Goodbye (LGBT forum feedback)

deirdre_dub

I just wanted to take this opportunity to say goodbye to the friends I've made here.

Boston wrote:

You're right, you'd never see posts like those aimed at deirde directed towards gay/bisexual members of this forum. The reason is because a thread inviting morons to spout their moronic opinions about sexuality would never get the green liight.

I understand the above (when taken in context) to be saying that because of the existence of the Trans* Questions thread, I (and presumably all the other transgendered members of this forum) can expect to receive particular personal abuse from some of the other members of this forum on any of the threads on this forum. I believe the Trans* Questions thread has merit in that it is attempting to draw questions that "might be stupid or not PC" away from the main forum, so I'm not going to petition for its removal so that I can return to this forum in safety.

I note with dismay that what has apparently been said in the post above about the Trans* Questions thread giving carte blanche to mete out particularly bad treatment to transgender members of this forum has been brought to the attention of a moderator, and nothing (other than an offer to remove Trans* Questions) has been done. I believe the existence of Trans* Questions is just an excuse - nothing more - and hence it would be wrong and terribly counter-productive to remove it.

I'd like to point out that the post above says "you'd never see posts like those ... directed towards gay/bisexual members of this forum". In other words, this forum is intrinsically less safe for transgender members. Speaking for myself, the abuse I've received in recent times is simply too much for me. I'm trying to transition - which is already incredibly difficult - and I need support, not abuse and grief.

I would like to take this opportunity to congratulate those members of boards.ie lgbt who don't want transgender members on this forum.

One of the most interesting posts in the whole recent sorry saga was made on the subject of priviledge (http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showp...5&postcount=38). The fact of the matter is that the transgender community is maybe 20 or more years behind the LGB community. The recent victory of Lydia Foy is our "legalisation of homosexuality" - something that happened for the LGB community 17 years ago. There is a very significant priviledge gap between LGB and T.

I believe one of two things needs to happen. I believe that either the charter for the LGBT forum needs to change so as to incorporate some of the recommendations about handling priviledge referenced in this article. I would add a recommendation - namely that there needs to be at least one transgender moderator.

However, there have already been cries of transgender being "sacred cows" on the LGBT forum, so I'm not at all confident that a change to the charter can be agreed. In which case, I believe that there needs to be a seperate forum for transgender. I would utterly hate to see this happen - by and large the LGB community is very respectful towards transgender people, and there is for the most part great affection indeed in the transgender community towards LGB people, but recent events in the LGBT forum does not fill me with confidence that we can live side-by-side on the internet. I do not believe there are enough LGB people who remember what it was like 20 years ago to make a modern-day LGBT forum work in Ireland.

In the mean time, unless and until this becomes a safe place for me, I'll say goodbye.

Many thanks,
Deirdre.

Links234

Hey Deirdre,

I'm sorry to see this thread, and I understand just how disparaging a lot of the comments have been, especially to you.. but! I don't think it's in anyone's interest if you let anyone bully you off a forum, and I know it started to feel very hostile in here, but I'm gonna stand my ground.

I think we simply need to talk about things here some more. I don't think there's really any need for a transgender moderator, Johnny and Kirby are doing well enough. we just need to maybe update the charter and agree on some new rules. The whole trans questions thread is a very valuable thread and I don't think it's a bad idea at all, just as you say, it shouldn't be used as an excuse for people to act they way they did in other threads.

there are trans people who are coming to this forum for advice, people who are just coming out and are probably extremely scared and in a very fragile place, and they shouldn't be subjected to disparaging or hurtful comments, any more than a LGB person shouldn't be subjected to posts about homosexuality being a sin or unnatural or a deviant lifestyle or whatever, when they're here looking for advice.

I think the cries of trans being a sacred cow isn't really on the level. People have just been saying about trans people 'losing the rag' or whatever as a cover to say something offensive. That way, when they've said something really offensive, they can just say "look, I told you, they'd lose the head!"
it's a tactic, nothing more.

We've gotta talk things out, propose some changes to the charter, and see where that takes us, not rule it out from the get go.

I think we really all assumed that it would be just common sense not to attack/insult/invalidate trans people's identities and that nobody would ever do it on an LGBT forum, and if that needs to go into the charter, then lets talk about that. lets discuss things and see if we can come to an agreement.

sure, there are problems here, and some truly horrible stuff has been said, but leaving isn't gonna solve anything, you're just removing yourself from the problem and the problem is still gonna be there.

Wolfe Tone

If there is a issue with moderation, having someone "from your team" would only make things worse. If anything, a totally impartial moderator would be better, as in draft someone in from elsewhere, if there is an issue, I dont know if there is or not.

bodice ripper

I can't honestly say I can see that anything Boston said was entirely out of line.

a few people have used the "bi now, gay later" line since I have been here. While I did argue with them, I did not expect that they would be banned or a thread closed.

a Bisexual Questions thread would be an offensive nightmare. a "would you ever date a bisexual?" thread would have been a disaster.

I don't think anyone who is a regular poster here has said anything which merits this showboating

deirdre_dub

I'm going to break my self-imposed exile to answer Links.

Links234 wrote: »

I'm sorry to see this thread, and I understand just how disparaging a lot of the comments have been, especially to you.. but! I don't think it's in anyone's interest if you let anyone bully you off a forum, and I know it started to feel very hostile in here, but I'm gonna stand my ground.

I also decided to stand my ground. Unfortunately, I didn't know where my limits were, and I'm now battered and bruised. I'm so sorry that I did that - I'm so sorry that I didn't understand my limits. Please don't let the same happen to you.

I think we simply need to talk about things here some more.

