Hardships of a Nation Push Horses Out to Die

caseyann

Atop a muddy dome stretching over hundreds of windblown acres, bitingly cold in the bitterest early winter many here can remember, roam some of the tens of thousands of horses and ponies that have been abandoned amid Ireland’s financial nightmare. Only miles from the heart of Dublin, the tip, a former landfill now covered with a thin thatch of grass, is the end of the road for all but the hardiest animals, a place where death awaits from exposure, starvation, untended sickness and injury.

I can not believe in this day and age things like this are allowed to happen,why people cant call the Ispca and get advice and help for their Horses.
Why does it have to come from america,and not our own country?
Seriously sickens me.
The likes of the rich and famous who are Irish and can help arent helping.They should be ashamed of themselves.
And the people who are dumping these animals out as well should be ashamed of themselves.
Why cant stable owners allow people to keep their animals in out of cold and sort it out when things get better.Not like they are making money from other people.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/21/world/europe/21ireland.html

meathstevie

In my opinion these horses should be put down. There's no willingness nor means to feed and shelter them and leaving them out there is unnecessarily prolonging their suffering awaiting the inevitable.

easyeason3

I think there will have to be a lot of horses put to sleep in the new year. People can't afford them, most shelters are at full capacity & very few people are adopting them.
The only way I can see some horses surviving is if farmers get a grant/ tax break to take them in & look after them. But not everyone will actually look after them, some will only take them in/ get a tax break for the financial side of things & will forget about the horse. These are the kind of people you never want to re-home horses to.

mikemac

It's a fairly big issue if the New York Times want to write a critical article on what happens in Ireland

I don't see this sort of story in the national media but it went international.

And yes, a lot of these horses will be destroyed in January

texas star

I heard there is talk of someone going up and shooting them and using the meat for the animals in the zoo.Alot of these horses are wild and dangerous and cant be rehomed.

PeakOutput

caseyann wrote: »

The likes of the rich and famous who are Irish and can help arent helping.They should be ashamed of themselves.
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why should anyone be ashamed besides the people who left them there?

you even mentioned the rich and famous before you mentioned the actual causes of the problem :rolleyes:

Cherry Blossom

caseyann wrote: »

Atop a muddy dome stretching over hundreds of windblown acres, bitingly cold in the bitterest early winter many here can remember, roam some of the tens of thousands of horses and ponies that have been abandoned amid Ireland’s financial nightmare. Only miles from the heart of Dublin, the tip, a former landfill now covered with a thin thatch of grass, is the end of the road for all but the hardiest animals, a place where death awaits from exposure, starvation, untended sickness and injury.

I can not believe in this day and age things like this are allowed to happen,why people cant call the Ispca and get advice and help for their Horses.
The ISPCA have neither the inclination, time, money, resources or knowledge to help them. All they have have to do is have them PTS and disposed of.
Why does it have to come from america,and not our own country?
Seriously sickens me.
This is a problem that has always existed and had been much publicised in this country since the situation has worsened in the last few years.
The likes of the rich and famous who are Irish and can help arent helping.They should be ashamed of themselves.
In what way can famous people help abandoned horses? Very few people have the knowledge to look after a horse, personally I would't reccommend anyone with less than 5 years experience around horses own one, and I wouldn't recommend anyone who has never owned one take on a rescue.
And the people who are dumping these animals out as well should be ashamed of themselves.
Agreed, they shouldn't just be ashamed of themselves though, they should be identified and jailed.
Why cant stable owners allow people to keep their animals in out of cold and sort it out when things get better.Not like they are making money from other people.
Why should they? Yard owners aren't charities, what they do is a lifestyle choice more than an occupation. In good times people in the business were working 16 hour days and breaking even, you seem to think they are loaded or something. Now that things are not so good yard owners are struggling to survive as much as everyone else.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/21/world/europe/21ireland.html

You have a lot of suggestions there about who should do something about it and what they should do, just as a matter of interest, what kind of contribution are you personally planning to make to allieviate the situation?

tk123

PeakOutput wrote: »

why should anyone be ashamed besides the people who left them there?

you even mentioned the rich and famous before you mentioned the actual causes of the problem :rolleyes:

+1

Sorry but imo the way to prevent situations like this is to put laws in place to prevent the local kids from getting their hands on the horses in the first place. They're a danger to themselves and others - especially when they're galloping home with them from smithfield and people are swerving out of the way to avoid them.

sh1tstirrer

I know those horses need feeding but what a lot of people don't understand nowadays is that horses hair grows longer during winter months to keep them warm. Saying that horses can die from exposure is nonsense.

caseyann

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

You have a lot of suggestions there about who should do something about it and what they should do, just as a matter of interest, what kind of contribution are you personally planning to make to allieviate the situation?

