Privatisation of the Irish Prisons

later12

"The better the actual state of our prisons is known and understood, the more clearly will all men see the necessity of those arrangements, by which they may be rendered schools of industry and virtue, instead of the very nurseries of crime" - Elizabeth Fry, Notes on a visit made to some of the Prisons, 1819

Having come across an interesting article on the effects of privatising the prison system here, and reflecting upon the state of Irish prisons today, I thought the question ought to be asked whether or not it is time to consider privatisation of the Irish prison system?

The Irish Prison system is totally antiquated and inhuman in its treatment of prisoners, as is shown every year with the publication of the Prisons Report. In failing to provide prisoners with basic human dignity and in failing to extend to them facilities which would enable them to better themselves while incarcarated in the prisons, not only are we quite possibly in breach of our constitutional obligations, we are also doing this state and its people a dis-service. We need an efficient and an effective prison system, and I'm not sure the state is in a position to provide this.

Given our situation, is it the case that we ought to place the day to day running of our prisons into the supervised hands of private companies, who may run them as they might run a private industry? This could potentially allow prisoners to improve their skills in real-life industries, providing them with greater opportunities when hey come to enter the real world?

Do we owe it to the prison population and to our society to privatise our prisons?

RichieC

Adding a profit motive to the incarceration of human beings is beyond despicable. More prisoners, more profit /wrong.

later12

But that's already the case for catering and other outsourced companies which serve the prisons.

It doesn't take away from the independence of the judiciary and would not be expected to positively affect the prison population.

charlemont

RichieC wrote: »

Adding a profit motive to the incarceration of human beings is beyond despicable. More prisoners, more profit /wrong.

exactly, and the amount of laws will keep going up too..

RichieC

later10 wrote: »

It doesn't take away from the independence of the judiciary and would not be expected to positively affect the prison population.

I'm not actually so optimistic about this prospect as yourself. look at the states as our canary down mineshaft on this topic, they have ridiculous lobbying power there, enough to push big legislative agendas, like the recent issue in Arizona (SB1070). they as a matter of fact lobbied hard (and helped write) for that legislation knowing it would provide more prisoners for their prisons.

cite:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=130833741

I've no doubt though this is the road we are on. so my protestations are a waste of time.

later12

In fairness SB1070 was, and is, a big deal in the US... it would be pretty foolish to suggest that it was the brainchild or the pet project of the prison companies as opposed to having arisen from public attitudes towards immigration in Arizona tbh. I don't fully buy what is implied in your article. Furthermore, lobbying in the US is an entirely different business in terms of legislating than it is in Ireland, you would really not be comparing like with like.

This doesn't take away from the potential benefits of the privatisation of the prisons on prisoners and on potentially discouraging effects towards prisoner recidivism through prisoner upskilling and through the provision of auxiliary structural benefits like improved accomodation and educational facilities which might potentially provide them with greater expectations from the outside world.

ChocolateSauce

Some things just should not be for profit, and prisons is one. It doesn't matter if they're less efficient under state control, it is wrong and dangerous to profit from the incarceration of people. It encourages corruption among judges and politicians, and reduces the justice system to a business.

jugger0

Just shoot the lot of em.

later12

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

Some things just should not be for profit,

But it already is for profit. Private companies, medical practices, law firms, prison officers, cleaning and management companies and gardai profit from the prison services every day of the week. Your problem seems to be in concolidating all of this by sending it through a private vehicle. I don't get that.
I am talking about outsourcing management only of the prison facilities for the potential benefit of the private companies for a compensatory return through the use of prison labour, for example in manufacturing. There would still be prison officers, gardai, social workers and medical professionals engaging with the prison population on a daily basis.

It doesn't matter if they're less efficient under state control

It does. Ask anyone who works with prisoners or who has spent time in prison. The current regime is totally unacceptable both legally and in terms of delivering a worthwhile service to the people.

RichieC

later10 wrote: »

In fairness SB1070 was, and is, a big deal in the US... it would be pretty foolish to suggest that it was the brainchild or the pet project of the prison companies as opposed to having arisen from public attitudes towards immigration in Arizona tbh. I don't fully buy what is implied in your article. Furthermore, lobbying in the US is an entirely different business in terms of legislating than it is in Ireland, you would really not be comparing like with like.

This doesn't take away from the potential benefits of the privatisation of the prisons on prisoners and on potentially discouraging effects towards prisoner recidivism through prisoner upskilling and through the provision of auxiliary structural benefits like improved accomodation and educational facilities which might potentially provide them with greater expectations from the outside world.

Arizona has been seeing a crime reduction pretty much across the board for the past decade. There is an intentional propaganda campaign which i can demonstrate involves actors from private prison industry.

Why do you think privately funded prisons will be better equipped than state run? the profit motive encourages corner cutting including over population and withholding of medical and social supplies, again I point to a broken private industry rife with it, the US health care sector. sure it's great, if you've lots of cash.

The implicit assumption that privately run institutions would be better equipped, in my mind, doesn't really follow.