I couldn't agree more. However, there is particular ire on this forum directed towards me personally, so I do not believe I can be involved in those discussions publically.

there are trans people who are coming to this forum for advice, people who are just coming out and are probably extremely scared and in a very fragile place, and they shouldn't be subjected to disparaging or hurtful comments, any more than a LGB person shouldn't be subjected to posts about homosexuality being a sin or unnatural or a deviant lifestyle or whatever, when they're here looking for advice.

As was said in Bostons post, there are things said to me that wouldn't be said to a gay/bisexual member of this forum. So a fragile transgender person is (hopefully!) going to see that and decide that this isn't the best place for them to get support, which it isn't. To such fragile transgender people - please PM myself, Links, or the other strong transgender people you see here, and we can give you guidance and support, and send you in the right direction.

I think the cries of trans being a sacred cow isn't really on the level. People have just been saying about trans people 'losing the rag' or whatever as a cover to say something offensive. That way, when they've said something really offensive, they can just say "look, I told you, they'd lose the head!"
it's a tactic, nothing more.

Agreed.

We've gotta talk things out, propose some changes to the charter, and see where that takes us, not rule it out from the get go.

I didn't actually rule it out - I'm just not hopeful that it can be achieved. Hopefully I am wrong.

I think we really all assumed that it would be just common sense not to attack/insult/invalidate trans people's identities and that nobody would ever do it on an LGBT forum, and if that needs to go into the charter, then lets talk about that. lets discuss things and see if we can come to an agreement.

I think it needs to go beyond not invalidating people's identities. I think there needs to be stuff in there about the tactics you mentioned above as being unacceptable.

sure, there are problems here, and some truly horrible stuff has been said, but leaving isn't gonna solve anything, you're just removing yourself from the problem and the problem is still gonna be there.

I'll be keeping an eye on the forum, and I may PM some people with ideas, but I don't feel quite safe posting my ideas publically.

Thanks.

Louisevb

Gee.. I'm not on here and all hell breaks lose for a few days ..
Firstly chill people.
It's very difficult to put a survey together which is pc for everyone. It's much better to see that the bona fides of the people organising are good even if there are a few tweeks which in an ideal world could be made to keep everyone happy.

Secondly there is no point in getting worked up about pathologising transgendred people on a forum like this... Good to point it out but this forum is not going to change the APA and they are the main body who decide such stuff, so we are stuck with this for now and maybe for some years to come.

Thirdly transitioning is a job in itself where anyone so doing has to look after their own physical and mental state, and when one is dealing with one's own issues sometimes there is a need to step back and focus solely on number one! Transgendered people do not all have an easy passage and unlike being gay or lesbian there are a number of other complicating issues that need to be dealt with, but by an large the basic ground rules apply to both..e.g coming out. confidence issues, work place discrimination are a few where the issues are similar. One reason why T is under the LGBT umbrella.

So what I'm trying to say is that before people get worked up on something, please step back, think carefully, play the handbag and not the lady.
Life is too short to be getting so frustrated

Chuchoter

I think a new charter or new feedback thread is in order. I think the Trans Questions thread should be deleted and replaced with a locked trans FAQ. Questions and answers could be sent to mods and they could be compiled into one big thread. A subforum with restricted access for trans issues might also be an idea, if a bit extreme.

I think discussions on anything other than politics/advice around being trans should not be allowed (like the most recent would you ever? thread). A number of ground rules should be set at the beginning of each thread ie no bringing up chromosomes because thats a stupid argument. The threads should be very strictly moderated and any hint of trans people are just women dressing up as men blah blah blah should be immediately deleted. Its a shame we have to write up basic respectfulness, but there you go. That gets rid of any 'sacred cow' lark. Basically, any questioning of validity of identities is not allowed

In terms of a separate mod, I don't know if thats fair, because in that case we need one for every group and we really don't need 5 and 6 mods for such a small forum. In any case, I like our current mods and I think they're fair but its hard to keep track of threads that get up to 5 pages in a day. Its kind of mean to say they condoned the stuff that was said.

In any case we need to do something fairly drastic fairly soon, because this is my favorite forum and half the place is leaving.

BanzaiBk

I've been lurking the LGB and later LGBT forum for years, 4 as a reg. member, and have seen many a hurtful, ignorant post and thread. I think it is very harsh to question the moderation of the forum. Johnny and Kirby are possibly the most even-handed and fair moderators this forum has had and have done an excellent job in recent weeks even though it was a busy season for everyone personally.

I agree that there needs to be a change in outlook with some posters but let's all keep our toys in the pram and work it out as a group.

Links234

bodice ripper wrote: »

I can't honestly say I can see that anything Boston said was entirely out of line.

what he was saying was a flat out attack on transgender people, spread across 3 different threads. if you can't see how he was completely out of line then that's a serious problem.

imagine someone coming to the forum looking for advice on how they can transition, and someone else coming along and telling them "tough ****, you're male and you'll always be male. biological fact"? and this basically was the guts of what Boston was saying, that transgender people cannot really transition anyway and shouldn't be considered male/female. he also made insults like saying that transgender people are divorced from reality, and went on a huge personal attack against Deirdre, supported by a couple of other people.

there's enough hatred and prejudice in the world for trans people to put up with, we don't need more of it in what's supposed to be a safe space.

the trans questions thread isn't a problem, nobody there, no matter how ignorant or offensive they were being, made attacks on transgender people the way that Boston did. what's worse was that he seemed to think he was completely justified in what he was saying, and that no matter how hurtful, no matter how offensive, and no matter how completely wrong he was, it was all "our fault" for even being upset over it.

