Cannot find gg grandfather in 1901 census

owenc

Hello folks i have found a little problem for you i have started another family tree this time my grandfathers mothers tree which is smith. I have gotten back to my gg grandfather who is hugh smith i can find him in the 1911 census here : http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Londonderry/Keady/Dun_More/596752/ but i cannot find him in the 1901 census! Where is he? I have tried different surname formats everything and he just isn't there!:mad: Perhaps i have unlocked a secret maybe they are from another place antrim or england i hope so!!!:) Would be class.

Ponster

Interesting that I can't seem to find any results for anyone (not just Hugh Smith) if I choose 'Londonderry' as their county of origin.

A bug perhaps?

shanew

there's a bit of a bug in the search function on the National Archives website - so searching for Londonderry as county of birth doesn't work sometimes. Many people put 'Co. Derry' as their place of birth and the search uses Londonderry .. and misses them.

As an example I picked someone at random in Limivady - a Hugh Gould age 46

see : http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Londonderry/Limavaddy/Ballyclose_Street/1525741/

He has his place of birth entered as Co. Derry, so does not show up if you add county of birth of Londonderry to the search.

see : http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/search/results.jsp?census_year=1901&surname=gould&firstname=hugh&county=&townland=&ded=&age=46&sex=&search=Search&relationToHead=&religion=&education=&occupation=&marriageStatus=&birthplace=Londonderry&language=&deafdumb=&marriageYears=&childrenBorn=&childrenLiving=

However you can correct this by modifying the search url to try for just Derry.

look for the section in bold

....&marriageStatus=&birthplace=Londonderry&language=....

and change to

....&marriageStatus=&birthplace=Derry&language=....

You can use this to try for some other places that dont work correctly in the place of birth search - e.g. Belfast..



Shane

owenc

Ok i have gotten back further i know hes from that area i just need to try and find him i will try what you two have said and see what it says. thanks for your help

owenc

owenc wrote: »

Ok i have gotten back further i know hes from that area i just need to try and find him i will try what you two have said and see what it says. thanks for your help

No sorry that never worked any other suggestions?? If not it dosn't matter i know who his father and grandfather are i don't have births though could someone try and find them for me.

First one going backwards from him is Hugh Smith from Bovevagh County Londonderry who is supposedly born in 1848 according to the 1851 census.

Then Edward Smith from Bovevagh don't know his estimated birth date but he married in 1843 so its probably 1830 or 1820 something.

And lastly Hugh Smith (this is obviously were he got hugh from) who married in 1819 in Bovevagh presbyterian church ... this wouldn't be him would it!:eek::eek: He hardly married that old!


Name:Hugh Smith
Registration District:Newtownlimavady
Event Type: DEATHS
Registration Quarter and Year: 1864
Estimated Birth Year:1763
Age (at Death): 101
Mother's Maiden Name:
Film Number:101582
Volume Number:6
Page Number:653
Digital Folder Number:4200214
Image Number: 00246


LOL and this wouldn't be him aswell would it?? http://applications.proni.gov.uk/DCAL_PRONI_ProniNames/ResultDetails.aspx LOOK they are living in the same place 250 years laters OMG THATs a long time to be living in one place!


If that was my ggg grandfather that would be amazing that old back then i wonder how far back i could get after that hmmm it would be amazing to get even further after doing my own family tree and only getting back to 1810 ughh and i've been doing it for a year now!

Wyldwood

I wonder could this be him
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai000258188/
it says he was born in Antrim but that could have been an error on the part of the head of household - not wanting to quiz his guest.

owenc

Wyldwood wrote: »

I wonder could this be him
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai000258188/
it says he was born in Antrim but that could have been an error on the part of the head of household - not wanting to quiz his guest.

Nope he is definately not from antrim as you can see the family have been living in the area for at least 250 years!:eek: As you can see from the 1766 census when they are living in bovevagh. The problem is trying to see who this man is in the deaths that i posted

Ponster

owenc wrote: »

Nope he is definately not from antrim as you can see the family have been living in the area for at least 250 years

He could have been anywhere in Ireland, within reason, during the 1901 census.

