Winter Tyres a Legal Req here: Good Idea/Bad Idea

Mr.David

Would you support making winter tyres a legal requirement in Ireland as per some other European nations?

On the one hand it would make a difference to the chaos at the moment, and would make it a safer place both as a driver and pedestrian. Less delays and disruptions would also benefit the economy - less people taking time off work etc.

On the other hand, it would be expensive. And difficult to police.

What are your opinions?

mle1324

Would be a good idea but it would be very hard to enforce I think.

Random

there's too many idiots out there doing stupid things. breaking red lights, driving along in the wrong lane and trying to cut in and then blocking both lanes when they get stuck, braking down and not putting your hazard lights on. trying to overtake agressively when there's clearly no room.

THE RULES OF THE ****ING ROAD STILL APPLY EVEN WHEN IT'S SNOWING SO STOP BEING IDIOTS!

i don't see how winter tyres are gonna improve most of the problems we're having.

Colonel Sanders

Random wrote: »

there's too many idiots out there doing stupid things. breaking red lights, driving along in the wrong lane and trying to cut in and then blocking both lanes when they get stuck, braking down and not putting your hazard lights on. trying to overtake agressively when there's clearly no room.

THE RULES OF THE ****ING ROAD STILL APPLY EVEN WHEN IT'S SNOWING SO STOP BEING IDIOTS!

i don't see how winter tyres are gonna improve most of the problems we're having.

so true

I had a woman nearly skid into the back of me three times last night yet still refused to drop back from less than a foot from my rear bumper. Same thing this morning, guy up my arse all the way down the Merrion road, then swerved into the bus lane to under take me aggressively eventhough my back end had skidded no more than 10 seconds before the under took me

Funfair

Winter tyres differ from regular versions in the tread patterns and the compound of the rubber. According to Colm Conyngham of Bridgestone Ireland, once road temperatures rise above freezing, the grip is inferior to regular tyres.
“These tyres don’t perform as well as regular tyres once temperatures return to positive figures and on wet roads. Practically speaking most people would need a few weeks advanced notice of a cold spell to get a chance to get their tyres changed at a garage and would need to change them back once the weather improved. It would be pretty expensive for most motorists, given that they’d probably only get a few days use out of the winter tyres over a year,” he says. “Also, many tyre outlets don’t stock winter tyres as there is not really a market for them.”

So the answer to the OP is Winter tyres are not practical for us in Ireland yet unless we get this weather for 3-4 months of the year rather then the 3-4 weeks we got so far.

Mr.David

Funfair wrote: »

According to Colm Conyngham of Bridgestone Ireland, once road temperatures rise above freezing, the grip is inferior to regular tyres.

Colm is wrong then.

Unless Bridgestone make a really crappy winter tyre!

Its almost universally quoted that winters are more effective at temps below 7C meaning we could probably use them for 4-5 months per year.

Sandwlch

What are winter tyres ?

ShadowHearth

right, i am originally from lithuania, and there you are forced by law to have winter tyres. So even when you buy car, asking about second set of tyres is as normal as checking nct date on the car.

Ofc in lithuania you get about 4 months of pure snow/ice/cold etc... having winter tyres is a must! driving in blinding snow at -30 is not very fun, cant imagine doing that with summer tyres...


i am in ireland 5 ++ years now, and this is second winter when i actually see winter with snow lol. Its bad out there, but its not as that bad, people just need to stop being sh*t on the road...they newer encountered snow and moust of the time they do the opposite to what you need to do, i am not even talking about grandmothers in brand new micra or aygos... just makes you ./facepalm. People need practise. :rolleyes:

I drive to work everyday with wide summer tyres+RWD+LSD+400hp ( worse combination you could get for this weather lol ) and i dont have much of a trouble, and yes i have to drive on back roads, which are not cleaned at all.

shouting out that we need to be forced to buy winter tyres is overreaction... I can bet that in a few weaks weather will calm down and we wil see snow rarely again. Winter tyres are not great when tempretures become normal...

People cant afford anather set of tyres at this stage. I can bet retailer are screwing everyone with the prices on winter tyres now, as alot of people love to panic here. We all know well how easy it is to bring your own tyres to workshop and get them changed... i payed 80 quid just to put 4 tyres which i bought for 150eu (T1Rs)... I know ateast 3 more people who cant afford just any new tyres as the ones they got are bold... they just walk to work now...

Funfair

Sandwlch wrote: »

What are winter tyres ?

Tyres you use in the summer what else could they be..:rolleyes: doh!!

