Double standard of EU 'Prevention of revision of the Past'

depaly

Mahatma coat wrote: »

The Mavi Marmara Massacres were an act of Evil and I would count them as a terrorism, howeever thats not what this thread is about.

This Thread is about the Percieved Double Standard of the EU regards the Crimes of different Regimes.

on the one hand the Crtimes of the Soviets are being treated as 'Political' and therefore in the eyes of some Lessened to the Crimes of The Third Reich, the article mentions that the EU is considering extending the HD Laws across all the states but when a proposal for sometihing simmilar regards the Soviet crimes the Reaction was Very different.

What we need to do here is look at the OP again, and DISCUSS THAT.

What we dont need to do is let the Hasbra Shills lead us on a merry Fvckin dance around till we are caught up arguing over the Fact that Altho Israel Demands that wew Respect Its right to exist it extends no such courtesy to te people that Graciously allowed them into THEIR Country.

if you want to go off on a tangent Deplay,

WHAT ABOUT PALESTINES RIGHT TO EXIST?????????????????????

shouldnt it have the same right to security and peace as its Neighbour???

I'm astonished that you still have the
brass neck to characterize the Mavi
Marmara incident as simply a 'massacre'!!!!!
Since you brought it up again, I will
address it....


The BBC Panorama programme exposed and totally
discredited the IHH 'activists' on board!!!!!
And their actions, intentions and agenda.....
The IHH being a so-called Turkish 'humanitarian'
organization
- with links to Al Qaeda!!!!!

Jonnybegood had at least referred to 'people
bearing charity'.....
The Mavi Marmara had no aid aboard!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

In some weird warped way, you are still blaming
Jews and Israel because the EU in it's articles
will not recognize 'similar' crimes by the Soviets!!!
This inferred 'influence' over the EU is more accurately
one for the Conspiracy Theory forum!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
In other words, it's complete nonsense.....

And if you can possibly think that Jews were
graciously allowed into Palestine from the
1920's on - that is la la stuff!!!!!
Palestine went from part of the Ottoman Empire to
a British Mandate..... Whose country was it????
Arabs certainly weren't too pushed - until
Jews started to arrive.............

And for your information, Israel believes in a
two state solution and the rights to a
safe and secure Palestinian state.
Inconvenient, but true!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Manic Moran

Mahatma coat wrote: »

if you are one of Those unwilling to 'waste' 3 minutes the Tagline should be enough, I could try to explain it but its would be better if you maybe had a look at it and decided for yourself what its about.

BUT, Seeing as people have the attentin spanm of Gnats these days

Hasbra Shill tries to Guilt Finkelstein about comparing the Israelis to the Nazis
Girl is about 20, Says something about it being offensive to the people who lived under NAzi rule
Finkelstein points out that HE lived under the NSDAP and his entire Family was exterminated,
Also he decries the Crocodile tears of the Shill.

Quite a good argument that I may have butchered by my forced response

That's presuming I even know who this finklestein character is. However, let's assume he is a person of some note. How does his living through contribute to the course of this argument. Plus, as a matter of discussion method, as a moderator I do not approve of people posting youtube videos without explaining the relevance and using it to support their argument.

NTM

BlaasForRafa

depaly wrote: »

!!!!!


!!!!!

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
.....

!!!!!
????
.............

!!!!!!!!!!!!!

All of which is pretty much off topic and not germane to this thread.

It seems that the main source of contreversy in this thread seems to come from 2 areas.

1: Is the holocaust more "special" than other genocides and repressions because of the intent and planning behind it?

2: Whether condeming the Soviets/Russians for their crimes diminishes the crimes of the nazis for some reason?

depaly

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

All of which is pretty much off topic and not germane to this thread.

It seems that the main source of contreversy in this thread seems to come from 2 areas.

1: Is the holocaust more "special" than other genocides and repressions because of the intent and planning behind it?

2: Whether condeming the Soviets/Russians for their crimes diminishes the crimes of the nazis for some reason?

Your apparent obsession with punctuation marks
( echoing that of marc signal a few
pages back!!!! )
is pretty much off topic and not
germane to this thread!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


As to the 'main source of controversy':-
bottom line, it seems to me, is
resentment and bitterness.

Resentment and bitterness at the
'special' recognition that the murder of
six million Jews gets.
Within the Holocaust, itself.
And in commemorations/memorials generally.
As a number of posters have pointed out!!!!!

