Hymn/Carol on big screen at the Aviva last night

ironingbored

So, I was at the Leinster vs. Clermont game at the Aviva last night. About 15 minutes before KO something was said over the PA and suddenly the words of "Oh Come All Ye Faithful" was blasted over the speakers and everyone encouraged to sing along using the words on the big screens. It's one thing singing Rudolf and Jingle Bells but a hymn seemed OTT.

I thought this was highly inappropriate and potentially offensive.

We all know there is only one person by the name of BOD deserving of such adulation.

I was bitchslapped a little on the rugby thread for being offended by this with someone mentioning Xmas trees, presents, kids, etc.

I'd like to know your opinions. Perhaps a strongly worded letter to the Leinster Branch?

Galvasean

That's a bit much, broadcasting what is essentially a prayer before a rugby game. In fact if you ask me, it's borderline scandelous. What has Come All Ye Faithful got to do with rugby?

philologos

OP: It's Christmas. Honestly I don't see the harm, it's not as if they are forcing you to believe in the Gospel by encouraging people to sing a Christmas carol.

Phoenix Park

OP: You must be so bored,have you nothing better to do with your time?. Only in Ireland. Sigh.

MagicMarker

I would imagine it was put on because it sounds christmassy, not because it's religious. I doubt any thought was put into it really.

pH

Jakkass wrote: »

OP: It's Christmas. Honestly I don't see the harm, it's not as if they are forcing you to believe in the Gospel by encouraging people to sing a Christmas carol.

And if he'd have gone to a religious service then you'd have a point, however the idea of asking people to participate in religion at other events is not so clear cut.

Why should people be encouraged to praise Jesus at a rugby match? It's kind of like the secularism debate, no one (in Ireland) has any desire to stop Christians gathering in their churches and singing carols, and the vast majority don't mind them doing it in public spaces either - it's a free country and all that!

What many don't like is to be forced/asked/bullied to participate in religious observance, when it was never their intention to - if I choose freely to go to a carol service and then to stand out like a sore thumb by not singing then that's a problem of my own making, however if I'm doing something (non religious) as part of a crowd, and unexpectedly the crowd is led in a religious song then I could be left feeling very uncomfortable, I might not want to shout out "Sing all that hear in heaven God's holy word. Give to our Father glory in the Highest" at the top of my lungs - and I also might feel very uncomfortable standing there in a crowd, standing out in a crowd not singing, while those around me do.

For many (atheists) this isn't a problem, they might be happy singing along, or not bothered by any funny looks they get for not singing, however, can't you just accept that for some people this is not something they like, not something they thought they were getting into, and something they'd prefer to avoid.

PDN

Intolerable! Playing a Christmas Carol at Christmas! Is there no limit to the persecution and oppression you poor guys are subjected to?

GLaDOS

Meh, just a christmas carol, nothing to get too annoyed about

loldog

If I were an atheist I would be offended by this. It's just rude and ignorant. Probably the person who chose the song didn't think much about it. It's not appropriate to push a religion at a football match, there's loads of other Yuletide favourites they could have picked like O Tannenbaum or something.

.

philologos

pH - As far as I'm concerned the secularism debate has to do with Governance. Not to do with how private businesses wish to organise events.

Funnily enough this is very applicable to the argument that Christmas is still a Christian festival.

bnt

I sincerely doubt they put much thought in to the choice of carols, or whether anyone might be offended. It's Christmas, so they play Carols, whaddya' gonna do?

PDN

bnt wrote: »

I sincerely doubt they put much thought in to the choice of carols, or whether anyone might be offended. It's Christmas, so they play Carols, whaddya' gonna do?

Sing about reindeer apparently.

ironingbored

bnt wrote: »

It's Christmas, so they play Carols, whaddya' gonna do?

It's not a carol it's a hymn.

It was a rugby match. Whaddya gonna do?

Eh...watch rugby?

ironingbored

Phoenix Park wrote: »

OP: You must be so bored,have you nothing better to do with your time?. Only in Ireland. Sigh.