Piri

Funfair wrote: »

Winter tyres differ from regular versions in the tread patterns and the compound of the rubber. According to Colm Conyngham of Bridgestone Ireland, once road temperatures rise above freezing, the grip is inferior to regular tyres.
“These tyres don’t perform as well as regular tyres once temperatures return to positive figures and on wet roads. Practically speaking most people would need a few weeks advanced notice of a cold spell to get a chance to get their tyres changed at a garage and would need to change them back once the weather improved. It would be pretty expensive for most motorists, given that they’d probably only get a few days use out of the winter tyres over a year,” he says. “Also, many tyre outlets don’t stock winter tyres as there is not really a market for them.”

So the answer to the OP is Winter tyres are not practical for us in Ireland yet unless we get this weather for 3-4 months of the year rather then the 3-4 weeks we got so far.

Bridgestone has no wintertyres in stock
That is the truth

Paparazzo

No way. Changing types twice a year? Far too expensive.
Idiots driving at 5kph are the biggest problem. Traffic tomorrow should be grand, all the zero confidence drivers won't be out.

Funfair

Piri wrote: »

Bridgestone has no wintertyres in stock
That is the truth

In Ireland they don't need to but if you go to Bridgestone in Finland or Germany etc.. places that get snow for the winter every year they would have them in stock.

If Colm Conyngham, Marketing and Public Relations Manager at Bridgestone says we don't need them in Ireland that's good enough for me but if you'd rather take advice off a guy on here with a Pseudonym, work away mate don't let me stop ya!!

bazzachazza

My problem with this plan is, Who is liable when average temp in the middle of the winter tyre enforcement period rises above 7c and we get a spate of accidents because of the tyres. We get very mild periods here in Ireland in the middle of winter. I think we have to be very careful about going down the route of LEGAL enforcement.

I'm intending on getting another A6 with quattro and going the winter tyre route in either 2012 or 2013.

I did vote in favour but I think it should only enforced after a long review of average temps and conditions and possible implications.

djimi

Unless this weather becomes an annual event I dont think we have the climate to warrant bringing in a law to make winter tires manditory tbh. Up until last winter we got a couple of weeks of light snow max per winter; certainly not enough to justify forcing people to change to winter tires. Maybe a couple more years of this might change that outlook tho.

Funfair

Paparazzo wrote: »

Idiots driving at 5kph .

Exactly these are the fools causing more acidents then the speed merchants.. Drives me insane sitting behind mainly the over 60's full of valium or prozac or likewise medication living in a dream world fluting around at there leisure.

Funfair

In Germany where its Law to have winter tyres in the winter months if you have an accident , and you are the only party without winter tyres, then the accident is legally your fault - regardless of circumstances...

DO we really want to go down this road...

kippy

Mr.David wrote: »

Would you support making winter tyres a legal requirement in Ireland as per some other European nations?

On the one hand it would make a difference to the chaos at the moment, and would make it a safer place both as a driver and pedestrian. Less delays and disruptions would also benefit the economy - less people taking time off work etc.

On the other hand, it would be expensive. And difficult to police.

What are your opinions?

No.
We dont get THAT much snow and we dont get it for long enough.
We'll be back to the wind and rain next week.

Matt Simis

Funfair wrote: »

If Colm Conyngham, Marketing and Public Relations Manager at Bridgestone says we don't need them in Ireland that's good enough for me but if you'd rather take advice off a guy on here with a Pseudonym, work away mate don't let me stop ya!!

I used to work in Marketing too, Im glad to see there are still those with the naivety of children to lap up the Marketeers dogma. If I was working for Bridgestone Ireland and looked at my Channel Stock and saw 100% Summer tyres, but realised there may be consumer demand for Winter tyres that I cannot fulfil (as there is no stock, its used up on mainland Europe) you know what Id do? Id agree with Colm and tell everyone they are useless, but if you look over here at my excellent Summer tyre selection...

I would totally put more faith in a fellow motorist with no Commercial agenda (aka "guy with a Pseudonym" as you put it) than a Marketing drone.


PS: When you first posted this I honestly thought you were being cleverly sarcastic... facepalm on your behalf.

kippy wrote: »

No.
We dont get THAT much snow and we dont get it for long enough.
We'll be back to the wind and rain next week.

Im assuming you and the others measuring weeks of Snow are completely unaware that Summer tyres do not perform well in Wet, Rainy Cold weather either?
Lets just clarify something here - Winter tyres are not "Snow Tyres" -> Winter tyres are for driving in Winter temps, whatever the conditions

Absurdum

Colm Conyngham made those comments in January 2010 (link)

I wonder if he still feels the same after the snow today, his office is in Balbriggan where there was virtually no snow in January but has had a good dumping today?

kippy

Matt Simis wrote: »

Im assuming you and the others measuring weeks of Snow are completely unaware that Summer tyres do not perform well in Wet, Rainy Cold weather either?
Lets just clarify something here - Winter tyres are not "Snow Tyres" -> Winter tyres are for driving in Winter temps, whatever the conditions

Here is a breakdown of the Irish Climate (including the "out of the ordinary snow years")
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_of_Ireland

We dont need to have a legal requirement for "winter tyres".
The "MAIN" focus of winter tyres is braking distance in snow and ice.
They dont market them because of their improved braking distance in wet.