Dirk Gently

how exactly does the private prison system work? (Genuine question)
who pays for what and in general terms are there particular private models considered superior to public models? I'm largely in agreement with RichieC above but admit I am not familiar with any case studies. I've always considered a private prison service as taboo, in the same way as I'd view a private police force or private army as potentially dangerous to the liberty and freedom of individuals and groups within society.

later12

clown bag wrote: »

how exactly does the private prison system work? (Genuine question)
who pays for what and in general terms are there particular private models considered superior to public models? I'm largely in agreement with RichieC above but admit I am not familiar with any case studies. I've always considered a private prison service as taboo, in the same way as I'd view a private police force or private army as potentially dangerous to the liberty and freedom of individuals and groups within society.

Firstly, I am talking about a situation whereby private companies manage the actual facilities - accomodation, sanitation, recreation and catering. They do this in return for prisoner's providing them with labour. In effect, prisoners work for their bread. In the process, they upskill.

Personally I would like to see a system whereby the state still manages the prison compound, employing auxiliary services such as additional security, medical and psychological back up and a district Prison Inspector as opposed to the one Prison Inspector that we currently employ. Prisoners who would remain in direct state care would be the protected prisoners who under current conditions are under lock down for up to 23 hours per day. I don't particularly agree with transferring them to private facilties.

As for examples, I am only familiar (through research) with cases within the American system and I am not particularly convinced that they are going about prison privatisation in the right way.

ChocolateSauce

later10 wrote: »

But it already is for profit. Private companies, medical practices, law firms, prison officers, cleaning and management companies and gardai profit from the prison services every day of the week. Your problem seems to be in concolidating all of this by sending it through a private vehicle. I don't get that.

My problem is with people profiting from justice. We've seen in the US already how having for-profit prisons leads to judges being paid off to sentence people longer, or wrongly. The less private the prisons, the better. The people, via the state, put them in there, and so the people via the state should keep them there, not pay a for-profit company to do it for them.

Could you clear up for me how the Garda profit? It's news to me....I always assumed they were a non-profit organisation.

It does. Ask anyone who works with prisoners or who has spent time in prison. The current regime is totally unacceptable both legally and in terms of delivering a worthwhile service to the people.

I think that trying some self-improvement rather than giving up and passing the buck would be a better course of action.

Paulzx

Have we not learned from the previous mistakes of the state in abdicating responsibility of people in its care? For decades the state let non state organisations incarcerate children, young people and adults. It got rid of the problem of people it considered undesirable by paying religous organisations to take them off their hands.

As a state we now reap the benifets of this in both the misery it caused to thousands of families and the financial cost to the state in compensation payouts.

If the state wishes to incarcerate someone they should be the sole responsibilty of the state. If a prison is run by a private compnay the state will still be liable for the companies mistakes.

The state should maintain complete control over the care of anyone in its prison syatem

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

A lot of criticism has been made of private prisons in the US with many claiming they don't actually save money...

http://money.cnn.com/2010/08/17/news/economy/private_prisons_economic_impact.fortune/

RichieC

We really don't need to follow the policy's of a country with such a ridiculously high prison population.



Does correlation in this case imply causation? it's worth noting the deregulation began in the 80's.

motherriley

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

Some things just should not be for profit, and prisons is one. It doesn't matter if they're less efficient under state control, it is wrong and dangerous to profit from the incarceration of people. It encourages corruption among judges and politicians, and reduces the justice system to a business.

Do you realise that prisoners are better looked after in prision than elderly people in care homes. At least prisioners can get out for daily recreation with a member of staff. In care homes there are no secure places for residents to get outside, no staff to take them out. If a resident has a mental condition (short term memory loss) then they are locked up 24/7. This is does not happen in prison.:(

Look at the amount of care homes there are in Ireland just check the HSE care website. :mad:

FreudianSlippers

RichieC wrote: »

Adding a profit motive to the incarceration of human beings is beyond despicable. More prisoners, more profit /wrong.

I disagree with this completely. I think the public nature of running prisons is unacceptable and they are treated worse than animals. Private companies could run prisons better than the public companies and I'd wager a lot that the conditions would be much better

DaSilva

OisinT wrote: »

I disagree with this completely. I think the public nature of running prisons is unacceptable and they are treated worse than animals. Private companies could run prisons better than the public companies and I'd wager a lot that the conditions would be much better

Please justify. I like clown bag am prepared to admit that I do not know an awful lot about the prison system as it is or as it could be, however just telling us private companies will do it better because they are private is so weak. I come from the software world where there are many examples of private companies actually damaging advancement of the technology, and so I don't see why it would be impossible for private companies to damage the advancement of the prison system.

I do accept I am ignorant on this topic and so I am prepared to withhold judgment until I hear argument from both sides, however it will be a short process if it ends up in the usual privatization style arguments which is usually the pro side saying "privatization will be better because private companies will run it better".

As a good example question, say we replace management of mount joy with business people, what are they going to do actually do?

OhNoYouDidn't

OisinT wrote: »

Private companies could run prisons better than the public companies and I'd wager a lot that the conditions would be much better

On what basis are you making that claim?

If anything our experience in Ireland of private 'prisons' shows the inmates were treated far worse than those in state prison care.

Another aspect to the US scam is that the governor of a prison has the right to extend someones stay for misbehaviour, no right to appeal. So logically, people spend a great deal more time in jail, at significantly more cost to the state, than they would under a public system

Het-Field

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

On what basis are you making that claim?