No, actually. I went to a rugby match and found myself being urged to give praise to an imaginary sky fairy.

I really hope next time they invite the muezzin.

mikom

ironingbored wrote: »

So, I was at the Leinster vs. Clermont game at the Aviva last night. About 15 minutes before KO something was said over the PA and suddenly the words of "Oh Come All Ye Faithful" was blasted over the speakers and everyone encouraged to sing along using the words on the big screens. It's one thing singing Rudolf and Jingle Bells but a hymn seemed OTT.

Oh, come, all ye faithful (Leinster fans), Joyful and triumphant (hopefully)!

Ye have little to be worrying about if knickers are twisted over this.

ironingbored

PDN wrote: »

Sing about reindeer apparently.

That would be the Almighty Reindeer pbuh.

ColmDawson

I doubt there was any thought put into it really. Was it the best choice of song? No, but I'd say A&A regulars give a lot more thought to these things than most people.

ironingbored

ironingbored wrote: »

No, actually. I went to a rugby match and found myself being urged to give praise to an imaginary sky fairy.

I really hope next time they invite the muezzin.

You do know that Jesus was a real person. Quite an amount of evidence to suggest that he existed. So it's not to an "imaginary sky fairy".
Anyway I presume the context the song was used in was that the Leinster fans were the faithful and wanted to be "joyful and triumphant" after the game.

MagicMarker

Deleted User wrote: »

You do know that Jesus was a real person. Quite an amount of evidence to suggest that he existed. So it's not to an "imaginary sky fairy".

pH

Jakkass wrote: »

pH - As far as I'm concerned the secularism debate has to do with Governance. Not to do with how private businesses wish to organise events.

Funnily enough this is very applicable to the argument that Christmas is still a Christian festival.

And before we go overboard here, no one is talking about beheading anyone, burning rugby flags (or people) in the streets, the OP said he found it inapropriate and suggested be might write a letter! :eek:

As you say it's a private business (kind of - I'm skeptical that businesses that represent by definition geographical regions such as football teams are as entirely private as say Tesco - but that's another thread) and as such the OP has every right to withdraw his custom, or indeed write them a letter telling them he feels it inappropriate.

The cynic in me feels his letter "as an atheist" will not come to much, however if he claimed to be a member of a minority religion and somehow involved children he'd probably get more of a hearing

"Jewish kids forced to praise Jesus in Aviva SHOCKER".
"We just wanted to watch rugby" says tearful Aaron.

twowheelsonly

ColmDawson wrote: »

I doubt there was any thought put into it really. Was it the best choice of song? No, but I'd say A&A regulars give a lot more thought to these things than most people.

Same as that.

The irony of this is that those in the crowd that are Christians/Catholics/Believers (90% + to varying degrees i'd imagine) wouldn't take a blind bit of notice of what was playing. The only ones that would are those such as the OP.

BTW, most of those songs are counted as carols and are really only considered hymns whilst in the context of a Church/service.

ironingbored

pH wrote: »

And before we go overboard here, no one is talking about beheading anyone, burning rugby flags (or people) in the streets, the OP said he found it inapropriate and suggested be might write a letter! :eek:

Actually the letter was tongue in cheek.

Really, it doesn't affect me in the slightest but...imagine the outrage if the Qatari authorities were to urge Christians to convert to Islam at the World Cup Final 2018.

I was merely highlighting yet another (minor) example of how a pervasive religious undercurrent still prevails in what should be a modern, secular repubblic.

philologos

ironingbored: Nobody has urged you to convert to Christianity. It's not comparable.

ironingbored wrote: »

It's not a carol it's a hymn.

According to Princeton Dictionary a carol is:
"[a] joyful religious song celebrating the birth of Christ"


If anything singing about reindeer wouldn't fit this definition!

Daftendirekt

I really don't see the issue here.

Surely a song about the birth of Christ is no worse than a song about a magic reindeer with a shiny nose being asked to pull Santa's sleigh?

It's just a Christmas story. In song form.

