Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Double standard of EU 'Prevention of revision of the Past'
Options
Comments
-
Fair enough Morlar if you choose not to answer , but at the same time you are talking to me in soundbite and asking for soundbite answers.
But as you say back to the main thread issue and those unanswered questions.
There is one unanswered question from my very first post and that question is the one that sets the holocaust apart from any other event.
And that is the issue of intent. No other crime set out with a stated state policy to eliminate a race of people just because they were members of that race. That was its only purpose. That is what makes it different
So to boil it down, do you think that that justifies the Russians or anyone else being able to deny the repression, rape and murder of millions that their ancestors carried out? Because thats what we're actually talking about here.0 -
BlaasForRafa wrote: »So to boil it down, do you think that that justifies the Russians or anyone else being able to deny the repression, rape and murder of millions that their ancestors carried out? Because thats what we're actually talking about here.
Not at all Rafa I believe that Soviet crimes were equally reprehensible. But I do believe that they are different than the Holocaust , not less , not greater, just different. I believe the Holocaust is fifferent for the reasons I have stated. That of intent and suspect that is also the thinking behind the stance of the EU0 -
-
WHY is the Holocaust Different????
As I have outlined it was neither unique or even the Largest Genocide of the twentieth century, Why do we have countless Holocaust museums around the world but few Holdomor or Gulag museums??0 -
To recap there are posts above which you completely ignored ? No ?
To respond to this one again I would say that there is no meaningful difference between exterminating a group on one basis rather than exterminating (or attempting to ) a group on another basis. Class, Race, Sex, Orientation, Nationality, Regional origin etc. (also you are assuming agreement that it was state policy). There is no meaningful difference if a person is shot in the back of the neck for being an intellectual, an officer or for being of one religon or another. Acts of trying to exterminate a group based on their membership of that group would be equal.
Again you are responding to posts with 'point blank' simplistic types of questions. To answer this one is simple. I do not know exactly how many jews died in Germany or Russia or any occuppied countries during WW2.
Again this thread is not about the holocaust or about jews. I would ask you to review some of the posts above rather than simply ignore them in favour of throwing 'aha gotcha' types of questions back into the thread. All of which is notwithsdanding the fact that my opinions, beliefs, doubts etc on any apsect of that subject are essentially none of your business. This thread is NOT about the holocaust or jews as I have said repeatedly.
I am not avoiding any questions Morlar, as for you saying this is not about the Holocaust, Of course it is ! How can one answer why that event is regarded differently by the EU without discussing that event .
You still have not answered the issue of intent, which is why those countries that have these laws have them ,so there is a substantial body of opinion on this. Why do you think they have them ?
As for saying I am asking ''gotcha'' questions ,not at all ,and if I come across like that, my apologies . I will answer any point you care to ask me and I am not aware of any that I have avoided.
On your point above about their being no meaningfull difference between exterminating people because race in Nazi Germany verus other catagories, I have answered that already . But I will do so again - the intent in Germany was to eliminate the jews because they were jews. That was the only goal . Not to make money , not to aquire land , not to silence political disent , although all those things happened also. But if any of those things got in the way of the primary goal of killing jews they gave way to that primary goal.
All the other examples did not have that intent as their raison d'etre.
On my asking my simplistic questions and trying to understand your views , I actually dont see them as simplistic questions at all, but the very root of the matter and If we cant agree on the broad parameters of the events of the Holocaust as agreed by thousands of reputable historians from every country on the globe then there is little point in us discussing this particular topic .