If anything our experience in Ireland of private 'prisons' shows the inmates were treated far worse than those in state prison care.

Another aspect to the US scam is that the governor of a prison has the right to extend someones stay for misbehaviour, no right to appeal. So logically, people spend a great deal more time in jail, at significantly more cost to the state, than they would under a public system

Obviously you have never visited an Irish prison. I would request you provide evidence of this assertion. From what I have seen the current prison system in Ireland is inadequate, grossly over populated and fails to benefit the prisoner or society.

A major benefit of private prisons could be alleviation of the pressures in Irish state run institutions. If you were to send the non violent, white coller, non addicted, short term, non recidivist prisoners to private institutions, it would allow for the state to take greater care of those prisoners who need the most help in terms of addiction treatement, education, and self development programmes. The current oversubscribed public prison system provides none of this.

OhNoYouDidn't

Het-Field wrote: »

Obviously you have never visited an Irish prison. I would request you provide evidence of this assertion. From what I have seen the current prison system in Ireland is inadequate, grossly over populated and fails to benefit the prisoner or society.

A major benefit of private prisons could be alleviation of the pressures in Irish state run institutions. If you were to send the non violent, white coller, non addicted, short term, non recidivist prisoners to private institutions, it would allow for the state to take greater care of those prisoners who need the most help in terms of addiction treatement, education, and self development programmes. The current oversubscribed public prison system provides none of this.

I'm not disputing that the Irish prison system is a shambles.

I'm questioning this mantra that privatising it will suddenly turn it into a wonderland where junkies clean up and criminals rehabilitate.

Mike 1972

later10 wrote: »

This could potentially allow prisoners to improve their skills in real-life industries, providing them with greater opportunities when hey come to enter the real world?

Why would they do this ?

Surely doing anything which might help a prisoner become rehabilitated and reduce their chance of reoffending is the last thing the operators of a privatised prison would want ?

Het-Field

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

I'm not disputing that the Irish prison system is a shambles.

I'm questioning this mantra that privatising it will suddenly turn it into a wonderland where junkies clean up and criminals rehabilitate.

While it will not clean up the system, it would vastly improve the current set-up. As I have said, it would alleviate the burden of the state to look after non-violent, non-addicted, non-recidivist criminals.

OhNoYouDidn't

Het-Field wrote: »

While it will not clean up the system, it would vastly improve the current set-up. As I have said, it would alleviate the burden of the state to look after non-violent, non-addicted, non-recidivist criminals.

But international experience of privatised prisons shows us the EXACT opposite happens....

We have experience of private detention centres in Ireland and it was appaling.

We look to the US and the system clearly doesn't work.

Where is this idea that private prisons would do anything other than incarcarate people for profit come from? The same people who think British rail privatisation was a good idea, or eircom. Failed ideology, move on.

Het-Field

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

But international experience of privatised prisons shows us the EXACT opposite happens....

We have experience of private detention centres in Ireland and it was appaling.

We look to the US and the system clearly doesn't work.

Where is this idea that private prisons would do anything other than incarcarate people for profit come from? The same people who think British rail privatisation was a good idea, or eircom. Failed ideology, move on.

What international experience ?

What Private Detention Centres ? The prison system in Ireland is public, and its major instutions have always been public. I think you might be inventing facts, or at least misrepresenting the raison d'etre of these centres.

The US system is heavily public. The largest prisions in the US are public, and they are the ones which fail the prisoners. They are the ones which have prisoners sleeping in tents in the desert. They are the ones which have recidivist criminals returning time and time again to clog up the system.

If managed properly, private prisons can be very useful. In the United Kingdom private prisons have been quite successful in dealing with a certain type of criminal.

Eircom was not a failed privatisation. New companies came into the market and over-took eircom. Eircom did not have the right to monopoly over who was the best in the market. Eircom failed itself. It has nothing to do with privatisation.

FreudianSlippers

DaSilva wrote: »

Please justify. I like clown bag am prepared to admit that I do not know an awful lot about the prison system as it is or as it could be, however just telling us private companies will do it better because they are private is so weak. I come from the software world where there are many examples of private companies actually damaging advancement of the technology, and so I don't see why it would be impossible for private companies to damage the advancement of the prison system.

I do accept I am ignorant on this topic and so I am prepared to withhold judgment until I hear argument from both sides, however it will be a short process if it ends up in the usual privatization style arguments which is usually the pro side saying "privatization will be better because private companies will run it better".

As a good example question, say we replace management of mount joy with business people, what are they going to do actually do?

I'll gladly elaborate when I have more time. I'm actually right about to get on a flight.

I will say that you cannot really compare the software world to the prison service.
Not to mention I wasn't really aware there were state-owned software producers?

It is my opinion that private companies have a bottom line. Their incentive is to profit - this means that they need to do their job correctly.

By improving the conditions of a prison and implementing a system of control over the inmates, removing drugs and alcohol to a large extent, and reducing the overcrowding issue they run a smoother jail with less incidents and riots. The more the prison runs smoothly, the less staff are needed and the fewer incidents occur.

There is no incentive for the current system to change. Prison service officers are well paid and there are many of them.

I'm just saying it's my opinion that there is more incentive for a private company to reform the prison system as there is more profit potential for them compared to the public system which is happy with the way things are IMO.

