Coillte "fire sale" & Bertie Ahern

Sleepy

lmimmfn wrote: »

last i heard the state owns everything in the ground and found in the ground, minerals and whatever else. You need a license to excavate so if anyone buys Coillte they will never own the mineral rights unless thats specifically in the deal.

And would you trust our civil servants handling the deal on our behalf to make sure they didn't sign those rights away to His Bertrandship who treated them so well over the years?!

thepassanger

is it possible that if coillte were told to sell, that the new privatised company could do a better job than coillte are doing? dont get me wrong; if i woke up and found that access to local forests had been closed i would explode. is there a 'land use plan' from potential investors?

Pete_Cavan

http://www.etenders.gov.ie/search/show/search_view.aspx?ID=JAN196415

Just appeared today, they want to know what they can get for it.

recedite

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

http://www.etenders.gov.ie/search/show/search_view.aspx?ID=JAN196415

Just appeared today, they want to know what they can get for it.

That's crazy, putting out a tender asking some bean counter accountant to put a value on the landscape, biodiversity and national monuments in our forests. How much is Glendalough worth?

If we as a nation are really that broke, they should lease the land on some of the most boring bog conifer plantations, which contain little or none of the above "public goods" value. At least then we would get the land back in better times.
The Chinese leased Hong Kong to the British once upon a time when they were stuck...

Cookie_Monster

Madness.

what possible point could that have other than to prepare it for sale. there is no money to do this for the sake of it, the is some very dodgy dealings behind this. :mad:

salesjobs.ie

To the question: "What the hell is going on?" - This is straight out of "Yes Minister" speak - Humphries would have been proud - especially "Unfortunately an economic value is the common currency"


Dear Sir,

Thank you for your query regarding the rationale behind this exercise. It is unfortunate that this e-tender appeared at a time when there is speculation around the sale of Coillte in the media. Any link between this project and such speculation is purely accidental. Coillte has been considering the public goods (non market benefits) that it's forests deliver to Ireland for some years. We began work with an examination of the value of forest recreation and its contribution to rural tourism in 2005 and the results of this project are available on our website (under publications) should you wish to take a look.



We now wish to examine the value of forests in the landscape and also that of biodiversity and heritage. These are values that forests deliver to the people of Ireland and we believe it is essential that they are valued in a manner that policy makers understand and can use to make rational decisions. Unfortunately an economic value is the common currency. Interestingly however, the European Commission is increasingly calling for the TEEB - Total Ecosystem Economic Benefits - to be evaluated and used in decision making processes. We see this project as just part of the new understanding behind the management of large areas of lands and ecosystems such as we have.



I trust this answers your query. If you wish to discuss further please do not hesitate to contact me either by email or telephone.



Regards,

Bill Murphy



Bill Murphy

Head of Recreation

Coillte

Dublin Road

Newtownmountkennedy

Co Wicklow

ned209

has there been any recent developments? im just hearing about this now and im really angry.

@ the pillock who stated earlier the forests were crap anyway, you need a checking. where did you grow up?

moseythecat

I work as a forester in Ireland at the moment for a private company. we actively plant, manage and harvest forests.

Forests meet the peoples needs through a number of means, timber revenue, recreation, cultural and environmental. It would be madness therefore to sell off these assets at knockdown rates.

I think people are missing the point here. Forests have a significant economic value to Ireland. The sale of these lands would probably generate €1000/acre when in relaity they are worth €9000 - €10000 in timber alone. Some estimates have put the recreation value at 10 times that figure.

The problem with all of this is that the government are not coming out and staing their intentions. Wouldnt that allow the people have their say?

There is a lot of misleading information about damage to native forests and wildlife if the land was sold. That is ridiculous as all forest activities are regulated by the state Forest Service. as well as that nobody would want to purchase mature native woodlands.

mikep

Moseythecat, good to hear from someone in the industry. Could you explain why nobody would want to buy the mature native woodland? I assume its because extraction of timber from these would be economically unviable when compared with managed forest??

