A Series of Unfortunate Events

YellowBoxStop

And the conversation went like this:

Garda: Do you know why I pulled you over?

ME: No

Garda: Did you not see what happened back there?

ME: Yeah I did. Wasnt my fault.

Garda: You blocked the junction.

ME: Another car changed lanes

Garda: Doesnt matter, you have to wait til your junction exit is clear.

Me: My lane was clear, another car in front of me changed lanes.

Garda: Im not sure what you are trying to say to me.

Me: That my lane was clear and another car changed lanes, blocking my exit.

Garda: You have to wait til the junction is clear

(At this point i am a bit tired and just get a little short with him because I know he hasnt seen what stopped me clearing the junction.)

Me: It was clear Garda, I dont know what you seen.

Garda: I seen you blocking the junction

Me: Yeah right, OK.

He takes my license, reg, tax, insurance and the rest of the details. Says to me there will be something sent out in the post That was pretty much it.

Then I asked him why he stopped the purple car from the diagram - he said "the same thing as you. blocking the junction."

Again I ask him did he see the car that changed lanes? He seemed very annoyed that I asked him this again and said "But you didnt wait til the box was clear!" really waving his hands around, he really was getting annoyed.

I said "OK fair enough, merry christmas garda."

I was a bit short with him because ive had big family issues lately and a little mickey mouse fine and penalty points will be the least of my worries.

So basically Im just wondering what I can do with this now? As far as i know, you can move into a yellow box junction when you seen your exit is clear. My exit was clear until the red car in the diagram changed lanes and left me stuck in the box when the lights changed.

E39MSport

You broke the golden (not yellow) rule....

Don't fcuk with the Garda. Smile, be polite, plead your case and hope for the best.

Swampy

That would really piss me off. Unfortunately some gardai are just ignorant.

gurramok

Its unfortunate what happened to you and the Garda according to your account is probably lying in that he saw the whole thing.

Prepare for the high horse brigade on this thread as if the event never happened to them before.

Cookie_Monster

were you already moving across the box as the red car pulled into your lane?

If so I'd put you in the right, him in the wrong and Garda as a non-understanding numpty.

Where did the purple car come from, the left hand junction or same as you?

YellowBoxStop

E39MSport wrote: »

You broke the golden (not yellow) rule....

Don't fcuk with the Garda. Smile, be polite, plead your case and hope for the best.

Yeah I know... I wasnt in the mood for pleading, but i was being very polite.

Would it make a difference to go to the station, ask to see him and tell him sorry for being short with him?

I'm thinking, if hes already done the paperwork then there wouldnt be a point. Maybe he hasnt (but think of the overtime over christmas ) and all I might be doing is giving him a reminder?

As for the penalty points lads - do they usually come in 1s or can/would a garda slap on a few others that might vaguely relate to that situation above?

- Failing to observe mandatory traffic signals at a junction
is the best one i can see for my case but would others like "driving without undue consideration" and "driving too close to the car in front" come into play?

YellowBoxStop

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

were you already moving across the box as the red car pulled into your lane?

If so I'd put you in the right, him in the wrong and Garda as a non-understanding numpty.

Where did the purple car come from, the left hand junction or same as you?

Yes I was already in the box as the red car pulled into my lane.

Also that purple car was sitting beside me at the junction waiting for it to clear, I pulled off, red car changes lanes, purple car moved into red cars former spot.

YellowBoxStop

YellowBoxStop wrote: »

As for the penalty points lads - do they usually come in 1s or can/would a garda slap on a few others that might vaguely relate to that situation above?

I got 2 points for holding a phone while driving and a single point for crossing a continous white line at the same time. Fined for both, only got 2 points, apparently if you get a 2 pointer and a 1 pointer at the same time the 2 points only get given.

YellowBoxStop

RoverJames wrote: »

I got 2 points for holding a phone while driving and a single point for crossing a continous white line at the same time. Fined for both, only got 2 points, apparently if you get a 2 pointer and a 1 pointer at the same time the 2 points only get given.

Well at least thats good news.

BigEejit

I had something similiar happen to me, luckily the police office (London) believed me (think he may have seen some or all of it)
.
There was literally 100 yards of empty road on the other side of the junction and the cretin woman in front of me stopped suddenly on the junction (practically ran into her as i wasnt expecting it) to let an old woman cross the road (very slowly) despite us having a green light, after the woman had crossed then our light turned red (pedestrian light turned on as the old woman had pressed the button) and then the green light came on for traffic coming in the other direction with the two of us stopped in the bloody junction. After much beeping the cretin moved forward where we were both pulled in by a cop on a bike. He let me drive on after speaking to me first and then approached the cretins car, I didnt hang around as I was in a rush to get to a job.