Links234

crayolastereo wrote: »

I think a new charter or new feedback thread is in order. I think the Trans Questions thread should be deleted and replaced with a locked trans FAQ. Questions and answers could be sent to mods and they could be compiled into one big thread. A subforum with restricted access for trans issues might also be an idea, if a bit extreme.

I think discussions on anything other than politics/advice around being trans should not be allowed (like the most recent would you ever? thread). A number of ground rules should be set at the beginning of each thread ie no bringing up chromosomes because thats a stupid argument. The threads should be very strictly moderated and any hint of trans people are just women dressing up as men blah blah blah should be immediately deleted. Its a shame we have to write up basic respectfulness, but there you go. That gets rid of any 'sacred cow' lark. Basically, any questioning of validity of identities is not allowed

In terms of a separate mod, I don't know if thats fair, because in that case we need one for every group and we really don't need 5 and 6 mods for such a small forum. In any case, I like our current mods and I think they're fair but its hard to keep track of threads that get up to 5 pages in a day. Its kind of mean to say they condoned the stuff that was said.

In any case we need to do something fairly drastic fairly soon, because this is my favorite forum and half the place is leaving.

I don't agree there, I don't think something drastic needs to happen

the forum was absolutely fine before, the questions thread simply wasn't a problem. banning discussion about trans issues would be absolutely horrible and only make it more of a 'sacred cow' which is what we don't want.

I still welcome questions people want to ask, because the whole issue of transgender is still very much misunderstood, and anything that people can do to demystify things for others is important. there's a whole subreddit for asking transgender questions for example: http://www.reddit.com/r/asktransgender

http://www.reddit.com/r/lgbt/ also gets plenty of people asking general questions about transgender issues. none of that is a problem, and I think we still need to be open to people asking questions. the questions thread is very important, I think! and it's only a problem, because someone decided to make it a problem.

we just need to make a small adjustment to the charter and say that you can't attack or invalidate trans people, or whatever wording is best.

bodice ripper

Links234 wrote: »

what he was saying was a flat out attack on transgender people, spread across 3 different threads. if you can't see how he was completely out of line then that's a serious problem.

imagine someone coming to the forum looking for advice on how they can transition, and someone else coming along and telling them "tough ****, you're male and you'll always be male. biological fact"? and this basically was the guts of what Boston was saying, that transgender people cannot really transition anyway and shouldn't be considered male/female. he also made insults like saying that transgender people are divorced from reality, and went on a huge personal attack against Deirdre, supported by a couple of other people.

there's enough hatred and prejudice in the world for trans people to put up with, we don't need more of it in what's supposed to be a safe space.

the trans questions thread isn't a problem, nobody there, no matter how ignorant or offensive they were being, made attacks on transgender people the way that Boston did. what's worse was that he seemed to think he was completely justified in what he was saying, and that no matter how hurtful, no matter how offensive, and no matter how completely wrong he was, it was all "our fault" for even being upset over it.

That wasn't my reading of it at all. I think you are extrapolating a lot that simple wasn't there.

Chuchoter

Things were fine before because as far as I can remember the subject rarely came up in any major way before the last couple of weeks/months. Its obviously an issue a lot of people are too immature to handle. I'm not saying we ban trans threads at all, I'm just saying anything along the line of 'What is your opinion on transpeople?' does nothing but hurt feelings. As far as I can tell from what people have said about the trans questions thread, its done nothing but give people an excuse to fight. The question thread I think would be far more efficient if you had just lists of FAQs and if you have further questions PM someone as opposed to it just turning into a discussion.

Links234

crayolastereo wrote: »

As far as I can tell from what people have said about the trans questions thread, its done nothing but give people an excuse to fight.

Boston was right about one thing though, he said

Clear boundaries of what is and isn't acceptable with regards to transgendered issue need to be established.

it's a shame that we might have to write up basic respectfulness like you say, but if we do have some clear boundaries (which there isn't right now) then people can't use the trans questions thread as an excuse for anything. I don't think it's worth losing a thread that is an extremely valuable resource because someone might use it as an excuse to be a jerk.

The thread is still ticking along fine even now

Annasopra

crayolastereo wrote: »

As far as I can tell from what people have said about the trans questions thread, its done nothing but give people an excuse to fight.

I honestly don't think it is that much of a problem. There was only 1 person causing a fuss over it.

I agree strongly with Deirdres points that charter reform is needed. I also do think that having an extra Trans moderator is necessary

looksee

In every walk of life there are people with strong opinions, especially on matters that relate to themselves. And in all cases there will be people with opposing opinions, including when the subject under discussion relates to themself.

In the OP's situation the first thing was to contact the publishers of the survey to ask them to reconsider the points that were an issue. If they did not respond, then open the matter up to discussion. In offering opinions first though, the subject was opened up and other people were entitled to respond as vigorously as the OP proposed the argument.

I did not see any personally offensive comments, though the OP chose to take some of the arguments as personal. I am not LGBT but I am a member of a couple of other minority groupings. If I attacked every instance of perceived injustice I would spend my entire life in a state of emotional upheaval. It took me a long time to realise this. Much better to deal calmly with the stuff that matters, and don't open yourself to unwanted opposition in public discussion.

Boards is an excellent way of communicating with other people, but it is not important. It will only possibly make a tiny difference to a small minority of people. It is not worth upsetting yourself over.

Annasopra

deirdre_dub wrote: »

I understand the above (when taken in context) to be saying that because of the existence of the Trans* Questions thread, I (and presumably all the other transgendered members of this forum) can expect to receive particular personal abuse from some of the other members of this forum on any of the threads on this forum.