I ask myself why this is - and I think that
I know the answer!!!!!

This is nothing new in the context of the
visceral anti Israel and anti Semitic
tendencies within Ireland, and other
European countries. There's a long track
record!!!

Simply read other Irish discussion boards, fora,
threads etc. if you have any doubts!!!!!

It's perfectly understandable that Eastern
Europeans would have concerns about the
recognition and commemoration of Soviet
victims. Notwithstanding the opportunity
for 'holocaust obfuscation' previously
mentioned on the thread.
Why so 'hot' here, however???


I believe that those here in Ireland who have
a newly found thirst for
'recognition' of Soviet victims
are merely adopting a ploy to diminish
sympathies for the Jewish/Israeli experience.
Merge all slaughters and genocides into a
meaningless mish mash of WW2 atrocities.

The prevailing undercurrent of demonising
Israel doesn't brook any notions of sympathy
or justifications.....
The idea of Jews fleeing the Holocaust and
an anti Semitic Europe for settlement in
Israel is best forgotten, kept under wraps
or diminished in propaganda and sophistry.

Mahatma coat

2: Whether condeming the Soviets/Russians for their crimes diminishes the crimes of the nazis for some reason?

This does seem to be the integral point at this stage.

Why would an acknowledgement of the Savagrey employed by other regimes be seen as diminishing the Savagrey of the Third Reich??

Because that seems to be Depalys "Argument'' at this stage.

depaly

Mahatma coat wrote: »

This does seem to be the integral point at this stage.

Why would an acknowledgement of the Savagrey employed by other regimes be seen as diminishing the Savagrey of the Third Reich??

Because that seems to be Depalys "Argument'' at this stage.

At this stage, you seem to be
resorting to making up 'my argument'!!!!!!

However, I'll actually address your point!!!!

Who, in the EU, denies Soviet crimes???
I've asked that question several times
and no one has given me an answer!!!!!!!
Why a declaration about Soviet crimes 'denial', when the
problem doesn't exist?????!!!!!!!!!!!!

And why are all you lads steaming because the
EU won't link Soviet and Nazi crimes, or give
them some peculiar, symbolic 'equivalence'?????
Can they not stand alone as facts of history????

You all know that there are 'holocaust deniers'
and 'holocaust obfuscators'.
The German people are honest and upfront enough
to acknowlege Nazi crimes and punish deniers...

So what are a group of Irish pillocks getting their
knickers in a twist about???????????
One could perhaps understand Lithuanians or Latvians
having an axe to grind ( and perhaps another agenda )
but where is this contrived and artificial Irish
brouhaha stemming from???????????????

BlaasForRafa

depaly wrote: »

'!!!!!!

!!!!

!!!!!!!
?????!!!!!!!!!!!!

?????
????

...

???????????
???????????????

People are "making up your argument" because you are so incoherent thats its difficult to figure out what your on about. If you tried to calm down and laid off the outrage and hysteria, then maybe people would find out if your pony has more than one trick or is it just "RAH RAH RAH YOU ALL HATE ISRAEL" as I suspect it probably is.

Manic Moran

In fairness, I can understand his argument.
I'm no fan of the prosaic manner of typing, but his root points are valid.

That said, Depaly, please don't refer to other posters as 'pillocks', assuming that you were indeed referring to them.

NTM

depaly

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

People are "making up your argument" because you are so incoherent thats its difficult to figure out what your on about. If you tried to calm down and laid off the outrage and hysteria, then maybe people would find out if your pony has more than one trick or is it just "RAH RAH RAH YOU ALL HATE ISRAEL" as I suspect it probably is.

Still hung up on my punctuation!!!!!!!!
It looks like you can't handle my 'argument',
and some petty nitpicking and personal abuse
is all you can manage at this stage!!!!!
You're a funny guy!!!!!

I know that you don't find me incoherent,
because I haven't been incoherent - and
everyone knows it.
Your first bit of nonsense exposed!!!!!!

I don't have to try to calm down,
because I'm perfectly calm - which I
know annoys the hell out of you and your
'friends'!!!!!!!!!!!
A second bit of silliness bites the dust!!!!

Just for your information, a few exclamation
marks doesn't indicate 'outrage and hysteria'!!!!
3-0 to the Dep......

A forlorn attempt to reduce a debating opponent
to one concept and one made-up, idiotic, childish
soundbite is frankly clutching at straws and
demonstrates a pathetic lack of ideas!!!!!

Game, set and match!!!!!!!!

Now perhaps some of the lads who gave thanks for
your adolescent twaddle will rejoin the debate
and actually address some of the points I made!!!!

jonniebgood1

depaly wrote: »

Still hung up on my punctuation!!!!!!!!
It looks like you can't handle my 'argument',
and some petty nitpicking and personal abuse
is all you can manage at this stage!!!!!
You're a funny guy!!!!!
!!!

Previously

depaly wrote: »

So what are a group of Irish pillocks getting their
knickers in a twist about?????????????

If your going to set a standard for other posters, the least you could do is abide by it yourself. Particularly in the same post (not fully quoted)

BlaasForRafa

depaly wrote: »

!!!!!!!!
!!!!!
!!!!!

!!!!!!

!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!

!!!!
......

!!!!!

Game, set and match!!!!!!!!
!!!!

Game, Set and Match? Lol, you're actually about 15 years old aren't you? You really need to develop your debating etiquette as you come off as being a screaming nutter and this destroys the credibility of whatever it is you are trying to say. If this is you when your calm I'd hate to see you when you are hysterical, this post just helps to confirm that your point does actually boil down to a rather paranoid ""RAH RAH RAH YOU ALL HATE ISRAEL"" spiel carried on over multiple pages.

Also, if you have a problem with one of my posts, theres a report button in the bottom left, use it and let the mods deal with whatever problem you perceive rather than launching into a tirade.

marcsignal

depaly wrote: »

I don't have to try to calm down,
because I'm perfectly calm - which I
know annoys the hell out of you and your
'friends'!!!!!!!!!!!

Hey, the only thing I'm annoyed about, is that I spent good money going to the 'Laughter Lounge' in town last night, when I could have just stayed in and read your posts instead :D:rolleyes:

depaly

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

Previously



If your going to set a standard for other posters, the least you could do is abide by it yourself. Particularly in the same post (not fully quoted)

jonniebwise.....

A previous post is not the same post....
If you're going to nitpick, at least do
it correctly!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I don't recall setting any 'standards'....
Perhaps that's what you're trying to do
for me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It's a tad pointless, I suggest, to wait
around till you can do the schoolteacher
bit, pontificating on the rules of debate....
We have plenty of moderators to do that!!!!

Mind you, it's probably as exciting as
your previous contributions ( 'covered in
post 23', 'post 55 applies', 'referring back to
post 35' etc)
which were frankly sleep-inducing............
Even Morlar was losing the will to live!!!!!

depaly

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Game, Set and Match? Lol, you're actually about 15 years old aren't you? You really need to develop your debating etiquette as you come off as being a screaming nutter and this destroys the credibility of whatever it is you are trying to say. If this is you when your calm I'd hate to see you when you are hysterical, this post just helps to confirm that your point does actually boil down to a rather paranoid ""RAH RAH RAH YOU ALL HATE ISRAEL"" spiel carried on over multiple pages.

Also, if you have a problem with one of my posts, theres a report button in the bottom left, use it and let the mods deal with whatever problem you perceive rather than launching into a tirade.

You're making some progress - you're actually
dealing with a phrase that contains words!!!!
Although, there's still a bit of the
fetishistic obsession with punctuation.....
Don't be letting an exclamation mark upset
you to the point that you're seeing 'screaming'
'hysteria' and 'paranoia'!!!!!!
That's reminiscent of the febrile imagination
of a four year old!!!!!
It destroys the credibility of whatever it is
you're trying to say!!!!!

If you thought my last post was a 'tirade', I
reckon you'd dissolve into tears if you
encountered a real one!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Take a chill pill, there's a good lad....

'Rah Rah Rah' - what's that???
Something to do with Rafa???
Honestly, it sounds like some children's song
from the playground to me......

It's looking like a lost cause for you -
but a little maturity would at least save
some face for you on a public forum.....
Cool your jets, and return to the issue at
hand......

You're embarrassing yourself, so why would
I be so cruel as to prompt a moderator
to add to your discomfort?????

depaly

marcsignal wrote: »

Hey, the only thing I'm annoyed about, is that I spent good money going to the 'Laughter Lounge' in town last night, when I could have just stayed in and read your posts instead :D:rolleyes:

What possessed you to go to the
totally overrated 'Laughter Lounge'????
You must have money to burn!!!!!

And don't underestimate your own entertainment
value!!!!!
Your previous contributions were clearly
from the 'Fr. Ted' school of debating!!!!!

Mahatma coat

[Deleted by MOD

You either report the post, or comment on the thread and risk sanction. Don't do both.

NTM]

Manic Moran

As for the rest of you, you get a week without fear of Mr Depaly entering the thread.

It'll probably get quiet now.

NTM

Mahatma coat

fairy Muff :D:D

Right so, lets get back to the main discussion, why is it Polliticly unpalletable to Equate the Crimes Against Humanity of the Soviets with the simmilar crimes of the Nazi's?????

cos from my perspective they wer all Fairly horid and should all be treated as such, is there a latent undercurrent of 'Gulag deniers'?????????

if they exist why arent they being pursued with the same vigour??????

jonniebgood1

Mahatma coat wrote: »

fairy Muff :D:D

Right so, lets get back to the main discussion, why is it Polliticly unpalletable to Equate the Crimes Against Humanity of the Soviets with the simmilar crimes of the Nazi's?????

cos from my perspective they wer all Fairly horid and should all be treated as such, is there a latent undercurrent of 'Gulag deniers'?????????

if they exist why arent they being pursued with the same vigour??????

Do you think that they exist to the same extent as Holocaust deniers?

I think that the amount of information about Gulags compared to the amount of information about Nazi Germany's camps is an important part of this. The Gulags existed as an almost hidden regime operating under a secretive society's cover. This is reflected in the literature availiable about these camps. A look at what happened to Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn when his expose on the system 'The Gulag Archipelago ' was discovered by the KGB goes a long way to explaining this. It is a decent book factually but hard work to get through whereas more accomplished explanations of Nazi camps are widely availiable. My point therefore is that if the Gulag crimes were more widely known, they may be more widely condemned.

The second point which some people here will not agree is quite obvious to me. The worst of the Gulags saw people die in horrific conditions but their main purpose was forced labour and punishment.
The worst of the Nazi camps had simply one function, to eliminate human life (sobibor, treblinka).
That is a distinction that is significant and should be noted. If that is accepted then the crimes of the Gulags (horrific, I agree) are not equal to the crimes of some Nazi camps.

Mahatma coat

I'm not sure Jonnie, there is this phenomonen of Ostalgie in parts of the former Soviet Bloc, some of those people may well deny that the Gulags ever existed or were anything more than Western Propaganda against their Glorious peoples revolution

Moreover I dont see a difference in the Intent of sending someone to Sobribor to Die under the NDSAP or sending someone to Die ina Gulag in Siberia under the NKVD, the methodologies may have varied but the intended result didnt.

jonniebgood1

Mahatma coat wrote: »

Moreover I dont see a difference in the Intent of sending someone to Sobribor to Die under the NDSAP or sending someone to Die ina Gulag in Siberia under the NKVD, the methodologies may have varied but the intended result didnt.

The difference is not as you put it above IMO.
The Soviet Gulag system was about sending someone to a camp where you exploit them for work purposes, this often resulted in alot of deaths due to the neglective conditions. I would compare the Gulags with the Nazi Concentration camps (as opposed to death camps such as Sobibor & Treblinka) where death was associated with the camps as opposed to being the main purpose for there existance.
The main function of the 'death' camps was therefore to kill the people taken into it. This difference would seem to me to be a part of why the Gulags get less attention than the Nazi camps (together with reasons listed in my previous post). I am sure there are people who would deny that the Gulags exist but they, like Holocaust deniers, are not particularly credible given the evidence availiable.

It would be interesting to see how such a person (gulag denier) is treated in Russia nowadays as a comparison for treatment of Holocaust deniers in Germany & Austria or even to see if there is this type of problem.

Mahatma coat

Just to reply to this before it all kicks off again.

I would see your point regards the Older Camps and the Gulags as being places where people Were ''Left to Die'' but both regiemes had facilities for people being speciffically "Sent to their Deaths" The Russians had the Northern Siberian Gulags which IMO should be considered inthe same leagues as the Nazi death camps, actually I think overall more people survived the Death camps than those Gulags

jonniebgood1

Mahatma coat wrote: »

Just to reply to this before it all kicks off again.