They could donate money to help couldnt they?
I give what money i can as donations.
And if they asked me to go out there to help i would,if i had a way of adopting them i would also.
I dont own a farm so cant house them

caseyann

sh1tstirrer wrote: »

I know those horses need feeding but what a lot of people don't understand nowadays is that horses hair grows longer during winter months to keep them warm. Saying that horses can die from exposure is nonsense.

If you knew anything,you would know lack of food and water, means lack of fat and lack of energy and heat so therefore death by exposure.

golden8

had to delete reading my post would sound too harsh.

sh1tstirrer

caseyann wrote: »

If you knew anything,you would know lack of food and water, means lack of fat and lack of energy and heat so therefore death by exposure.

That would be death by starvation not death to exposure

caseyann

sh1tstirrer wrote: »

That would be death by starvation not death to exposure

No they cant heat up lacking in food so therefore die of exposure
No smiley faces that are funny, as its a tragic thing to know is happening to those poor animals

sh1tstirrer

caseyann wrote: »

No they cant heat up lacking in food so therefore die of exposure
No smiley faces that are funny, as its a tragic thing to know is happening to those poor animals

They would surely die from hunger first in that situation as their hair would grow thicker to compensate for the lack of food and inner heat.

I didn't know smilies were banned in your thread :rolleyes:

Waterfordlass

sh1tstirrer wrote: »

They would surely die from hunger first in that situation as their hair would grow thicker to compensate for the lack of food and inner heat.

I didn't know smilies were banned in your thread :rolleyes:

I didn't think smilies were appropriate where any animal is suffering

Sigma Force

The laws need to be changed, inspectors can only do so much if man power and money is low.
If worried about animal rights in Ireland best thing to do is contact your local councillors etc. check out anvil ireland and get involved even if it's just to donate.

If you live near the area perhaps get people together and see if you can bring up feed and hay to the horses or offer to volunteer to help local welfare groups.

Nulty

http://www.ispca.ie/news_detail.aspx?footer=1&news_id=216

ppink

caseyann wrote: »

They could donate money to help couldnt they?
I give what money i can as donations.
And if they asked me to go out there to help i would,if i had a way of adopting them i would also.
I dont own a farm so cant house them

I am slow to think that throwing money at this situation is the answer. A cull seems to be the only way forward and proper legislation. If you throw money after money all that will do is keep the cycle going, like every other crazy thing in Ireland.
I do really wonder why the "rich and famous" should have to bail out the people who are so callous they will leave animals to die. Is this not the same as us bailing out bankers and developers?

I also will never give money to many of these "rescues", unless I know where it is going! I have had dealings with several rescues adopting, fostering, donating and helping manually and 70% of those I had dealings with I most certainly would never go near again or donate to. There are some good ones out there but it would surprise folks which ones. For anyone donating I would advise them to volunteer first and get to know where you are sending your money.
I am fortunate that I have land and facilities and I have offered those and my time free to assist but low and behold if there is not a whole bunch of red tape attached and the offer, while taken up briefly, is now sitting idle...just like my facilities.

caseyann

ppink wrote: »

I am slow to think that throwing money at this situation is the answer. A cull seems to be the only way forward and proper legislation. If you throw money after money all that will do is keep the cycle going, like every other crazy thing in Ireland.
I do really wonder why the "rich and famous" should have to bail out the people who are so callous they will leave animals to die. Is this not the same as us bailing out bankers and developers?

I also will never give money to many of these "rescues", unless I know where it is going! I have had dealings with several rescues adopting, fostering, donating and helping manually and 70% of those I had dealings with I most certainly would never go near again or donate to. There are some good ones out there but it would surprise folks which ones. For anyone donating I would advise them to volunteer first and get to know where you are sending your money.
I am fortunate that I have land and facilities and I have offered those and my time free to assist but low and behold if there is not a whole bunch of red tape attached and the offer, while taken up briefly, is now sitting idle...just like my facilities.

