right to stay, they are licencees rather than tenants, sub-letting (or absent landlord) it's more difficult.

kranky · 05-01-2011 12:17am

Im the owner

alanacadia · 05-01-2011 12:21am

Hi ,
I would wait until they all go out some day and just change the front door locks on your home, and let them try to take you to court, if they break the locks phone the Gardai and have them arrested .

Let them take the legal route you will only have to defend your case and your case looks better to me than thier case , paying no rent , they dont really have any rights at all,

athtrasna · 05-01-2011 12:23am

Deleted - was under the impression OP was owner occupier

ztoical · 05-01-2011 12:23am

When you say they are renting a room do you live in the property as well?

kranky · 05-01-2011 12:25am

They`ve a new born baby so theres always someone at home. Other person in house moved out cos of baby so now they have whole house to themselves and they were only paying for one room-it just feels like the law is on their side, nobody would allow a "new family" to be kicked out with no where to go even though its because they dont want to find anywhere else to go. :mad::mad::mad:

Scotty # · 05-01-2011 12:26am

I'd seriously consider talking to a solicitor before taking the advice above.

Maybe post your question on the legal forum.

Removing unwanted tenants/lodgers can be a very lengthy and expensive process. Simply locking them out is not really an option.

kranky · 05-01-2011 12:30am

ok thanks for that.

athtrasna · 05-01-2011 12:31am

ztoical wrote: »

When you say they are renting a room do you live in the property as well?

+1, your comment about them having the house to themselves suggests you don't live there? That makes things a whole lot more complicated. What did their lease say? Rent of one room only but use of common areas? Or were they jointly on the lease with the tenant who moved out.

Trhiggy83 · 05-01-2011 12:31am

Just kick them out, its your house. You sound like a soft touch and they probably recognise this and are seeing how long they can they get away with what they are doing. I would just call the gaurds and demand they are arrested on the spot. Problem solved

kranky · 05-01-2011 12:32am

No I dont live in it, just rented the 2 rooms seperately as renting them together was harder..

kranky · 05-01-2011 12:35am

athtrasna wrote: »

+1, your comment about them having the house to themselves suggests you don't live there? That makes things a whole lot more complicated. What did their lease say? Rent of one room only but use of common areas? Or were they jointly on the lease with the tenant who moved out.

yeah it says rent of one room...but the lease in now actually up as I wrote them an eviction letter instead of renewing the lease...thought I was being generous giving them 2 months!

MagicMarker · 05-01-2011 12:35am

Trhiggy83 wrote: »

Just kick them out, its your house. You sound like a soft touch and they probably recognise this and are seeing how long they can they get away with what they are doing. I would just call the gaurds and demand they are arrested on the spot. Problem solved

It's not a criminal matter, it's a civil matter.

OP, you need to seek legal advice. Do not listen to anyone telling you to change locks, you need to follow the letter of the law to ensure nothing comes back to bite you in the ass.

goat2 · 05-01-2011 12:36am

your situation is a bad one, as you cannot just put them out, the law is on their side now that they have a baby, if they had no baby, you could go change lock, they can hold you up for the next yr or two yrs, if they are not paying you will have a stronger case,

ztoical · 05-01-2011 12:36am

If the lease has finished then they are covered by a 4 part tenancy. In order to legally evict them you must give written notice to leave after that notice period passes and they haven't left you need to contact the PRTB (whom the tenancy should be registered with) and follow their procedure.

goat2 · 05-01-2011 12:40am

maybe they are receiving rent allowance, so that should be going to you, but you cannot just change lock when there is an infant involved, that would be breaking the law

ztoical · 05-01-2011 12:40am

goat2 wrote: »

your situation is a bad one, as you cannot just put them out, the law is on their side now that they have a baby, if they had no baby, you could go change lock, they can hold you up for the next yr or two yrs, if they are not paying you will have a stronger case,

The fact that they have a baby makes no difference the op cannot enter the property nor change locks, turn of utilities…if they want them out they must follow the correct procedure otherwise they won't get the property back and may end up paying the tenants for an illegal eviction.

athtrasna · 05-01-2011 12:41am

Trhiggy83 wrote: »

Just kick them out, its your house. You sound like a soft touch and they probably recognise this and are seeing how long they can they get away with what they are doing. I would just call the gaurds and demand they are arrested on the spot. Problem solved

Do this and you're looking at a fine of about 10k!