That being said, point taken.

bernardo mac

Funfair wrote: »

Exactly these are the fools causing more acidents then the speed merchants.. Drives me insane sitting behind mainly the over 60's full of valium or prozac or likewise medication living in a dream world fluting around at there leisure.

I should hope the owner of the above statement is more mature at driving :rolleyes: We're probably experiencing a cycle of extreme winters and maybe better summers.Winter tyres should be made available at a reasonable price but still optional.

conneem-TT

Mr.David wrote: »

Colm is wrong then.

Unless Bridgestone make a really crappy winter tyre!

Its almost universally quoted that winters are more effective at temps below 7C meaning we could probably use them for 4-5 months per year.

That is true and it is not an abrupt change at 7oC, think of it as two curves meeting at 7oC where summers are better going to higher temps and winter's below 7oc and at 7oc they are about equal.

The initial outlay is off putting for sure but over a longer term you are saving wear on your summer tyres while the winters are on, so tyre wise you won't be spending too much extra. The cost of swapping tyres is another issue though but if you invest in a cheapish second set of wheels so to have it that you only have to change wheels then that is less hassle and those wheels will have a sell on value too to maybe someone else wanting to make up a winter set.

Mr.David

bazzachazza wrote: »

My problem with this plan is, Who is liable when average temp in the middle of the winter tyre enforcement period rises above 7c and we get a spate of accidents because of the tyres

Winter tyres are perfectly safe for use in temperatures above 7C. At the extremes, they are slightly outperformed by summers.

But, all tyres are not equal anyway (Triangles vs Continentals) and when you add in tread wear etc, I dont think it would be an issue.

I know I'd rather be driving a premium high performing winter tyre with plenty of tread during the summer than some half worn budget widow-maker.

Funfair

Matt Simis wrote: »

I used to work in Marketing too, Im glad to see there are still those with the naivety of children to lap up the Marketeers dogma. If I was working for Bridgestone Ireland and looked at my Channel Stock and saw 100% Summer tyres, but realised there may be consumer demand for Winter tyres that I cannot fulfil (as there is no stock, its used up on mainland Europe) you know what Id do? Id agree with Colm and tell everyone they are useless, but if you look over here at my excellent Summer tyre selection...

I would totally put more faith in a fellow motorist with no Commercial agenda (aka "guy with a Pseudonym" as you put it) than a Marketing drone.

I guess this kinda puts a spanner in your conspiracy theory about marketing guys..

http://ssl.delti.com/cgi-bin/rshop.pl

Plenty of Bridgestone winter tyres on that site available to Ireland..

The way to go is ALL SEASON TYRES me thinks

http://ssl.delti.com/cgi-bin/rshop.pl

Matt Simis

Funfair wrote: »

I guess this kinda puts a spanner in your conspiracy theory about marketing guys..

http://ssl.delti.com/cgi-bin/rshop.pl

Plenty of Bridgestone winter tyres on that site available to Ireland..

The way to go is ALL SEASON TYRES me thinks

http://ssl.delti.com/cgi-bin/rshop.pl

Eh not really... did you miss my point entirely? The Channel (ie the Tire Fitters) across Ireland (and mostly UK too) sell Summer tyres nearly exclusively.
Just because an online (and foreign) entity like Eiretyres (Reifen or whatever rebranding localise to) have some stock doesnt help the local tyre place. To Bridgestone and their channel partners thats a grey market import. Thats precisely what he wants to stop people doing, ordering Winters online vs going to a local fitters who buys from a local disti who buys from Bridgestone. The Tyre allotment for Ireland is Summer tyres. They dont have Winters to sell you, dont want to bring them in (and likely cannot get them, its been quoted several times), they want you to buy what they have got, Summers.

I dont think you are getting how segregated and non-consumer friendly retail business actually is. They do not give a crap that they just sold a set of +40c Rated Summer tyres on a day when it was -8.5c at lunchtime. This is why some regulation would be helpful.


PS: All Seasons can be good or woeful pending the brand and tyre. Winter Tyres are a certified grade of tyre, anything can be an "All Season", its not a standard. I totally support good AS tyres, but getting them is a massive chore and extremely misleading for the average consumer. Winters were invented due to a large amount of deaths directly attributed to All Seasons tyres underperforming in Winter.
PPS: Your links are broken, goto mainpage.

