Sinn Fein north and south what-if

Oisintarrant · 28-12-2010 04:11PM #1

Im not particularly graced with much political knowledge, but I just thought what-if Sinn Fein (as the only common party in the North and South) somehow got voted in to both governments at the same time. Would this ultimately make the 32 county Ireland, since the same powers that be in both the north and south sinn fein parties, although seperate in their own right, control both parties?!
Just a few quick notes to make. Im not a Sinn Fein follower, or any other for that matter at present. And if this has been discussed before, Id be grateful of any help linking to it. Really it was just a thought that popped into my head Id like an answer to! Thanks for reading.

dsmythy · 28-12-2010 04:18PM

I think that scenario is a million miles off for now but I suppose in theory they might take it as a mandate for a referendum at least.

Wolfe Tone · 28-12-2010 04:19PM

As much as I would like to think so, no. Would be more cross border consensus though.

amacachi · 28-12-2010 04:19PM

Would 10% of the vote in the bigger country and about 30% in the smaller country really be a "mandate" for a referendum?

dsmythy · 28-12-2010 04:22PM

amacachi wrote: »

Would 10% of the vote in the bigger country and about 30% in the smaller country really be a "mandate" for a referendum?

It depends what the OP is asking here. If he means Sinn Fein being the actual government in the far future of both the North and South then obviously yes. If he means the next election results they're going to get then obviously no.

deise go deo · 28-12-2010 04:24PM

The agreements of the peace process(GFA etc) mark out clearly how unification can be achieved. There has to be a referendum in NI on unification. There can only be unification if the majority in NI vote for it.
I have heard that SF are planing to call for a referendum in 2016, Personally I think it unlikely that there will be a majority in favor of Unification in 2016 but it will be close, the census next year should give a good indication of just how close.

SF being in Government in the south and North at the same time dosent really mean anything for Unification as there still has to be a referendum in NI. However unification would be get more attention in the south if SF were in government, and they would most likely draw up a report to plan the how unification could be put into effect should there be a yes vote in NI.

dlofnep · 28-12-2010 04:33PM

There is a big difference with regards to powers between Stormont and Leinster House. In Stormont, Sinn Féin cannot influence fiscal matters (taxation, budget allocation, etc..), foreign policy or cultural matters (Irish language act, etc..).

So if SF made up for example, a minority part of Government in the south, and held the role of first minister in the north - not alot would change, as the roles of first minister and deputy first minister are identical.

It would be good for Sinn Féin to have some influence in both the north and south with regards to Government, but ultimately - until British rule in the north ends, they cannot at any point influence important matters.

The only thing that will change that is a majority vote from nationalists. Whether that happens in 10 years or 30 years is very hard to determine, but the trend is heavily towards nationalism.

Oisintarrant · 28-12-2010 04:34PM

Im just kind of putting it out there as a possibility. In the real world, the chances of it happening are ridiculously small, however if both SF north and SF south were in government, would unification and referendum matter a bit? Since eventhough you still have a north gov and south gov, if theyre run by the same guys, then would they be able to rule both sides of the fence making the island ultimately governed by one group.

Just think if FF had a party in the north, and were in power up there and here.

edit.. dlofnep.. you posted as I was writing sorry. So does any ruling party in the North have power to change taxation budget alloc etc?or is it just sinn fein that would not be allowed to?

deise go deo · 28-12-2010 04:56PM

No, the budget for NI is given to them by the UK, They can spend it how they wish but they(Stormont) Have no say in how much they get. As for SF in Gov North and South, The political structures are different, They could increase cross border co-operation but they would still have no say in major issues in NI like tax policy as that is dealt with in London.

Only a referendum can Unify Ireland, SF in Government could not just go ahead and do it by themselves.

dlofnep · 28-12-2010 05:01PM

Oisintarrant wrote: »

edit.. dlofnep.. you posted as I was writing sorry. So does any ruling party in the North have power to change taxation budget alloc etc?or is it just sinn fein that would not be allowed to?