1 person has stated this - I can assure you that just because 1 person has that opinion that does not mean it is true.

deirdre_dub

OK - this thread is now outside of the lgbt forum, and appears to be under the radar of the most troublesome of the posters (so far), so I'll jump in.

MUSSOLINI wrote:

If there is a issue with moderation, having someone "from your team" would only make things worse. If anything, a totally impartial moderator would be better

How would it make things worse?

crayolastereo wrote:

I think the Trans Questions thread should be deleted and replaced with a locked trans FAQ.

I think there needs to be a locked trans FAQ. For one thing, I've noticed that the question "where are all the trans men" has received more than one airing.

However, people are still going to ask questions. I still think it's better to have a thread which says "look - if you're not sure, ask here, though be warned you will be watched like a hawk" - it's better that people have a place where they can ask than that they go away ignorant out of fear of their question.

crayolastereo wrote:

I think discussions on anything other than politics/advice around being trans should not be allowed (like the most recent would you ever? thread).

The "would you ever" thread was actually a request for support / reassurance (http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=69621782&postcount=71) - I hope you are not suggesting that such threads not be allowed. It was seen as an excuse for trans-bashing by some people.

What you are actually saying (correct me if I'm wrong) is that any thread that might be seen as an excuse for trans-bashing should not be allowed, regardless of the merit of the thread for the transgender community. In other words, the transgender members of the forum shouldn't use "do I need to ask this" as their first criterion for posting a thread, we should use "might this be used as an excuse for trans-bashing". Of course, for almost all threads that a transgender person might start, the answer to the latter question is "yes". This is why I believe a seperate forum for transgender may be needed.

If the above criterion were applied to LGB members, then threads on religion, marriage and adoption would never be allowed.

Links234 wrote:

I don't think something drastic needs to happen

I hate to disagree with you Links, but I do.

crayolastereo wrote:

I'm not saying we ban trans threads at all, I'm just saying anything along the line of 'What is your opinion on transpeople?' does nothing but hurt feelings. As far as I can tell from what people have said about the trans questions thread, its done nothing but give people an excuse to fight.

Why isn't a "would you, as an lgb person, ever adopt" thread one that "does nothing but hurt feelings". Because everyone knows that anyone who disparages LGB people on that thread will automatically get into trouble. The problem isn't the thread or the subject it addresses - the problem is that there isn't a mechanism for dealing with the *ssholes who are going to use a trans-related thread as an excuse for trans-bashing.

Louise and looksee - the issue at hand has nothing whatsoever to do with the survey, it has to do with trans-bashing.

looksee wrote:

I did not see any personally offensive comments

You are one of a very very few, then, who did not. Maybe you weren't looking at all the relevant threads?

liah

bodice ripper wrote: »

That wasn't my reading of it at all. I think you are extrapolating a lot that simple wasn't there.

I'm not transgender or even particularly knowledgeable on the topic (making an honest effort to learn, though) and I certainly saw exactly what Links234 was talking about.

If someone can be arsed giving me links to the threads I'll run through it and quote what could be construed as offensive and detail why. Might be a good idea to have a reference for what's acceptable and what's offensive, and since Boston is more or less the reason for the topic at hand we should discuss what he said that set everyone off.

deirdre_dub

Johnnymcg wrote: »

1 person has stated this - I can assure you that just because 1 person has that opinion that does not mean it is true.

1 person is enough, and there was more than 1 person who held that kind of opinion.

Look - I'm sorry that I'm not stronger than I am. OK? If I'm not strong enough to be a member of boards.ie lgbt, then my decision to leave is the right one.

Annasopra

deirdre_dub wrote: »

the problem is that there isn't a mechanism for dealing with the *ssholes who are going to use a trans-related thread as an excuse for trans-bashing.

There are mechanisms -
You can PM the mods
You can report posts
The mods can step in and take action.

Chuchoter

deirdre_dub wrote: »

The "would you ever" thread was actually a request for support / reassurance (http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=69621782&postcount=71) - I hope you are not suggesting that such threads not be allowed. It was seen as an excuse for trans-bashing by some people.

What you are actually saying (correct me if I'm wrong) is that any thread that might be seen as an excuse for trans-bashing should not be allowed, regardless of the merit of the thread for the transgender community. In other words, the transgender members of the forum shouldn't use "do I need to ask this" as their first criterion for posting a thread, we should use "might this be used as an excuse for trans-bashing". Of course, for almost all threads that a transgender person might start, the answer to the latter question is "yes". This is why I believe a seperate forum for transgender may be needed.

If the above criterion were applied to LGB members, then threads on religion, marriage and adoption would never be allowed.

The thread originally started out as would you ever date a trans person, no mention of looking for support (nothing against itma, I'm sure they didn't mean things to turn out the way they did). This question asked for opinions that people weren't going to like and I could tell the second I saw the thread that someone was going to say they wouldn't date a transwoman because they're not real women. Thats questioning identities. Personally I see where you're coming from, ALL threads may lead to questioning identities if you want to get into serious topics beyond just advice, so a trans subforum may be necessary if things keep going the way they are. There are definitely enough threads to keep one going.

In terms of LGB related topics, would you adopt doesn't question whether you're gay or not, so thats a valid topic. However there was a recent one about why people are gay and it was really stupid, so it got locked. If you posted a thread saying 'Do you think all gay people are gay because they were sexually abused?' that would get locked, because thats saying being gay isn't really a sexuality but more of a scar from a past event.

Links234

looksee wrote: »

Boards is an excellent way of communicating with other people, but it is not important. It will only possibly make a tiny difference to a small minority of people. It is not worth upsetting yourself over.