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Another aspect to the US scam is that the governor of a prison has the right to extend someones stay for misbehaviour, no right to appeal. So logically, people spend a great deal more time in jail, at significantly more cost to the state, than they would under a public system

That wouldn't really work in Ireland. They could easily Judicially Review any of these decisions as the Governor would be exercising a quasi-judicial power.

Not to mention that even if the prisoners are being kept in prison longer, a private company is going to want to minimise the costs of keeping that prisoner.

FreudianSlippers

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Why would they do this ?

Surely doing anything which might help a prisoner become rehabilitated and reduce their chance of reoffending is the last thing the operators of a privatised prison would want ?

There will always be new criminals to replace the old ones. They don't need to rely on re-offenders.

later12

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

We've seen in the US already how having for-profit prisons leads to judges being paid off to sentence people longer, or wrongly.

Where? You didn't provide a link for this statement. Anyway as I have repeatedly said, the US model of private prisons ought not to be our model. I have said this repeatedly. I am hoping that will serve as a response to all the other posters who also bring up the US prisons... nobody is asking us to emulate that.

The people, via the state, put them in there, and so the people via the state should keep them there

That would not change under a private prison system. The prison compound itself would still be owned by the state, its facilities could be rented by private companies who would manage the accomodation, maintenance, catering, educational and recreational areas of the compound.

RichieC wrote:

We really don't need to follow the policy's of a country with such a ridiculously high prison population.

Does correlation in this case imply causation? it's worth noting the deregulation began in the 80's.

<chart attached>

What link does the 80s have to your chart?? There is no link presented in your chart between rates of incarcaration and privatisation. In fact one could logically argue that privatisation followed on from increased rates of incaracaration. You can't just throw in a completely irrelevant chart and expect it to prove something it does not, especially when it has been repeated and repeated that the US model is not something being suggested here.

I have seen the inside of Mountjoy and Saint Patricks Institution first hand. The former is the more squalid and the latter is the more hopeless (and that's a hard task) - 16 year olds with no classes or workshops to attend spending most of their days making friends with fellow criminals or watching television. Literally just sitting there waiting to be let out without any attempt to reform them. This is why I posted Elizabeth Fry's quote at the beginning of the thread - to point out that these prisons could be be schools of industry instead of the nursery of crime. That we allow these institutions to act as criminal nurseries at such grave expense is nothing short of a scandal; it is a dis-service to the prisoners and to this society.

A private prison would not solve Ireland's crime problem. What it would do is provide prisoners with employable skills, acclimatise them to the work environment with all of the co-operation and work ethic that can require as well as familiarising them with good old fashioned slog.

There is an approximate daily prisoner population of 4,000 men, women and juveniles. We let them in and we let them out without, in most cases, providing them with a properly staffed, properly run or properly attended educational or reform facilities. The reason our reform facilities are so weak is because it is so expensive to run them, largely we depend on the VEC or even charity from the likes of the Quakers. This is not good enough. I believe that private industry may hold a key part of the solution on prisoner reform.

DaSilva

later10 what compensation (if any) do you propose to the inmates for their labor?

johnnyskeleton

later10 wrote: »

This doesn't take away from the potential benefits of the privatisation of the prisons on prisoners and on potentially discouraging effects towards prisoner recidivism through prisoner upskilling and through the provision of auxiliary structural benefits like improved accomodation and educational facilities which might potentially provide them with greater expectations from the outside world.

Why can't that be provided through the current system? These things cost money you know. Also, what private companies do you expect to take this up? Are hardend criminals going to go off and make high tech computer equipment or whatever the new buzzword is? When there are few jobs going, and lots of unemployed, do you really want to take paid jobs out of the economy.

RichieC wrote: »

Adding a profit motive to the incarceration of human beings is beyond despicable. More prisoners, more profit /wrong.

That would only be adding a profit motive into the courts system. The prison authorities do not control the numbers of persons coming in.

OisinT wrote: »

I disagree with this completely. I think the public nature of running prisons is unacceptable and they are treated worse than animals. Private companies could run prisons better than the public companies and I'd wager a lot that the conditions would be much better

What can private companies do that the public sector would not? We have no money to do any of this stuff as it is. A private company would only do the same, but will insist on a bit of profit for themselves. It would, just like all PPPs, be a big fiasco.

What can a private company do that the prison services currently cannot?

EDIT:

2 further observations:
1) assuming you can get some kind of work for prisoners to do, can they really do it to such an extent as to make prison self financing. It costs in excess of €70k to house a prisoner in Ireland, but even in a better run country it would be in excess of €40k.

2) there are already a number of prisons as described where people can learn skills - training units. There is one in Mountjoy, another in Midlans (I think) and possibly in Castlerea.

Mike 1972

OisinT wrote: »

There will always be new criminals to replace the old ones. They don't need to rely on re-offenders.

But just about any smart business person recognises the importance of repeat "customers" ?

later12

DaSilva wrote: »

later10 what compensation (if any) do you propose to the inmates for their labor?

Improved living facilties, mainly. I haven't really thought about minor renumeration or some other sort of work-reward system but it would make sense to facilitate such a thing on a reasonably small scale. It wouldn't necessarily be monetary reqard, more like improved accomodation or increased allowance for the use of recreational facilities.

jonnyskeleton wrote:

Why can't that be provided through the current system?