Just looking back over the posts the only issue I have left unanswered is the ''dire consequences'' that would happen if Holocaust denial were allowed. I did point out what happed previously when rampant anti-semitism was allowed to flourish throught out Europe. How can we say that it would not happen again . The fact that it happened the first time was beyond imagining ,but it did. How could we be confident that if let unchecked it would not happen again ?0 -
Advertisement
-
The whole question of intent is an interesting one, the Entlosung didnt begin in Earnest until 1943, so in the ten preceeding years of NSDAP leadership in Germany there wasnt a mass conspiracy to Kill the Juden just to Get rid of them from the Fatherland, efforts were primarily concentrated on confiscating their posessions and just generally making life intolerable to the point where they left or Died.
in Stalinist Russia if you were marked out by the Politburo it meant Death.0 -
I am not avoiding any questions Morlar, as for you saying this is not about the Holocaust, Of course it is ! How can one answer why that event is regarded differently by the EU without discussing that event .
This thread is not about that - it is about the double standard that exsists. It is perfectly possible to discuss this double standard without getting bogged down or focusing as you have solely in one direction.You still have not answered the issue of intent, which is why those countries that have these laws have them ,so there is a substantial body of opinion on this. Why do you think they have them ?
http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=70113690&postcount=109On your point above about their being no meaningfull difference between exterminating people because race in Nazi Germany verus other catagories, I have answered that already . But I will do so again - the intent in Germany was to eliminate the jews because they were jews. That was the only goal .
Targetting people in a group because they are in that group voluntarily or otherwise happened often during that war. There is no exclusivity of anything there. That was the only goal? Really ? I disagree with you on that - this is pure hyperbole/exaggeration/fiction.On my asking my simplistic questions and trying to understand your views , I actually dont see them as simplistic questions at all, but the very root of the matter and If we cant agree on the broad parameters of the events of the Holocaust as agreed by thousands of reputable historians from every country on the globe then there is little point in us discussing this particular topic .
That's not the way I would characterise those posts, I would see them as ignoring carefully worded replies in favour of interrogatory style point blank loaded questions, which is not a healthy format for any kind of debate or discussion in my opinion.Just looking back over the posts the only issue I have left unanswered is the ''dire consequences'' that would happen if Holocaust denial were allowed. I did point out what happed previously when rampant anti-semitism was allowed to flourish throught out Europe. How can we say that it would not happen again . The fact that it happened the first time was beyond imagining ,but it did. How could we be confident that if let unchecked it would not happen again ?
That is not the only issue you left unanswered. But let's just recap . . . you are asserting that without hd legislation in Ireland I presume ? What exactly will happen and when ? Also you ignored the other part of that question :Spell out what’s the worst that can happen and how likely realistically (percentage wise) is the danger of that?0 -
Hello Morlar I am not getting bogged down in anything , one cannot discuss the generality of an issue without discussing the specifics. We have so far mentioned Ukraine, Katyn,Armenia,The Irish Famine ,Tasmania, Stalin, China, The America Indian , most of which are not even in the EU and you accuse me of getting bogged down.
Of course the Holocaust will be discussed more than most as it is the subject of the legislation.
On my question of intend ,you just refer me to a previous post that basically re-states you disagree , you give no argument as to why.
You accuse me of hyperbole and say there is nothing unique about targetting people in a group. Not so- they were selected because of race and virtually every country recognises that difference.
On my asking direct questions, just agree to disagree on what is ''a healthy format for debate'' shall we.
Your final point on the consequences and where you ask me ''realistically (percentage wise)'' what can happen. Now it is my turn to remind you what this thread is about ! It is not about what would or would not happen in Ireland if we did not have these laws. It is about the perceived double standard of the EU.But if you want to change the discussion to broader questions no problem.
I suspect we are not going to agree on this anytime soon , so is there really any point.0 -
I am not getting bogged down in anything , one cannot discuss the generality of an issue without discussing the specifics. We have so far mentioned Ukraine, Katyn,Armenia,The Irish Famine ,Tasmania, Stalin, China, The America Indian , most of which are not even in the EU and you accuse me of getting bogged down.
Practically every post you have made on this thread references the jews or the holocaust – that is what I meant by saying ‘It is perfectly possible to discuss this double standard without getting bogged down or focusing as you have solely in one direction.’ This thread is simply not about the jews or the holocaust - while it is perfectly valid to mention them in reference to this subject - that itself is not the subject so it is not so valid to focus exclusively in that single direction. The thread is about the double standard in how crimes of different totalitarian regimes are handled within the EU and the basis for this disparity.