It is important though! And even if it's only important to a minority, that doesn't make it any less important

For transgender people in Ireland, the LGBT forum has become one of the few resources that trans people have when it comes to seeking advice or support. Other websites might not have a specific Irish perspective to offer, and while someone can quite rigorously detail the process of transition in the UK or America on other, bigger forums, they don't know the ins and outs of the Irish system. but here, we can talk to people who've had first hand experience, and I personally have had great help from people like Deirdre. she's a fantastic person and it's a serious problem if she's been bullied off the forum, but it's also a serious problem if anyone's bullied off the forum!

that, if anything, is worth getting upset over

Some people are criticizing Deirdre for her thread about a survey and the wording in some questions, but it's important to know that the issue wasn't really with her thread, it was that certain people jumped on her thread in order to continue their diatribes from another closed thread, hers just happened to be there. If she hadn't posted that thread, people would've just jumped on the next trans related thread instead.

It is also important to understand that how things are phrased, especially things that are said in an official capacity or representative of something, rather than just someone's personal opinion, have the power to be marginalizing and stigmatizing. and it may seem insignificant to someone who it doesn't relate to, but it can be very significant to someone it does effect. like when someone says that being gay is a lifestyle choice, that is stigmatizing and it has very negative connotations. But to someone who is heterosexual, they might not grasp the negative connotations. Imagine if there was a survey that asked of people when they chose to be gay, you wouldn't be surprised to find people taking issue with it. For a transgender person, one of the very worst, most hurtful, damaging and stigmatizing things that can be said is the idea that people transition purely for sexual reasons. I'm not saying that Deirdre was right or wrong in this case, but that in general, it is important that things that are stigmatizing and have negative connotations be challenged.

In any case, it might not seem important to you, but that does not mean it is unimportant.

The real issue is that Boston has made attacks against transgender people in general, and that there was no specific rule against this in the charter. I think that most people thought we could've had a civil discourse about why what he was saying was wrong and offensive, and come to an understanding, but it seems that he wasn't interested in reconsidering his position, just that he wanted to keep causing ire and kept on trying to agitate people. In the end he started having a go at Johnnymcg and kept challenging him to ban him and ban anyone else who has an independent thought process! this was not the actions of a reasonable person at all, and pretty much everything he was saying could've come straight from Derailing For Dummies.

In fact, everyone should have a look at Derailing For Dummies just to see the kind of tactics and arguments that were being used.

Links234

crayolastereo wrote: »

so a trans subforum may be necessary if things keep going the way they are.

I think that would be a big step in the wrong direction, it would be marginalizing when it doesn't need to be. the issue was really down to one person attacking transgender people, and even then, they did say that clear boundaries need to be established. So lets just establish those boundaries instead of segregating transgender issues off from the main forum.

looksee

Links, I was not in any way suggesting that Deirdre's problem, or indeed any problems are not important, I was trying to say that responses from the internet are not all that important. They may be helpful, interesting, informative etc, but it is easy to get the idea that 'everyone thinks...' when really its only a very few people.

Having said that I am aware that I was talking a bit off the top of my head. I was not aware - and didn't try to find out - the background to the whole issue, and really I should have kept out and kept quiet. I was responding as someone who reads Feedback rather than someone who reads the LGBT forum. Apologies for any inappropriate contribution.

AckwelFoley

Abuse, marginalisation or bullying of any person or group of people who are members and contributors to this forum should not be tolerated.

Its up to the powers to be of the site to decide wheather this is the issue in this case.

Dont leave the site due to one person

Wolfe Tone

How would it make things worse?

How would it make things better? Would just have everyone at odds with one another, no one should be a mod merely because of what they are.

liah

"T" in "LGBT" Approval Thread:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055872143

It's clear that from the start, Boston and a select few other users were not keen on the idea of Transgender being included in the title of this forum, even despite it already being in the charter, and being flippant saying things like it might as well be called the "LGB and Travellers" forum as transgender issues apparently had so little significance to this forum for, in my view, very petty and cold reasons.

That's where it starts.

Reference threads:

Links234's "I'm going to take a break":
http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056126357

Deirdre_dub's "I'm going to take a break":
http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056127386

Trans* Questions:
http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=69761611

LGBT Anonymous Workplace Survey:
http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056125049

He and those few other select users constantly throw out backseat modding and are consistently flippant and purposefully inflammatory for no reason. It's just not necessary. I'm not saying they're right or wrong, but it's the attitude that's seriously rubbing people the wrong way that they refuse to take responsibility for.

It's one thing to state your opinion, it's another thing entirely to throw a strop and throw your weight around about people who are clearly genuinely, from the bottom of their hearts, trying to be good people. Even if once in awhile they do go about it the wrong way, they're still human, there's no reason to be so condescending. Not when people are clearly going through one of the hardest, if not the hardest and most transitional (pun not intended) period(s) of their life.

Even if you don't believe in something or agree with what's being said, sometimes you have to know when to pick your battles-- these are people's real lives and their identities that they're so casually and flippantly talking about. Show some compassion and understanding and figure out where to draw the line. Whether you see it as attacking them or not, they still feel that way, so just move to a different mode of argument instead of fanning the flames. It's not hard.

If you can honestly go through those threads and not figure out why people are upset, then, well.. I guess there's not much that can be said. But always, always try to put yourself in the same (or an equivalent) situation and think about how you'd feel if someone told you you weren't what you knew in your heart you had to be.

Louisevb

This is mountain out of molehill stuff.
I started and moderated the Irishtrannie group for 8 years and quite honestly we have never had much of a problem even with 3500 members.
A lot of moderating is common sense and some knowledge of the issues. It's not rocket science. There will be people who will take offense at very little and that you have to accept and there will also be people who come on with the intent of stirring trouble up. Nipping it in the bud or allowing a heated discussion to continue is a judgment call that mods have to make and by and large Boards seems to do a fine job.