My last time on the inside of a prison was at the height of the economic boom and things were desperate then. from what I have heard now, and from what the Inspector of the Prisons Mr Justice Reilly has reported, facilities have become far worse and vocational, teaching and auxiliary staff are simply not being replaced once they quit (and believe me they tend to quit), This has led to the cancellation of worksjhops and educational facilities en masse, and that's if they even existed in the first place which in some cases like at St Pat's Juveniles, they never did.

These things cost money you know. Also, what private companies do you expect to take this up?

yes, but the long term costs would be significantly offset by the provision of (basically) free labour for the company.
I would expect manufacturing and processing companies in the main to be interested in this sort of programme... I am already aware of one programme that ran a few years ago where prisoners were involved in a sort of a horticultural mini-company they formed themselves by producing garden and household plants.

Are hardend criminals going to go off and make high tech computer equipment or whatever the new buzzword is?

Hardly.

When there are few jobs going, and lots of unemployed, do you really want to take paid jobs out of the economy.

The daily prisoner population is about 4,000. I would estimate that only about 60% of prisioners would be available for the kind of scheme I am talking about as things stand. The current unemployment figure is 280,000. I really don't think that's a huge dent. This is not an unemployment issue.

johnnyskeleton

later10 wrote: »

My last time on the inside of a prison was at the height of the economic boom and things were desperate then. from what I have heard now, and from what the Inspector of the Prisons Mr Justice O'Brien has reported, facilities have become far worse and vocational, teaching and auxiliary staff are simply not being replaced once they quit (and believe me they tend to quit), This has led to the cancellation of worksjhops and educational facilities en masse, and that's if they even existed in the first place which in some cases like at St Pat's Juveniles, they never did.

That is due to underfunding. If a private company were to offer all those services, it would cost the state more than they are presently paying. Put another way, why can't they pay for those extra services now within the public sector, other than a generalised rant at public sector inefficiencies.

later10 wrote: »

yes, but the long term costs would be significantly offset by the provision of (basically) free labour for the company.
I would expect manufacturing and processing companies in the main to be interested in this sort of programme... I am already aware of one programme that ran a few years ago where prisoners were involved in a sort of a horticultural mini-company they formed themselves by producing garden and household plants.

Have you costed this? How much would it cost per prisoner, including all necessary security measures? How productive would prisoners be (i.e. how much income would they generate each)? Would the income exceed the cost?

later10 wrote: »

Hardly.

Well if they can't do high tech high value stuff, and they can't do a lot of labour intensive work (because of the possibility of escape or riot with the assistance of sharp instruments), the level of work that they can do is limited. They also can't compete with the sweatshops of asia.

What happened to that horticultural mini company? Did it turn a profit? more importantly, would it turn a profit if the costs of running it included the costs of incarceration?

later10 wrote: »

The daily prisoner population is about 4,000. I would estimate that only about 60% of prisioners would be available for the kind of scheme I am talking about as things stand. The current unemployment figure is 280,000. I really don't think that's a huge dent. This is not an unemployment issue.

It might not seem that big a dent to you, but it would make a massive difference to the people who work in horticulture (or whatever) who are undercut. Unless you can find something that can be exported only, or which is not currently being done in Ireland but would be cost effective to do, I can only see this running into problems.

Wouldn't a more sensible option be to extend the community service programme?

DubiousV

later10 wrote: »

Improved living facilties, mainly. I haven't really thought about minor renumeration or some other sort of work-reward system but it would make sense to facilitate such a thing on a reasonably small scale. It wouldn't necessarily be monetary reqard, more like improved accomodation or increased allowance for the use of recreational facilities.

My last time on the inside of a prison was at the height of the economic boom and things were desperate then. from what I have heard now, and from what the Inspector of the Prisons Mr Justice O'Brien has reported, facilities have become far worse and vocational, teaching and auxiliary staff are simply not being replaced once they quit (and believe me they tend to quit), This has led to the cancellation of worksjhops and educational facilities en masse, and that's if they even existed in the first place which in some cases like at St Pat's Juveniles, they never did.

yes, but the long term costs would be significantly offset by the provision of (basically) free labour for the company.
I would expect manufacturing and processing companies in the main to be interested in this sort of programme... I am already aware of one programme that ran a few years ago where prisoners were involved in a sort of a horticultural mini-company they formed themselves by producing garden and household plants.

Hardly.

The daily prisoner population is about 4,000. I would estimate that only about 60% of prisioners would be available for the kind of scheme I am talking about as things stand. The current unemployment figure is 280,000. I really don't think that's a huge dent. This is not an unemployment issue.

Just a couple of quick points, the Inspector of prisons is Judge Michael Reilly, and his reports are publicly available from the Inspectors website.

Penal servitude was abolished years ago, prisoners must be compensated for work they do on top of their gratuity already paid.

A very laudable and succesful farm is already in operation at one of the countries open prisons, including supplying a lot of animals to Bothar.

Please tell me where you pulled that 60% figure out of? Prison is a very segregated environment for several reasons, and putting 60% of the population of any closed prison together would be completely impractical imho.

Zambia

Dublin itself could supply enough repeat customers for any Private Prison.

