cheating

mag

interesting piece from john huggan in todays scotman on cheating in golf.

http://sport.scotsman.com/golf/John-Huggan-The-elephant-in.6665491.jp?articlepage=1

"You may not want to hear this, but golf at every level is rife with cheating.

One multiple major champion, by way of example, is a notorious cheat and the subject of any number of head-shaking locker room tales. Ryder Cup players are not immune either. At least one is tainted forever by his serial cheating. And there are others, many of whom have won events through the most dubious of methods.

Every year it goes on and on, right up to the present day. During this past season on the European Tour there was at least one instance where a pro, outraged by the behaviour of his playing companion, refused to sign that fellow competitor's card. Not that anything came of it. In such instances, tour officials invariably take it upon themselves to attest the disputed numbers."

PAULWATSON

well, the multiple major winner is Veej, the foreign player with the "hot" balls is Jumbo Ozaki. The LPGA players are of Koreian origin.

Glencarraig

Every player, in every club who goes out with the intention of "getting .1 back" is also a cheat. "Managing" a handicap is the biggest virus in the game of golf today. It never ceases to amaze me how many players seem to struggle to bring in a score in counting singles competitions but feature on a regular basis in team, scramble and 4ball comps. I have also noticed the improvement in these players scores when the comp is non counting and there is a winter league or hamper prize on offer. The whole .1 thing needs to be scrapped and players should be reviewed on a quarterly or half yearly basis. I know that this would put severe pressure on competition secretaries and handicap committies, but there has to be a better way. If you win, you get cut, if you feature in the "placings" on a regular basis in any format of competition you come up for review. I wonder would our beloved golfing union ever have the balls to suggest such a change or will we continue to protect the many cheats that are a blight on the game of golf.

heavyballs

Glencarraig wrote: »

Every player, in every club who goes out with the intention of "getting .1 back" is also a cheat. "Managing" a handicap is the biggest virus in the game of golf today..

it's up to each commitee to stress to their hcp sec to use the tools that are there for them,a player as you know can be cut on general play/observation.
If each club had the balls to enforce this the problem would be pretty much sorted,too many mates of mates in the commitee's or more importantly on the different teams.
They have to ask themselves what's more important,winning inter club comps or having some integrity?

blackwaterfish

heavyballs wrote: »

too many mates of mates

exactly. golfs own version of protectionism.

inner club politics, the golden circle, it exists in so many clubs and its a pain in the hole.

rafared

Glencarraig wrote: »

Every player, in every club who goes out with the intention of "getting .1 back" is also a cheat. "Managing" a handicap is the biggest virus in the game of golf today. It never ceases to amaze me how many players seem to struggle to bring in a score in counting singles competitions but feature on a regular basis in team, scramble and 4ball comps. I have also noticed the improvement in these players scores when the comp is non counting and there is a winter league or hamper prize on offer. The whole .1 thing needs to be scrapped and players should be reviewed on a quarterly or half yearly basis. I know that this would put severe pressure on competition secretaries and handicap committies, but there has to be a better way. If you win, you get cut, if you feature in the "placings" on a regular basis in any format of competition you come up for review. I wonder would our beloved golfing union ever have the balls to suggest such a change or will we continue to protect the many cheats that are a blight on the game of golf.

Couldnt agree more with you on this. Ive had first had experience of this over the last two years and have come to the conclusion that the whole H'cap system is corrupt. The ".1ers" have almost turned me off competitive golf for good. I could give you several examples of this practice in action but I dont want to get into specifics on a public forum.

blackwaterfish

PAULWATSON wrote: »

well, the multiple major winner is Veej.

well its either vj, padraig, els, goosen, daly, cabrera or woods... or mickelson.

altho vj's rep is out there in the public domain.

then theres the kenny perry incident:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKsioAyR9Fs

did he improve his lie?