The examples you mention which were given by various posters ; Katyn, the Ukraine, Irish Famine, Stalin etc may not all fall into the EU category however that is not an absolute requirement for inclusion on this thread. They are relevant to this discussion. Not in an ‘every single post should focus entirely on this’ kind of a way, but in a passing way or in some cases as a rebuttal to some point or other.On my question of intend ,you just refer me to a previous post that basically re-states you disagree , you give no argument as to why.
I think you misread the post, you assert a uniqueness in targeting based on race, I replied to you that :I don't accept the premise here that there is any meaningful difference between trying to eliminate all members of a racial group as opposed to trying to eliminate all members of another group (one based on nationality, class, regional etc).
So my response to your claim is that I do not accept that there is any kind of a meaningful difference to begin with. You have not illustrated there is and it is you making this assertion.You accuse me of hyperbole and say there is nothing unique about targetting people in a group. Not so- they were selected because of race and virtually every country recognises that difference.
As above.On my asking direct questions, just agree to disagree on what is ''a healthy format for debate'' shall we.
It looks like we will have to as when you ignore lengthy & considered posts and reply with one liner 'interrogatory' loaded kinds of point-blank questions then yes we will disagree on the constructiveness of your approach.Your final point on the consequences and where you ask me ''realistically (percentage wise)'' what can happen. Now it is my turn to remind you what this thread is about ! It is not about what would or would not happen in Ireland if we did not have these laws. It is about the perceived double standard of the EU.But if you want to change the discussion to broader questions no problem.
The underlying view to each of your posts seems to be that, yes there is a double standard but it is actually justified. Would this be a fair summary ?
If so (and I believe it would be a reasonable and fair characterisation) then my asking you WHY exactly is the double standard justified seems a reasonable question.
It is also one which you have so far refrained from clarifying despite requests to do so.
You are working from an assumption of unspecified 'dire consequences', I am asking you to spell them out clearly. And also to (if possible) calculate roughly the likelihood of these unspecified 'dire consequences' of becoming reality in a world without holocaust denial legislation.0 -
Practically every post you have made on this thread references the jews or the holocaust – that is what I meant by saying ‘It is perfectly possible to discuss this double standard without getting bogged down or focusing as you have solely in one direction.’ This thread is simply not about the jews or the holocaust - while it is perfectly valid to mention them in reference to this subject - that itself is not the subject so it is not so valid to focus exclusively in that single direction. The thread is about the double standard in how crimes of different totalitarian regimes are handled within the EU and the basis for this disparity.
The examples you mention which were given by various posters ; Katyn, the Ukraine, Irish Famine, Stalin etc may not all fall into the EU category however that is not an absolute requirement for inclusion on this thread. They are relevant to this discussion. Not in an ‘every single post should focus entirely on this’ kind of a way, but in a passing way or in some cases as a rebuttal to some point or other.
I think you misread the post, you assert a uniqueness in targeting based on race, I replied to you that :
So my response to your claim is that I do not accept that there is any kind of a meaningful difference to begin with. You have not illustrated there is and it is you making this assertion.
As above.
It looks like we will have to as when you ignore lengthy & considered posts and reply with one liner 'interrogatory' loaded kinds of point-blank questions then yes we will disagree on the constructiveness of your approach.
The underlying view to each of your posts seems to be that, yes there is a double standard but it is actually justified. Would this be a fair summary ?
If so (and I believe it would be a reasonable and fair characterisation) then my asking you WHY exactly is the double standard justified seems a reasonable question.
It is also one which you have so far refrained from clarifying despite requests to do so.
You are working from an assumption of unspecified 'dire consequences', I am asking you to spell them out clearly. And also to (if possible) calculate roughly the likelihood of these unspecified 'dire consequences' of becoming reality in a world without holocaust denial legislation.
We are just selectively going round the houses here Morlar , it seems to be ok for you to be direct and ask if such and such is a fair summary of my views , but not ok when I directly asked you for your views.
I have had a browse through some other threads and I think it is a reasonable conclusion that we will never reach concensus on this
so lets leave it at that shall we.0 -
Advertisement
-
-
No lets not leave it at that
I want an Answer.
What was so Fuppin special about the Holocaust????????
Why do the deaths of MORE People ove a longer period of time mean So little in comparison to the Deaths f the JEWS in Germany, No one has mentiooned the others who were killed by the Nazi's the Romani, the Jehovas the Homosexuals, the Retards, their deaths are also insigniificant when held up against the 'Great Tragedy' that was the Extermination of a Few Jews.0 -
Mahatma coat wrote: »No lets not leave it at that
I want an Answer.
What was so Fuppin special about the Holocaust????????
Why do the deaths of MORE People ove a longer period of time mean So little in comparison to the Deaths f the JEWS in Germany, No one has mentiooned the others who were killed by the Nazi's the Romani, the Jehovas the Homosexuals, the Retards, their deaths are also insigniificant when held up against the 'Great Tragedy' that was the Extermination of a Few Jews.
In raw numbers, the 'Extermination of a Few Jews' was significantly more than, say, homosexuals.
I think what makes the holocaust particularly more notable than most other genocides is the fact that the Germans took quite a bit of effort and organisation into it. It became almost an industry. Most genocides tend to simply be an army swanning along and shooting anyone they don't like on the spot. They tend not to take the time and effort to transport the victims to a specialised facility specifically created for the extermination job. Certainly the net effect on the target population is pretty much the same, but the manner in which it was carried out is one step beyond.
NTM0 -
You are working from an assumption of unspecified 'dire consequences', I am asking you to spell them out clearly. And also to (if possible) calculate roughly the likelihood of these unspecified 'dire consequences' of becoming reality in a world without holocaust denial legislation.
Asking you the consequences and also the likelihood seems sensible to me when you are using those unspecified dire consequences to attempt to jusfity repressive legislation that attempts to (in your words) to
‘ground public discussions to the correct methodology’
or, to ground My discussion (or yours) to someone elses definition of 'correct' methodology.
Without defining and clarifying these dire consequences it's like some kind of elephant in the room. Literally, what is the worst that can happen and how realistically is the likelihood of this coming to pass ? Balance your unknown dire consequences and the unknown likelihood of them coming to pass against restrictions on expression and civil liberties ? I would err on the side of civil liberties on this one.
We have only your word for this and the repressiveness of this legislation would itself defer detractors. The hysterical ostracisation is enough to deter discussion on this subject as a whole in my opinion. Not just in the world of historians and historical researchers, also in the media, for example, when was the last time you saw a television documentary about holocaust denial legislation ? Or one which presented the other side of the story ?
Holocaust denial legislation does interfere with free expression of thought and of ideas. That is the purpose of it. It does contribute to creating a climate which is repressive and that climate is what restricts research and restricts the free expression of ideas.
No. I do not accept constrictive limitations imposed by one side on an open discussion. Those broad strokes, or as you put it 'THE broad outlines of holocaust' are your broad outlines and are a bit too broad for me. I also disagree with your fundamental approach that there can be only one truth and it is your truth and that others should submit to agreement before we can proceed. I have not sought to impose such pre-conditions on this or any other discussion or thread and it would not enter my head to attempt to do so. The fact that you do this almost instinctively, or rather unconcious to the implications of this is indicative of the mentality behind this legislation. It (so called holocaust denial legislation) is a sinister development in my view and far more realistically dangerous to liberties than any of your unspecified 'dire consequences' of unknown levels of concievability.
You are clearly very worried, to a
quite extraordinary extent, about the
'civil liberties' and 'freedom of
expression' of Holocaust deniers!!!!!
Why then are you so concerned about
the denial of Soviet crimes in the EU???
( For which, incidentally, no one has
provided a shred of evidence on this thread,
so far!!!!!!!!!!!!!! )
Surely a palpable 'double standard' of your
own!!!!!!!!!!0 -
will you give me your outline of the holocaust then and we will know where we stand ?
Sadly, you are naive to expect any acknowledgement
of the scale and enormity of the Holocaust
from Morlar!!! ( Or indeed Mahatma!!! )
Underplaying and understating the Holocaust,
and submerging it in a sea of 'similar genocides'
is what they are all about........
Their transparent and deplorable agenda should be
clear to all concerned. Even the moderators!!!!0 -
Mahatma coat wrote: »WHY is the Holocaust Different????
As I have outlined it was neither unique or even the Largest Genocide of the twentieth century, Why do we have countless Holocaust museums around the world but few Holdomor or Gulag museums??
Countless!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Name ten countries that have Holocaust
Museums??????!!!!!!!!!!!
You're tripping over them in the
Arab states, I believe!!!!!!
Where's the Holocaust Museum in Ireland???
And I didn't say Jewish Museum!!!!!0 -
BlaasForRafa wrote: »So to boil it down, do you think that that justifies the Russians or anyone else being able to deny the repression, rape and murder of millions that their ancestors carried out? Because thats what we're actually talking about here.
For the umpteenth time,
the Russians are not in the EU, Rafa!!!!!
Who is the mysterious 'anyone else' you
are referring to??????????????
Who is denying Soviet crimes in the EU???
For once, can you give us an answer that
makes sense???0 -
Mahatma coat wrote: »The whole question of intent is an interesting one, the Entlosung didnt begin in Earnest until 1943, so in the ten preceeding years of NSDAP leadership in Germany there wasnt a mass conspiracy to Kill the Juden just to Get rid of them from the Fatherland, efforts were primarily concentrated on confiscating their posessions and just generally making life intolerable to the point where they left or Died.
in Stalinist Russia if you were marked out by the Politburo it meant Death.
'.....until 1943......just generally making
life intolerable to the point were they
left or died.'
That's all right then, Mahatma!!!!!!!!!!!
Those Jews had it made!!!!!!0 -
Mahatma coat wrote: »No lets not leave it at that
I want an Answer.
What was so Fuppin special about the Holocaust????????
Why do the deaths of MORE People ove a longer period of time mean So little in comparison to the Deaths f the JEWS in Germany, No one has mentiooned the others who were killed by the Nazi's the Romani, the Jehovas the Homosexuals, the Retards, their deaths are also insigniificant when held up against the 'Great Tragedy' that was the Extermination of a Few Jews.
You're getting very hot under the collar
about the unique tragedy that was the
Holocaust.......
Why is that, Mahatma????
I'm sure that you will want to correct
yourself, and apologize, that you
characterized the Holocaust as being the
'extermination of a few Jews'.....0 -
Countless!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Name ten countries that have Holocaust
Museums??????!!!!!!!!!!!
I can name 17, as it happens....
Argentina, Australia, Austria, Belgium, Canada, Czech Rep, France, Germany, Hungary, Israel, Japan, The Netherlands, Poland, Russia, South Africa, U.K. and the U.S.A and that was, as of, 2009.
..... and most of the 62 Museums are in the U.S.
What I can't seem to find though, is a Museum in the U.S. or U.K. dedicated to celebrating the memory of the victims of American or British Black Slavery. Maybe the Germans should build one in Berlin ?
More detailed list of Holocaust Museums worldwide below, for your perusal.
- Argentina, Buenos Aires: Fundacion Memoria del Holocausto
- Australia, Melbourne: Jewish Holocaust Museum and Research Center
- Australia, Sydney: Sydney Jewish Museum - History of the Holocaust section
- Austria, Vienna: Austrian Holocaust Memorial Service (Gedenkdienst)
- Austria, Vienna: Mauthausen Concentration Camp Memorial
- Belgium, Mechelen: Jewish Museum of Deportation and Resistence
- Canada, Montreal: Montreal Holocaust Memorial Centre
- Czech Rep., Terezin: Holocaust Memorials in the Czech Republic
- Czech Rep., Terezin: Terezin Memorial
- France, Izieu: Memorial Museum for Children of Izieu
- France, Paris: Memorial de la Shoah
- Germany: Shoa.de
- Germany, Bad Arolsen: Bad Arolsen Holocaust Archives
- Germany, Buchenwald: Buchenwald Memorial
- Germany, Dachau: Dachau Concentration Camp Memorial Site
- Germany, Furstenberg: Ravensbruck Women's Concentration Camp Memorial Museum
- Germany, Lohheide: Bergen-Belsen Memorial
- Germany, Papenburg: Document and Information Center of Emsland Camps
- Germany, Wannsee: House of the Wannsee Conference
- Hungary, Budapest: Budapest Holocaust Memorial Center
- Israel: Ghetto Fighters' House -Holocaust and Jewish Resistance Heritage Museum
- Israel, Jerusalem: Yad Vashem -Holocaust Martyrs' and Heroes Remembrance Memorial
- Israel, Kibbutz Tel-Yitzhak: Massuah Institute for the Study of the Holocaust
- Israel, Kibbutz Givat Chaim: Beit Theresienstadt
- Japan, Fukuyama-City: Holocaust Education Center
- Netherlands: Digital Monument to the Jewish Community in the Netherlands
- Netherlands, Amsterdam: Anne Frank House
- Netherlands, Amsterdam: Hollandsche Schouwburg, Dutch Theatre used as deportation center for Jews of Holland
- Netherlands, Haarlem: Corrie ten Boom Museum, "The Hiding Place"
- Poland, Lublin: State Museum at Majdanek Concentration Camp
- Poland, Oswiecim: Auschwitz Jewish Center Foundation
- Poland, Oswiecim: Auschwitz-Birkenau State Museum
- Poland, Rogoznica: Gross-Rosen Concentration Camp Museum
- Russia, Moscow: Russian Holocaust Foundation
- South Africa, Cape Town: Cape Town Holocaust Centre
- U.K., Laxton: Holocaust Centre, Beth Shalom
- U.K., London: Imperial War Museum's Holocaust Exhibition
- USA, Albuquerque, NM: New Mexico Holocaust and Intolerance Museum
- USA, Buffalo, NY: Holocaust Resource Center
- USA, Chicago, IL: Illinois Holocaust Museum & Education Center
- USA, Dallas, TX: Dallas Holocaust Museum
- USA, El Paso, TX: El Paso Holocaust Museum and Study Center
- USA, Farmington Hills, MI: Holocaust Memorial Center
- USA, Houston, TX: Holocaust Museum Houston
- USA, Los Angeles, CA: Holocaust Monument
- USA, Los Angeles, CA: Museum of the Holocaust
- USA, Los Angeles, CA: Shoah Foundation Institute for Visual History
- USA, Los Angeles, CA: Simon Wiesenthal Center
- USA, Maitland, FL: Holocaust Memorial Resource and Education Center
- USA, Miami Beach, FL: Holocaust Memorial
- USA, Naples, FL: Holocaust Museum of Southwest Florida
- USA, New Haven, CT: Fortunoff Video Archive for Holocaust Testimonies
- USA, New York: Anne Frank Center
- USA, New York: Ioannina Greece Holocaust Victims
- USA, New York: Museum of Jewish Heritage - Memorial to the Holocaust
- USA, Richmond, VA: Virginia Holocaust Museum
- USA, San Francisco, CA: Holocaust Center of Northern California
- USA, Spring Valley, NY: Holocaust Museum and Study Center
- USA, St. Louis, MO: Holocaust Museum and Learning Center
- USA, St. Petersburg, FL: Florida Holocaust Museum
- USA, Terre Haute, IN: Candles Holocaust Museum and Education Center
- USA, Washington DC: United States Holocaust Memorial MuseumYou're tripping over them in the
Arab states, I believe!!!!!!
Where's the Holocaust Museum in Ireland???
And I didn't say Jewish Museum!!!!!
There is no Holocaust Museum in Ireland, that's correct, but there is this Museum, which the Holocaust industry tried to intimidate into surrendering pieces, that the Wiesenthal Centre tried to assert were stolen from Jews by the Nazis, until our President, Mary Macaleese stepped in, and insisted on more proof, which they couldn't provide, because it didn't exist.
The proof didn't exist because the claims they were making, were nothing less than an attempt at an 'intimidatory shake down' on the part of the WC, who, exposed, had to scurry away with their tail between their legs. Consequently, their cohorts now have our President (among other Irish figures), on their list of the worlds big 'Anti Semites' because she wouldn't pander to their yelping.0 -
Advertisement
-
For the umpteenth time,
the Russians are not in the EU, Rafa!!!!!
Who is the mysterious 'anyone else' you
are referring to??????????????
Who is denying Soviet crimes in the EU???
For once, can you give us an answer that
makes sense???
Quick Question
Have you Read the article from the OP?
Please re read it,
then you would have the answers to the questions you keep asking.
And No I feel no need to apologise for ANYTHING I have said in this thread.
I'm being polite here, mybe you could try it
0 -
if yiz think the EU is unduly influenced
by Jews or Israel - then yiz are even bigger
fools than I thought!!!!!!!!!!
No, not influenced by Jews, that’s ridiculous, but rather, the EU is hugely influenced by ‘German Political Correctness’, understandable after all, considering Germany owns the EU, that is the real irony here.
If you've ever lived in Germany you would understand the crazy extremes the Government there go to, to be 'Uber PC'. If it wasn't so stupid it would be worthy of a Monty Python film, trust me, I spent quite a while there.The Holocaust happened despite the war and not because of it..... ........It was one of the centrals goals of on Nazism from start to finish.
Sorry, I’d have to take issue, and argue both points with you there, and suggest you read up on the 'Havaara Agreement'.
Don’t worry, I’m not asking you to browse any Holocaust Denial websites to source the relevant info. You can find everything you need here, on the Yad Vashem website or better still on the Wiesenthal Centre’s Museum of Tolerance website.
It may be unbelievable to imagine, but German Zionists in the 1930s were up to their goolies in secret dealings with the Nazis, and that considered, it could be argued that, Geopolitically, Adolf Hitler was the first world leader to promote the idea of a Jewish State in Palestine, incredible as that may seem.
As pointed out earlier by Mahatma Coat, the initial plan was the 'assisted emigration' of all Jews from Germany, with all of their money and possessions. The outbreak of the war stopped this in its tracks, and effectively trapped the Jews in Germany. It then became an issue about security and food. Unfortunately, as a consequence, the Jews got the shit end of the stick.0 -
marcsignal wrote: »What I can't seem to find though, is a Museum in the U.S. or U.K. dedicated to celebrating the memory of the victims of American or British Black Slavery.
http://www.lewrockwell.com/jarvis/jarvis48.htmlIn May, 2002, Bill Gwaltney, a member of the National Park Service and President of the Association of African American Museums, said of slavery museums: "We counted 19 new projects just last year and we knew there were several more. Clearly, there are several dozen more that are anticipated in 2002. They are all over the country, too. They're in the Midwest, the West, the Northeast and the South. It represents a maturation of thought about the breadth and depth of American history."
The numbers cited by Gwaltney indicate that, in a two-year period, 50 or more new slavery museums were constructed throughout the nation. This phenomenal rate of growth greatly exceeds the spread of civil rights museums in prior years. If this rate of growth continues, we can anticipate that all major cities as well as most moderately sized cities will soon have both a civil rights museum and a slavery museum. Furthermore, the day may come when a family traveling across the nation will encounter, in every town it drives through, a McDonald's, a Burger King, a Wal-Mart, a Target, a Best Western and a slavery museum.
Isn't there a fairly large slavery museum in Liverpool?
NTM0 -
Sadly, you are naive to expect any acknowledgement
of the scale and enormity of the Holocaust
from Morlar!!! ( Or indeed Mahatma!!! )
Underplaying and understating the Holocaust,
and submerging it in a sea of 'similar genocides'
is what they are all about........
Their transparent and deplorable agenda should be
clear to all concerned. Even the moderators!!!!
Be that as it may, at least they're focusing on the arguments. If you wish to demolish Morlar or Mahatma, may I suggest that you destroy their argument, and stop trying to attack them directly, like I've suggested several times on this thread.
Infraction awarded.
(The other posts are fine)
NTM0 -
'....until 1943......just generally making
life intolerable to the point were they
left or died.'
That's all right then, Mahatma!!!!!!!!!!!
Those Jews had it made!!!!!!
Well thats a position that could be argued in relation to 1933 - 1939, the policy was to facilitate their departure not their deaths.
NAZI Germany was one of the First States to recognise a Jewish homeland in Israel and actually facilitated its creation.
the Revisionists Seem to want to convinvce people that the Policys of 43 were Really in place in 33.0 -
Manic Moran wrote: »http://www.lewrockwell.com/jarvis/jarvis48.html
Isn't there a fairly large slavery museum in Liverpool?
NTM
Thanks for that MM
if i'm honest I was relying on a similar reference made by Peter Novick, but from and old documentary made in 1998. It also turns out the Liverpool one was built in 1994
just goes to show, i ought to do a bit of revision of my own from time to time to keep up to speed
0 -
sorry for the bump, but thought these were rather interesting ....
http://www.salem-news.com/articles/january152011/gassing-arabs-tg.php
http://www.paltelegraph.com/world/middle-east/77-middle-east/8223-israels-orthodox-rabbis-palestinians-to-the-ovens.html
http://www.shoah.org.uk/2011/01/15/nazi-rabbis-arabs-to-the-ovens/
well well well......isn't it a funny old world we live in ?0 -
marcsignal wrote: »sorry for the bump, but thought these were rather interesting ....
http://www.salem-news.com/articles/january152011/gassing-arabs-tg.php
http://www.paltelegraph.com/world/middle-east/77-middle-east/8223-israels-orthodox-rabbis-palestinians-to-the-ovens.html
http://www.shoah.org.uk/2011/01/15/nazi-rabbis-arabs-to-the-ovens/
well well well......isn't it a funny old world we live in ?
Its not really that odd to hear such extreme views. The Palestine telegraph quoted summarises most accurately as followsThese wicked men may be Jews and rabbis, but they don’t represent normative Judaism any more than Osama bin Laden represents normative Islam.0 -
Mahatma coat wrote: »Well thats a position that could be argued in relation to 1933 - 1939, the policy was to facilitate their departure not their deaths.
NAZI Germany was one of the First States to recognise a Jewish homeland in Israel and actually facilitated its creation.
the Revisionists Seem to want to convinvce people that the Policys of 43 were Really in place in 33.
What year was Mein Kampf? Before 43 as far as I know.
Your point is that Nazi Germany facilitated the establishment of Israel. In what way do you mean this point? was it
1. By killing millions of them in Gas chambers?
2. Removing millions of them from their homes which were occupied when they returned?
3. maybe they thought it would be what the Jewish people would want?
Regarding your last point do you really think that the fact that the Nazi's were'nt engaged in mass extermination in 1933 excuses the fact that they were engaged in mass extermination in 1943? Could you clarify exactly what you are arguing for or against with this point.0 -
Advertisement
-
jonniebgood1 wrote: »Its not really that odd to hear such extreme views. The Palestine telegraph quoted summarises most accurately as follows
It would seem to me, that ordinary Jews have as much, if not more to fear from these nutters, than they do from nazi skinheads or Arab suicide bombers.
The more I read stuff like this, coming from all sides of the divide, the more it makes me distrustful of religion.0
Advertisement