Also what is your opinion of coilltes record of management of their forests?

rgds

Mike

moseythecat

Hi Mike,

A lot of the existing old native woodlands would not be much use for timber. They generally would have old trees that would have poor shape, i.e the timber wouldnt be straight and would only be useful as firewood. most of these woodlands are also in designated areas ie SAC, NHA etc and would have regulations on what can occur here. Of course Coillte's estate also covers actively managed hardwood forests (oak, ash, beech) that would have significant economic value. But the old biodiversity woodlands would not be of use to anyone for timber. Clearly they are extremely important as reserves for wildlife, areas for recreation and quite simply natural beauty.

As I stated the industry is regulated by the Forest service. So if I want to harvest a woodland I need to apply for a felling license. This generally is refered then to a number of bodies, An Taisce, National Parks and Wildlife service, Fisheries boards. All of these people have a say in how an area should be managed and what impacts could result from a particular action. So it is not like if the forest were sold that there would be a rape and pillage policy imposed by the new owners.

Clearly the issue is that WE should retain the forests for Ireland use. Currently the forestry sector contribures about €1.8 bn to Irelands GDP. Why would we sell off a resource that can get us out of the hole we are in

In relation to Coillte, I think they have some excellent foresters and people working with them. The main problem is that they have far to many people. In my area I plant forest, thin plantations, harvest mature woodland, maintain existing plantations etc. The equivalent in Coillte qould be 6 men for my one job. Massive inefficiencies within Coillte are making them cut corners. The head men in the company probably have little knowledge of forestry at this stage and are more concerned with balancing the books

But you have to hand it to Coillte for its part in increasing Irelands land cover of forestry from 1% to over 10%

mike65

In the UK the forest sell off plan was abandoned in the face of a campaign that was
running full tilt within days, here it looks like everyone will as per usual sleepwalk....

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2011/feb/17/forest-sell-off-abandoned-sorry-caroline-spelman

Voodoo_rasher

Aisling Murphy wrote: »

Is it just me or does anyone else feel as outraged about this as I do?
My head is going to explode...I don't know how much more I can take of the constant revelations that are becoming a daily occurrence in this country? Have we all become so beaten down and desensitised that we feel too powerless and downtrodden to even protest? Where is the civil unrest and rebellion? Have we become so 'battered' we feel it's futile?
THE LAND BELONGS TO THE PEOPLE AND IS NOT FOR SALE! The IMF and ECB own a big enough part of us as it is. When do we say 'ENOUGH'.
:mad:

an ineffective, impotent media, a public dis-service broadcaster which seems to deliberately keep the populace IGNORANT and DUMB!! And is a convenient instrument for our Masters , it panders to Them.

AND because we dont know any better , we swallow all that is churned out by it hence not knowing what is happening unreported in the background. Do you sit through the daily white noise of the hour-long 6 One news?? Me neither! But so many choose to follow blindly the State Controlled Public Dis-service Broadcaster (PD-sB as termed by V Browne)

Voodoo_rasher

RATM wrote: »

But has there ever been a complete geologocal survey done on what lies beneath?


Leaving conspiracy aside though it is surely a smack in the face to the Irish people that Berties fecked up the property market and is now going to gain from his own failings by doing a land grab of 7% of the states land....incredible.


http://www.independent.ie/national-news/exit-stage-right-access-row-scuppers-lissadell-concerts-2507459.html

A survey has been commissioned. However it is said to languish in either offices of the Finance or Agri Departments and for some reason...is not being released! Cover-up anybody?

Pete_Cavan

moseythecat wrote: »

Hi Mike,

A lot of the existing old native woodlands would not be much use for timber. They generally would have old trees that would have poor shape, i.e the timber wouldnt be straight and would only be useful as firewood. most of these woodlands are also in designated areas ie SAC, NHA etc and would have regulations on what can occur here. Of course Coillte's estate also covers actively managed hardwood forests (oak, ash, beech) that would have significant economic value. But the old biodiversity woodlands would not be of use to anyone for timber. Clearly they are extremely important as reserves for wildlife, areas for recreation and quite simply natural beauty.