GTE

I voted for them.

Its very simple really.

Winter spec tyres are better for the road conditions that I have faced since October/November.
Before I made the switch to my Snowflake mark tyres my Summers were letting go on cold wet roads in certain conditions. Extreme ones I admit but they wouldnt have let go in the Summer like that. My tyres were great in the Summer but were woeful when it got cold.

Seals the deal with me my new ones dont just work in the right temperature range but they work in the snow too.

Will it come in?
I doubt it. There is to much ignorance across a range of issues among the Irish driving public and officials to see it in.

GTE

Funfair wrote: »

I guess this kinda puts a spanner in your conspiracy theory about marketing guys..

http://ssl.delti.com/cgi-bin/rshop.pl

Plenty of Bridgestone winter tyres on that site available to Ireland..

The way to go is ALL SEASON TYRES me thinks

http://ssl.delti.com/cgi-bin/rshop.pl

I see where you are coming from but you are mistaken.
Eiretyres.com is the Irish wing of a huge organisation with many many other branches in other countries. I believe they are based in Germany, so they have a huge multi-country range of tyres available to all.
Its so easy for them to offer it in Ireland as its just a bit of website design.

The point that was made is that the Irish based tyre centres dont stock Winters.

EDIT:
On the All Season note I agree. I have a full set of Hankook All Seasons and I have been very impressed. I now have a tyre that can suit the conditions all year round.
However, according to a couple of sources the Hankook and Goodyear All Seasons are the only All Seasons that really work in the snow and in all round conditions.
So, thats at least two All Season tyres

Owen

Bad idea IMHO. Why should I be forced to buy a second set of tyres just because people don't know how to drive? I'm doing perfectly fine on my normal tires with the pressures dropped, traction off and driving the correct way in snow/ice. I was up in Tralee/Lyxnaw at the weekend when people were sliding everywhere, and I was ploughing along just fine. Educate drivers first, force mandatory purchasing of tires as a last resort.

It's a knee-jerk reaction and would only further reinforce the nanny state we have here.

GTE

PaintDoctor wrote: »

Bad idea IMHO. Why should I be forced to buy a second set of tyres just because people don't know how to drive? I'm doing perfectly fine on my normal tires with the pressures dropped, traction off and driving the correct way in snow/ice. I was up in Tralee/Lyxnaw at the weekend when people were sliding everywhere, and I was ploughing along just fine. Educate drivers first, force mandatory purchasing of tires as a last resort.

It's a knee-jerk reaction and would only further reinforce the nanny state we have here.

Although I agree with you about driver education I know that if we did a brake test with your car and mine, or even identical cars with your tyres and my ones I would stop before you and I would lose grip when cornering after you.

Its very easy to say slow down and drive properly but in my mind being able to speed up is not why Winter tyres should be pushed more or made mandatory. The simple fact of the matter is that the the Winter tyres will grip more in situations when you need to slow down heavily or swerve among other situations.

One of the things that I would like to see is that when there is snow like this people who cause crashes who have Summer tyres fitted, or tyres that dont suit the conditions get the book thrown at them by the insurance company. Additionally any Garda checks that finds someone using Summer tyres in the conditions that the M50 is in today and yesterday should have punishments handed out.
If you need to drive in these conditions have your car suited for the conditions.


bernardo mac:
If I had got all 4 of my tyres last Summer (when I only got 2) it would have been 60 to 70 a corner.
When I got the other two a couple of weeks ago it had gone up to 110 a corner. The tyre sellers are not our friends in this sense. Get them in the Summer and you will have good pricing.

Owen

bbk wrote: »

Although I agree with you about driver education I know that if we did a brake test with your car and mine, or even identical cars with your tyres and my ones I would stop before you and I would lose grip when cornering after you.

How do you know that though? Did you do any of the driver training courses I did? Or are you just hoping the magical tyres will cure all? I've done enough emergency stop training to be confident that I'd do better than most people in the same situation regardless of tires, and on top of that, I know how to balance a car appropriately in a corner before committing to any manouver. So given that (And not wanting to be an I'm great, look at me poster), why should I have to pay for other people's insecurities, and inabilities?*

*Not necessarily yours.

Personally, I wouldn't be putting myself into a situation where I have to brake hard, or corner hard in snow/ice. I drive defensively, and smoothly in these conditions. Smoothness, gentle inputs, momentum when needed, and appropriate speeds cure all in this weather. I made it up a hill in my normal car, with normal tires in Kerry this weekend that everyone was sliding around on, bearing in mind my car from a technical point of view is no gem when it comes to drivers aids.

GTE

PaintDoctor wrote: »

How do you know that though? Did you do any of the driver training courses I did? Or are you just hoping the magical tyres will cure all?