Truley

I think taking offense with a Christmas carol in this context is a bit OTT. Singing about Rudolf would be equally offensive to those who don't celebrate Christmas at all.

ColmDawson

Look, the issue here isn't the specific song that was sung at the Aviva. The issue is the way religion and in particular Christianity/Catholicism is part of the accepted, unthought-of fabric of Irish life.

The average punter is thinking "Ah, a nice Christmas song that I remember from when I was a kid".
He is not thinking "Sorry, what? 'Choirs of angels'? On what basis am I expected to accept that such celestial vocal groups exist?"

He's not thinking that, but I wish he were.

PDN

Truley wrote: »

I think taking offense with a Christmas carol in this context is a bit OTT. Singing about Rudolf would be equally offensive to those who don't celebrate Christmas at all.

Or offensive to all the Arudolfists who don't believe in flying reindeer?

ironingbored

Daftendirekt wrote: »

I really don't see the issue here.

That's half the problem.

Daftendirekt wrote: »

Surely a song about the birth of Christ is no worse than a song about a magic reindeer with a shiny nose being asked to pull Santa's sleigh? It's just a Christmas story. In song form.

At a rugby match...?

pH

Daftendirekt wrote: »

I really don't see the issue here.

Because the next stop is enforcement and respect.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uICSeDk44uI

Surely a song about the birth of Christ is no worse than a song about a magic reindeer with a shiny nose being asked to pull Santa's sleigh?

It's just a Christmas story. In song form.

O Come All Ye Faithful

O Come All Ye Faithful
Joyful and triumphant,
O come ye, O come ye to Bethlehem.
Come and behold Him,
Born the King of Angels;
O come, let us adore Him,
O come, let us adore Him,
O come, let us adore Him,
Christ the Lord.

O Sing, choirs of angels,
Sing in exultation,
Sing all that hear in heaven God's holy word.
Give to our Father glory in the Highest;
O come, let us adore Him,
O come, let us adore Him,
O come, let us adore Him,
Christ the Lord.

All Hail! Lord, we greet Thee,
Born this happy morning,
O Jesus! for evermore be Thy name adored.
Word of the Father, now in flesh appearing;
O come, let us adore Him,
O come, let us adore Him,
O come, let us adore Him,
Christ the Lord.

Rudolf the Red Nosed Reindeer.

Rudolph, the red-nosed reindeer
had a very shiny nose.
And if you ever saw him,
you would even say it glows.

All of the other reindeer
used to laugh and call him names.
They never let poor Rudolph
join in any reindeer games.

Then one foggy Christmas Eve
Santa came to say:
"Rudolph with your nose so bright,
won't you guide my sleigh tonight?"

Then all the reindeer loved him
as they shouted out with glee,
Rudolph the red-nosed reindeer,
you'll go down in history!

Totally the same!

Daftendirekt

ironingbored wrote: »

That's half the problem.



At a rugby match...?

You said in your OP, it'd be one thing to have Rudolph or Jingle Bells being belted out, so I'm working under the assumption that it's the religious content of the song you object to.

Dades

mikom wrote: »

Oh, come, all ye faithful (Leinster fans), Joyful and triumphant (hopefully)!

Ye have little to be worrying about if knickers are twisted over this.

Thats exactly what I thought!

I reckon someone did put thought into it but not for religious reasons.

ironingbored

Daftendirekt wrote: »

You said in your OP, it'd be one thing to have Rudolph or Jingle Bells being belted out, so I'm working under the assumption that it's the religious content of the song you object to.

No, I object to a religious song/hymn/carol being played at a rugby match open to the public and the crowd being encouraged/urged to sing along.

I've no objection to the song being played/sung in church or in another religious context.

philologos

ironingbored: What if some people are offended at Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer? Should we pander to that as well?

gothicus

ironingbored wrote: »

So, I was at the Leinster vs. Clermont game at the Aviva last night. About 15 minutes before KO something was said over the PA and suddenly the words of "Oh Come All Ye Faithful" was blasted over the speakers and everyone encouraged to sing along using the words on the big screens. It's one thing singing Rudolf and Jingle Bells but a hymn seemed OTT.