As I stated the industry is regulated by the Forest service. So if I want to harvest a woodland I need to apply for a felling license. This generally is refered then to a number of bodies, An Taisce, National Parks and Wildlife service, Fisheries boards. All of these people have a say in how an area should be managed and what impacts could result from a particular action. So it is not like if the forest were sold that there would be a rape and pillage policy imposed by the new owners.

Clearly the issue is that WE should retain the forests for Ireland use. Currently the forestry sector contribures about €1.8 bn to Irelands GDP. Why would we sell off a resource that can get us out of the hole we are in

In relation to Coillte, I think they have some excellent foresters and people working with them. The main problem is that they have far to many people. In my area I plant forest, thin plantations, harvest mature woodland, maintain existing plantations etc. The equivalent in Coillte qould be 6 men for my one job. Massive inefficiencies within Coillte are making them cut corners. The head men in the company probably have little knowledge of forestry at this stage and are more concerned with balancing the books

But you have to hand it to Coillte for its part in increasing Irelands land cover of forestry from 1% to over 10%

It would seem the best course of action would be to sell off the forests which are use for timber to private foresters and remove the inefficiencies associated with Coillte. Retain mature forests and woodlands are also in SAC, NHA, etc. areas as reserves for wildlife, areas for recreation and areas of natural beauty. Would you agree with this moseythecat?

ei.sdraob

At 1000 an acre where can I buy a forest myself :P

All that timber keep me warm for long time

fits

I just cant see any government selling off 7% of our land area to a foreign company. It would be crazy. I can however see them selling off parts of coillte. They have many subsidiaries and have branched out into many areas not strictly related to forestry.

The Fine Gael plan is to amalgamate Coillte and Bord na Mona into a 'Bioenergy Ireland'. I'm not sure about this plan either as I believe our forests have value in their capacity to produce timber, as a carbon sink, and as a recreation resource, as well as their potential to provide bioenergy, which is really just a by-product at this stage... albeit an increasingly important one.

It will be interesting to see what happens under the new regime now anyway.

liammur

I'm for selling all state assets. We need hundreds of billions of € and we need it quickly.

We gambled on the construction and we lost, now it's time to empty the coffers to pay back debt. Sad but true.

moseythecat

No I wouldn't agree. The best course of action would be to open up the woodlands for management by private companies. The state would retain full ownership but would put the forests out to tender. This way the resource would be managed more efficiently and the state would generate revenue from the woodlands.

There is no logic to selling off the land other than extremely short financial gain. We are entering a time when oil prices are going to start going through the roof. Why then would you sell off a resource that can provide wood for energy generation as well as all of the the other timber benefits. I have already stated that forestry is a profitable enterprise, last year saw some of the highest timber prices for years!

The message is simple, keep the asset in our ownership, improve efficiency through private managment. Retain revenue and our woodland heritage.

There are plenty of private forestry companies in Ireland with the expertise to take on the management of the state forests.

moseythecat

ei.sdraob wrote: »

At 1000 an acre where can I buy a forest myself :P

All that timber keep me warm for long time

unfortunately that is only the knockdown sale price. real forestry land prices are more like €2500 - €3500 an acre

liammur

moseythecat wrote: »

No I wouldn't agree. The best course of action would be to open up the woodlands for management by private companies. The state would retain full ownership but would put the forests out to tender. This way the resource would be managed more efficiently and the state would generate revenue from the woodlands.

There is no logic to selling off the land other than extremely short financial gain. We are entering a time when oil prices are going to start going through the roof. Why then would you sell off a resource that can provide wood for energy generation as well as all of the the other timber benefits. I have already stated that forestry is a profitable enterprise, last year saw some of the highest timber prices for years!

The message is simple, keep the asset in our ownership, improve efficiency through private managment. Retain revenue and our woodland heritage.

