My individual fitness goals and advice on appropriate training to achieve these goals

Zippidy

Mod note: Moved from Supps thread


Fair enough but how long does it take to put on a pound of muscle? When one's main goal is fat loss, not muscle building, surely cardio is the way to go. And what about the other benefits of cardio? There seems to be a big unintentional bias in this forum towards lifting weights as opposed to other forms of exercise. Now, I am still loving all the advice here, but for a fitness newbie the amount of conflicting info out there is staggering.

metamorphosis

Zippidy wrote: »

Fair enough but how long does it take to put on a pound of muscle? When one's main goal is fat loss, not muscle building, surely cardio is the way to go. And what about the other benefits of cardio? There seems to be a big unintentional bias in this forum towards lifting weights as opposed to other forms of exercise. Now, I am still loving all the advice here, but for a fitness newbie the amount of conflicting info out there is staggering.

Id agree there. IMHO do what you enjoy and do what you will stick too. My passion is running and i do a lot of it and as you can imagine im small. Not much of a pick on me. I still do a full body workout 1-2 times a week, usually once if im honest. Between running 5-6 days a week, working on flexability, getting in a full body workout, swimming, and teaching a few spin and circuit classes, i need to recover so i can continue to run and strenght and felx work is important there too.

If fat loss is your main goal imho it is WAY easier to get a a calorie deficit through diet than the 250-300 cals 30min good cardio will give you. As they say, diet = look great with clothes on, weights = make you look good naked. I was 16 stone, now under 10.7 and im just a skinnier version of the 16stone me. Cardio and diet will make you a smaller version of you but wont re-shape majorly your body

But tbh, im a cardio whore. When my goal changes and i no longer want to run, i will set up my goals accordingly.

If you have no interest in definition, getting stronger, getting lean muscle tissue etc, then if you enjoy cardio - go right ahead in my books. Do something that fits your goals, your enjoyment and will get you where you want. 'Starting strength' and getting lean and strong is not EVERYBODYS goal, which seems to come accross as the fix all solution on the this forum too much.

Anyway that's my tuppence worth

Now to slap my wrist for going off topic on the supps thread.


EDIT: also to throw in that if fat loss is your main goal, throwing in resistance training is a good idea. Too much cardio combined with a dietary calorie deficit will affect your muscle mass. Not all the weight you lose will likely to be fat.

Zippidy

ULstudent, can we pick up the topic in a new thread if i start one?

metamorphosis

Zippidy wrote: »

ULstudent, can we pick up the topic in a new thread if i start one?

Moved from Supplements thread.

Note: I'm hoping this thread can be used as a way to discuss people's goals and the training to achieve them. Please remember that not everybody wants to engage in strength training for most of their training, even it is the best way or not to achieve a persons goals. I'm not sure how this discussion will pan out but it would be great to see peoples POV from those that are passionate about weights and and those passionate about cardio etc. I'm hoping I haven't opened a can of worms.

Zippidy

Many thanks to ULStudent.

I'm not hostile to weights at all. My primary, priority goal is to lose 7kg of fat. My second goal is to gain some muscle definition.

So, having consulted the nutrition and diet forum and here, as well as scoobysworkshop.com, I have fixed my diet and am eating at a deficit, mimicking rocky's diet where he ate a deficit but also lots of protein.

Next, I am doing 30 minutes of interval cardio every day on the stationary bicycle in the gym. I am doing this because I have been told that cardio is best when one's main goal is FAT LOSS. The gym instructor also advised me that daily interval cardio would be great (though he said not to eat a deficit, which left me a bit confused, but I opted for the deficit in the end regardless.

Now, on foot of advice here, and because I do want to get some definition to my muscles once the fat is gone, I am doing weights daily right before my cardio in the gym. I use the weight machines, not the free weights.

I am unskilled in the free weights, I don't know the first thing about form, posture or technique, so the machines are what I'm working with.

I do the leg press, ab machine, chest press, shoulder press, low row, arm curl, and I do about 14 reps and three sets of each, or as many as I can manage.

So... what do people think? (btw, cycling machine suits me as it minimises impact on my joints. I have fallen arches so jogging can hurt sometimes. Remember, I don't want to be a bodybuilder, I'm not obsessed with strength, or big huge muscles, but I would like a defined phisique in time for the summer.

Thanks guys.

Jay Farrant CPT

Zippidy wrote: »

Thanks will take a look



I am doing all that and have lost 6kg in two months.