Would private prisons be better run ? Well for one a private firm is not the bottomless cash pit the state is in regards labour and wages. There would at least be a continous attempt to reduce the cost of running prisons as opposed to letting it spiral.

Did anyone else hear the old tale that the prison officer once upon a time used to re-work their roster so one guard would go sick one week allowing another to cover him on OT then the next week they would switch and do the reverse . Maximising the wages earned.

later12

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

That is due to underfunding. If a private company were to offer all those services, it would cost the state more than they are presently paying.

Why? The company I would envisage providing the skills would be providing employment skills in return for free labour. I don't envisage a scheme whereby we pay private companies to source technical instructors, for example.

I would have no problem with the state retaining its formal educational services on a demand basis. But if you know anything at all about the prison population you will know that demand for skills training is far more popular than a demand for tuition in Greek, Mathematics or Spanish. These guys, by and large, tend to enjoy being taught to do something practical.

Put another way, why can't they pay for those extra services now within the public sector, other than a generalised rant at public sector inefficiencies.

Put simply, cost. It is too expensive and there is no will to do it on behalf of the public nor on behalf of the Minister. Increasing the costs of the prisons is not a smart election move. Outsourcing facilities and delegation of responsibility for certain in-house facilities could very well be, however.

Have you costed this?

I was home on my Christmas holidays reading the original report on one hand and watching boards on the other when I posted this thread. Eh, no, jonnyskeleton, I have not had access to the Minister's prison detention statistics nor information on private contractors potential costs in that time.

How productive would prisoners be (i.e. how much income would they generate each)? Would the income exceed the cost?

The cost would be a capital expense i.e. the cost of the company to locate. The state could incentivise that cost by providing the company, or companies, with a tax break on the construction of the facilities. Otherwise the state could provide the construction and rent the accomodation facilities as happens elsewhere. After that, the company have free labour. I think the financial attraction of free labour is potentially very clear.

they can't do a lot of labour intensive work (because of the possibility of escape or riot with the assistance of sharp instruments)

Do you think prisoners never have access to sharp objects? Really? Some of these guys handle chainsaws and axes in Castlerea. In any event not all labour intensive manufacturing requires the use of sharp and mobile objects... packaging, food production, other processing, machinists work, mushroom picking, garden plant processing, all of the above... do I really need to make you a list?

They also can't compete with the sweatshops of asia.

Nobody suggested they would.

What happened to that horticultural mini company? Did it turn a profit? more importantly, would it turn a profit if the costs of running it included the costs of incarceration?

Well it wasn't designed to generate a profit, it mostly provided garden and window boxes for a local garden centre. It wasn't a unique organisation within the system. But the point is that it could have raised considerable money if it were capable of reaching a higher production output.

It might not seem that big a dent to you, but it would make a massive difference to the people who work in horticulture (or whatever) who are undercut.

I really don't think that it would actually. Nevertheless if you think that providing up to 3,000 prisoners with work would decimate other industries and damage the abilities of 280,000 unemployed to find work you're obviously free to hold that opinion.

Wouldn't a more sensible option be to extend the community service programme?

How would that generate profits to fund improved prison facilities or aid prison (and prisoner) reform? As far as I can see all you're suggesting is incarcarating less criminals. I'm not convinced that this really is a good idea actually.

johnnyskeleton

Zambia232 wrote: »

Would private prisons be better run ? Well for one a private firm is not the bottomless cash pit the state is in regards labour and wages. There would at least be a continous attempt to reduce the cost of running prisons as opposed to letting it spiral.

I'm not so sure. The private company would simply keep coming back to the government asking for more money because of wage demands, increased costs etc. The government can't really refuse these demands, nor can they let a private company that runs the prisons go to the wall. So while in theory it could work better, in practice it would be the same if not worse, as is the experience with all Irish PPPs e.g. East Link Toll Bridge.

later12

DubiousV wrote: »

Just a couple of quick points, the Inspector of prisons is Judge Michael Reilly, and his reports are publicly available from the Inspectors website.

Indeed, I believe I referenced some of his and Dermot Kinlen's reports already. Edit: If I posted Ryan then I did of course mean Reilly; typo.

Please tell me where you pulled that 60% figure out of? Prison is a very segregated environment for several reasons, and putting 60% of the population of any closed prison together would be completely impractical imho.

By taking into account prisoners who would be on long enough sentances to really benefit and deducting certain types of prisoner such as protected prisoners and prisoners in unsuitable locations from the scheme.

johnnyskeleton

later10 wrote: »

Why? The company I would envisage providing the skills would be providing employment skills in return for free labour. I don't envisage a scheme whereby we pay private companies to source technical instructors, for example.

Wait, I thought you wanted the entire prison system to be privatised and for private companies to stump up to create new prison buildings. Now it turns out, you want private companies to go into the existing buildings and set up there, or alternatively create some form of day release. Neither option is without cost to the private company.

later10 wrote: »

I would have no problem with the state retaining its formal educational services on a demand basis. But if you know anything at all about the prison population you will know that demand for skills training is far more popular than a demand for tuition in Greek, Mathematics or Spanish. These guys, by and large, tend to enjoy being taught to do something practical.