Sorry OP but as a non-resident landlord you are facing a difficult process. The issue of whether they actually received the notice of non-renewal. Talk to Threshold about where to go from here.

Do you have a friend or family member who could move into the other room and make things less comfortable in the house? You could also lock the second room, they are not entitled to access it.

Just be careful..the tenants have a lot more rights than landlords under current legislation. Any slips ups on your part will be costly. Not fair, not right, welcome to PRTB land!

convert · 05-01-2011 12:42am

If you don't live in the house, then they're tenants rather than licensees, so they'll have more rights.

Contact a solicitor and threshold and see what they have to say. Whatever you do, make sure you adhere strictly to the law, otherwise you may never get rid of them. Changing the locks, or removing power/heat, etc. is not the way to go.

Do you have any proof of them receiving the letter (registered letter)?

You say they're in the property 10 months and that the lease expired 3 months ago (so they had a 7 month lease)? Or is it longer than 10 months? If they're living in the house for a year or more, regardless of whether or not there's a lease in place, then they may be covered by a Part 4 tenancy (see prtb.ie), wherein there's a clause that you can end their tenancy if you need the use of the house for yourself or a family member, of if you want to renovate the house.

However, you really need to contact threshold as a starting point, and then seek expert legal advice on this. If you don't adhere to the law, then you're leaving open to a lot of trouble.

ztoical · 05-01-2011 12:43am

goat2 wrote: »

but you cannot just change lock when there is an infant involved, that would be breaking the law

The op cannot change the locks period the fact they have a baby makes no difference to law

wingnut · 05-01-2011 12:44am

If living in the house would put him in a stronger position could he not just move into the free in room in the house?

ztoical · 05-01-2011 12:47am

wingnut wrote: »

If living in the house would put him in a stronger position could he not just move into the free in room in the house?

No as they already had a lease with the op that has most likely now become a 4 part tenancy it cannot now be changed to a rent room situation.

goat2 · 05-01-2011 12:51am

watch out, if you move in you would have to watch your step, as they will be waiting for the chance to pounce, but if the other room could acommodate two people, then get two friends to share that room, which means it will bet a bit overcrowded and they may just leave quietly,

Dublinstiofán · 05-01-2011 12:55am

Id pop over and give them this letter. A solicitor might have a better idea but this would be my first step

You shouldn't have let it go two months and just left them there baby or not.

Dear Mr and Mrs X,

Your lease in my property has ended and has not been renewed. I have served you your notice and allowed you the appropriate two months to secure alternative accommodation.

As a result of still residing in my property despite clear instructions to vacate, you have breached the terms of our signed lease agreement in the following areas:
You have not vacated my premises by the date previously agreed.

You were deceitful in your application by not informing me of the due date of your newborn child.

You have not paid your rent for the last two months and continue to do same.

I have spoken to my solicitor and he as told me to inform you that you now have five working days to vacate my property. If you do so in the extra time now very generously allocated to you i will pursue no further action against you through the courts. And i will waive the remaining balance for the last two months rent provided you are moved out by next Monday the 10th of January by 11pm.

Should you choose to stay i will pursue this matter through the courts and i will collect all backdated funds owed to me and weekly rent of €3400 (Maintenance and gas fees) for the remaining duration of your stay. Furthermore there are eight college students moving in to share the other two rooms from next Tuesday the 11th of January. Please have the spare rooms vacated and hoovered by then.

I will be over to visit with two members of the Gardai and a locksmith on Tuesday morning to see to our new tenants in. My bank account hopes to see you then.