I have found people that were born in Tipp in 1901 only to be born in Waterford in 1911.

owenc

Ponster wrote: »

He could have been anywhere in Ireland, within reason, during the 1901 census.

I have found people that were born in Tipp in 1901 only to be born in Waterford in 1911.

No definately not hes in the 1851 census in the exact same place the family have been living there for hundreds of years without moving here he is in the 1851 census in the same place :

Record Type Census 1851 Abstracts
Record Date 1851
Name Hugh SMITH
Age 3
Relationship in Household Son
Townland Drumadreen
Parish Bovevagh
County Londonderry

and here is the family in the 1766 religious census :

Index : 1766 Religious Census

Surname : Smith
Forename : Hugh
Townland : Drumadreen & Mulkeeragh
Parish : Bovevagh
County : Londonderry
Religion : Dissenter

If the family have been there that long why ain't he in the 1901 census i can't work this out!!

Ponster

owenc wrote: »

If the family have been there that long why ain't he in the 1901 census i can't work this out!!

Because he was visiting someone else the day of the census ?

owenc

Ponster wrote: »

Because he was visiting someone else the day of the census ?

hmmm maybe lol

spurious

Could this be him?
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai000603908/

owenc

spurious wrote: »

Could this be him?
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai000603908/

Where is that though? He has to be in the bovevagh area as he was born and died there the family did not move once the only person to move ever in the family was my g granny who lost the name lol how typical of us lol. He also has to be in and around 60.

Brenireland

Lads lads lads how are yeahs all....could ye tell me,Are their many census's from the past available on line for Ireland would love to know cheers bye.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

spurious wrote: »

Could this be him?
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai000603908/

I don't think that's him as the ages don't add up, his wife is 10 years older than she was in 1911. Is it possible he was married twice?

spurious

I wouldn't rely too much on the age thing. There are lots of inaccuracies re ages.
That one I posted was from the Coleraine area (Macosquin parish).

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

owenc wrote: »

Where is that though? He has to be in the bovevagh area as he was born and died there the family did not move once the only person to move ever in the family was my g granny who lost the name lol how typical of us lol. He also has to be in and around 60.

I can't find one of my great grand parents on either of the census. My grandad was born in 1912, so chances are he had to be in the country in 1911 but there's no sign of him.

It could be a simple case of him not being at home on the night it was taken, and where ever he was they didn't include him?

Oh, and I'm not judging, but 70 years old with a 35 year old wife :eek: The old dog

owenc

spurious wrote: »

I wouldn't rely too much on the age thing. There are lots of inaccuracies re ages.
That one I posted was from the Coleraine area (Macosquin parish).

Aw thats were i live:D naw that isn't him he has to be in the limavady area(he was born and died in this area) i have searched for his mother and father and brothers and they aren't there either!:eek:

owenc

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

I don't think that's him as the ages don't add up, his wife is 10 years older than she was in 1911. Is it possible he was married twice?

You couldn't have seen his wife she only married him in between the two censuss (yea ano 65 year old marryin a 30 year old ewgh:eek:) and the ages do add up he was born in 1848 which would make him around 70 in the 1911 census

spurious

owenc wrote: »

Aw thats were i live:D naw that isn't him he has to be in the limavady area(he was born and died in this area) i have searched for his mother and father and brothers and they aren't there either!:eek:

What are the brothers' names?

owenc

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

I can't find one of my great grand parents on either of the census. My grandad was born in 1912, so chances are he had to be in the country in 1911 but there's no sign of him.

It could be a simple case of him not being at home on the night it was taken, and where ever he was they didn't include him?