Personally, I wouldn't be putting myself into a situation where i have to brake hard, or corner hard in snow/ice. I drive defensively, and smoothly in these conditions. Smoothness, gentle inputs, momentum when needed, and appropriate speeds cure all in this weather. I made it up a hill in my normal car, with normal tires in Kerry this weekend that everyone was sliding around on, bearing in mind my car from a technical point of view is no gem when it comes to drivers aids.

I have not done any advanced driving courses.

On to the relevant things I have felt the A/B comparison on the same stretch of road when I got my tyres switched in the middle of the snow and ice a week or two ago.

No hoping for something here. I have first hand experience that the point at which my new tyres lose grip is further then my old Summers. I tested it.

With respect, I dont believe that anyone can predict the situations like you make out. You can drive as defensively as you wish but you cant predict the future. Additionally what you have said does not prove to me that you have more grip then your car on Winters.

EDIT:

To deal with your edit:

How do you know that though? Did you do any of the driver training courses I did? Or are you just hoping the magical tyres will cure all? I've done enough emergency stop training to be confident that I'd do better than most people in the same situation regardless of tires, and on top of that, I know how to balance a car appropriately in a corner before committing to any manouver. So given that (And not wanting to be an I'm great, look at me poster), why should I have to pay for other people's insecurities, and inabilities?*

*Not necessarily yours.

I have never said the tyres are magical. That is daft and petty arguing on your part.
I know that you will agree that if you did the same emergency stop with Winter tyres you would stop in a shorter distance and would continue to do so as the speed increased or decreased.
The reason you will have to pay is because I believe your car is unfit for the conditions if it is indeed fitted with Summer spec tyres.
You may never fall off the road this Winter but you will be riding the thin line between grip and no grip and that makes you a danger to others in my opinion.

Personally, I wouldn't be putting myself into a situation where I have to brake hard, or corner hard in snow/ice. I drive defensively, and smoothly in these conditions. Smoothness, gentle inputs, momentum when needed, and appropriate speeds cure all in this weather.

I find that hard to believe that you mean that. How you think you can predict the future is interesting to say the least.

daRobot

Funfair wrote: »

If Colm Conyngham, Marketing and Public Relations Manager at Bridgestone says we don't need them in Ireland that's good enough for me but if you'd rather take advice off a guy on here with a Pseudonym, work away mate don't let me stop ya!!

::Cringe::

Matt Simis

PaintDoctor wrote: »

How do you know that though? Did you do any of the driver training courses I did? Or are you just hoping the magical tyres will cure all? I've done enough emergency stop training to be confident that I'd do better than most people in the same situation regardless of tires, and on top of that, I know how to balance a car appropriately in a corner before committing to any manouver..

Do you really thinking that training overcomes the sheer crippling limitations of your equipment? You dont know when you need to do an emergency stop.

I was driving at 65mph a week ago on an empty clear new road, no ice but cold (-3) and frosty out. A strangely large fox ran across the road then basically stopped directly in front of me. There is simply no way I would have braked fast enough in Summer tyres. Even without driving training I know not to jerk the wheel or anything so stupid, but pure straight line, let ABS do its thing braking, there is no chance the Summers would have done it in time.

Driver training stops you getting stuck on hills and other moronic things. It doesnt make your tyres grip when they are rock hard and way out of their design spec. You will not be able to outbrake or outcorner even the average motorist on winter tyres in the same car on summers.

Owen

bbk wrote: »

With respect, I dont believe that anyone can predict the situations like you make out. You can drive as defensively as you wish but you cant predict the future.

+1, which is why driver training is key, not silly tyres. We get temps like this for at most a month a year. Whether you're on your winter tires, or I'm on my normal ones, an accident may occur. What driver training does, is teach you to anticipate where those problems may happen and be prepared for them. It certainly won't reduce 100% of accidents, but it'll being 90% of them out of the way - regardless of the tires you use.

Additionally what you have said does not prove to me that you have more grip then your car on Winters.

I didn't try to prove that, so I don't get your point. I said I'm doing fine on my normal ones, so why should I need to pay more money for winter tires?

Owen

Matt Simis wrote: »

Do you really thinking that training overcomes the sheer crippling limitations of your equipment? You dont know when you need to do an emergency stop.

Absolutely agree, but I don't agree with the sensationalism of 'crippling limitations of your equipment'. I just don't. My car's doing fine, I'm doing fine. I've done so in Ireland 2 years now. Same car on same tires has done remarkably well in Poland too in colder temparatures than this, with more cars on the road.

I'm saying that driver training is the most important thing. Winter tires while wonderful are not necessary for all drivers in all situations, but definitely beneficial for some. So why force all drivers then to buy them?