Can you be ab it more specific about the type of work and training that would be provided, rather than just stereotypes of the type of "guys" who end up in prison.

later10 wrote: »

The cost would be a capital expense i.e. the cost of the company to locate. The state could incentivise that cost by providing the company, or companies, with a tax break on the construction of the facilities. Otherwise the state could provide the construction and rent the accomodation facilities as happens elsewhere. After that, the company have free labour. I think the financial attraction of free labour is potentially very clear.

Right. Well, isn't it odd that no one has tried this before?

later10 wrote: »

Do you think prisoners never have access to sharp objects? Really? Some of these guys handle chainsaws and axes in Castlerea. In any event not all labour intensive manufacturing requires the use of sharp and mobile objects... packaging, food production, other processing, machinists work, mushroom picking, garden plant processing, all of the above... do I really need to make you a list?

All of which could pose a security risk, whether as to access to such implements, or alternatively because they would be out in a field which makes it easier to escape.

later10 wrote: »

How would that generate profits to fund improved prison facilities or aid prison (and prisoner) reform? As far as I can see all you're suggesting is incarcarating less criminals. I'm not convinced that this really is a good idea actually.

Well your ideas are lacking in fairly basic knowledge of prison security and also are not that great on business sense. But sure who am I to criticise?

I'll tell you what, go out and send your business plan to the governor of mountjoy or wherever your nearest prison is. Tell them that you want to set the prisoners to work for free. See just how far you get.

later12

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Wait, I thought you wanted the entire prison system to be privatised and for private companies to stump up to create new prison buildings

No, I mentioned earlier that I think it is preferable for the state to retain ownership of an overall prison compound and to retain auxiliary medical, psychiatric and security services, as this is important in case a company decides to pull out of the scheme or goes into liquidation. If you assumed something else to be my position then that was your own mistake.

Now it turns out, you want private companies to go into the existing buildings and set up there, or alternatively create some form of day release. Neither option is without cost to the private company.

I have never suggested this would be without cost to the company. Again, if you thought so you were of course incorrect. The point is that the cost would be a capital building cost or rental cost whereby the company could rent accomodation from the state and provide the prisoners with work skills and exposure to industry in retaurn for effectively zero salary, PRSI and taxation cost. In theory, the prisoners could even help to build the thing.

Can you be ab it more specific about the type of work and training that would be provided, rather than just stereotypes of the type of "guys" who end up in prison.

That would vary from company to company. A horticultural company would expose prisoners to skills in that particular industry, a packaging company could provide them with skills in machinery, a building supplies company with skills releavnt to that industry, and so on.

Right. Well, isn't it odd that no one has tried this before?

Private prisons are not uncommon internationally. This has precedent.

All of which could pose a security risk, whether as to access to such implements, or alternatively because they would be out in a field which makes it easier to escape.

We already have prisoners working in fields, we already have prisoners using sharp implements. I'm guessing your exposure to the prisons is not an entirely comprehensive one.

later12

DubiousV wrote: »

putting 60% of the population of any closed prison together would be completely impractical imho.

What about free association in Dochas? Where even mothers with their babies can befriend women who have proven extremely violent? It actually met the approval of the Inspector of Prisons in one of his most recent reports

johnnyskeleton

later10 wrote: »

Private prisons are not uncommon internationally. This has precedent.
We already have prisoners working in fields, we already have prisoners using sharp implements. I'm guessing your exposure to the prisons is not an entirely comprehensive one.

Yeah, in minimum security open prisons or else in training units, for people who are committed to rehabilitation. Both public sector innovations, both run for the prisoners' benefit, not for the profit of a private company.

But what you are proposing is to extend this scheme (which is suitable for a very small minority of the prison population deemed to be suitable for an open prison or for a training unit) to the majority of the prison population. Trying to claim greater knowledge of the prison system does not get you over that significant problem.

In any event, you are no longer proposing private prisons, you are advocating that the prison lets people out to private companies to work for free.

Het-Field

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Why can't that be provided through the current system? These things cost money you know. Also, what private companies do you expect to take this up? Are hardend criminals going to go off and make high tech computer equipment or whatever the new buzzword is? When there are few jobs going, and lots of unemployed, do you really want to take paid jobs out of the economy.



That would only be adding a profit motive into the courts system. The prison authorities do not control the numbers of persons coming in.



What can private companies do that the public sector would not? We have no money to do any of this stuff as it is. A private company would only do the same, but will insist on a bit of profit for themselves. It would, just like all PPPs, be a big fiasco.

What can a private company do that the prison services currently cannot?

EDIT:

2 further observations:
1) assuming you can get some kind of work for prisoners to do, can they really do it to such an extent as to make prison self financing. It costs in excess of €70k to house a prisoner in Ireland, but even in a better run country it would be in excess of €40k.

2) there are already a number of prisons as described where people can learn skills - training units. There is one in Mountjoy, another in Midlans (I think) and possibly in Castlerea.

Public services suffer from rationalisation. This entails attempts by the provider to get the most out of as little money/effort as possible. This has resulted in overcrowded, decrepid, vermin infested prisons. It has also ensured that any chance of prisoner development is taken away as the first item on the prison's agenda is to manage the powder keg that is the prison in a peacful manner. This ensures that training, education and personal development is of subordinate importance. The state simply cannot provide the services you seek. This is borne out by the evidence before our eyes.