Oh, and I'm not judging, but 70 years old with a 35 year old wife :eek: The old dog

Yea he and his wife must've been out but why isn't the other brothers and parents there this just dosn't add up!:eek:

owenc

spurious wrote: »

What are the brothers' names?

james and thomas they are a around the same age as him by a few years.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

owenc wrote: »

You couldn't have seen his wife she only married him in between the two censuss (yea ano 65 year old marryin a 30 year old ewgh:eek:) and the ages do add up he was born in 1848 which would make him around 70 in the 1911 census

I was saying the link that the other poster posted couldn't be him because the wife's age on it didn't add up.

owenc

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

I was saying the link that the other poster posted couldn't be him because the wife's age on it didn't add up.

Yes and thats not him hes not from there

Ponster

owenc wrote: »

Yes and thats not him hes not from there

Again.....there are people from India in the Irish census because they happened to be in Ireland at the time of the census.

Just because someone is from X doesn't mean that he'll be at X the night of the census.

Legally everyone in the household was included; people didn't get the option to not declare themselves.

spurious

Also, as in modern times, some people were very suspicious of the census and did not take part. You also have to allow for missing sheets or bundles of sheets.

shanew

Brenireland wrote: »

Lads lads lads how are yeahs all....could ye tell me,Are their many census's from the past available on line for Ireland would love to know cheers bye.

I think your post got lost among the other discussions...

The two surviving complete historic Irish Census returns (1901 & 1911) are available on on the National Archives website - see : http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/

Other than a few fragments (for a handfull of townlands) no older census returns survive. Some were destroyed after the various statistics were extracted, other were pulped due to a paper shortage during WW1. The remaining early returns were destroyed during a fire in the Public Records Office at the four courts during the Civil War.

See the 'stickies' at the top of this forum for more details.


Shane

owenc

Hello another question here i've moved on lol and i'm doing my mothers tree and they are catholic which means its hard to get back but is there anyway to get past the whole church thing and get them further as i've got back to 1826 and i can't get any further?? I'm kinda hoping to find a converstion to church of ireland so i can get back as there are alot of them in the local area before times but i just can't get back ugh!!

shanew

owenc wrote: »

Hello another question here i've moved on lol and i'm doing my mothers tree and they are catholic which means its hard to get back but is there anyway to get past the whole church thing and get them further as i've got back to 1826 and i can't get any further?? I'm kinda hoping to find a converstion to church of ireland so i can get back as there are alot of them in the local area before times but i just can't get back ugh!!

It depends very much on which parish is involved. Not many RC parishes have records before about 1830 - particularly in rural areas.

What townland or parish are you looking for ?


Shane

owenc

shanew wrote: »

It depends very much on which parish is involved. Not many RC parishes have records before about 1830 - particularly in rural areas.

What townland or parish are you looking for ?


Shane

Draperstown..

jorg

I'm not sure if this should be a new thread but here goes ....

I too can't find an ancestor in the 1901 census. He and his family are in the 1911 in Dublin and I have found the birth details for his children in the GRO records up to 1892 in Dublin North but the entire family are missing in 1901. His name was John Free and in 1911, he lived in St. Patricks Tce, Drumcondra, Clonturk parish (ironically, there's also a St. Patricks Terrace, Drumcondra in St. Georges parish). I've searched the 1901 for all counties but no joy.

When browsing by street, it looks like a lot of the Dromcondra area is missing in the 1901 census. I know the NAI have said that some areas are missing but they haven't posted any further details yet.

Anyone know if areas of Dromcondra are missing?

owenc

jorg wrote: »

I'm not sure if this should be a new thread but here goes ....

I too can't find an ancestor in the 1901 census. He and his family are in the 1911 in Dublin and I have found the birth details for his children in the GRO records up to 1892 in Dublin North but the entire family are missing in 1901. His name was John Free and in 1911, he lived in St. Patricks Tce, Drumcondra, Clonturk parish (ironically, there's also a St. Patricks Terrace, Drumcondra in St. Georges parish). I've searched the 1901 for all counties but no joy.

When browsing by street, it looks like a lot of the Dromcondra area is missing in the 1901 census. I know the NAI have said that some areas are missing but they haven't posted any further details yet.

Anyone know if areas of Dromcondra are missing?