I thought this was highly inappropriate and potentially offensive.

We all know there is only one person by the name of BOD deserving of such adulation.

I was bitchslapped a little on the rugby thread for being offended by this with someone mentioning Xmas trees, presents, kids, etc.

I'd like to know your opinions. Perhaps a strongly worded letter to the Leinster Branch?

perhaps they should have played that Snoop Dogg song 'for all my niggaz and beeatches' instead?

ironingbored

Jakkass wrote: »

ironingbored: What if some people are offended at Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer? Should we pander to that as well?

Strawman and you know it.

00112984

I'm athiest and I wouldn't be in the least bit offended. It's a nice song. I don't believe in Santa either so I wouldn't mind being somewhere that any Santa-centric Christmas songs were played.

O Holy Night is one of my favourite songs. It has no religious significance for me, I just like it. I like lots of songs simply for the music, not the message.

philologos

It's not a strawman at all. Some people find Christmas an incredibly difficult time of year.

How about people who are offended at the idea of singing a national anthem (in respect to soccer) or Ireland's Call (in respect to rugby)?

Daftendirekt

pH wrote: »

Because the next stop is enforcement and respect.

But that's just a slippery slope fallacy. I'd perhaps be more sympathetic if this had occurred on state owned premises (which as far as I'm aware, the Aviva isn't) but I couldn't care less what music is played on privately owned property. Maybe that's just because I don't care for rugby, though. :pac:

O Come All Ye Faithful

O Come All Ye Faithful
Joyful and triumphant,
O come ye, O come ye to Bethlehem.
Come and behold Him,
Born the King of Angels;
O come, let us adore Him,
O come, let us adore Him,
O come, let us adore Him,
Christ the Lord.

O Sing, choirs of angels,
Sing in exultation,
Sing all that hear in heaven God's holy word.
Give to our Father glory in the Highest;
O come, let us adore Him,
O come, let us adore Him,
O come, let us adore Him,
Christ the Lord.

All Hail! Lord, we greet Thee,
Born this happy morning,
O Jesus! for evermore be Thy name adored.
Word of the Father, now in flesh appearing;
O come, let us adore Him,
O come, let us adore Him,
O come, let us adore Him,
Christ the Lord.

Rudolf the Red Nosed Reindeer.

Rudolph, the red-nosed reindeer
had a very shiny nose.
And if you ever saw him,
you would even say it glows.

All of the other reindeer
used to laugh and call him names.
They never let poor Rudolph
join in any reindeer games.

Then one foggy Christmas Eve
Santa came to say:
"Rudolph with your nose so bright,
won't you guide my sleigh tonight?"

Then all the reindeer loved him
as they shouted out with glee,
Rudolph the red-nosed reindeer,
you'll go down in history!

Totally the same!

Perhaps Rudolph isn't the best analogy. Unfortunately, songs urging people to worship Santa are thin on the ground. This one has a more "obnoxious" tone however:


You better watch out, You better not cry
You better not pout, I'm telling you why
Santa Claus is coming to town

He's making a list, Checking it twice;
Gonna find out who's naughty or nice.
Santa Claus is coming to town

He sees you when you're sleeping
He knows when you're awake
He knows if you've been bad or good
So be good for goodness sake

With little tin horns and little toy drums
Rooty toot toots and rummy tum tums
Santa Claus is coming to town

He sees you when you're sleeping
He knows when you're awake
He knows if you've been bad or good
So be good for goodness sake
Goodness sake

You better watch out
You better not cry
You better not pout
I'm telling you why
Santa Claus is coming to town

Dades

Jakkass wrote: »

Jakkass wrote: »

ironingbored: What if some people are offended at Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer? Should we pander to that as well?

It's not a strawman at all. Some people find Christmas an incredibly difficult time of year.