Best Regards and happy new year,

A very Kranky landlord.

snickers · 05-01-2011 12:56am

Just wondering are they irish or foriegn .Why dont you try to be as annoying as you can be turn up unexpected play loud music at inconvenient times invite friends for loud partys make a hinderance of yourself maybe even take electric appliances that belong to you out of house who can live without washing machine cooker etc .

Trhiggy83 · 05-01-2011 12:57am

MagicMarker wrote: »

It's not a criminal matter, it's a civil matter.

OP, you need to seek legal advice. Do not listen to anyone telling you to change locks, you need to follow the letter of the law to ensure nothing comes back to bite you in the ass.

Sorry the last post probably wasnt helpful, but thats what i would do.
Changing the locks in front of them would be a good idea. That way they cant leave the house. If they change the locks themselves then im sure you could call the gaurds to sort it out. Probably best to get legal advice though but it sounds pretty straight forward to me.

JonJoeDali · 05-01-2011 12:58am

I'd get a friend to move in.

Failing that, the PRTB process will take you at about 12 months.

First hearing, they'll probably appeal, second hearing, they'll appeal again. Only then can you go to court for an enforced eviction. And no judge will evict a family with a new-born baby.

Nothing much you can do.

You need to be "innovative" if you know what I mean. Their problems are not yours and there's a social welfare system that you're paying for to look after these parasites.

JonJoeDali · 05-01-2011 1:00am

Dublinstiofán wrote: »

Id pop over and give them this letter. A solicitor might have a better idea but this would be my first step You shouldn't have let it go two months and just left them there baby or not.

Do NOT send that letter. Possibly open to a discrimination case there. Also, it's not very well worded.

athtrasna · 05-01-2011 1:01am

snickers wrote: »

maybe even take electric appliances that belong to you out of house who can live without washing machine cooker etc .

Don't do this - tenants are entitled to some appliances. Cooking appliances being one of them. Any mistake like this at this time will be VERY costly. Talk to Threshold and/or a solicitor and do everything to the letter of the law.

ztoical · 05-01-2011 1:01am

snickers wrote: »

Just wondering are they irish or foriegn .Why dont you try to be as annoying as you can be turn up unexpected play loud music at inconvenient times invite friends for loud partys make a hinderance of yourself maybe even take electric appliances that belong to you out of house who can live without washing machine cooker etc .

The op cannot legally enter the property under current laws. Seriously don't listen to anything about changing locks, making threats your just making huge costly mistake for yourself. Contact the PRTB first thing tomorrow and start the correct eviction process.

JonJoeDali · 05-01-2011 1:02am

ztoical wrote: »

The op cannot legally enter the property under current laws. Seriously don't listen to anything about changing locks, making threats your just making huge costly mistake for yourself. Contact the PRTB first thing tomorrow and start the correct eviction process.

PRTB process takes 12 months. And tenants know it.

Even when you've gone through the process and can get the case heard before a judge, the judge won't necessarily kick 'em out - new-born babies/sick kids/long-term illnesses/depression/anxiety/stress have a habit of appearing. Also, they'll remain in the gaff until every last appeal avenue is exhausted.

goat2 · 05-01-2011 1:03am

could they be called squatters, since they are now not paying

Dublinstiofán · 05-01-2011 1:06am

I would definitely put a couple of bunk beds in and move 6 or 8 students in for a 6 month contract and set rent at €200 a month each to try cover solicitor fees. When they are getting pissed the whole time and partying til all hours they will soon get sick of it.

snickers · 05-01-2011 1:06am

ztoical wrote: »

The op cannot legally enter the property under current laws. Seriously don't listen to anything about changing locks, making threats your just making huge costly mistake for yourself. Contact the PRTB first thing tomorrow and start the correct eviction process.

The property was being shared so if landlord wanted to show a perspective tenant around he/she could not enter premises i dont think so.

ztoical · 05-01-2011 1:08am

JonJoeDali wrote: »

First hearing, they'll probably appeal, second hearing, they'll appeal again. Only then can you go to court for an enforced eviction. And no judge will evict a family with a new-born.