Try a different spelling even try spelling it in irish if that dosn't work put in his age and what he worked as and narrow it down from there.

shanew

owenc wrote: »

Draperstown..

Is that Draperstown near to Desertmartin & Magherafelt ?

shanew

jorg wrote: »

....
I've searched the 1901 for all counties but no joy.

When browsing by street, it looks like a lot of the Dromcondra area is missing in the 1901 census. I know the NAI have said that some areas are missing but they haven't posted any further details yet.

Anyone know if areas of Dromcondra are missing?

there are a few streets and townlands currently missing from the 1901
census online. I have not heard of any being missing for Drumcondra..

Some returns have yet to be filmed and a number are badly damaged or missing.

One detail to watch out for when browsing by street is that these can be split across more than one DED (electoral district) - so you may not always see the entire street in one list.


Shane

shanew

back to Draperstown....

I think you may be out of luck Owen with RC records for Draperstown, the Civil and RC parish is Ballynascreen and the records only go back to the 1830s. See http://www.irishtimes.com/ancestor/fuses/rcparishmaps/index.cfm?fuseaction=showidrecords&CityCounty=Derry&parish=Ballinascreen&churchid=347 (Irish Times)

That link also shows details of where copies of the records are available.


Shane

shanew

jorg wrote: »

....
name was John Free and in 1911, he lived in St. Patricks Tce, Drumcondra, Clonturk parish ...
I've searched the 1901 for all counties but no joy.
......
Anyone know if areas of Dromcondra are missing?

back to Drumcondra....

As far as I can see the St. Patrick's terrace in question was part of Dumcondra Rd. The next door neighbour to your Free family is a Vincent L. Guinan, public house, and he is listed in Thom's 1914 as the Grocer/Publican and owner of the Cat and Cage Tavern. This was on Drumcondra Road (still there I think....) and opposite St. Patricks college.

The same Vincent Guinan is listed in 1901 as a grocer in Drumcondra - see http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Dublin/Drumcondra/Drumcondra/1271862/

Based on the building return forms (B1) it looks like this is the same address - the land owner appears to be the same.. Wm. Wallis / William A. Wallace, but some of the adjacent houses look unoccupied... maybe newly built ?

p.s. do you have addresses for the births ?


Shane

jorg

Thanks Shane - nice bit of detective work there! I did feel that Patricks Tce was part of Drumcondra rd as the enumerators form described it as Drumcondra rd from Tolka bridge to city boundary ward.

I don't have the birth address as I only checked through the index in Dublin city library but it will be worth spending a few bob with the GRO for one of the birth records!

It still won't solve his whereabouts in the 1901 census. Its not a very common surname so there aren't many about. The only slim possibility is that as he is listed in 1911 as a retired RIC man, there may be a possibility that he was posted outside Ireland in 1901. I don't know if that was common.

Thanks again

Joe

owenc

shanew wrote: »

back to Draperstown....

I think you may be out of luck Owen with RC records for Draperstown, the Civil and RC parish is Ballynascreen and the records only go back to the 1830s. See http://www.irishtimes.com/ancestor/fuses/rcparishmaps/index.cfm?fuseaction=showidrecords&CityCounty=Derry&parish=Ballinascreen&churchid=347 (Irish Times)

That link also shows details of where copies of the records are available.


Shane

Uck typical pity they weren't church of ireland or presbyterian i could've got far further back than that every family tree that i have done has got back to the 1700s bar this one and they are the only catholics aswell quite odd considering mcwilliams are planters! Is there any other way to get back???

shanew

jorg wrote: »

.....
I did feel that Patricks Tce was part of Drumcondra rd as the enumerators form described it as Drumcondra rd from Tolka bridge to city boundary ward.
.....
It still won't solve his whereabouts in the 1901 census. Its not a very common surname so there aren't many about. The only slim possibility is that as he is listed in 1911 as a retired RIC man, there may be a possibility that he was posted outside Ireland in 1901. I don't know if that was common.
....