Ush1

gurramok wrote: »

Its unfortunate what happened to you and the Garda according to your account is probably lying in that he saw the whole thing.

Prepare for the high horse brigade on this thread as if the event never happened to them before.

+1.

Wait for certain posters to tell you that the Gardaí can do no wrong and you obviously had to be doing something bold.:rolleyes:

The Garda just sounds like a simpleton.

Iwannahurl

Your title says it all: a series of unfortunate events. The worst part of your luck was that there happened to be an apparently over-zealous and pedantic Garda in eye-shot. The outcome otherwise might just have been some very irritated motorists.

If you're having a real run of bad luck, could you be penalised on a strict interpretation of the rule, ie you must not enter the yellow box junction unless you can clear it without stopping?

The text on your well-presented diagrams states that you "expected" the car marked in green to clear the junction. Would that Garda have expected you to hang back and wait for an actual space to appear on the other side?

I'm not saying you're at fault -- not my call. I do think you were unlucky though. This kind of thing must happen frequently, but without a Garda there to step in.

btkm8unsl0w5r4

The garda can only call it as he saw it. I totally understand the OP point and that he had a clear path out of the box untill the other car changes lanes suddenly, however I also understand that the guard hears all sorts of stories for every person he pull in and really at the end of the day can only judge on what he saw not what you claim.

YellowBoxStop

Failure to obey requirements at junctions, e.g. not being in the correct lane when turning onto another road - 1

Failure to leave appropriate distance between you and the vehicle in front - 2

Driving without reasonable consideration - 2

Failure to comply with mandatory traffic signs at junctions - 1

Failure to comply with traffic lane markings - 1



So these are the ones I'm imagining here lads that he could slap on to it.

I reckon you'll only get 2 points

Ush1

Brylee Quiet Wineglass wrote: »

The garda can only call it as he saw it. I totally understand the OP point and that he had a clear path out of the box untill the other car changes lanes suddenly, however I also understand that the guard hears all sorts of stories for every person he pull in and really at the end of the day can only judge on what he saw not what you claim.

What if there was other witnesses or if he got the reg of the car that cut in front of him?

YellowBoxStop

Iwannahurl wrote: »

If you're having a real run of bad luck, could you be done on a strict interpretation of the rule, ie you must not enter the yellow box junction unless you can clear it without stopping?

As far as I know, the rule is not to enter it unless your exit is clear. My exit was clear when I entered it.

RoverJames wrote: »

I reckon you'll only get 2 points

Which ones do you think he'll get me on?

Ush1 wrote: »

What if there was other witnesses or if he got the reg of the car that cut in front of him?

I didnt get anything unfortunately - and due to the hour it happened and where it was, i doubt many people going home for the weekend would notice or care (friday evening around 6pm)

Del2005

YellowBoxStop wrote: »

Failure to obey requirements at junctions, e.g. not being in the correct lane when turning onto another road - 1


Failure to comply with mandatory traffic signs at junctions - 1

Failure to comply with traffic lane markings - 1



So these are the ones I'm imagining here lads that he could slap on to it.

They are the only ones you can be hit with.

Something very similar happened me the other day except we didn't meet a Garda. Entered a yellow box junction with our lane clear to exit and half way across some muppet changed charged into our lane and made us stop in the box. We said we'll get done now for sure if a Garda spots us and they won't believe us.

We where lucky you weren't, hopefully it'll only be 1 point and fine at worst.

YellowBoxStop

What kinda effects does this have on insurance does anyone know?

My options are not limited right now though

- i could dispute this in court (and yes, i know the points and fine double if it goes to court without success for me)

- i could pay up

- i am planning on leaving the country early next year - what happens if i leave without doing anything here?

Iwannahurl

YellowBoxStop wrote: »

As far as I know, the rule is not to enter it unless your exit is clear. My exit was clear when I entered it.

If the Garda arrived just at the point illustrated in the fourth panel of your illustration, then he might think otherwise (purely on the basis of that 'snapshot').

The rule is "you must not enter the yellow box junction unless you can clear it without stopping".

I understand the RoTR are just guidelines, not actual legislation (which I can't find just now*), and I have no idea how your case might come across in court during legal argument.

Is it sufficient just to have a reasonable expectation of being able to clear the yellow box, as suggested in panel #4, or does there have to be an actual car-sized space waiting for you on the other side at the time you enter the box?