L.O.F.T

If memory serves me correctly this is not the first time. On my original post I recall a different video from the fairway? Can find it anywhere? Same bad lie, addressed a couple of times to gauge the lie and viola a perfect look at the back of the ball.

Have a look here too
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055568717

Russman

Glencarraig wrote: »

If you win, you get cut, if you feature in the "placings" on a regular basis in any format of competition you come up for review.

I agree with you in general terms, but definitely don't agree with the if you win you get cut bit. What if somebody wins with, say, only 30pts on a given day ? They shouldn't be cut IMO. Winning isn't a crime, lets not forget that. And usually if you win in a singles you're cut anyway.

There needs to be a definite system or methodology introduced and abandon the subjective element that comes into whether someone should be cut. The line in rule 19 about opinion is totally wrong IMO, I mean who is to say that any handicap secretary is qualified or able to pass judgement on another member ? Just as some players deliberately get 0.1s back, so too many cuts happen because of "bar talk". I've seen cases go as far as the legal people, when personalities came into cutting.

I wouldn't deny for a second that there are players massaging handicaps, but golf clubs can't buy into the lynch mob mentality which I've seen happen when someone says something about player x having a bad finish or hitting out of bounds etc etc. Slightly tongue in cheek but, if a pro blows a tournament with a bad back nine, nobody suggests he's pulling, and these are the best players, yet when some 15 handicapper hits it out of town someone will say they are...I mean, come on.

I've said it before on these threads but I really think the number of genuine handicap cheats/bandits in any club is fairly small (emphasis on genuine), plenty build handicaps alright, but how many actually win anything of note ? Very few I'd suggest, most amateurs haven't a clue how they're going to play on any given day. I don't doubt they exist, I just think the problem is overstated, with the result that almost anyone who wins is labelled. Certainly in my own club I could name a few but probably less than 10.

Russman

L.O.F.T wrote: »

If memory serves me correctly this is not the first time.

I think you're right, I've definitely seen a longer/different version of this incident, disgraceful that the tour exonerated him.

L.O.F.T

Russman wrote: »

I think you're right, I've definitely seen a longer/different version of this incident, disgraceful that the tour exonerated him.

It was a different incident involving Perry and David Feherty was also commenting on course with Faldo in the booth and both had to pause it was that blatant. I've searched high and low and cant find it.

Russman

I think this is the longer version I saw..........maybe I'm thinking of the same incident

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdaubF1tmbE

randomer

Russman wrote: »

I agree with you in general terms, but definitely don't agree with the if you win you get cut bit. What if somebody wins with, say, only 30pts on a given day ? They shouldn't be cut IMO. Winning isn't a crime, lets not forget that. And usually if you win in a singles you're cut anyway.

It doesn't really matter how many points you scored. If you win, it means that you played better relative to the other competitors, so being cut makes sense.

My primary goal in golf is to score as low as possible and get my handicap down as low as I can. Winning tournaments is something that doesn't even register on my radar. Obviously if I do win I will be happy, but I would be much happier to get to single figures and better.

ShriekingSheet

Russman wrote: »

I agree with you in general terms, but definitely don't agree with the if you win you get cut bit. What if somebody wins with, say, only 30pts on a given day ? They shouldn't be cut IMO. Winning isn't a crime, lets not forget that. And usually if you win in a singles you're cut anyway.

There needs to be a definite system or methodology introduced and abandon the subjective element that comes into whether someone should be cut. The line in rule 19 about opinion is totally wrong IMO, I mean who is to say that any handicap secretary is qualified or able to pass judgement on another member ? Just as some players deliberately get 0.1s back, so too many cuts happen because of "bar talk". I've seen cases go as far as the legal people, when personalities came into cutting.

I wouldn't deny for a second that there are players massaging handicaps, but golf clubs can't buy into the lynch mob mentality which I've seen happen when someone says something about player x having a bad finish or hitting out of bounds etc etc. Slightly tongue in cheek but, if a pro blows a tournament with a bad back nine, nobody suggests he's pulling, and these are the best players, yet when some 15 handicapper hits it out of town someone will say they are...I mean, come on.