A bit of driver training, a bit of common sense would do a lot more good than a cumpulsory tax of 3/400 euro for tires, and potentially more for a second set of wheels to fit them to.

Matt Simis

PaintDoctor wrote: »

+1, which is why driver training is key, not silly tyres. We get temps like this for at most a month a year. Whether you're on your winter tires, or I'm on my normal ones, an accident may occur.

Lol@ Silly Tyres
We get temps below +7 for 3mths a year, not 1mth. Unless you are picking your own number and telling the Tyre manufactures they are incorrect.

PaintDoctor wrote: »

I didn't try to prove that, so I don't get your point. I said I'm doing fine on my normal ones, so why should I need to pay more money for winter tires?

Cos your definition of fine is in comparison to people who cannot drive with Summer tyres! If you were surrounded by people in Winter tyres you would be the one causing the obstruction, sliding around etc by comparison. No amount of training makes your Summers perform even close to Winters, you will be disabled by comparison.
Even if you are so awesome you dont need correct tyres for the weather, what happens when someone slides on ice or snow into you?

GTE

PaintDoctor wrote: »

+1, which is why driver training is key, not silly tyres. We get temps like this for at most a month a year. Whether you're on your winter tires, or I'm on my normal ones, an accident may occur. What driver training does, is teach you to anticipate where those problems may happen and be prepared for them. It certainly won't reduce 100% of accidents, but it'll being 90% of them out of the way - regardless of the tires you use.

You will find that we get road temps of -7 degrees a lot more then a month a year.

Driver training is a major part of the problem on Irish roads in general. I will agree with you there. I will go on to say that the ignorance level some of the driving public here is astounding but driving skill will not negate the deficiency of parts of your car, in this case tyres.

PaintDoctor wrote: »

I didn't try to prove that, so I don't get your point. I said I'm doing fine on my normal ones, so why should I need to pay more money for winter tires?

You are presenting your side of the argument that driver skill is more important then tyre grip. What you have failed to do (and I am sure I have failed on the flip side) is to convince me that driver skill on its own will make up for the fact that the car is fundamentally lacking in the grip it could have with a good Winter tyre.

I have said on a few occasions already that no member here worth holding value in their opinion will say that Winter tyres = no crashing. That attitude is as daft as the one that Winter = snow.

Of course drivers education comes into it. To that end it has to be assumed that when we talk about Winter tyres as a group of people on a forum that we all posses the right skills and we can have a constructive debate on it.

An idiot on Summers will be an idiot on Winters.
A good driver, which I like to think I am, will still be a good driver on Winters. The difference being is I will have more grip to suit the conditions.

Owen

bbk wrote: »

I find that hard to believe that you mean that. How you think you can predict the future is interesting to say the least.

Oh for the love of ****ing god.

I didn't say 'predict the future'. I said reduce the potential of accidents from 100% down to maybe 10%.

I'm also not saying winter tyres are bad, so please all of you stop telling me I'm saying that. I'm saying winter tires are fine, some people need them, hell, I even think they're a good idea. I'm saying assuming all people need them is stupid. I'm saying forcing people who are f*cked for cash to pay for an extra set fo tires if they don't need them is stupid.

Matt Simis

PaintDoctor wrote: »

I'm saying assuming all people need them is stupid. I'm saying forcing people who are f*cked for cash to pay for an extra set fo tires if they don't need them is stupid.

I think you are asscociating the "people" and the conditions too closely.
The temperature determines if we need Winter tyres or not, not a percent of the populations driving ability (or lack of).
Secondly, a bit of "driver education"... lets be brutally honest here, this is not ever going to happen. We have what, 2million cars on the road, good chunk of them driven by people with no driving test (so old or L Plates). The rest mostly driven by people as A+B runabouts. None of these people are going to goto Drivers Ed to "learn" howto drive and cut accident chance by that fantastic 90% you quote. None of them. Driver Ed also wont help everyone in iced over housing estates.

Bringing in tyres that almost allow normality on the roads from November to Feb is safer for everyone and feasible, beaming driver education to the populace is pie in the sky talk.

GTE

PaintDoctor wrote: »

Oh for the love of ****ing god.
I didn't say 'predict the future'.

PaintDoctor wrote: »

I wouldn't be putting myself into a situation where i have to brake hard

Sorry, you are predicting the future. My bad.

Owen

It's a retarded idea. I'm sorry, but it is. I have an elderly mother, and an eldery neighbour who potter about in their cars. If it's icy, or snowy, they stay in. Am I supposed to knock on their doors now and say "Sorry Mum, someone from the Internet had a hissy fit, and now from October until March you'll have to have special tires even if it's a nice warm day and especially seeing as you don't drive on the bad days - you'll have to give me 300 Euro".