Again the baby makes no difference the judge has to follow the law (and if it did take that long it wouldn't be a new born)

The fact that they just stopped paying rent and informed the op that it was there home and they werent moving rather then trying to feed the op lies about rent coming and looking for new house to rent makes it sound like they are well aware of the law and the rights they have so I would be very care full how you proceed op

JonJoeDali · 05-01-2011 1:09am

Dublinstiofán wrote: »

And i would move about four or five people in. Try a few members of your family or friends or something just to piss them off. Hopefully they will move on.

Moving in friends/family can be seen as "harassment" and may not be looked upon favorably by the PRTB/a judge. A very serious point to consider.

Also, you'd want to have a very good friend/family member who'd put up with living in such a small house with 4 people. Not as easy as it seems - tenants can deny entry and they don't have to open the door. If you try and force your way in, the gardai will be around in a flash to investigate matters. Not the kind of thing you want brought up at PRTB hearings/court proceedings.

ztoical · 05-01-2011 1:11am

snickers wrote: »

The property was being shared so if landlord wanted to show a perspective tenant around he/she could not enter premises i dont think so.

The tenants have use of communal spaces si the LL would have to get permission to enter. Also I think going by the ops posts the tenants are aware of their rights and if the op trys to use accessing the property to show tenants around as an excuse to spy on the tenants or to move famil or friends in the tenants can make claims if harassment if the op is not careful

JonJoeDali · 05-01-2011 1:13am

ztoical wrote: »

Again the baby makes no difference the judge has to follow the law (and if it did take that long it wouldn't be a new born)

I know the process. Do not underestimate how long it takes to jump through all the hoops. A judge has to follow the law, yes, but has lots of discretion with regard penalties/orders/etc.

Of course you can fock it all up by getting hot-headed one day and changing locks/harass the tenant/etc.

ztoical wrote: »

The fact that they just stopped paying rent and informed the op that it was there home and they werent moving rather then trying to feed the op lies about rent coming and looking for new house to rent makes it sound like they are well aware of the law and the rights they have so I would be very care full how you proceed op

These tenants know exactly what they're doing. They're probably getting rent allowance straight into their pockets too.

No point persuing them when/if you get them out cos you can't take the knickers off a bare bottom.

ztoical · 05-01-2011 1:15am

goat2 wrote: »

could they be called squatters, since they are now not paying

No you need to be in a property for a fair number of years and meet other criteria to try and gain squatters rights

Dublinstiofán · 05-01-2011 1:18am

Personally i think its all the OP's own fault which has now turned into a massive problem.

I have no experience in renting out houses personally but i know people who do. And i know for a fact they have never had any trouble with any tenant in their houses for years and years as they have screened them carefully before allowing them into their property in the first place.

If she knew the lady was pregnant before she allowed them tenancy she must have known that whoever was renting the other room would run a mile when the baby arrived. Or was he/she just not thinking or involved in the renting process at all?

goat2 · 05-01-2011 1:19am

JonJoeDali wrote: »

I know the process. Do not underestimate how long it takes to jump through all the hoops. A judge has to follow the law, yes, but has lots of discretion with regard penalties/orders/etc.

Of course you can fock it all up by getting hot-headed one day and changing locks/harass the tenant/etc.

These tenants know exactly what they're doing. They're probably getting rent allowance straight into their pockets too.

No point persuing them when/if you get them out cos you can't take the knickers off a bare bottom.

but they can get on to the socail welfare and say that they are not being paid the rent, then the welfare system may send the cheque on to the land lord, as that money is not theirs but the landlords,

snickers · 05-01-2011 1:20am

ztoical wrote: »

The tenants have use of communal spaces si the LL would have to get permission to enter. Also I think going by the ops posts the tenants are aware of their rights and if the op trys to use accessing the property to show tenants around as an excuse to spy on the tenants or to move famil or friends in the tenants can make claims if harassment if the op is not careful

Ok then is it harrasment for LL to chase rent arrears .Imo and if i was in this situation i would fight fire with fire and if what you are saying is correct then doing nothing or doing things by the book is exactly what they want .