I've said it before on these threads but I really think the number of genuine handicap cheats/bandits in any club is fairly small (emphasis on genuine), plenty build handicaps alright, but how many actually win anything of note ? Very few I'd suggest, most amateurs haven't a clue how they're going to play on any given day. I don't doubt they exist, I just think the problem is overstated, with the result that almost anyone who wins is labelled. Certainly in my own club I could name a few but probably less than 10.

Disagree.

What you've said there is a perfect example of the root of this whole problem. You "really think the number of genuine handicap cheats/bandits in any club is fairly small", but then say "plenty build handicaps alright".

This whole notion of people building handicaps not equating to genuine cheating - the implication that it's a forgivable offence, a white lie or the done thing to not necessarily always try and make your best score in order to manipulate your handicap is total, total bol**x.

It's a sly, unsporting way to cheat your fellow members out of what invariably ends up being a flippin' lamp, or lump of glass. If guys who do this think they're in a different category to the someone kicking a ball from under a tree, or dropping a ball out of their pocket, they're absolutely fooling themselves. Muppets.

ridonkulous

What about at the lower end i.e. Junior Cup/Senior Cup restrictions. A 5 handicapper on a score that will get him cut to 4 and make him ineligible for Junior Cup and can only be picked for Senior Cup. Now in some clubs a 4 handicap may get picked for the Senior Cup panel but in most they won't so this leaves the player in a limbo type situation if they get down to 4 before year end. If he pulls up and keeps his handicap at 5 and plays Junior Cup, if he gets cut he doesn't play Junior or Senior Cup. Imagine if this all happens in the last counting competition of the year. What are peoples views on this?

And on the flip side what are peoples view on someone in this situation not playing a number of competitions at the end of the season to ensure that they are not in this position?

All just hypothetical, just interested in what peoples view may be with regard to it being cheating.

AGC

Pointless article, if he knows for sure it goes on(which it does im sure) well then name and shame.

Anyone can write a piece saying it goes on

ridonkulous

AGC wrote: »

Pointless article, if he knows for sure it goes on(which it does im sure) well then name and shame.

Anyone can write a piece saying it goes on

What exactly would that achieve? I think its well known who he is on about for the most part and certainly the people on tour know who is who. I don't think naming and shaming these people is the right thing to do. The other players know who they are and the marketers know who they are so ....

Russman

I think he's afraid of the legal implications of calling a top tour player a cheat without any "proof". Like it says, its often one player's word against another. Even with video evidence as above, the tour cleared Kenny Perry, so if the writer was to call him a cheat he'd be on very dodgy ground I reckon.
On the European tour there was the Monty incident with that drop in the bunker where, again, he was sort of cleared and then donated his prize money to charity and it all went away.

Russman

ridonkulous wrote: »

What about at the lower end i.e. Junior Cup/Senior Cup restrictions. A 5 handicapper on a score that will get him cut to 4 and make him ineligible for Junior Cup and can only be picked for Senior Cup. Now in some clubs a 4 handicap may get picked for the Senior Cup panel but in most they won't so this leaves the player in a limbo type situation if they get down to 4 before year end. If he pulls up and keeps his handicap at 5 and plays Junior Cup, if he gets cut he doesn't play Junior or Senior Cup. Imagine if this all happens in the last counting competition of the year. What are peoples views on this?

And on the flip side what are peoples view on someone in this situation not playing a number of competitions at the end of the season to ensure that they are not in this position?

All just hypothetical, just interested in what peoples view may be with regard to it being cheating.