True, but not generally because one of their children was eaten by a flu-ridden reindeer.

ballsymchugh

would the OP get offended by groups out singing in shopping centres and busy shopping streets collecting for charity at this time of the year? do atheists shout at the singers demanding silence so that they can shop without the aural torment that they suffer?

strobe

Ahh for the love of.... It's just a Christmas song kids, suck it up.

krudler

This wouldnt bother me either and I'm not a fan of having religious iconography shoved down my throat, its christmas, the majority of people in the stadium were probably christians/catholics and they probably appreciated it, meh, non issue really. You hear carols and hymns being sung on the streets of every city in the country right now, I may not agree with the belief behind the song but I'm not about to go screaming at singers to stop.

strobe

ballsymchugh wrote: »

would the OP get offended by groups out singing in shopping centres and busy shopping streets collecting for charity at this time of the year? do atheists shout at the singers demanding silence so that they can shop without the aural torment that they suffer?

Actually that is really really annoying. Chuggers are bad enough, but tuneless faux jolly chuggers? Someone pass a fukking shotgun.

ironingbored

Jakkass wrote: »

How about people who are offended at the idea of singing a national anthem (in respect to soccer) or Ireland's Call (in respect to rugby)?

Well, for one you know that the anthem will be played at every international match. If it irks you can make the decision not to go/participate.

My point is there was no choice last night.

Ireland's Call does offend but for other reasons.

philologos

ironingbored wrote: »

Well, for one you know that the anthem will be played at every international match. If it irks you can make the decision not to go/participate.

This realisation is interesting. Why should your concerns be given more credence than the concerns of others?

ironingbored

ballsymchugh wrote: »

would the OP get offended by groups out singing in shopping centres and busy shopping streets collecting for charity at this time of the year? do atheists shout at the singers demanding silence so that they can shop without the aural torment that they suffer?

Again nothing to do with the point I'm trying to make.

I can choose not to donate. I can choose to walk away, cross the street, etc.

Last night, I paid to go to see a rugby match. I didn't pay to hear religious hymnal music and especially encouraged to sing along by the PA.

Daftendirekt

ironingbored wrote: »

No, I object to a religious song/hymn/carol being played at a rugby match open to the public and the crowd being encouraged/urged to sing along.

I've no objection to the song being played/sung in church or in another religious context.

Which is exactly what I was getting at. Is it the fact the you don't think Christmas carols have any place at a rugby match? Would you equally object to a secular Christmas song being played?

If so, my point is pretty much redundant. If not, I'll repeat that IMO, a privately owned institution is entitled to play whatever music it wishes on its own premises. If you object to this then of course, you, as a paying customer, are entitled to make your objection known, but ultimately it's up to said institution to decide whether it values your business enough to take your complaint into consideration.

pH

Daftendirekt wrote: »

But that's just a slippery slope fallacy. I'd perhaps be more sympathetic if this had occurred on state owned premises (which as far as I'm aware, the Aviva isn't) but I couldn't care less what music is played on privately owned property. Maybe that's just because I don't care for rugby, though. :pac:

Well isn't it all just a slippery slope of some sort, we all would probably draw the line somewhere, and remember in this case it's not the line were we start calling for people to be executed, exiled, imprisoned or beaten it's merely the line where you say to yourself, "I don't think that's on, let me post on an internet forum and see what others think"

So where would that line be for you?

What about hymns before any rugby match, what about prayers, what about signing a declaration about your love for Jesus before you're allowed into the stadium - I'm sure we all could envisage some line that we might think "hmrph - I have something to say about that" - and for all of us that line is somewhere different.

I know there are many out there (A&A mods included) of the mind "get over it - where I draw the line is exactly the right place and anyone who differs from me has little to be worrying about getting their knickers twisted over this" maybe they could take a little bit of their own medicine and "get over it"?

Fanny Cradock

This thread is very much like the Christmas Stamp Controversy of a couple of years back. Trying times indeed for non-believers.

mikom

Happy Christmas.

MrPudding

Jakkass wrote: »

ironingbored: What if some people are offended at Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer? Should we pander to that as well?

I don't see the problem with Rudolph the red nosed reindeer. How could anyone possibly be offended by it?

MrP