Westminster allocates the budget. Stormont agrees on where it is spent.

oscarBravo · 28-12-2010 09:20PM

"What-if" scenarios are not what Political Theory is about. Moved to Politics.

Iwasfrozen · 28-12-2010 10:43PM

It wouldn't change very much, if anything in the North. As the posters before me have said it will take a majority vote from nationalists in the north to unify Ireland.

KeithAFC · 28-12-2010 11:22PM

No. The GFA is crystal clear.

OhNoYouDidn't · 29-12-2010 02:54AM

KeithAFC wrote: »

No. The GFA is crystal clear.

On what?

PomBear · 29-12-2010 02:59AM

amacachi wrote: »

Would 10% of the vote in the bigger country and about 30% in the smaller country really be a "mandate" for a referendum?

All other Governmental Parties in Dublin as well as SDLP claim to want a united Ireland also

deise go deo · 29-12-2010 02:03PM

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

On what?

On the process for Unification, There has to be a majority in favor of unification in NI in a referendum.

KeithAFC · 29-12-2010 03:37PM

Still amazing how people don't understand the terms of the GFA.

OhNoYouDidn't · 29-12-2010 04:19PM

KeithAFC wrote: »

Still amazing how people don't understand the terms of the GFA.

Took the words right out of my mouth.

The procedure for a referendum on a UI is clear to everyone except you.

Het-Field · 29-12-2010 04:35PM

No.

Sinn Fein are not four square on policy in the North and in the South. In the North Sinn Fein are dead centre on most things, and are a populist party. In the ROI, Sinn Fein are a staunch leftist party. Until these differences are ironed out I feel Sinn Fein will be a very divided force.

OhNoYouDidn't · 29-12-2010 04:43PM

Het-Field wrote: »

No.

Sinn Fein are not four square on policy in the North and in the South. In the North Sinn Fein are dead centre on most things, and are a populist party. In the ROI, Sinn Fein are a staunch leftist party. Until these differences are ironed out I feel Sinn Fein will be a very divided force.

In the 6 counties, SF were very much on the left until they got into government. Now they are dead centre. Surely the logic is that the minute they get into power in the south, they will move to the centre too?

Het-Field · 29-12-2010 04:46PM

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

In the 6 counties, SF were very much on the left until they got into government. Now they are dead centre. Surely the logic is that the minute they get into power in the south, they will move to the centre too?

It depends on the role Sinn Fein down south would see themselves playing in any Government they may form. If they hit dead centre then surely they have no role to play in Government over and beyond what any other party can do ? This would guarantee electoral meltdown as it has for the PDs and the Greens.

KeithAFC · 29-12-2010 06:21PM

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Took the words right out of my mouth.

The procedure for a referendum on a UI is clear to everyone except you.

lol. No its not. I ain't the one who started this stupid thread. If people understood the terms of the GFA, this thread would not of been started.

I fully understand the terms.

dlofnep · 29-12-2010 06:32PM

Het-Field wrote: »

No.

Sinn Fein are not four square on policy in the North and in the South. In the North Sinn Fein are dead centre on most things, and are a populist party.

Er, no they are not.

the groutch · 30-12-2010 10:09AM

it will happen in 2024

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEg52Dtq2e0

Bottle_of_Smoke · 30-12-2010 04:11PM

If Sinn Fein held every seat in Stormont and the Dail it would make no difference to the border question. That is why nationalist/unionist voting pacts were so silly. It is up to the people to decide full stop

OhNoYouDidn't · 30-12-2010 04:44PM

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

If Sinn Fein held every seat in Stormont and the Dail it would make no difference to the border question. That is why nationalist/unionist voting pacts were so silly. It is up to the people to decide full stop

But it would certainly imply a mandate to hold the referendum...

Bottle_of_Smoke · 30-12-2010 05:41PM

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

But it would certainly imply a mandate to hold the referendum...

Of course, I just thought it a good way to show the OP how SF being in any kind of power makes no difference to a UI

imme · 30-12-2010 06:10PM

The simple fact of SF being in government north and south wouldn't lead to anything.

They're involved in power sharing in NI.