This situation does arise, but the thing is, rightly or wrongly, at that handicap level its only a shot or two difference between a good score and a 0.1, so its very very hard to claim a 4 or 5 handicapper is pulling. Usually they're not pulling, they just might not be caring how they play on a given day (there is a difference), most 4 handicappers on a good score will try to keep it going and see how low they can shoot. I know when I was 4 my only thought was to get to 3, and when I was 3 I didn't give a toss about getting back out to play in x event. I have seen fellas who look at the next junior scratch and what the cut off is to play in it, ie 4 or 5 and maybe play in a singles they wouldn't normally play in to get the 0.1.
The other thing at that handicap level is that most players, if they return their cards, will get 0.1 more often than not anyway, whether they like it or not. Very few 4 handicappers play to it consistently, their handicap graph will likely be lots of 0.1s and three or four cuts of maybe 0.3 or 0.4 at a time keeping them at 4.

Russman

randomer wrote: »

It doesn't really matter how many points you scored. If you win, it means that you played better relative to the other competitors, so being cut makes sense.

My primary goal in golf is to score as low as possible and get my handicap down as low as I can. Winning tournaments is something that doesn't even register on my radar. Obviously if I do win I will be happy, but I would be much happier to get to single figures and better.

With respect, I disagree. Of course it matters how many points are scored, your handicap is your handicap against the course, not against the competition. Just because you play less bad than everyone else doesn't mean you should be cut. I appreciate the CSS is derived from the scores etc but handicap doesn't have any overall relationship to the competitors.

What if only 30 people played and someone won with 30pts but on the next day 120 people played and the same person had 34pts and came 50th ? Cutting them for the win doesn't make sense (in a singles competition anyway), thats why there is a CSS - cuts in singles have no relationship to your position in the competition.

Of course winning 4 balls and team events is a different matter and I totally agree with cuts then.

ridonkulous

Russman wrote: »

This situation does arise, but the thing is, rightly or wrongly, at that handicap level its only a shot or two difference between a good score and a 0.1, so its very very hard to claim a 4 or 5 handicapper is pulling. Usually they're not pulling, they just might not be caring how they play on a given day (there is a difference), most 4 handicappers on a good score will try to keep it going and see how low they can shoot. I know when I was 4 my only thought was to get to 3, and when I was 3 I didn't give a toss about getting back out to play in x event. I have seen fellas who look at the next junior scratch and what the cut off is to play in it, ie 4 or 5 and maybe play in a singles they wouldn't normally play in to get the 0.1.
The other thing at that handicap level is that most players, if they return their cards, will get 0.1 more often than not anyway, whether they like it or not. Very few 4 handicappers play to it consistently, their handicap graph will likely be lots of 0.1s and three or four cuts of maybe 0.3 or 0.4 at a time keeping them at 4.

I agree with what you have said but I don't thin it addresses the point I was trying to make. Getting experience playing Junior Cup is a major plus for up and coming young golfers. If the situation arises where they make great strides and go from 12 to 4 in the space of 12 months they may miss the Junior Cup selection sue to be 12 at the start of the year and weren't considered and the can't play Junior Cup the following year due to having been 4 and will more than likely not be selected for the Senior Cup panel. So what I was saying was say for example in a round where they had a chance to go from a 5 handicap to a 4 but instead intentionally towards the end of the round threw a few shots back to the course would/should this person be considered a cheater?

The Nark

+1 with all those who agree with the o/p.

The game is rife with people who are building their handicaps and the system is fatally flawed.

However, I must disagree with the poster who said that these .1 cheats are only winning lumps of glass. The problem is bigger than that.

More importantly, they are putting their names on club championship cups & shields, stealing club fourball & foursomes matchplays and occasionally, if they really set their minds to it, stealing our club singles matchplays, although, strangely, this particular type of individual rarely has the bottle to pull off anything in singles competitions.

As for the governing body, the G.U.I. - words like spineless spring to mind. They are more concerned about the length of tees that golfers use!

AGC

ridonkulous wrote: »

What exactly would that achieve? I think its well known who he is on about for the most part and certainly the people on tour know who is who. I don't think naming and shaming these people is the right thing to do. The other players know who they are and the marketers know who they are so ....