This is what confuses newcomers to fitness. Two people will tell you different things. How can weights possibly be better than 40minutes of good cardio for fat loss?

This website says to concentrate on cardio, that if fat loss is the main goal, cardio is way more important than weights: http://www.scoobysworkshop.com/cardio.htm

The Fact is That LDC (long Distance Cardio) Is one of the worst things for Fat loss . Yes you do burn fat in that 40 mins of running on a treadmill ,but that's it . you body becomes efficient at doing that same run every week or few days , At the end of the day LDC is endurance . Your actually training your body to burn less calories every time you go for a Long run etc . I believe a steady state run in the "Fat Burning Zone" for around 40 mins at 6 km burns on average 300 calories of fat . A lb of Fat contains 3000 calories . So you would have to do a hell of allot of running etc to burn any decent amount of fat .

Now resistance training . OK you burn Sugars While doing it , but you burn fat afterwards whilst repairing etc and the more muscle you have the more calories your going to burn whilst sitting on your couch. (HIGHER BMR)

With any Newbie looking to start Resistance training . They should Push / pull Before Isolating and again Perform big Compound Exercises (Dead lift , Squats, lunges, Bench Press, Dips,Chins) Try and master your body weight to start with (Push ups , Inverted row etc )

Summary Drop the long Cardio and Lift heavy and fast .... With as many Muscles being used at once as possible .

And diet needs to be pretty good (You cant out train a bad Diet unless your very very lucky ) Genetically

nice_guy80

if all you want to do is lose fat?

sort out diet

attend spinning classes 2/3 times a week

Jay Farrant CPT

ULstudent wrote: »

Id agree there. IMHO do what you enjoy and do what you will stick too. My passion is running and i do a lot of it and as you can imagine im small. Not much of a pick on me. I still do a full body workout 1-2 times a week, usually once if im honest. Between running 5-6 days a week, working on flexability, getting in a full body workout, swimming, and teaching a few spin and circuit classes, i need to recover so i can continue to run and strenght and felx work is important there too.

If fat loss is your main goal imho it is WAY easier to get a a calorie deficit through diet than the 250-300 cals 30min good cardio will give you. As they say, diet = look great with clothes on, weights = make you look good naked. I was 16 stone, now under 10.7 and im just a skinnier version of the 16stone me. Cardio and diet will make you a smaller version of you but wont re-shape majorly your body

But tbh, im a cardio whore. When my goal changes and i no longer want to run, i will set up my goals accordingly.

If you have no interest in definition, getting stronger, getting lean muscle tissue etc, then if you enjoy cardio - go right ahead in my books. Do something that fits your goals, your enjoyment and will get you where you want. 'Starting strength' and getting lean and strong is not EVERYBODYS goal, which seems to come accross as the fix all solution on the this forum too much.

Anyway that's my tuppence worth

Now to slap my wrist for going off topic on the supps thread.


EDIT: also to throw in that if fat loss is your main goal, throwing in resistance training is a good idea. Too much cardio combined with a dietary calorie deficit will affect your muscle mass. Not all the weight you lose will likely to be fat.

Nice post .
Thats pritty much bang on . Your not ever going to get lean by performing cardio only . You will shrink like your man has said . IMO I personallt think that Resistance training is the way forward as long term your getting a Lean body .

But if you literally just want to loose fat then a calorie def diet will work .
Down side if you start eating your normall amount of calories after your diet your not going to have the muscle / Higher BMR to Keep that weight off . Permantly.

Mixed it up if you enjoy cardio .:)

Zippidy

Zippidy wrote: »

Many thanks to ULStudent.

I'm not hostile to weights at all. My primary, priority goal is to lose 7kg of fat. My second goal is to gain some muscle definition.

So, having consulted the nutrition and diet forum and here, as well as scoobysworkshop.com, I have fixed my diet and am eating at a deficit, mimicking rocky's diet where he ate a deficit but also lots of protein.

Next, I am doing 30 minutes of interval cardio every day on the stationary bicycle in the gym. I am doing this because I have been told that cardio is best when one's main goal is FAT LOSS. The gym instructor also advised me that daily interval cardio would be great (though he said not to eat a deficit, which left me a bit confused, but I opted for the deficit in the end regardless.

Now, on foot of advice here, and because I do want to get some definition to my muscles once the fat is gone, I am doing weights daily right before my cardio in the gym. I use the weight machines, not the free weights.