As I said earlier people need to relax...
Edit... Irishtrannie is a closed group so we wouldn't get anyone coming on to stir It has a separate agenda and as this is an open forum then transphobic remarks and attitude need to be confronted and controlled in a different way. But in some ways this forum reflects real life as there will always be people who are prejudiced towards transgender people.. The trick here is to normalise being transgender as much as possible despite the transphobes, much in the same way as gay and lesbians are now pretty much part of mainstream life..

deirdre_dub

crayolastereo wrote: »

The thread originally started out as would you ever date a trans person, no mention of looking for support (nothing against itma, I'm sure they didn't mean things to turn out the way they did). This question asked for opinions that people weren't going to like and I could tell the second I saw the thread that someone was going to say they wouldn't date a transwoman because they're not real women. Thats questioning identities.

As soon as I saw the "would you date" thread, I knew it was coming from someone who was looking for support / reassurance. The likelihood of my own trans status meaning that I'm going to die alone has also been playing on my mind recently.

To be fair, I could also see that it would be used as an excuse for trans-bashers to bash trans people, and so it turned out to be. So - where do we draw the line? Do we tell trans people that there are certain things that you cannot ask or seek support for on the LGBT thread? Or do we do something about trans-bashers? The former is kowtowing to transphobia, and the latter is providing a welcoming safe space for trans people.

In terms of LGB related topics, would you adopt doesn't question whether you're gay or not, so thats a valid topic.

No - a "would you as an lgb person adopt" only allows gay-bashers to bash LGB people's suitability to raise parents, and allows in the whole "gay = paedophile" crap, which is, frankly, worse than what was seen on the "would you date" thread.

If you posted a thread saying 'Do you think all gay people are gay because they were sexually abused?' that would get locked

Even if it came from a gay person who had been sexually abused and was seeking validation for their sexual identity? Because seeking validation / reassurance was also what happened with the "would you date" thread.

So, basically, what you are saying is that a sexually abused gay person (and one such person is known to me) is not allowed, on an LGB forum, to explore whether there is a connection between having been abused and being gay? Of course, to you and I, the answer is clear - there is no connection - but I know that for my friend, and for a trans person I know, they did fear in their own minds that there may have been a connection between them. And I know that for the trans person, it was only through exploring their gender in community that they finally came to realise that there could not be such a connection. Is such an exploration to be denied to them on the LGBT forum?

deirdre_dub

Links234 wrote: »

crayolastereo wrote:

so a trans subforum may be necessary if things keep going the way they are.

I think that would be a big step in the wrong direction, it would be marginalizing when it doesn't need to be.

Not necessarily. Let me put it to you this way - is the fact that there is an LGBT forum marginalising of LGBT people? No - it is a recognition that, as an oppressed minority group, LGBT people need our own space in which to explore ourselves and support each other in community.

Is a forum for travellers an expression of the oppression of travellers, or a necessary reaction to it?

A seperate transgender forum would be a recognition that transgender people are "an oppressed minority within an oppressed minority", and hence we need our own space.

The big big question is - can the oppression of trans people recently witnessed on the LGBT forum be stopped? If so, then an LGBT forum is the way to go. If not, then trans needs its own forum.

I (and, apparently, others) believe that a change to the charter is needed to ensure that the oppression of trans people on the LGBT forum ends.

the issue was really down to one person attacking transgender people

More than one, in fairness, though there was a ringleader.

and even then, they did say that clear boundaries need to be established. So lets just establish those boundaries instead of segregating transgender issues off from the main forum.

Yup - we IMNSHO need a change to the charter.

Wolfe Tone

I still dont understand why such a large group of different people are lumped together in the one forum.

deirdre_dub

Louisevb wrote: »

This is mountain out of molehill stuff.

To you, maybe. But please don't minimise or trivialise how it has affected me.

I started and moderated the Irishtrannie group for 8 years and quite honestly we have never had much of a problem even with 3500 members.

Oh good God Louise that is so untrue it is almost laughable. There have been horrendous fights on irishtrannie. It's only in the past year or two that things have settled down to a large extent.

You've outlined some of the differences between irishtrannie and boards.ie. The biggest differences are that irishtrannie is focussed on transgender only, and that it is more closed of a group, with tighter moderation, than boards.ie. In other words, it is what could happen on boards.ie if a seperate forum were set up for transgender. Not that I'm necessarily in favour of that approach.

Rev Hellfire

From what I can see (and I've only involvement in one thread) it was the "would you" thread is the root of the problem here.
To most people it was an open-ended question which was always going to get both those who are open to the idea and those who are against it.
That's the nature of an open forum like boards.ie you are likely to get both those which support your view and those who disagree with it, and that is a healthy thing to have as long as it is conducted in a civilized manner.

bodice ripper

liah wrote: »

I'm not transgender or even particularly knowledgeable on the topic (making an honest effort to learn, though) and I certainly saw exactly what Links234 was talking about.
.

Well, I did not, to be honest.

While i personally couldn't see the point in Boston digging his heels in to the extent that he did (in that it was clear that no one's opinion was likely to move there), I also couldn't see any reason for the massive blow up that followed.

Azure_sky

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

I still dont understand why such a large group of different people are lumped together in the one forum.

I think it is related to the stonewall riots. Previously ignorance regarding homosexuals meant that many straight people thought gays were men who wanted to be women. Also, it was a transgender who threw the first punch during the riots. Since then it's (supposedly) made political sense to have gays, bisexuals and transsexuals politically alligned. Even though being transsexual is not a sexual orientation, the term is misleading, one can be a-sexual and transsexual.