I would see your point regards the Older Camps and the Gulags as being places where people Were ''Left to Die'' but both regiemes had facilities for people being speciffically "Sent to their Deaths" The Russians had the Northern Siberian Gulags which IMO should be considered inthe same leagues as the Nazi death camps, actually I think overall more people survived the Death camps than those Gulags

Just to be clear from start- we both agree that BOTH Nazi camps and Soviet camps were horrific, I would not equate them however with each other as you do.

Regarding your suggestion of Soviet equivalent death camps, Do you have any reference or links to back up this view? I would still see an important distinction between 1. hard labour work camps where people did die due to poor conditions and 2. A camp that had as murder as its main function.
I would be interested to read of the Soviet

facilities for people being speciffically "Sent to their Deaths"

Are they on same scale as Nazi death camps? i.e. mass execution facilities?
Had they work functions or just to Kill?
Why were people sent there? i.e. racial ideology or political reasons?


Do you have a reference for this information-

actually I think overall more people survived the Death camps than those Gulags

Is this total number or percentage of inmates? (percentage would be a better reflection as the Gulags were in operation for a longer period of time).

marcsignal

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

Why were people sent there? i.e. racial ideology or political reasons?

Some good detailed tabular info on population transfare in Soviet Union here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_transfer_in_the_Soviet_Union

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Involuntary_settlements_in_the_Soviet_Union

continued until 1951

Mahatma coat

what the hell were Filtration Camps?

marcsignal

Mahatma coat wrote: »

what the hell were Filtration Camps?

good question....


...a Soviet euphemism maybe, like 'special treatment' ??

jonniebgood1

Mahatma coat wrote: »

what the hell were Filtration Camps?

Filtration camps dealt mainly with displaced people from the war torn areas of eastern europe after the soviets pushed the Germans back into Germany. They dealt with civilians whose homes & towns were eradicated (refugees), released Soviet POW's and Eastern european slave labourers who may have assisted Germany. They were sent to these camps until it was decided where to send them, i.e. to their own areas, to new civilian areas or to the Gulag system. The majority were held in these camps for less than a year. I believe there were also displaced person camps in all of Europe dealing with all kind of refugees. There were for example almost 3 million Ukrainians who were displaced during late 1944, early 1945- many of these would have had to pass through a filtration camp. They were separate from the Gulag system although a person from the filtration camp could be sent to a Gulag if found guilty of a crime.

Mahatma coat

on the topic of Mortality rates

How about the German POW's

Stalingrad

91,000 German POWs taken at Stalingrad, 27,000 died within weeks[52] and only 6,000 returned to Germany in 1955. The remainder of the POWs died in Soviet captivity

thats a 7% survival rate

if they didnt MEAN for all those people to Die then they were a pretty careless bunch of individuals the aul Soviets

jonniebgood1

Mahatma coat wrote: »

on the topic of Mortality rates

How about the German POW's

Stalingrad

thats a 7% survival rate

if they didnt MEAN for all those people to Die then they were a pretty careless bunch of individuals the aul Soviets

The % survival rates for the overall war are posted here http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=70465701&postcount=19

It might be interesting to look into reasons why the prisoners were treated so appallingly. The treatment of German prisoners at Stalingrad was most likey the Soviet response to the treatment of their prisoners

The most deaths took place between June 1941 and January 1942, when the Germans killed an estimated 2.8 million Soviet POWs primarily through starvation,[9] exposure, and summary execution, in what has been called, along with the Rwandan Genocide, an instance of "the most concentrated mass killing in human history (...) eclipsing the most exterminatory months of the Jewish Holocaust".[10] By September 1941, the mortality rate among Soviet POWs was in the order of 1% per day

Morlar

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

The % survival rates for the overall war are posted here http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=70465701&postcount=19

It might be interesting to look into reasons why the prisoners were treated so appallingly. The treatment of German prisoners at Stalingrad was most likey the Soviet response to the treatment of their prisoners

The confidence you have in those sweeping statistics is surprising considering as has already been mentioned the 1.5 million missing germans. You can not take ww2 statistics at face value, you have to look in to what they are based on. So, no, the survival rates have not already been posted here, One estimation of the survival rates, by one author, which the editors at wikipedia find agreeable have been posted there - that is not The Survival Rates.

Your view that any soviet mistreatment of german pow's is a response to german treatment of russian pow's does not sound like the claim of someone looking at this from a neutral viewpoint. Also - worth mentioning that these last few posts belong in a different thread in case you had not noticed.