Thats very good of you,it must be highly annoying when the offer is there for them out of goodness of your heart and ignored.:mad:

I do agree but offering money seems to be only thing i can do as i have not got the facilities to take them in.If i could i would go up and pick up as many as i could.
Does the red tape stop you from doing that? Get some volunteers who are like minded as you to help bring some in?
How is it looking up there now,has the snow cleared a bit for them to at least graze a bit?

The previous poster i agree with anyone who can bring some hay and water up to them.Stuff waiting for people to say you can.


ISPCA have won me over and paws.DSPCA I am very disheartened with.

PeakOutput

caseyann wrote: »

They could donate money to help couldnt they?
I give what money i can as donations.
And if they asked me to go out there to help i would,if i had a way of adopting them i would also.
I dont own a farm so cant house them

why is it anyone elses responsibility but the people who left them there and the people who are meant to be enforcing the law?

doctor evil

Sigma Force wrote: »

The laws need to be changed, inspectors can only do so much if man power and money is low.
If worried about animal rights in Ireland best thing to do is contact your local councillors etc. check out anvil ireland and get involved even if it's just to donate.

If you live near the area perhaps get people together and see if you can bring up feed and hay to the horses or offer to volunteer to help local welfare groups.

Animal rights and animal welfare are two different things.

It may seem callous to use smilies in this thread but there is no body language behind written words.

Discodog

Firstly the law already exists. The Control of Horses Act allows any Council to make a local By Law.

There is some evidence to suggest that horses are being transported to the West & being dumped. I believe that a number of horses were found dumped in Furbo. This could be a side effect from the feeding program instigated by GBFM. Rather that pay to have their horses put down owners may decided to dump them in Connemara under the belief that they will be rescued.

The foreign press coverage has been extensive - even Al Jazeera ran a report. This can only be a good thing. Government & Local Authorities don't give a damn about what we think but they hate bad publicity especially from other countries. Hopefully a big US Investor will say that they won't come to Ireland because of our animal welfare record - we would have an Animal Welfare Bill within weeks.

Not all horse owners are short of cash. I believe that some of the wealthiest race horse owners have put down horses. There are people who have horses & could afford to take a rescue. Us dog owners do it all the time. It isn't just a case that people can't afford to care for their horses. The sale value of horses has plummeted & some people won't look after their animals if there is no economic reward.

It would wonderful to see Irish horse owners making the same effort as those in the UK, which is also in recession. 84 horses survived the Spindle Farm horror in England & offers have flooded in to rehome them.

Many horses owners here do so for economic reasons, to breed & make money. Now that the money has dried up they feel no obligation to help horses.

It's easy to criticise people for doing nothing but the average person cannot take on a rescue horse. Neither can they roam the countryside assessing the condition of horses. One obvious option, which won't happen as the horse lobby are very powerful, would be to impose the Control of Horses regulations on the whole country with immediate effect. The revenue could be used to pay for welfare & rescue. They could even impose a one off welfare tax on horse licenses to cover the current problem.

sh1tstirrer

Discodog wrote: »

Firstly the law already exists. The Control of Horses Act allows any Council to make a local By Law.

There is some evidence to suggest that horses are being transported to the West & being dumped. I believe that a number of horses were found dumped in Furbo. This could be a side effect from the feeding program instigated by GBFM. Rather that pay to have their horses put down owners may decided to dump them in Connemara under the belief that they will be rescued.

The foreign press coverage has been extensive - even Al Jazeera ran a report. This can only be a good thing. Government & Local Authorities don't give a damn about what we think but they hate bad publicity especially from other countries. Hopefully a big US Investor will say that they won't come to Ireland because of our animal welfare record - we would have an Animal Welfare Bill within weeks.

Not all horse owners are short of cash. I believe that some of the wealthiest race horse owners have put down horses. There are people who have horses & could afford to take a rescue. Us dog owners do it all the time. It isn't just a case that people can't afford to care for their horses. The sale value of horses has plummeted & some people won't look after their animals if there is no economic reward.

It would wonderful to see Irish horse owners making the same effort as those in the UK, which is also in recession. 84 horses survived the Spindle Farm horror in England & offers have flooded in to rehome them.