It's a blanket tax - and that's entirely whats wrong with it. I agree with the principle, but the practise of it is wrong. I'd happily see the Government do something different like run a huge campaign about the benefit, and even not charge VAT as they're safety items, and maybe the RSA could do some good and contribute towards fitting charges. But still leave people with the choice.

Owen

bbk wrote: »

Sorry, you are predicting the future. My bad.

No, you're reading into things which aren't there. I said "I wouldn't put myself into a situation where I needed to brake hard" in terms of (And maybe I should have been really clear, because this is the Internet and people will argue to death until they're right, and nothing else will do) situations which are avoidable - and can be prevented with defensive driver training. It's pretty obvious that if a dog runs out in front of you you're kinda screwed no matter what tires you're on, etc.

GTE

PaintDoctor wrote: »

It's a retarded idea. I'm sorry, but it is. I have an elderly mother, and an eldery neighbour who potter about in their cars. If it's icy, or snowy, they stay in. Am I supposed to knock on their doors now and say "Sorry Mum, someone from the Internet had a hissy fit, and now from October until March you'll have to have special tires even if it's a nice warm day and especially seeing as you don't drive on the bad days - you'll have to give me 300 Euro".

It's a blanket tax - and that's entirely whats wrong with it. I agree with the principle, but the practise of it is wrong. I'd happily see the Government do something different like run a huge campaign about the benefit, and even not charge VAT as they're safety items, and maybe the RSA could do some good and contribute towards fitting charges. But still leave people with the choice.

I am not having a hissy fit, I am trying to have a debate with you about Winter tyres.

To clear up one thing my plan would be that if anyone is caught on the roads without suitable tyres should be punished. Your family members who dont go out in the ice and snow would not be hit by it.

With that dealt with I don't find your attitude towards the subject mature or constructive so Ill leave it here with regards to you.
Im sure you will call it a second hissy fit none the less :rolleyes:

Owen

bbk wrote: »

To clear up one thing my plan would be that if anyone is caught on the roads without suitable tyres should be punished. Your family members who dont go out in the ice and snow would not be hit by it.

Of course they would. If this ridiculous additional tax (Which is what it would be, 1300 euro road tax not enough sir? Have an additional 400 Euro for winter tires) is brought in, how are they going to enforce it. Have us all out on the road each morning like a rally team changing wheels to suit tarmac/gravel/snow? No, this is Ireland, and like all stupidly thought out plans, they'll just bring in something sweeping like October - March shall be winter tire months, those without shall be beaten severly.

I still stand by what I said in my first post. This sort of idea is Nanny-Stateism. It's not thought out, and forces people to pay yet an additional tax to drive in Ireland who may not need winter tires at all as I've made my cases out before.

This is Ireland, not Norway. It's been cold for 3 weeks or so. When we start getting cold spells of 3 months or so, come back to me. And yes, perhaps my arguments weren't quite as mature as they should be, but I get emotional each time the ability for me to get in my car and drive it gets more difficult.

I'm not saying anymore on the subject, I've made my points, but no doubt someone'll tear this, and my previous ones apart as is the way on here. Belt away, it still won't change my mind and still won't change the stupidity of bringing this in on a compulsary basis - definitely by all means recommend it to death, subsidise it, remove VAT and do a big media blitz about it, but making it compulsary is too far IMHO.

GTE

kippy wrote: »

Here is a breakdown of the Irish Climate (including the "out of the ordinary snow years")
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_of_Ireland

We dont need to have a legal requirement for "winter tyres".
The "MAIN" focus of winter tyres is braking distance in snow and ice.
They dont market them because of their improved braking distance in wet.

That being said, point taken.

I agree the legal requirement is not needed. Enforcement during the snow and ice at the least is needed.*
I agree to the main focus but would add to that the general cold temps.

http://www.met.ie/climate/temperature.asp

This is a more reliable source then Wiki can ever be and judging by the graphs I see around 6 months a year where the temps would be in the Winter range tyre wise.

*A debate that I am undecided on is the crossover point (temp) on dry/wet tarmac where a Summer tyre is passed out by a Winter in terms of grip, braking distances etc. It is not definitive by any means. Each tyre would be different.

I do however believe that my current winter spec tyres are better then my old Summers from around October of this year. The Summer ones were letting go when they wouldnt have in the same road in the Summer.

Absurdum

PaintDoctor wrote: »

Of course they would. If this ridiculous additional tax (Which is what it would be, 1300 euro road tax not enough sir? Have an additional 400 Euro for winter tires) is brought in, how are they going to enforce it. Have us all out on the road each morning like a rally team changing wheels to suit tarmac/gravel/snow? No, this is Ireland, and like all stupidly thought out plans, they'll just bring in something sweeping like October - March shall be winter tire months, those without shall be beaten severly.