Anyway, back to the OP. It's rather sad to see these developements and people leaving the forum. I kind of had a feeling it would happen, as some people here fought tooth and nail to keep the T out of the forum. I've seen many a transsexual leave a certain other Irish LGB"T" forum in the past over similiar hypocrisy and transphobia. Personally I think it would have been a better idea to have a transgender sub forum rather than integrating it into the gay forum, as it just never seems to work. I really hope you don't leave OP, as that's exactly what the transphobes want. They want what they perceive as their exclusive "territory" back.

Azure_sky

Johnnymcg wrote: »

I agree strongly with Deirdres points that charter reform is needed. I also do think that having an extra Trans moderator is necessary

Yes. I agree totally, it's a must if a split in the forum is to be avoided.

Also this.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=50774143&postcount=3

If a discussion on nature vs nurture in relation to the origins of sexual orientation is not kosher then logically the same should apply to the origins of gender dysphoria.

liah

Is further segregation really the route you'd prefer to go down?

I just don't think it's wise. At all. It's brushing the problem under the rug and giving the transphobic their way. Why can't the LGB community accept T? Of all the people in the world they should know what it feels like to be marginalized and judged based upon something they have no control over.

From a social standpoint I really do believe it's in the community's best interests to support each other, not divide each other-- each group faces very similar social scenarios: coming out to loved ones, dealing with bigots and stigma, accepting themselves for who they really are and learning to love themselves for it. It doesn't matter about the technicalities. Regardless of who's technically right and technically wrong, the people are going to be in the same position. What matters is giving each other support and being human with one another.

If anything, the forum should be divided in two subforums (each remaining public): the support section and the general questions section. Those who want support can go to the support section and those willing to deal with the potentially trans/homo/whatever-phobic and misinformed can also participate in the questions section.

That way, the mods can have one approach for one forum and another for the other one. It really doesn't seem like it's going to work any other way, at least to me-- there's too much potential for someone who may be looking for help to be deterred by the constant feuding and bickering. If each was separate, more people could be helped with their issues when they so desperately need it.

Azure_sky

liah wrote: »

Is further segregation really the route you'd prefer to go down?.

It's not ideal but it can't be worse than the way things are now. I hope it does not become a necessary evil.

liah wrote: »

Why can't the LGB community accept T? Of all the people in the world they should know what it feels like to be marginalized and judged based upon something they have no control over.?

Short answer: They, well some of them, feel we are invading their territory. For the long answer check my locked thread in the LGBT forum.

liah wrote: »

From a social standpoint I really do believe it's in the community's best interests to support each other, not divide each other-- each group faces very similar social scenarios: coming out to loved ones, dealing with bigots and stigma, accepting themselves for who they really are and learning to love themselves for it. It doesn't matter about the technicalities. Regardless of who's technically right and technically wrong, the people are going to be in the same position. What matters is giving each other support and being human with one another.

I couldn't have put it better myself.

liah wrote: »

If anything, the forum should be divided in two subforums (each remaining public): the support section and the general questions section. Those who want support can go to the support section and those willing to deal with the potentially trans/homo/whatever-phobic and misinformed can also participate in the questions section.

That way, the mods can have one approach for one forum and another for the other one. It really doesn't seem like it's going to work any other way, at least to me-- there's too much potential for someone who may be looking for help to be deterred by the constant feuding and bickering. If each was separate, more people could be helped with their issues when they so desperately need it.

Well they kind of can do that already by starting a thread in AH, as Links did. Interesting suggestion though.

liah

Azure_sky wrote: »

It's not ideal but it can't be worse than the way things are now. I hope it does not become a necessary evil.

I think it would just drive the divide even deeper, and I don't think that benefits anyone at all.

Well they kind of can do that already by starting a thread in AH, as Links did. Interesting suggestion though.

AH is a thanks pit. All it would do is piss people off, as you can see what happened with Links' threads it didn't do much in the way of education, just provided people with a lot more fodder for jokes. If it was kept in this section, the quality of discussion could be better kept.

Rev Hellfire

liah wrote: »

If anything, the forum should be divided in two subforums (each remaining public): the support section and the general questions section. Those who want support can go to the support section and those willing to deal with the potentially trans/homo/whatever-phobic and misinformed can also participate in the questions section.

That way, the mods can have one approach for one forum and another for the other one. It really doesn't seem like it's going to work any other way, at least to me-- there's too much potential for someone who may be looking for help to be deterred by the constant feuding and bickering. If each was separate, more people could be helped with their issues when they so desperately need it.

Seems like a bad idea tbh, rather than looking to shift the problem into another forum a better idea is really to try and fix the underlying problems.

liah

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

Seems like a bad idea tbh, rather than looking to shift the problem into another forum a better idea is really to try and fix the underlying problems.

It wouldn't be another forum or anything, just two different sections for two very different functions.

The problem is, I agree wholly, it would be best to actually fix the problem, but in this case, I think it's asking a lot to try to change human nature. People are always going to keep acting the maggot. Teach one person and another new one rolls in. At least if there's two sections all the stuff that can offend can be herded into one and the other can be a place of support and safety.

If this were any forum than this one I wouldn't be suggesting it, but.. people in the LGBT community have to deal with a lot of things non-LGBT people don't and never will, if this has become a place of solace for some of the community and a place of education for others, why not have subsections for each so that there is no risk of something coming up that may negatively impact someone who really needs support?