Many horses owners here do so for economic reasons, to breed & make money. Now that the money has dried up they feel no obligation to help horses.

It's easy to criticise people for doing nothing but the average person cannot take on a rescue horse. Neither can they roam the countryside assessing the condition of horses. One obvious option, which won't happen as the horse lobby are very powerful, would be to impose the Control of Horses regulations on the whole country with immediate effect. The revenue could be used to pay for welfare & rescue. They could even impose a one off welfare tax on horse licenses to cover the current problem.

Since when do you need a license for a horse?

Discodog

sh1tstirrer wrote: »

Since when do you need a license for a horse?

When the area you live in is made a "Controlled Area" under the Control of Horses Act. It will cost you €31 per year & your horse has to be microchipped.

EGAR

Horse licences apply in controlled areas:

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/environment/animal_welfare_and_control/control_of_horses.html

Discodog

EGAR wrote: »

Horse licences apply in controlled areas:

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/environment/animal_welfare_and_control/control_of_horses.html

Snap

Cherry Blossom

http://www.facebook.com/#!/profile.php?id=100001910755037

Discodog

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

http://www.facebook.com/#!/profile.php?id=100001910755037

"Content unavailable"

EGAR

Loading for me, DD.

Cherry Blossom

Discodog wrote: »

"Content unavailable"

Clicking on it is working ok for me, this is the same fellow:

http://www.irelandsequinecrisis.webs.com/

Qualitymark

meathstevie wrote: »

In my opinion these horses should be put down. There's no willingness nor means to feed and shelter them and leaving them out there is unnecessarily prolonging their suffering awaiting the inevitable.

Yes. But people are desperate. The abattoirs can't cope with the demand, horsy friends tell me. (Friends who spend hundreds a week on feeding their two horses, by the way.)

Discodog

I wonder if people will donate to unknown individuals & organisations ?.
I would of thought that wealthy horse owners like the hunters would want to be seen donating as good PR.

It really is time for the horse community to do all that they can. There doesn't seem to be any discussion on the equestrian board here. Many of us dog owners have made sacrifices to help unwanted dogs & taken in as many as we can.

At the end of the day it may require some emergency provision to slaughter & bury on site or in mass areas - as you would with foot & mouth.

Qualitymark wrote: »

Yes. But people are desperate. The abattoirs can't cope with the demand, horsy friends tell me. (Friends who spend hundreds a week on feeding their two horses, by the way.)

I can't see how feeding two horses is costing "hundreds per week". If they have hundreds to spend then maybe they could consider a rescue horse.

A horse has always been seen as an animal that you buy & sell according to purpose. I have met met horse owners who declare great love for their horse & then sell it to get a different one - I can't see a dog lover doing this. Horses are seen as disposable. Perhaps we could have a compulsory insurance to pay for the horse's care should the owner be unable to look after it.

Horse forums have lots of threads with a common question - how cheaply can I keep a horse. We have to ensure, in the future, that people only get horses when they can afford to keep them.

Qualitymark

Discodog wrote: »

I can't see how feeding two horses is costing "hundreds per week". If they have hundreds to spend then maybe they could consider a rescue horse.

Would you so? Very generous of you to offer their money!

EGAR

It doesn't cost hundreds a week to feed two horses.

I've got 11 rescue horses here at present:

14 x 9.7 cool n cooked ration = 135.8

2 Round bales of haylage = 70.00

So the feeding for 11 horses comes to 205.8 a week and that is for 11 horses, not two.

Discodog

Qualitymark wrote: »

Would you so? Very generous of you to offer their money!

You get the money to me & I will guarantee that every cent goes to horse welfare

doctor evil

Livery for horses can be expensive, if a person has their own land or lives in rural area it can be cheaper. Cost of feed, bedding etc has not come down there is also the regualar costs such as the farrier (which VAT has increased) wormer, veterinary attention, insurance etc. I imagine folks are quietly doing their bit, the riding club I'm involved in organised a pub quiz for the ihwt back in November. You don't have to be rich to hunt, sure there is the initial set up costs (which are again cheaper in rural areas where also wage is lower) People nearer urban areas use livery yards so may not be in a position to take on a rescue animal.