Of course its the right thing to do. If your caught cheating you should be gone.

From the amatuer game here where lads can't get into Championships but yet lads in them can't break 80 to cheats winning majors.

Why protect them?

Russman

ridonkulous wrote: »

I agree with what you have said but I don't thin it addresses the point I was trying to make. Getting experience playing Junior Cup is a major plus for up and coming young golfers. If the situation arises where they make great strides and go from 12 to 4 in the space of 12 months they may miss the Junior Cup selection sue to be 12 at the start of the year and weren't considered and the can't play Junior Cup the following year due to having been 4 and will more than likely not be selected for the Senior Cup panel. So what I was saying was say for example in a round where they had a chance to go from a 5 handicap to a 4 but instead intentionally towards the end of the round threw a few shots back to the course would/should this person be considered a cheater?

Ahh right, I see what you mean. I guess anyone who "intentionally" throws away a few shots would fall into that category alright, but I do think its a very grey area all over. I think in reality if that situation arose, what would happen is that the 5 handicapper won't put himself into the situation to have to intentionally throw away a shot or two on the last few holes. Plus junior golfers mostly have only one thought and its to make birdies and be damned with the consequences.

I think the more likely scenario is with older guys trying to make teams like, say, Pierce Purcell, or Metropolitan. Its a whole other thread/discussion but there are, anecdotally, a number of clubs who "build" teams for next year towards the end of a season. We'd be foolish to think that doesn't happen, with the result that clubs who strictly apply Rule 19 and do plenty of cutting end up totally uncompetitive in inter-club events. Its happened in my own club, we have a heap of players around the 8 or 9 handicap who wouldn't have a prayer of being competitive in the events for that range as they've been cut too harshly for a few wins in internal club comps during the year.

Russman

AGC wrote: »

from the amatuer game here where lads can't get into Championships but yet lads in them can't break 80 Why protect them?

A big +1 to that ! Which is the other end of the scale, guys not wanting 0.1s and not returning cards. Too right half the field can't break 80 yet year after year they keep their handicaps at scratch and get in to the big events. Mind boggling, when plenty of decent 2, 3 or even 4 handicappers would beat them easily. And the spineless GUI do nothing about it, they're more concerned with trying to find ways to cut people.

Even when these players are caught fiddling cards/handicaps some of them have been simply told to "keep a low profile for a few weeks".

It would make you think there's some cachet for the GUI in saying "we have x number of scratch players in Ireland" or something !

ridonkulous

AGC wrote: »

Of course its the right thing to do. If your caught cheating you should be gone.

From the amatuer game here where lads can't get into Championships but yet lads in them can't break 80 to cheats winning majors.

Why protect them?

Because as the reporter said it is one mans word against anothers....

Certain things are very hard to pick up with a TV camera. The fact that its a 2D representation of a 3D scenario makes it difficult enough for a start. Although that said the Kenny Perry incident is pretty ridiculous and I don't know what he was thinking, if he was thinking that is.

But instances of guys marking their ball on the side rather than from behind. Those situations are one guys word against anothers. Tom Lehman had to move his ball marker on the 18th green in the British Open the allow his partner to finish out. He forgot to replace it in the exact spot and instead played the ball from the new position, held the putt and won the championship. The rules officials picked up on it later and deemed that he had gained no advantage and so didn't penalise him, which imo was the right decision. If that had been in the middle of the pack and his playing partner and himself weren't exactly on friendly terms and started telling everyone about that instance with Lehman would you consider that fair even though it was an honest mistake?

AGC

ridonkulous wrote: »

Because as the reporter said it is one mans word against anothers....

Certain things are very hard to pick up with a TV camera. The fact that its a 2D representation of a 3D scenario makes it difficult enough for a start. Although that said the Kenny Perry incident is pretty ridiculous and I don't know what he was thinking, if he was thinking that is.

But instances of guys marking their ball on the side rather than from behind. Those situations are one guys word against anothers. Tom Lehman had to move his ball marker on the 18th green in the British Open the allow his partner to finish out. He forgot to replace it in the exact spot and instead played the ball from the new position, held the putt and won the championship. The rules officials picked up on it later and deemed that he had gained no advantage and so didn't penalise him, which imo was the right decision. If that had been in the middle of the pack and his playing partner and himself weren't exactly on friendly terms and started telling everyone about that instance with Lehman would you consider that fair even though it was an honest mistake?

Everyone can make an honest mistake just like Dustin Johnson.

My problem is if this reporter is saying he knows for sure then surely he has seen it?

I have played in championships and scratch cups and pulled lads up for some stuff which was dealt with. Hopefully the embarrassment of being caught will be enough not to do it again but if, as the article says, they are repeat offenders they should be named and thrown off tour/out of clubs.

Russman

Absolutely, honest mistakes can happen to anyone, sometimes you don't even know something has happened until someone else points it out.

I even have a tiny doubt about the Dustin Johnson incident, if you look at the clip on youtube when he grounds the club first he kinda stops and looks for a second, almost as if he's realised there might be an issue - then again, maybe I'm being a bit cynical

I still think it'd be very hard for a reporter to win a case that might be brought if he accused someone of being a cheat. He'd be on very thin ice IMO, especially if the tour, like with Perry, cleared the player.

I suppose like in probably a lot of clubs, members could tell you about someone they regard as dodgy without any real "proof". A few years ago we had a case where someone was being watched by spotters sent out to keep an eye on him. When he was accused of putting the wrong scores on the card he simply replied along the lines of "ohh gosh you're right, it was a 5 not a 4 on that hole, my mistake" - very difficult to prove intent and use the "cheat" word, even if thats what it clearly was (on a number of holes !!).

scout353

Elliot Saltman's case for alleged cheating at the Russian Challenge Cup back in September was postponed this week due to the bad weather!!!!

WHIP IT!

scout353 wrote: »

Elliot Saltman's case for alleged cheating at the Russian Challenge Cup back in September was postponed this week due to the bad weather!!!!

What're the details of this case? First I heard of it.

scout353

WHIP IT! wrote: »

What're the details of this case? First I heard of it.

He was allegedly marking his ball one way and replacing it another. AFAIK his playing partners said he was marking his ball to the side and replacing it at six o clock thereby gaining an advantage!!!

L.O.F.T

WHIP IT! wrote: »

What're the details of this case? First I heard of it.

scout353 wrote: »

He was allegedly marking his ball one way and replacing it another. AFAIK his playing partners said he was marking his ball to the side and replacing it at six o clock thereby gaining an advantage!!!

Link for WHIP IT:

http://www.independent.ie/sport/golf/notour-spot-for-kearney-as-cheat-slurs-rattle-saltman-2456990.html

mag

scout353 wrote: »

He was allegedly marking his ball one way and replacing it another. AFAIK his playing partners said he was marking his ball to the side and replacing it at six o clock thereby gaining an advantage!!!

not to mention the fact that he was marking with a digestive...allegedly

stockdam

I knew a good player who would always mark the ball at the front and then replace his ball in front of his coin thus gaining a coin's width each time. When I pulled him up on it he became abusive and that's the last I played with him. He also used to shove the ball forwards a bit as he marked it.......cheat.

WHIP IT!

stockdam wrote: »

I knew a good player who would always mark the ball at the front and then replace his ball in front of his coin thus gaining a coin's width each time. When I pulled him up on it he became abusive and that's the last I played with him. He also used to shove the ball forwards a bit as he marked it.......cheat.

This makes me laugh... It's the most pointless example of cheating there is - you got a 20-foot putt and you steal one inch?? Crazy...

stockdam

WHIP IT! wrote: »

you got a 20-foot putt and you steal one ince??

Was it an 'ince pie?

WHIP IT!

stockdam wrote: »

Was it an 'ince pie?

Pffft, dunno what you're talking about... (he said, with all the smugness of a man who'd just utilised the edit option... )

PhilipMarlowe

Never mind the cheating, what about the consequences for the pace of play? Marking a ball at 8 o'clock and replacing it at 6 o'clock.... madness.
I'm only here to avoid studying, I'll get my coat...

Fairway Jim

In my opinion the route of all evil in cheating is that the prizes are too valuable. Bandits are building up 0.1's to increase handicaps, in order to pounce for big prizes. Reduce prizes to a simple Medal with a dozen Pro V's for first prize and play for the honour, that would cut out cheating.

Alternatively remove all handicaps and play on your own ability (everyone off scratch), that would sort out all the men from the boys.

Jimdagym

Fairway Jim wrote: »

In my opinion the route of all evil in cheating is that the prizes are too valuable. Bandits are building up 0.1's to increase handicaps, in order to pounce for big prizes. Reduce prizes to a simple Medal with a dozen Pro V's for first prize and play for the honour, that would cut out cheating.

Alternatively remove all handicaps and play on your own ability (everyone off scratch), that would sort out all the men from the boys.

Great idea. Thats exactly what a struggling industry needs at the minute. More elitism.

Fairway Jim

I'm referring to golf cheating i.e. Bandits, I take your point on Struggling Industry.

Elitism No - Fair Play Yes

The Nark

Fairway Jim wrote: »

In my opinion the route of all evil in cheating is that the prizes are too valuable. Bandits are building up 0.1's to increase handicaps, in order to pounce for big prizes. Reduce prizes to a simple Medal with a dozen Pro V's for first prize and play for the honour, that would cut out cheating.

+1

johntommy

Fairway Jim wrote: »

In my opinion the route of all evil in cheating is that the prizes are too valuable. Bandits are building up 0.1's to increase handicaps, in order to pounce for big prizes. Reduce prizes to a simple Medal with a dozen Pro V's for first prize and play for the honour, that would cut out cheating.

Alternatively remove all handicaps and play on your own ability (everyone off scratch), that would sort out all the men from the boys.

In my club there is a past captain who features in every second fourball,scramble, 4 person team event in the club.. Last year he must have been in the prizes about 7-8 times on our course alone, never mind other courses.
Our handicap committee cut him for winning a singles comp and then give him a shot back at end of year. Unbelievable. His wife, son and daughter also win regularly too.

rafared

johntommy wrote: »

In my club there is a past captain who features in every second fourball,scramble, 4 person team event in the club.. Last year he must have been in the prizes about 7-8 times on our course alone, never mind other courses.
Our handicap committee cut him for winning a singles comp and then give him a shot back at end of year. Unbelievable. His wife, son and daughter also win regularly too.

Ive had first hand experience of similar carry on and to be honest it has contributed to the reputation of the club going downhill and was, IMO, a factor in the large number of members who left the club last year.

Woodgate

johntommy wrote: »

In my club there is a past captain who features in every second fourball,scramble, 4 person team event in the club.. Last year he must have been in the prizes about 7-8 times on our course alone, never mind other courses.
Our handicap committee cut him for winning a singles comp and then give him a shot back at end of year. Unbelievable. His wife, son and daughter also win regularly too.

It's outrageous when there is an annual review in all clubs now, that guy's record should have shown a decent cut was required, how he received shots back is a mystery.

Sligored

scout353 wrote: »

Elliot Saltman's case for alleged cheating at the Russian Challenge Cup back in September was postponed this week due to the bad weather!!!!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2011/jan/18/elliot-saltman-three-year-golf-ban

Elliot Saltman, the professional who was accused of "cheating" in a minor European Tour event in Russia last year, has been banned from golf for three months, the Guardian has learned.

An official announcement will be made by the chief executive of the European Tour, George O'Grady, here tomorrow but the 28-year-old Scot was told of the decision , after appearing before a committee of eight officials and players including Thomas Bjorn, the chairman of the Tour's tournament committee. Saltman is the first professional to be expelled from Europe's premier events since Johan Tumba was banned for 10 years in 1992, after changing his scorecard at tour school.

Saltman has been given 28 days to appeal against the decision. His representatives are believed to have spent most of today meeting with lawyers and further meetings are planned for tomorrow with a view to challenging the decision.

The worst-case scenario for the European Tour, which it will do everything it can to avoid, would be a prolonged court battle focusing on the issue of cheating in golf and on other cases in which rules were allegedly broken. One such case was the infamous "Jakartagate" affair, in which Colin Montgomerie was accused of incorrectly replacing his ball after a rain delay at the 2005 Indonesian Open. The former Ryder Cup captain was censured by the same tournament players' committee that delivered today's verdict.

Saltman was accused of incorrectly marking his ball on the putting green on at least five occasions in the first round of last September's M2M Russian Challenge Cup in Moscow. After the round his two playing partners, Stuart Davies and Marcus Higley, raised concerns first with Saltman and then with the tournament referee, Gary Butler, indicating that they would not sign the Scotsman's scorecard because they believed he had broken the rules. All four held a private meeting, after which Saltman was disqualified.

In an interview with journalists in Spain last month Saltman indicated that in the immediate aftermath of the events in Russia he had agreed he had broken the rules. He then retracted this.

"I accepted what was said at the time because I was in shock at the time and I didn't want to be labelled a cheat. I am sorry now that I didn't stand up for myself," he said.

Davies and Higley were flown at the tour's expense to Abu Dhabi to give evidence – a measure of how seriously the European Tour is taking the issue, amid increasing worldwide interest.

Cheating is and always has been the most serious offence a golfer can be accused of committing. Any suggestion of its existence at the highest level also undermines golf's unique selling point of being the most honourable of sports.

For Saltman the consequences of being banned are huge, as he acknowledged before the hearing. "It affects not only me but my family," he said. "I don't want to be labelled as a cheat. Nobody wants that reputation. The sooner this gets sorted out the better."

Saltman is the third golfer to be banned by the European Tour since 1985. David Robertson was banned for 20 years after cheating in a qualifying event for the1985 Open.

bigtimecharlie

3 months may not be bad but it's this time of the year where he would have had a chance to get some touranment play under his belt before the big guns get out to play.

He will find it difficult to re-establish himself. I presume he can still practise but that woun't be of much help compared to the pressure of touranment play.

Trampas

What exactly did he do.

At most he was gaining an inch or 2. What a fool.

More benefit would have been cheating in the rough by teeing the ball up on a piece of grass or trampling the grass behind the ball. Deserves it for been an idiot

Russman

Trampas wrote: »

Deserves it for been an idiot

Exactly !

f22

Apparently he had a chequered history as an amateur, and it's far from the first time his integrity has been questioned. I followed this on the Scotsman newspaper forum and quite a few people who knew/played with him as an amateur weren't surprised by his guilt. For such a good amateur he was ignored by the Scottish Golfing Union for international duty, the reasons given were precisely why he got banned for 3 months this week.

ShriekingSheet

f22 wrote: »

Apparently he had a chequered history as an amateur, and it's far from the first time his integrity has been questioned. I followed this on the Scotsman newspaper forum and quite a few people who knew/played with him as an amateur weren't surprised by his guilt. For such a good amateur he was ignored by the Scottish Golfing Union for international duty, the reasons given were precisely why he got banned for 3 months this week.

Isn't it funny how it's virtually unheard of for someone to be caught cheating, and not to have people who know them say "ah sure he's always been a bit iffy".

It's never someone who you'd say "feck, I always thought he was an honest chap".