It's a very sensitive topic for a lot of reasons, but the main reason is that it's the discussion of the identity of a human being and extra care needs to be taken. It's incredibly tough to moderate because hate can be dressed up as debate as we've witnessed with this uproar lately. Comments that attack a person to the very core of their being can slip under the radar because they're not immediately offensive or vulgar, but to ban such comments would be an infringement on people's freedom of expression. Redirecting them to a section designated to the controversial questions seems much healthier.

That, or just truck everyone who wants support off to Personal Issues and let the drama hounds overrun LGBT. But that doesn't sound like a solution to anything.

Darragh

Folks, just to let you know that we are looking at this thread and the threads in the forum and if we can help or you have ideas, drop any Admin a PM or email us in confidence to hello@boards.ie.

Chuchoter

liah wrote: »

If anything, the forum should be divided in two subforums (each remaining public): the support section and the general questions section. Those who want support can go to the support section and those willing to deal with the potentially trans/homo/whatever-phobic and misinformed can also participate in the questions section.

Aside from anything trans related, this would be a very good idea anyway. PI doesn't know enough about being gay (I like PI but you know obviously if you haven't been through it and such) and posting in the LGBT forum can be a bit intimidating. As we are here, I think we could use a youth thread and a 26 year old I have no friends thread.

I am still very unsure of the trans moderator thing. You should be picked on ability and fairness not on what you are.

Annasopra

crayolastereo wrote: »

I am still very unsure of the trans moderator thing. You should be picked on ability and fairness not on what you are.

Well - in all fairness - It makes sense that the ladies lounge has female mods and the LGBT forum has 3 mods at the moment who identify as gay or lesbian.

I've never seen anyone demanding that the ladies lounge have a male mod just so that the most fairest and able mod is chosen.

I think it makes perfect sense and would help to address a lot of the problems. Sometimes as a mod I don't fully understand specific trans issues and if there is a trans mod then they will be able to understand them much better then I would. Women understand things that women talk about in the ladies lounge. I understand LGB issues and to a certain extent T issues so I can mod these but I don't always understand where the line is drawn on offensive posts because I don't always understand the specifics of trans issues. Most of the time its easy to work out. Sometimes its not. If you have a trans mod then they will understand trans issues much much better and be able to step in whereas someone like me might be watching on the sidelines and thinking "is that offensive"

Kiera

Johnnymcg wrote: »

Well - in all fairness - It makes sense that the ladies lounge has female mods and the LGBT forum has 3 mods at the moment who identify as gay or lesbian.

I've never seen anyone demanding that the ladies lounge have a male mod just so that the most fairest and able mod is chosen.

I think it makes perfect sense and would help to address a lot of the problems. Sometimes as a mod I don't fully understand specific trans issues and if there is a trans mod then they will be able to understand them much better then I would. Women understand things that women talk about in the ladies lounge. I understand LGB issues and to a certain extent T issues so I can mod these but I don't always understand where the line is drawn on offensive posts because I don't always understand the specifics of trans issues. Most of the time its easy to work out. Sometimes its not. If you have a trans mod then they will understand trans issues much much better and be able to step in whereas someone like me might be watching on the sidelines and thinking "is that offensive"

Wibbs is a lady? :eek:

Azure_sky

Exactly. A transsexual who has experiance would be able to dispense advice and would be privvy to what is and is not offensive to transsexuals. In fact, imo, that is the prime criteria of being selected as a mod-knowing the subject matter.

Wolfe Tone

I disagree, I don't think a mod shroud be gong in with any set agenda, other than to be a general good mod. I would be from the school that if someone has a bias they should not be given a position of mod.

I would be wary that a mod would react way OTT to a perceived slight against trans people, or at least leave themselves open to such accusations. Would a trans mod be able to remain impartial?

Azure_sky

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

I disagree, I don't think a mod shroud be gong in with any set agenda, other than to be a general good mod. I would be from the school that if someone has a bias they should not be given a position of mod. ?

Who said anything about a bias?

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

I would be wary that a mod would react way OTT to a perceived slight against trans people, or at least leave themselves open to such accusations. Would a trans mod be able to remain impartial?

Would a gay mod be able to remain impartial to a perceived slight against gay people? One of the benefits of having a trans mod is to nulify bias, rather than exacerbate it.

Wolfe Tone

Presumably they weren't picked just because they where gay.


They would be going in with a set agenda, a bias towards trans issues.

Azure_sky

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Presumably they weren't picked just because they where gay.

I'm pretty sure being gay is a prime aspect of being elected as a mod of the respective forum. Naturally they had other good qualities which made them suitable as mod material over other gay posters.

Presumably the hypothetical transgender mod will not be selected purely because they are transgendered either, but also because they have good mod qualities. There are plenty of transgender posters to choose from.

The reason for having a transgender mod have already been explained by Johnnymcg, who admitted he himself is limited in his understanding of gender dysphoria, and myself in previous posts.
There is a gay mod, a lesbian mod and hopefully we'll have a transgender mod.

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

They would be going in with a set agenda, a bias towards trans issues.

By that logic the gay and lesbian mods start every day with a set agenda, a bias towards gay and lesbian issues. Your arguements don't hold up.

Annasopra

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

I disagree, I don't think a mod shroud be gong in with any set agenda, other than to be a general good mod. I would be from the school that if someone has a bias they should not be given a position of mod.

I would be wary that a mod would react way OTT to a perceived slight against trans people, or at least leave themselves open to such accusations. Would a trans mod be able to remain impartial?

Its not about having any agenda whatsoever. It's about having a good understanding of transgender or LGB or womens issues and therefore being able to moderate the forum better. I don't go onto that forum on a daily basis with some set agenda and biases that I am out to get straight people.

I am not some sort of homosupremacist with a biased gay moderation agenda.