As for animals selling an animal to get another one this can be down to lots of reasons. The horse/rider may be unsuitable for each other, horse could be misadvertised or doped at viewing or rider may go down another discipline that horse is unsuitable for/does not enjoy.

I resent the assumption that horsey folk are not seen doing anything.

Mass burial of horses sounds absurd and expensive, horse meat is the same as any other. I feel there is nothing wrong in encouraging consumption of it here.

The Equestrian forum on this board doesn't get a lot of traffic. I'm on a few UK forums where there are more Irish peeps.

EGAR

The "argument" re costs was based on this:

Friends who spend hundreds a week on feeding their two horses, by the way.

Of course there are additional costs, most of which are not weekly though (farrier, worming).

doctor evil

EGAR wrote: »

The "argument" re costs was based on this:



Of course there are additional costs, most of which are not weekly though (farrier, worming).

True, but some horses loose condition at the drop of a hat while others put on weight at the sight of grass. An older horse or one with specific needs could require a different type of hardfeed. It's all relative so there is no one answer for all. When budgetting like you don't just put in the price of feed but delivery or fuel spent when getting it yourself along with everything else. Some costs might not be weekly but you still budget for it in everyday expenditure.

Discodog

doctor evil wrote: »

I resent the assumption that horsey folk are not seen doing anything.

I think it perfectly reasonable to make this assumption until we see otherwise. The "horsey folk" have the experience & are far more likely to have resources such as land & feed than your average person.

EGAR

I am going to be controversial now (what's new ). IMHO the ones who are now dumping the horses are mostly the ones who never looked properly after them in the first place. They got horses when the prices were high to make to quick buck with breeding foals nillywilly or buy and try to sell on with profit. Anyone who ever went to a horse fair can pick them out right away by the condition of their horses or rather the lack thereof. Most of the ones I have spoken to looked at me blankly when I pointed out worming, dentistry etc. It was greed pure and simple and had nothing to do with the love for horses.

And of course the group of our populace who has always caused problem re animal welfare, even when the times were good but people are too PC nowadays to point that out. I, however, am not PC, I call a spade a spade and speak from 14 years of experience.

dvet

EGAR wrote: »

I am going to be controversial now (what's new ). IMHO the ones who are now dumping the horses are mostly the ones who never looked properly after them in the first place. They got horses when the prices were high to make to quick buck with breeding foals nillywilly or buy and try to sell on with profit.

I agree with that. Many of the problems seen in the last year or 2 are down to horses being dumped by people who only got into them because it was such a money spinner a few years back. When the horses became worthless/when they had less spare cash to throw around, they quickly lost their interest and showed their true colours. Particularly when it comes to thoroughbreds (i.e. people who 'dabbled' in racing syndicates in the good times), but it also happened with riding/sports horses and ponies. These type of owners were never horse lovers anyway; they liked the status and they liked making the quick bucks.

The other type of horse owner are the genuinely 'horsey' people out there who never made much money out of their horses (e.g. the typical livery stable owner or small time rider), but had them out of a genuine interest. These are the sort of people who are far more responsible and knowledgeable, and when times get tough they'd rather go without a few luxuries for themselves if it means looking after their horses. This sort of people don't dump/starve their animals just because times are tough.

So I wouldn't be tarring all horse owners with the same brush necessarily..

Discodog

Gosh what a strange way to end 2010 - agreeing with two sequential posters here - especially with EGAR .

I would never tar all horse owners with the same brush. The law of the land must always be applied equally but often it isn't. Let just say that if a few of the responsible owners could just find a little more space & money to take a rescue it could make a small but valuable difference.

Cherry Blossom

Discodog wrote: »

Gosh what a strange way to end 2010 - agreeing with two sequential posters here - especially with EGAR .

I would never tar all horse owners with the same brush. The law of the land must always be applied equally but often it isn't. Let just say that if a few of the responsible owners could just find a little more space & money to take a rescue it could make a small but valuable difference.