JonJoeDali · 05-01-2011 1:21am

Dublinstiofán wrote: »

Personally i think its all the OP's own fault which has now turned into a massive problem.

Oh well that means it's ok to have leeching "tenants" so.

JonJoeDali · 05-01-2011 1:22am

goat2 wrote: »

but they can get on to the socail welfare and say that they are not being paid the rent, then the welfare system may send the cheque on to the land lord, as that money is not theirs but the landlords,

What? A couple of hundred Euro (that you'll have to write letters for and hassle people on the phone for ages to get your hands on it) for one room in a 2-bed house that's currently a liability rather than an asset for the foreseeable future?

ztoical · 05-01-2011 1:24am

snickers wrote: »

Ok then is it harrasment for LL to chase rent arrears .Imo and if i was in this situation i would fight fire with fire and if what you are saying is correct then doing nothing or doing things by the book is exactly what they want .

I never said I agreed with the law just stating the current state of tenancy law is very much in favor of tenants over LL. It sucks but it's the reality of the situation.

goat2 · 05-01-2011 1:32am

JonJoeDali wrote: »

What? A couple of hundred Euro (that you'll have to write letters for and hassle people on the phone for ages to get your hands on it) for one room in a 2-bed house that's currently a liability rather than an asset for the foreseeable future?

just one phonecall really,as they are going to be there a long time, and better something than nothing, the ll will have to go to a solicitor for advice, will have to wait for hearing, could take from one to three yrs, i know as i have been where this ll is

knotknowbody · 05-01-2011 2:06am

I would tell them your going to be arranging viewings for the other rooms, then i would start to arrange with my mates to go round to view the rooms at approx 8 AM everyday with a different mate, i would keep this up until i had gone through all my mates, cousins, nephews and nieces, that would take about 3 months for me, these people are generally lazy types who don't like getting up early so that will annoy them, there are other annoying little things you can do that may eventually piss them off and make them leave. Make life as difficult for them as you can without doing anything that infringes on their rights.

gimme5minutes · 05-01-2011 2:55am

You really are looking at well over a year, maybe two to get them out if they flat out refuse to move and it certainly looks like this is the case. Until the day eventually comes when a court gives an eviction order that lets the gardai put them out....and you can forget about getting any of the money owed for 1-2 years worth of rent and utilities.

You cant change locks, cut electricity, etc as with Ireland's justice system that will cost you even more when you get slapped with a ridiculous fine for putting these scumbags out.

So I am in agreement with the other posters about the next course of action. Put a few students in there on a 3/6 month lease, find the messiest, loudest ones you can find and tell them you have no problems with house parties, cleanliness, etc... Or move in yourself, (or have a friend or relative move in), and have music on all night and generally be an absolute nuisance in the place. Basically you want them to experience living with housemates from hell, everything nice and legal though, and they will be left with no option but to move, and they will have no comeback as no law was broken.

gimme5minutes · 05-01-2011 3:01am

JonJoeDali wrote: »

Moving in friends/family can be seen as "harassment" and may not be looked upon favorably by the PRTB/a judge. A very serious point to consider.

Ill tell you what wont be looked upon favorably by the PRTB/a judge - moving into a house and flat out refusing to pay the rent. These tenants are pure chancers, there is no law against OP putting himself, friends, family, or students in there. I have yet to hear of case taken against a landlord by their tenant because they were unhappy with a fellow tenant. These scumbags will eventually be turfed out but by that stage OP will be down thousands of euro and will have to put up with 1-2 years worth of constant stress.

gossipgal08 · 05-01-2011 9:54am

If they only rent one room surely the LL can rent the second room and show tennents arround after giving notice to the family. Could the LL arange for a friend in their late teens/ early twentys to move in for a small amount of rent and make noise/mess to encourage the family to leave. Also contact SW and tell them the people are not paying rent so the rent allowance is cut off.

I can't get tenants out

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