I am unskilled in the free weights, I don't know the first thing about form, posture or technique, so the machines are what I'm working with.

I do the leg press, ab machine, chest press, shoulder press, low row, arm curl, and I do about 14 reps and three sets of each, or as many as I can manage.

So... what do people think? (btw, cycling machine suits me as it minimises impact on my joints. I have fallen arches so jogging can hurt sometimes. Remember, I don't want to be a bodybuilder, I'm not obsessed with strength, or big huge muscles, but I would like a defined phisique in time for the summer.

Thanks guys.

Jay Farrant CPT wrote: »

The Fact is That LDC (long Distance Cardio) Is one of the worst things for Fat loss . Yes you do burn fat in that 40 mins of running on a treadmill ,but that's it . you body becomes efficient at doing that same run every week or few days , At the end of the day LDC is endurance . Your actually training your body to burn less calories every time you go for a Long run etc . I believe a steady state run in the "Fat Burning Zone" for around 40 mins at 6 km burns on average 300 calories of fat . A lb of Fat contains 3000 calories . So you would have to do a hell of allot of running etc to burn any decent amount of fat .

Now resistance training . OK you burn Sugars While doing it , but you burn fat afterwards whilst repairing etc and the more muscle you have the more calories your going to burn whilst sitting on your couch. (HIGHER BMR)

With any Newbie looking to start Resistance training . They should Push / pull Before Isolating and again Perform big Compound Exercises (Dead lift , Squats, lunges, Bench Press, Dips,Chins) Try and master your body weight to start with (Push ups , Inverted row etc )

Summary Drop the long Cardio and Lift heavy and fast .... With as many Muscles being used at once as possible .

And diet needs to be pretty good (You cant out train a bad Diet unless your very very lucky ) Genetically

nice_guy80 wrote: »

if all you want to do is lose fat?

sort out diet

attend spinning classes 2/3 times a week

Jay Farrant CPT wrote: »

Nice post .
Thats pritty much bang on . Your not ever going to get lean by performing cardio only . You will shrink like your man has said . IMO I personallt think that Resistance training is the way forward as long term your getting a Lean body .

But if you literally just want to loose fat then a calorie def diet will work .
Down side if you start eating your normall amount of calories after your diet your not going to have the muscle / Higher BMR to Keep that weight off . Permantly.

Mixed it up if you enjoy cardio .:)

Okay, so I am doing some resistence training as per my post above, and I do it before my cardio. Is this adequate? Also, should I hit the weight machines every day or stay off them every second day?

I appear quite slim now when dressed and people are saying 'wow' to me, 'you've lost a lot of weight'.
But under my shirt it's a different story - still have moobs and a belly, which is why I feel I need to lose another stone of fat at least, get my body fat level down. But I'm afraid I'll look like a weed. Hence the weights per advice here. My diet is fixed now anyway, I'm eating no junk whatsoever and eating at least 1g protein per body pound.
I have noticed strength gains, especially with the chest press machine by the way. Can people offer me some advice on how to use the weight machines more effectively, based on the info I gave above, i.e. I'm uncomfortable with free weights.

Many thanks

Inspector Coptoor

This time last year, I was 119kg.
After training pretty hard all year, I finished up at 99.4kg before my Christmas blow out.

I found it easy to lose the first 10kg of the 20kg I lost. I just sorted out my diet and trained the way I was training (mostly weight training, was doing Wendlers 5/3/1) I lost that 10kg in 6 weeks or so.

I didnt really lose anymore until August when I started doing proper conditioning sessions which nearly all involved moving some kind of weight, ie prowler pushing or KB swinging or other blocks

My training now looks like this:
Monday - Strength
Tuesday - Conditioning
Wednesday - off
Thursday - Strength
Friday- Conditioning
Sat/Sun - 1 day off and maybe 1 day hitting random muscle groups like calves, traps etc

Nearly every bit of training I did I had some sort of a weight in my hand and I will NEVER do any prolonged steady state cardio "in the fat burning zone" again.

My diet now is high protein, medium fat and low carb

Zippidy

Thanks Liam. What is the difference between strengthening and conditioning weights?

I must emphasise again that i do cardio because it has lots of benefits other than fat loss. Interval cardio is supposed to be great for fat burning.

I enjoy doing the chest press and low row machines in particular and will enquire about receiving instruction in free weights..

Again, how often should I use the machine weights... and it would help me if you could explain the answer a bit in terms of what happens when the body tries to recover from a weights session.