More than a few people I know already have done in fairness, I know of people paying to keep a rescue horse in livery and lets not forget that everyone is suffering in the current economic climate. Plenty of responsible owners have had to change the circumstances the horses they all ready own are kept in, I know of a few people who have had to take horses out of livery and make arangements like leasing land etc to keep them on instead or putting them out on grass long-term, they've done this in order keep the horses they have while making sacrifices in terms of facilities/lessons/competing etc. It would be very un-sensible to expect people in circumstances like this to take on more horses when they are struggling with what they have. Plenty have also taken on rescues as an alternative to buying, maintaining a horse is far from economical, feed is the least of things to be budgeting for. I certainly wouldn't be suggesting anyone take on an extra horse to maintain with the expense of farriery/ vetrinary care / insurance ect that they are paying for horses they currently own and are just about managing to do.

Personally I'd have as many as I have the time and money for. At the minute in my current job-seeking state I can't realistically affoard any more than I have now, and if my circumstances were to change in the morning I already have as many as I realistically would have time for if I was back in full-time employment. There's a lot more too it than throwing them out in a field and checking on them a few times a day (at least there should be!).

lrushe

dvet wrote: »

Particularly when it comes to thoroughbreds (i.e. people who 'dabbled' in racing syndicates in the good times), ..

It's funny you should say that because just last year I was going out hacking, we were picking up a friends' horse from a yard and I happened to say how I would love my own horse one day, the guy in the yard pointed to 2 thoroughbred horses in a field and said 'you can have them for nothing', I laughed thinking he was joking but he was serious. It took every bit of strength to walk away from them but rationally I knew that 1) I didn't have the facilities to keep a horse 2) I hadn't the money and 3) I hadn't the time, but still when your dream is put in front of you an a plate it really hard to walk away

Cherry Blossom

The abandoned Dunsink horses are now with the Irish Horse Welfare Trust - all 12 of them :rolleyes:

http://practicepr.wordpress.com/2011/02/14/successful-round-up-of-horses-from-dunsink/

They can be sponsored here:
http://www.ihwt.ie/site/?page_id=112

ppink

I read this the other day and I am kind of confused about it all now. So whose horses were the dspca feeding and doing all the appeals for food for? was this just for 12 horses or were there more removed.
does ihwt have more power than dspca or how come they managed to get in and sort all this out with fingal coco.....funding maybe?

Cherry Blossom

ppink wrote: »

I read this the other day and I am kind of confused about it all now. So whose horses were the dspca feeding and doing all the appeals for food for? was this just for 12 horses or were there more removed.
does ihwt have more power than dspca or how come they managed to get in and sort all this out with fingal coco.....funding maybe?

Fingal co co are the one's that had the power to intervene, owners were given the opportunity to make themselves known with no risk of procecution and once they heard this and the fact their horses are to be sorted out for them free of charge. The only ones taken were those unclaimed. I appreciate that this seems to have been the best way (for these horses) for this mess to be sorted out but these idiots have gotten off scott free and have had their horses fed all over the winter by money which has come from the general public concerned about their welfare. As a result this clean-up operation has done nothing in terms of future situations at other sites or for the horrific standands of equine welfare in this country. Those that had already died of course were not even given a mention.

<ETA>What is most infuriating is the fact that those who came forward to avail of free services have been labeled 'responsible horse owners' just to add to their arrogance.

Cherry Blossom

The numbers at the tip greatly reduced when news that some sort of clean up was being organised. I can only assume that many of them were moved and dumped elsewhere. Dead horses have been turning up all over the place. This was found dumped in the middle of a quiet road strangled to death. She was a 2 yr old at most.

Warning - graphic image!

Cherry Blossom

Just one last thing to add on this, I had not made any donations to any of these hay appeals etc. What I will be doing now at this stage is to make a donation to the IHWT which will go towards the rehabilitation and upkeep of the 'Dunsink 12' between now the time they are re-homed. It is likely that not one single person will be prosecuted as a result of the nationwide atrocity on the country's horses this year and it is my belief that at least some of this is down to the hay appeals, not directly, but they give official bodies an excuse to continue to do nothing and God knows they don't require much of an excuse, so the cycle continues and the same thing happens all over again from October 2011.

ppink

Thankyou AJ. Nothing is ever straightforward in this country is it?! I did not donate either to any hay appeals but that was more from being soured from my last dealings with horse rescue, however a donation to IHWT may be in order now.
It still puzzles me as to why Fingal did not do this with dspca and why all that money and effort was put into feeding horses with owners.......are we not set for the same thing next year? or worse? 'cause it would be wicked handy to be able to get some horses and know that in winter someone else would feed, worm and chip them:rolleyes: