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Deadly Premonition ?
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Join Date:Posts: 50184
NeoKubrick wrote: »First, you claimed that I expect "perfect game mechanics", but continue to weasel out of where you found that quote. Now, you're claiming that I said "every game needs polished game mechanics to be enjoyable", and you will weasel out of quoting where you found that too. Please quote and link where I stated either of these two statements you're arguing with, or admit that you fabricated them.
Ahem...NeoKubrick wrote: »It's just bad game design. Instead of creating a film, the developers created a film within a game. It's like the developers stop and pause the film every five minutes to force you to play a full game of monopoly to progress to watch the next five minutes.NeoKubrick wrote: »The perfect example of the game's bad design is opening the map. To quickly open the map, the player presses the 'back' button, but to close the map, the player has to press 'B' twice. So, instead of two clicks on one button, to quickly open and close the map, the player has to use two buttons and use three clicks. It's an unnecessary interface design and any game designer would instinctively know that and correct it (but that's the point, they're filmmakers not game designers). This bad interface design is made worse by the fact that it's difficult to orient yourself in the world with a map that moves relative to the player's direction and therefore, the player has to consult the map a lot. That's one example of bad design and it is consistent throughout the rest of the game.Neokubrick wrote:Deus Ex and System Shock 2 are great games, but a FPS game, first and foremost, is combat, and I don't know if you've played either game recently, but both games have simplistic combat which isn't getting better with age. Both games excelled in other areas, but not combat.Neokubrick wrote:FPS should aspire to be more than combat, but a FPS, by definition, will have to challenge the gamer the majority of the time with combat, and if the combat isn't interesting, then, the most important component of the game is not interesting. You can't put games with inferior combat above games with superior combat in the FPS genre; it just doesn't make sense.
There you go. It's been well documented that this game has some pretty serious design flaws and I even warned you about them before so I don't know why you are complaining when you should have expected niggles like these before starting the game.Neokubrick wrote:It's irrelevant that you found the game hugely entertaining. I couldn't care less. Subjective unsubstantiated opinions are worthless and yours are no exception. I have substantiated my argument that it's a badly designed computer game with some interesting characters and a decent plot and an example of how top-down development fails.
Bad design doesn't make something a bad game necessarily. Halo is quite a good game despite the terrible reuse of assets and terrible Flood AI. I also think that a piece of entertainment being ultimately enjoyable is far more important than nit picking the stuff it gets wrong.NeoKubrick wrote: »Real-time movement isn't "genuine genius game design", but it is an effective and satisfying method to communicate information and it is in Oblivion, which is an adventure game that uses a sandbox environment. However, this neat design doesn't negate the consistent bad game design of the rest of the game and it certainly doesn't qualify it as unique or charting new territory.
It's hardly the same thing as in Deadly Premonition now. Depending on where the characters are will trigger new events in the game. In oblivion it just changes the the location of the character and isn't more sophisticated than the NPCs randomly milling about in an 8-bit RPG.
As for the publisher input, my answer is so what? Deadly Premonition could never have been made with no budget so some publisher sucking up had to be done to get funding. The game was budgeted to sell about 70,000 copies in Japan (which it failed miserably to reach) and hopefully find a publisher in the West if some miracle occurs. It's the way all games are funded in japan at the moment unfortunately. Anyway the point remains that attacking my posts by taking everything I said literally isn't winning you any arguments.
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NeoKubrick wrote: »Can you explain how any of those quotes relate to the two quotes you fabricated and attributed to me, or were you imitating a monkey and flailing your arms about hoping to reach and grab a banana? Can you explain you why you picked a quote which actually contradicts the quotes you falsely attribute to me? If I expect "perfect game mechanics" and demand "polished game mechanics", it would be inconsistent to claim that I think Deus Ex and System Shock 2 are great games. So, how you inferred those two quotes from that incompatible single quote is beyond explanation least of all standardized logic and grammar. The other quote is incongruous: it's explicitly a statement pertaining to the first-person shooter genre (here are a few clues if the actual quote wasn't clear: "FPS should", "but a FPS", and "in the FPS genre"). Is Deadly Premonition a first-person shooter, now? I wouldn't be surprised to see you claim that after the delusion "experimental art film" comment. The two relevant quotes to this discussion do not equate to an expectation or demand of "perfect game mechanics". Here, read an actual quote where I make the distinction between great games and experiences and which debunks your two fabricated quotes: source..
I didn't fabricate any quotes, they were more observations of perosnality. Also quoting out of context, I know someone else that's done that before. You're alos taking quotes way out of context above. Pot, kettle, black.NeoKubrick wrote: »Responding to what people literally post is the basis for the existence of forums and makes discussion possible. It's not my fault that your posts are mostly gibberish and operate under logic foreign to the human race and grammar, to the English language.
I'm sorry that I don't speak in absolutes and that you have a hard time comprehending subtlies such as hyperbole and sarcasm. I like to use the english language to make things interesting but looks like I've given you far too much credit.NeoKubrick wrote: »You imply that if that serious design flaws are recognized of a game before playing the game, it's permissible to ignore them when critiquing the game. That's gibberish.
Not ignore them. Put up with them if the experience is good as a whole. It's all about the experience in the end.NeoKubrick wrote: »Oblivion had the same design except years before the release of Deadly Premonition; obviously, the scope of Oblivion limited the routines of the NPCs (hundreds as opposed to dozens in Deadly Premonition) and it was released in 2006.
Destroying your own argument? So what if it was released in 2006, deadly premonition did it better and with more ambition than the big budget oblivion did. I wouldn't even say the two systems are comparable considering how primatively it is implemented in Oblivion.NeoKubrick wrote: »As I've said, unsubstantiated subjective opinions are worthless in a discussion attempting to critique a game. Either you substantiate your argument and counter why Deadly Premonition isn't a badly designed game, hasn't interesting characters or a decent plot or why top-down development works or explain how a game that was subject to institutional filters on its content was the equivalent of an experimental art film and not equivalent to a Hollywood film (I still don't think you understand this distinction and the significance of a publisher's input) or stop spamming the thread with posts about unqualified enjoyable experiences, hyperbolia and worthless discussion.
Well then feel free to go on nit picking at the mechanics all you want and boring us all to big fat salty tears. We all know it's poor in lots of areas, we can read that anywhere. I'd rather talk about peoples experiences with the game good or bad.
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@Retr0Gamer
(instead of starting a new thread) Did you see the trailer for the game Catherine, looks similar in its madness to this game but with a big budget and nice anime graphics, could be right up your street.
Can't wait for Catherine! Looks really interesting and it's by the team behind Persona 3 and 4 which are two of my favourite games.
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NeoKubrick wrote: »That quote is not out of context, at all. It proved that you did not have a "superior knowledge" of the 90s PC gaming scene: you wouldn't be claiming in 2004 the above if you were having superior experiences in the 90s. Furthermore, it proves that I was right to guess that you pilfered someone else's opinion on the subject of Halo: Combat Evolved, because, obviously, your opinion changed from the above to another position.
Yes it is taken out of context because you don't understand the difference between hating a game and saying it's bad and calling something overrated. I'm not the one that bullishly stands by the frankly silly thinking that Halo was anyway revolutionary despite all the evidence to the contrary and going on like guns, grenades and melee is some form of holy trinity that has never before been seen in a game. Halo is a decent game but it's overrated and between Deus Ex in 2000 and Halo in 2002 there were very few good FPS games released with a lot of derivative stagnant rubbish. My opinion of the series hasn't changed. I'll contradict you if you call the game crap or if you hold it up on some pedestal that it doesn't belong on. You can keep saying that someone influenced my thinking until you believe it but it's still not true.
Anyway I'm kind of sick arguing with you. I see no point in it with someone as stubborn and pigheaded as you. I'd have more respect for you if you could admit when you are wrong but it's totally beyond you.I can only imagine how long it took to search every post I made with Halo in it to find one from 6 years ago that you could twist to try and convince yourself about me being influenced by someone else.
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Ya it looks very interesting especially if you are an amine fan!
Doubtful that it will get a western release I'd say! If it does it might be worth a look.
I'm pretty sure it will get a western release in America at the very least. Atlus have been really good in bringing their games over and since the Persona team are behind it it's got a lot of hype.
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NeoKubrick wrote: »It isn't out of context. You claimed that there you were aware of "superior experiences" of Halo's combat on the PC before its release in 2001 in a weak argument, but in 2004, you're claiming that Halo was the best FPS money could buy (it took all of a minute to find that quote):
I'd ask you to readit agian but you've already proven you can't follow simple english. Anyway I wouldn't expect anything less from someone that will fabricate something to suit their own interpretations and flat out ignores any evidence that proves him wrong. I don't mention it'sthe best FPS that money can buy, you'rejust making it up and drawing conclusions to suit yourself. Go read it properly without an agenda.NeoKubrick wrote: »Furthermore, you omitted a detail of your quote in the above post: you claimed Halo was the best FPS since Deus Ex and Half-Life (released in 1998); so, the timeline would be from 1998, not 2000, to 2002.
Deus Ex was released in 2000 genius.NeoKubrick wrote: »Anyway, you claim it is the best FPS money could buy until Metroid Prime; therefore, that timeline is irrelevant. You claim that your opinion hasn't changed, but it is plain and explicit that you're changing it even now.
The best in a sea of mediocrity isn't a glowing opinion. Again you fail to realise the difference between somebody finding a game over rated and somebody not liking a game.NeoKubrick wrote: »In every discussion we had, I proved that Halo: Combat Evolved was revolutionary and destroyed your weak arguments. Where is evidence of this to contrary? Link to the discussions and point to exactly where you proved that Halo was not revolutionary; the difficulty is you can't fabricate quotes this time. In fact, you ineptly and unwittingly implied Halo was revolutionary in the last discussion: "Halo was de-evolutionary to the FPS genre". If that wasn't enough delusion in your post, you imply that anyone other than yourself is stubborn and pigheaded. A couple of months ago, I pointed you to documents where you could inform yourself about the Halo series and its design, because it's been clear that you don't have a clue about the Halo series or, in general, game design or game AI (hopelessly clueless). You idiotically ignored it, because you rather be blissfully ignorant and repeat what someone told you about the series after 2004 than invalidate every single time you threw a tantrum over a 'Halo is great' comment over the last six years. That's the truth of the matter and the same with Final Fantasy XII ("You know what, you're still wrong").
And you think you are some kind of expert? Give me a break. You're the worst kind of zealot that fallen for their own delusions. I kept asking you for evidence on how it was revolutionary and you have still yet to provide any evidence. I might have said de-evolutionary, a wrong choice of words and said I meant stagnated but you just cling on to it. Anyway I'm still waiting on you to provide some evidence. I've provided enough of myown but only get the fingers in the ears response from you. I'm not going to link to it, it's there in the halo forum if you want to find it and what use will it do anyway, you'll just be as pigheaded as always so there's no point even discussing anything with you.NeoKubrick wrote: »I'd have more respect for you if you dropped the cringe-worthy assumption that your opinion trumps everyone else's despite the gibberish logic and bias and especially on subjects which you have absolutely no knowledge or understanding of.
Pot. Kettle. Black.
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I think the cheapest is about €17 in HMV.
If you want it online, its on Zavvi for £15.95.
couldnt find it yesterday anywhere
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