I dont think RIC men would be posted outside Ireland ... although I suppose some sort of inter-service transfer may be possible. I dont know if John was still serving in 1901, but sometimes RIC men (along with other occupations like soldiers) are recorded on the census using just their initials. It might be worth checking.. although the families are usually recorded under full names.

there's a possible listing for John in Thom's 1894...

Richmond Road, Drumcondra - Civil Parish of Clonturk, Barony of Coolock

9 Mr. John Free

No. 9 is vacant in 1904 - I'll have a further look for any sign of him...



Shane

shanew

owenc wrote: »

Uck typical pity they weren't church of ireland or presbyterian i could've got far further back than that every family tree that i have done has got back to the 1700s bar this one and they are the only catholics aswell quite odd considering mcwilliams are planters! Is there any other way to get back???

Unfortunatly not. Once you reach the beginning of parish records you usually run out of options for finding specific family details. You can sometimes work back in time using other records such as legal, land or rental records, but available sources for these will be very specific to that location and would usually only show the head of the household.

Occasionally you may find that earlier baptisms and marriages took place in a neighbouring parish (sometimes in the next county) which has older records. It might be worth checking out on the RC Parish map on the Irish Times - see : http://www.irishtimes.com/ancestor/browse/counties/rcmaps/index.htm


Shane

owenc

shanew wrote: »

Unfortunatly not. Once you reach the beginning of parish records you usually run out of options for finding specific family details. You can sometimes work back in time using other records such as legal, land or rental records, but available sources for these will be very specific to that location and would usually only show the head of the household.

Occasionally you may find that earlier baptisms and marriages took place in a neighbouring parish (sometimes in the next county) which has older records. It might be worth checking out on the RC Parish map on the Irish Times - see : http://www.irishtimes.com/ancestor/browse/counties/rcmaps/index.htm


Shane

Yes theres a pile of church of ireland ones accross the border and in the late 1700s i'm kinda hoping they converted around that time lol because they had to have at some time. I have read the will of the john mcwilliams that i have gotten back to and it mentions cloan theres a pile of mcwilliams in clough in tyrone at that time maybe his parents were from there.. is clone got any relations to clougher? Here is the will of my john. http://applications.proni.gov.uk/DCAL_PRONI_WillsCalendar/willsSearchResultsDetails.aspx and here is the family in clougher in the late 1700s. http://applications.proni.gov.uk/DCAL_PRONI_ProniNames/ResultDetails.aspx
Do you think they have any connection to my mcwilliams??

Oh and who is this ?? http://applications.proni.gov.uk/DCAL_PRONI_ProniNames/ResultDetails.aspx Another john mcwilliams in cloan. EDIT it won't let me post two links at the one time.

owenc

Where is john mcwilliams of cloan 1791 at in the 1766 religious census???

jorg

shanew wrote: »

back to Drumcondra....

As far as I can see the St. Patrick's terrace in question was part of Dumcondra Rd. The next door neighbour to your Free family is a Vincent L. Guinan, public house, and he is listed in Thom's 1914 as the Grocer/Publican and owner of the Cat and Cage Tavern. This was on Drumcondra Road (still there I think....) and opposite St. Patricks college.

The same Vincent Guinan is listed in 1901 as a grocer in Drumcondra - see http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Dublin/Drumcondra/Drumcondra/1271862/

Based on the building return forms (B1) it looks like this is the same address - the land owner appears to be the same.. Wm. Wallis / William A. Wallace, but some of the adjacent houses look unoccupied... maybe newly built ?

p.s. do you have addresses for the births ?


Shane

Just found records of 3 baptisms for John from 1884 to 1889 in Irishgenealogy.ie and he was in 6 Foster Avenue / Terrace - still in Drumcondra but he obviously moved houses quite a bit.

Interestingly in the church records as transcribed, they used Latin names so he's down twice as JOANNIS and strangely, once as LUDOUICUS with a sponsor named LADOVICUS! Sounds like an early Monty Python sketch!

Joe