I still stand by what I said in my first post. This sort of idea is Nanny-Stateism. It's not thought out, and forces people to pay yet an additional tax to drive in Ireland who may not need winter tires at all as I've made my cases out before.

This is Ireland, not Norway. It's been cold for 3 weeks or so. When we start getting cold spells of 3 months or so, come back to me. And yes, perhaps my arguments weren't quite as mature as they should be, but I get emotional each time the ability for me to get in my car and drive it gets more difficult.

I'm not saying anymore on the subject, I've made my points, but no doubt someone'll tear this, and my previous ones apart as is the way on here. Belt away, it still won't change my mind and still won't change the stupidity of bringing this in on a compulsary basis - definitely by all means recommend it to death, subsidise it, remove VAT and do a big media blitz about it, but making it compulsary is too far IMHO.

relax, the OP was just asking a question - it is not going to be a legal requirement and there has been no mention of it from the government/RSA

BostonB

Matt Simis wrote: »

...All Seasons can be good or woeful pending the brand and tyre. Winter Tyres are a certified grade of tyre, anything can be an "All Season", its not a standard. I totally support good AS tyres, but getting them is a massive chore and extremely misleading for the average consumer. Winters were invented due to a large amount of deaths directly attributed to All Seasons tyres underperforming in Winter.
PPS: Your links are broken, goto mainpage.

Were those winters comparable to ours, and do you have links to that.

I take the point about average temps. But ignoring this year last time I remember bad weather like this was in the 80's. 30 yrs ago.

GTE

BostonB wrote: »

Were those winters comparable to ours, and do you have links to that.

I take the point about average temps. But ignoring this year last time I remember bad weather like this was in the 80's. 30 yrs ago.

Stemming from Winter tyres you can have what the US and Canadian board users seem to call Highway Winters, like the Hankook W300's I believe. Designed for the cold dry and wet roads and some snow and ice but nothing compared to the real heavy full on snow tyres. Once the decision (dictated by temp) has been decided for Winters the next question is snow ones or motorway ones. Roughly speaking. That is just some rough speaking from things I have read about.

If we had the Winters we get when there is no snow Id say the Highway Winters would be the best choice.


I think thats what you were getting at. Apologies if its a complete tangent.

Vertakill

To be honest, the majority of drivers in this country at the moment are really not coping well with these conditions.

So, guaging your abilities based on a really, really low benchmark is not a good idea.

As has been hinted on before, I guarantee if we were driving on our summer tires in Austria right now, we'd be in a ditch somewhere because people would be travelling much faster there because they're better equipped and more experienced for this weather... and we'd be trying to keep up in the summers.

I've gotten away with driving a 350Z on summer tires throughout this winter on some shockingly bad and icey back roads by just being very careful, but since the big downfall of snow in the last 2 days, I've taken a somewhat-AWD CX7 with all-weathers to work... and while it's better, I can't help but feel unprepared and it'd be sooo much easier with winter tires on either car.

Some people are on winters and travelling along at a decent pace without issue, then you've got the people absolutely CRAWLING along at walking pace because they're absolutely petrified on top of just being a sh1t driver using summer tires... it's just an absolute mess.

The conditions we've had in some areas over the last couple of days are just as bad as some ski resorts in central Europe... yet we're still farting around with summer tires - it's ridiculous as well as dangerous and the people that don't think so are either just cheap, stubborn, think they're gods gift to driving or have been travelling on cleared/gritted/salted roads to/from work the last few weeks without hitting any proper dodgy back roads.

Matt Simis

BostonB wrote: »

Were those winters comparable to ours, and do you have links to that.

I take the point about average temps. But ignoring this year last time I remember bad weather like this was in the 80's. 30 yrs ago.

"Those Winters" referring to what exactly? The All Seasons and their issues were years ago in Canada, so no, their Winters are not the same. However that makes no odds as the point remains that All Season is a title anyone can put on any tire.
Have a look yourself, some of the AS are crap in Snow and Ice (I tried some myself and the ones I tried were bad too):
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/surveyresults/surveydisplay.jsp?type=HPAS

The Mountain Snowflake symbol is what you need to look out for which is on all true winters and some All Seasons (ie the ones at the top of the Ice/Snow testing in that list.

BostonB

Matt Simis wrote: »

...Winters were invented due to a large amount of deaths directly attributed to All Seasons tyres underperforming in Winter.....

The winters where all seasons caused a large amount of deaths.

Any stats on the deaths in summer are caused by people driving on winters?

I assume the reverse would have to be true?