If they were in government (I think this is highly highly unlikely in the near future) in the republic they'd be in a coalition government.

Sinn Fein is in fact 2 different parties imo. They keep spouting this 'one island - one party' stuff, but they're very different parties north and south, such is life.

dlofnep · 30-12-2010 06:21PM

imme wrote: »

Sinn Fein is in fact 2 different parties imo. They keep spouting this 'one island - one party' stuff, but they're very different parties north and south, such is life.

Eh, wrong.

Same leadership. Same Ard Chomhairle. Same Ard Fheis. Policies voted on by the same people.

How exactly are they different parties in the north and south? Specifics.

imme · 30-12-2010 06:58PM

dlofnep wrote: »

Eh, wrong.

Same leadership. Same Ard Chomhairle. Same Ard Fheis. Policies voted on by the same people.

How exactly are they different parties in the north and south? Specifics.

"eh wrong", gee thanks for correcting me. that made me laugh, thanks :rolleyes:

same leadership?, there's a SF leader in the Assembly in NI, Martin McGuinness. There's a SF leader in the Dail, Caoimhin O'Caoilean.
There's a party president of SF, Gerry Adams.
They seem to coming down with leaders for such a small party.

I've felt for some time that SF is in fact 2 parties, one party in NI and a different party in the republic.

If a party operates over 2 distinct jurisdictions with differing political and legal systems I don't see how they can be one party.

In NI recently SF voted for Billions of cuts in the budget. In the south SF was against the IMF/EU/UK bailout. Yet they didn't have a convincing alternative. I guess they didn't want reality to dent their new found popularity.

In this two situations SF showed itself to be 2 parties, one policy of economic stringency in NI and opposition to cuts in the republic.

dlofnep · 30-12-2010 07:34PM

imme wrote: »

thanks for correcting me.

You're welcome. Anytime.

imme wrote: »

same leadership?, there's a SF leader in the Assembly in NI, Martin McGuinness. There's a SF leader in the Dail, Caoimhin O'Caoilean.
There's a party president of SF, Gerry Adams.

Yes - the same leadership. Gerry Adams is the president of Sinn Féin. The Ard Chomhairle consists of Sinn Féin politicians from across the 32 counties. Your comments lead me to believe that you clearly are ill-informed when it comes to the make-up of Sinn Féin leadership, and indeed - with regards to how policies are formed.

imme wrote: »

I've felt for some time that SF is in fact 2 parties, one party in NI and a different party in the republic.

I'm sure you feel alot of things. That doesn't make them a matter of fact.

imme wrote: »

If a party operates over 2 distinct jurisdictions with differing political and legal systems I don't see how they can be one party.

Because they are one party. It's irrelevant if they operate in two different jurisdictions. The members and politicians that makeup Sinn Féin have the same political ideologies and aspirations. The president and vice-president come from Belfast and Dublin. The Ard Chomhairle is represented on an island-wide basis. There is a single Ard Fheis where all delegates from across the Island vote, and define Sinn Féin policy.

imme wrote: »

In NI recently SF voted for Billions of cuts in the budget.

That is incorrect.

Sinn Féin did not vote for cuts in the budget as Sinn Féin. That was decided by the British Government. Sinn Féin does not have the power to influence the budget allocation for the north. Cuts are made by the British Government, to which Sinn Féin and the DUP subsequently have to agree on where the spending occurs. They do not have a say on taxation or the budgetary allowance, and as such did not have the ability to determine the budget.

imme wrote: »

In the south SF was against the IMF/EU/UK bailout. Yet they didn't have a convincing alternative.

It seemed to be convincing enough for the people of Donegal that voted for Pearse Doherty, and it seems to be convincing enough for the people of Ireland where Sinn Féin has doubled in opinion polls.

Sinn Féin warned that a 4 year plan was too quick - and suggested that a 6 year plan would be more realistic. They were ridiculed, and what happened? The Irish Government was given an extra year to sort out it's fiscal matters as it was shown that they could not meet the 4 year deadline.

Sinn Fein north and south what-if

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