For example, what would have happened if the driver labelled with the green arrow was inconsiderate and/or had poor spatial awareness? If s/he stopped just beyond the yellow box for whatever reason, where would you have ended up?








* Here it is (and no it's not as bad as murder): "a driver of a vehicle shall not enter, either partly or wholly, the crosshatched area unless the vehicle can clear the area without stopping."

djimi

YellowBoxStop wrote: »

Failure to obey requirements at junctions, e.g. not being in the correct lane when turning onto another road - 1

Failure to leave appropriate distance between you and the vehicle in front - 2

Driving without reasonable consideration - 2

Failure to comply with mandatory traffic signs at junctions - 1

Failure to comply with traffic lane markings - 1



So these are the ones I'm imagining here lads that he could slap on to it.

As far as I know you can only get points for one thing when stopped; whichever carries the most amount of points. So if youre caught speeding while on the phone and not wearing a seat belt youll get the fine for all three offenses but only 2 points.

As far as I know this is the way it works, but I could be wrong.

And as for your situation, you were in the right but the lesson to be learned is to get your ass across a junction before someone can cut in in front of you! Happened to me a few years ago at the lights at McDonalds in Kylemore; I was half way across the junction when an utter wanker cut across me from the left into the only space available on the far side of the lights. Left me stranded blocking the junction and annoying a lot of people. From then on I just nail it across junctions in case it happens again; if someone tries it theyll have to hit me and I should be able to prove I was in the right.

galwaytt

YellowBoxStop wrote: »

What kinda effects does this have on insurance does anyone know?

My options are not limited right now though

- i could dispute this in court (and yes, i know the points and fine double if it goes to court without success for me)

- i could pay up

- i am planning on leaving the country early next year - what happens if i leave without doing anything here?

I'd go to the station, tbh, and stop it getting to court. It's just too flimsy a case for the Garda, imho.

If it goes to court, yes, I'd dispute it - it either happened as you said, or it didn't - Gda was not in possession of all the facts is what I'd be saying.

YellowBoxStop

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Is it sufficient just to have a reasonable expectation of being able to clear the yellow box, as suggested in panel #4, or does there have to be an actual car-sized space waiting for you on the other side at the time you enter the box?

For example, what would have happened if the driver labelled with the green arrow was inconsiderate and/or had poor spatial awareness? If s/he stopped just beyond the yellow box for whatever reason, where would you have ended up?

* Here it is (and no it's not as bad as murder): "a driver of a vehicle shall not enter, either partly or wholly, the crosshatched area unless the vehicle can clear the area without stopping."

My understanding of it is that you have to wait for a car-sized space waiting for you on the other side - to "clear" the yellow box so. There was this space infront of the green labeled car in front of me and I had not entered until the pedestrian crossed the road and there was clear distance between the end of the yellow box and the back of this car.

I suppose in answer to your second question - i would have ended up with my bum sticking out into the yellow box.

Thanks for the info on the legislation.

djimi wrote: »

As far as I know you can only get points for one thing when stopped; whichever carries the most amount of points. So if youre caught speeding while on the phone and not wearing a seat belt youll get the fine for all three offenses but only 2 points.

That is what I am starting to understand today - before this I have had zero experience with penalty points, endorsements or any license issues, so it is really annoying me that I am being hit with this because of some lad wanting to jump lanes at a busy junction :mad:

Even when you said that you go through junctions quickly - i would be more worried that the red car in this case wouldnt have moved as quickly as me and I would have ended up knocking into his right-wing - then thats my fault

YellowBoxStop

galwaytt wrote: »

I'd go to the station, tbh, and stop it getting to court. It's just too flimsy a case for the Garda, imho.

If it goes to court, yes, I'd dispute it - it either happened as you said, or it didn't - Gda was not in possession of all the facts is what I'd be saying.

Yeah, its the "hey garda, you dont know what your talking about, you didnt see nuffin" attitude that is slightly worrying me.

Then again - he could turn around and say he seen it all and there was no car changing lanes. All I know is that he came from my right hand side. If that went to court, im sure a judge will lean on his side.

Iwannahurl

General point, not specific to your situation.

AFAIK, for certain offences you can be convicted in court on the word of a Garda.

YellowBoxStop

Iwannahurl wrote: »

General point, not specific to your situation.

AFAIK, for certain offences you can be convicted in court on the word of a Garda.

AFAIK 2

Duckjob

Thats hard luck OP.