Private Prisons usually involve the state paying a private security firm to look after prisoners. As such, the profit is made by virture of the deal struck between the state and the security firm. By classifying criminals it can become a very simple task to alleviate the over-burdened prison population. The non-violent, non addicted, educated, first timer, small timer, white collar style of criminal should go to the private prison. This ensures that the most managable prisoners will be placed out of the state system, and will not obstruct the state's work in terms of the salvation of those criminals who labour under addication, educational failure, and recidivism. Obviously those who are beyond rehabilitation must be kept in the public system.

DubiousV

later10 wrote: »

What about free association in Dochas? Where even mothers with their babies can befriend women who have proven extremely violent? It actually met the approval of the Inspector of Prisons in one of his most recent reports

Indeed, and personally I don't agree with that method of incarceration but to be fair, it is called the dochas centre, not Mountjoy Womens prison, how many women have their babies in Limerick prisons womens wing?

johnnyskeleton

Het-Field wrote: »

Public services suffer from rationalisation. This entails attempts by the provider to get the most out of as little money/effort as possible. This has resulted in overcrowded, decrepid, vermin infested prisons. It has also ensured that any chance of prisoner development is taken away as the first item on the prison's agenda is to manage the powder keg that is the prison in a peacful manner. This ensures that training, education and personal development is of subordinate importance. The state simply cannot provide the services you seek. This is borne out by the evidence before our eyes.

The problems come from underfunding. Specifically underfunding of the capital budget. Ok, there are also administrative issues such as the mess that is Thornton Hall, but I don't think that private prisons would solve all such problems.

Het-Field wrote: »

Private Prisons usually involve the state paying a private security firm to look after prisoners. As such, the profit is made by virture of the deal struck between the state and the security firm. By classifying criminals it can become a very simple task to alleviate the over-burdened prison population. The non-violent, non addicted, educated, first timer, small timer, white collar style of criminal should go to the private prison. This ensures that the most managable prisoners will be placed out of the state system, and will not obstruct the state's work in terms of the salvation of those criminals who labour under addication, educational failure, and recidivism. Obviously those who are beyond rehabilitation must be kept in the public system.

So why can't we increase the number of places in open prisons maintained by the state.

The system you propose could end up like the rent allowance system where there are decent landlords offering a good service on the one hand, and slum lords on the other.

Have you costed the benefits of a private as opposed to public prison?

Het-Field

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

The problems come from underfunding. Specifically underfunding of the capital budget. Ok, there are also administrative issues such as the mess that is Thornton Hall, but I don't think that private prisons would solve all such problems.



So why can't we increase the number of places in open prisons maintained by the state.

The system you propose could end up like the rent allowance system where there are decent landlords offering a good service on the one hand, and slum lords on the other.

Have you costed the benefits of a private as opposed to public prison?

You fall into the trap of assuming that increasing expenditure will ensure increased efficiencies and increased standards. That is simply wrong. You cannot guarantee that increased funding would be used for increases in prison places and increased prison facilities. It is more likely that the money would be flitted away in administrative costs. As such you can fund it to the hilt, but rationalisation will still be a major issue.

Private Prisons could be operated on the basis of minimum standards. The State could withdraw their support for private prisons which fail to meet these standards. That would encourage the private element to "keep their house in order".

I have not costed anything. However, it is guaranteed that private prisons would alleviate over-population as those who are of no risk, but who transgress the law could be sent there.

WalterMitty

costs too much to emprison someone here. several tiems the cost of doing so in uk /usa. The prison service here are vastly overpaid.

Rodin

later10 wrote: »

"
Do we owe it to the prison population and to our society to privatise our prisons?

The prison population are owed nothing. They're lucky we feed them

Paulzx

Het-Field wrote: »

Private Prisons usually involve the state paying a private security firm to look after prisoners. As such, the profit is made by virture of the deal struck between the state and the security firm. By classifying criminals it can become a very simple task to alleviate the over-burdened prison population. The non-violent, non addicted, educated, first timer, small timer, white collar style of criminal should go to the private prison. This ensures that the most managable prisoners will be placed out of the state system, and will not obstruct the state's work in terms of the salvation of those criminals who labour under addication, educational failure, and recidivism. Obviously those who are beyond rehabilitation must be kept in the public system.

So basically all the easily managed, no problem and don't need intensive staff prisoners should be farmed out to private companies to make handy money from while all violent, labour intensive, drug addicted prisoners should be left to publicly paid prison staff in publicly funded prisons.

That's nothing more than cherrypicking the easy profits and leaving the hard stuff in the states lap.

johnnyskeleton

Het-Field wrote: »

You fall into the trap of assuming that increasing expenditure will ensure increased efficiencies and increased standards. That is simply wrong. You cannot guarantee that increased funding would be used for increases in prison places and increased prison facilities. It is more likely that the money would be flitted away in administrative costs. As such you can fund it to the hilt, but rationalisation will still be a major issue.

Private Prisons could be operated on the basis of minimum standards. The State could withdraw their support for private prisons which fail to meet these standards. That would encourage the private element to "keep their house in order".

I have not costed anything. However, it is guaranteed that private prisons would alleviate over-population as those who are of no risk, but who transgress the law could be sent there.

Well to be fair, you cannot guarantee that private prisons wouldn't fall foul to corruption and waste either.