Also, can I ask, if I were to for example continue my weight routine as i described it above, and eat very well with no junk and alcohol (which is what I've been doing for the past three months with determination to continue), how long would it take, on average to put on 1lb of muscle?

Once I get my bodyfat down to a respectable percentage (where you can see my abs), I'd like to increase my muscle mass and consequently my weight, not by an enormous amount, but by maybe 2 or 3kg.

So, in summary: I need to lose about 7kg of fat and I want to add about 2 or 3kg of muscle. I think I will have lost that fat by May or June... as for the muscle, how long would that take to grow, based on the routine I described earlier in the thread?

Inspector Coptoor

Zippidy wrote: »

Thanks Liam. What is the difference between strengthening and conditioning weights?

Strength sessions involve doing one set at a time usually with heavier weights and with lower repititions.
i.e. at the moment, I'd be doing 8 sets of 3 in the deadlift.

Compare that to a conditioning block which might take 10 minutes and would generally have something like exertion fo 20-30 seconds and rest for 30-40 seconds.
ie push a prowler 10 times in 10 mins or swing a kettle bell for 20 seconds, rest for 40 seconds and do it ten times, that kind of thing.

Zippidy wrote: »

I enjoy doing the chest press and low row machines in particular and will enquire about receiving instruction in free weights..

this is a really good idea

Zippidy wrote: »

Again, how often should I use the machine weights... and it would help me if you could explain the answer a bit in terms of what happens when the body tries to recover from a weights session.

You could try doing your sessions as I outlined above and see how you get on.

When you lift weights, you break down the muscle tissue, you need recovery time to allow the muscle tissue to heal itself, then when you train again, you tear it apart some more.
The body adapts to the level of stress placed on it.
if you train a lot aerobocially, you will become skinner with less muscle mass - think long distance runner
If you train a lot anaerobically with power movements, you will become more muscular - think olympic lifter or 100m sprinter.

This is a very very simplified version, most people would be happy with something in the middle

Zippidy wrote: »

Also, can I ask, if I were to for example continue my weight routine as i described it above, and eat very well with no junk and alcohol (which is what I've been doing for the past three months with determination to continue), how long would it take, on average to put on 1lb of muscle?

not being smart, but it depends.
depends on how much you train, how heavy you lift, how many good fats you eat which help boost testosterone production and how much protein you ingest and the digest to aid in recovery of the muscles.

Zippidy wrote: »

So, in summary: I need to lose about 7kg of fat and I want to add about 2 or 3kg of muscle. I think I will have lost that fat by May or June... as for the muscle, how long would that take to grow, based on the routine I described earlier in the thread?

For every 4kg, you lose, roughly 3kg of that will be fat and 1kg will be muscle.
From that, if you lose 7kg of fat, you will have lost 2.4kg of muscle, therefore, you would actually be looking at gaining 5.4kg of muscle to reach your target.

and once again, the answer to your question, like most things in biology, is, it depends.

The best advice I can give you is to train hard ~ 4 times a week using a mixture of weight training and conditioning, try to eat well, reduce alcohol intake, have a treat the odd time and dont try to over analyze things.

Most of the clever sounding stuff in this post came from Will Heffernan

Zippidy

Liam Henners257 wrote: »

For every 4kg, you lose, roughly 3kg of that will be fat and 1kg will be muscle.
From that, if you lose 7kg of fat, you will have lost 2.4kg of muscle, therefore, you would actually be looking at gaining 5.4kg of muscle to reach your target.

Thanks for the great reply. I'm really surprised by the fact that I could lose 25% muscle. I want to avoid this at all costs and only lose fat. This is why although I eat at about a 600 cal deficit, I am doing weights and taking in about 180g protein a day at intervals (i weigh 167lbs)... I had hoped that by doing this i would lose fat but gain muscle at the same time. So some muscle loss is unavoidable during fat loss?

Inspector Coptoor

Zippidy wrote: »

So some muscle loss is unavoidable during fat loss?

It can be done but it's like the holy grail of the fitness industry, very hard to find and even harder to do for a prolonged period of time.

Pick one goal, i.e. fat loss and go for it properly.

when you;ve lost the fat you wanna lose, change the goal to hypertrophy (muscle building) and go for it properly.

Dont be a slave to 2 masters - Jim Wendler

Zippidy

I found this brilliant discussion on muscle loss here: http://www.askscooby.com/losing-weight-and-getting-6-pack-abs/the-myth-about-'burning-muscle'-15354/