I very nearly got caught up in the same situation before when some knob-end pulled the same maneuvre on me crossing a yellow box over the LUAS line- Not only ignorant, but downright dangerous.

mcgarrett

Iwannahurl wrote: »

General point, not specific to your situation.

AFAIK, for certain offences you can be convicted in court on the word of a Garda.

The Garda will give evidence on oath. The defendant if he wishes can take the stand and give his evidence on oath.

Then the judge will decide.

YellowBoxStop

mcgarrett wrote: »

The Garda will give evidence on oath. The defendant if he wishes can take the stand and give his evidence on oath.

Then the judge will decide.

Yeah so, no point doing that then.

mcgarrett

YellowBoxStop wrote: »

Yeah so, no point doing that then.

That was just in reply to Iwannahurl, but if you end up in court it is an option to give your reasons for being stuck on the yellow box.


From your post it is more likely you will end up with a FCPS notice to pay a fine and receive penalty points, if you don't comply with that you end up in court.

If you are to have any chance of sorting this out favourably, you need to make contact with the garda before that notice is issued.

sogood

On a somewhat similar note, according to an article in todays Evening Herald, a Dublin Bus driver was hailed "a hero" despite rear ending a car on a junction. Fortunately common sense prevailed and the myth that if you rear end someone else, you are automatically 100% in the wrong. I would tend to drive onto a yellow junction if I believe it will be clear by the time I get onto it, as waiting for it to clear completely leaves you open to honking and hooting from impatient drivers behind, who dont even have a clear view of the junction etc. I have also found cars sneaking onto the junction, especially from the left side road, on uncontrolled junctions, thus constantly blocking it. I tend to stop in slow stop start driving at every junction, access road, garage forecourt etc. and am often rewarded with a wave or nod, especially from oncoming traffic trying to turn across me into their right. Anyway, you cant legislate for everything, especially gardai having a bad day. or the inability to say, "sorry, I didnt see the whole incident"

WildOscar

sogood wrote: »

, especially gardai having a bad day."

it is an abuse of power if that is the reason. op should get a solicitor. op is not psychic and if the exit was clear when he entered it is not hs fault. Otherwise no one could ever make any turn in case someone pulled in front of them

sogood

Yes, that was akin to the point I was making, thus the note of sarcasm in my post. It seemed as though the guard was wrong, but for whatever reason, he couldn't /wouldn't concede. Its a sad state of affairs and caused me to post a query some time back regarding your rights/obligations under law when stopped by the guards for example. But then, even if you were in the right and wish to contest something, your back to the old "my word against a guards word" scenario.

omb0wyn5ehpij9

E39MSport wrote: »

You broke the golden (not yellow) rule....

Don't fcuk with the Garda. Smile, be polite, plead your case and hope for the best.

100% agreed.

OP, the Gardai are human beings. You were short and rude with him as you showed in your conversation.
If you had been nice and treated him with a bit of respect, there would be a very good chance you would not have got a fine/points.

Piri

That is why you need an onboard camera
Go to the court (do not say anything to the Garda)
And sue them as well to rob your precious time

Iwannahurl

sogood wrote: »

.../... I have also found cars sneaking onto the junction, especially from the left side road, on uncontrolled junctions, thus constantly blocking it.

Yes. When is a yellow box junction not a true yellow box junction? When it's an Irish yellow box junction. The space you leave as a conscientious motorist is just an open invitation for someone else to barge in. Conscientious = loser on Irish roads, all too often.

Re in-car driving recording systems: these seem to be popular and useful.

See Boards threads passim, eg http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=2056084221

WildOscar

E39MSport wrote: »

You broke the golden (not yellow) rule....

Don't fcuk with the Garda. Smile, be polite, plead your case and hope for the best.

bull, why should he if cop is wrong

djimi

WildOscar wrote: »

bull, why should he if cop is wrong

Because they have the power to make your life awkward if you piss them off and they start throwing their weight around. Its easier in the long run just to smile and say nothing; a lot of the time with things like this the guards will only bother prosecuting if you act like a prick to them. Put it this way, if someone acts like a dick to you in your job are you more inclined or less inclined to help them? Gardai are no different, except they have the power to hand out fines/penalty points/convictions...

WildOscar

djimi wrote: »

Because they have the power to make your life awkward if you piss them off

not mine, there is such a thing as a malicious prosecution. no cop would make my life awkward and i would not act like a prick with them but i would not let them penalise me cos they are havi ng a bad day. If the way out of the box was clear when the op entered how can he be responsible for the actions of someone who changed lane

djimi

And how exactly would you go about stopping them from penalising you if they wanted to?

You may be right in a situation but the smart way to handle it if a garda is acting the bollox is to just be as polite as possible, smile and get out of there with as little hassle as possible. Get their details and follow up afterwards, with their superior if necessary. Trying to act the big man or acting like a smart prick at the time only serves to put you from being in the right to being in the wrong, and hurts any chance you might have of resolving things later.

WildOscar

djimi wrote: »

And how exactly would you go about stopping them from penalising you if they wanted to?

lets just say they know where they stand with me. let them attempt to penalise me and see what happens. and i mean within the law. i do not break the law or give cheek to cops but let them try to bully me and see what happens. they are scared of their sh1t of anyone who stands up to them

Get their details and follow up afterwards, with their superior if necessary

preaching to the converted

Anan1

WildOscar wrote: »

lets just say they know where they stand with me. let them attempt to penalise me and see what happens. and i mean within the law. i do not break the law or give cheek to cops but let them try to bully me and see what happens. they are scared of their sh1t of anyone who stands up to them

You reckon?:D

WildOscar

Anan1 wrote: »

You reckon?:D

i know

johnos1984

WildOscar wrote: »

i know

I have heard of this being used in one occasion legitimately however all others have involved a local politician appealing on your behalf... and a Super with a sympathetic pocket ear*

Appealing to people common sense once the heat of the situation has diffused is
a good idea but involving a third party (no pun intended) grinds my gears

*Just to clarify said Super was convicted of this

djimi

WildOscar wrote: »

lets just say they know where they stand with me. let them attempt to penalise me and see what happens. and i mean within the law. i do not break the law or give cheek to cops but let them try to bully me and see what happens. they are scared of their sh1t of anyone who stands up to them

Theyre really not to be fair :rolleyes: But you go ahead and think that way and see what happens if you try to act the big man to a garda when they try to penalise/arrest you

gondorff

Hey OP, can you give us a google streetview of where this happened.

WildOscar

djimi wrote: »

Theyre really not to be fair :rolleyes: But you go ahead and think that way and see what happens if you try to act the big man to a garda when they try to penalise/arrest you

never said anything about acting the big man and i know what happens when they are brought to book fore being bullies and know they do not make life difficult for me. you choose not to believe me.:D it has nothing to do with politicians either. anyway that is irrelevant, i still say the op cannot be responsible as he did not know the other guy would change lane. i am going out now and should i not drive into a yellow box with clear exit in case someone else might change lane. nonsense cop

omb0wyn5ehpij9

WildOscar wrote: »

never said anything about acting the big man and i know what happens when they are brought to book fore being bullies and know they do not make life difficult for me. you choose not to believe me.:D it has nothing to do with politicians either. anyway that is irrelevant, i still say the op cannot be responsible as he did not know the other guy would change lane. i am going out now and should i not drive into a yellow box with clear exit in case someone else might change lane. nonsense cop

You're missing the point though. If he hadn't been rude to the Guard, he would have probably got off. Yes it wasn't the OP fault that he got stuck in the yellow box, but the Guard more than likely will be sending him out fine/points due to his attitude.

WildOscar

Bryn wrote: »

You're missing the point though. If he hadn't been rude to the Guard, he would have probably got off. Yes it wasn't the OP fault that he got stuck in the yellow box, but the Guard more than likely will be sending him out fine/points due to his attitude.

i don't buy that. if he was rude to the guard then let him be prosecuted for that. otherwise it is a malicious prosecution

djimi

WildOscar wrote: »

i don't buy that. if he was rude to the guard then let him be prosecuted for that. otherwise it is a malicious prosecution

They wouldnt prosecute him unless he was being overly aggresive or really taking the piss. A smart ass attitude will be the difference between a garda being lenient and letting you off with something like this or them actually processing the offense and sending the fine and points. Its worth bearing that in mind.

But of course, every garda knows not to mess with you... :rolleyes:

Zubeneschamali

WildOscar wrote: »

if he was rude to the guard then let him be prosecuted for that. otherwise it is a malicious prosecution

No, it's a bit like the 4 penalty points for speeding if you go to court: you don't get punished for defending yourself in court, the legal penalty is 4 points. You just get a 2 point discount for paying up before it gets to court.

Similarly, you don't get charged with Giving Lip to a member of the Garda Siochana during his duties, you sometimes just see the guards applying some leniency if you "yes officer, no officer" them properly when caught.

Getting caught obstructing a junction is one thing (and you may get off), getting caught and then getting lippy with the guard means points.