There are plenty of private forestry companies in Ireland with the expertise to take on the management of the state forests.

It's not ideal to have to sell anything, but state assets must and will go. I don't know what figures they'd get from a sale of the forests, but i imagine it would be considerable.

moseythecat

where do you draw the line then?

Do we privatise education, Health our water services? these are all drains on the state coffers. Do we have to flog everything to pay off a debt. What are you left with then? nothing...

Its just a matter of thinking clearly about it. The forest over time will yield more money than just a land sale alone. we have a long road ahead of us

liammur

Privatisation is not as bad as the PS unions crank it up to be. FF erred v badly with the privatisation of eircom, but yes, areas like education and health could and should be looked at as well.

liammur

liammur wrote: »

I'm for selling all state assets. We need hundreds of billions of € and we need it quickly.

We gambled on the construction and we lost, now it's time to empty the coffers to pay back debt. Sad but true.

private banks and private developers and businesses gambled on construction
the state didnt gamble on construction

the state only got involved when it was clear it couldnt win the bet.....what idiots!! Remember when 100,000 came out to protest against public sector cuts
and only a handful came out to protest NAMA

liammur

Deleted User wrote: »

private banks and private developers and businesses gambled on construction
the state didnt gamble on construction

the state only got involved when it was clear it couldnt win the bet.....what idiots!! Remember when 100,000 came out to protest against public sector cuts
and only a handful came out to protest NAMA

Unfortunately, this is incorrect. B Ahern et al knew exactly what they were doing. Around 25% of tax take was from construction. They knew this was wrong and unsustainable but kept it propped to give themselves something like 13 payrises.
It is true that most individuals of the state didn't gamble on it, but by electing these people, we are also inextricably linked to it.

ei.sdraob

liammur wrote: »

I'm for selling all state assets. We need hundreds of billions of € and we need it quickly.

We gambled on the construction and we lost, now it's time to empty the coffers to pay back debt. Sad but true.

@liammur
Ive no issues with privatization

but 1000 euro an acre for land with forest on it is a joke to be honest

liammur

ei.sdraob wrote: »

@liammur
Ive no issues with privatization

but 1000 euro an acre for land with forest on it is a joke to be honest

It depends. That does seem v cheap to me, but if the lands are sold to the highest bidder I would expect it to sell for far more.
At €1K per acre I'd be interested in picking up a quite a few acres myself!

recedite

liammur wrote: »

It depends. That does seem v cheap to me, but if the lands are sold to the highest bidder I would expect it to sell for far more.
At €1K per acre I'd be interested in picking up a quite a few acres myself!

That's the problem with this country; too many people thinking only of their own self interest. Sometimes the national interest is served by the cumulative effects of this, as when SME's contribute to the overall economy, but often we end up going down some blind alley, as happened with the recent FF Tent bailout politics.

The obvious way to get quick cash from state forestry while preserving the national interest is to sell long leases. Responsible foresters would then manage the land and provide wealth and employment from it.

Speculators would miss out on making a quick buck at the country's expense though; not everyone would be happy with that.

chris_d

liammur wrote: »

Privatisation is not as bad as the PS unions crank it up to be. FF erred v badly with the privatisation of eircom, but yes, areas like education and health could and should be looked at as well.

jesus h. christ.

liammur

recedite wrote: »

That's the problem with this country; too many people thinking only of their own self interest. Sometimes the national interest is served by the cumulative effects of this, as when SME's contribute to the overall economy, but often we end up going down some blind alley, as happened with the recent FF Tent bailout politics.

The obvious way to get quick cash from state forestry while preserving the national interest is to sell long leases. Responsible foresters would then manage the land and provide wealth and employment from it.

Speculators would miss out on making a quick buck at the country's expense though; not everyone would be happy with that.

I've no problem with speculators making a quick buck if they are able to, so long as any deals are done in an open and fair way. The opposite to D O Brien getting his licenses years ago. The highest bidder should prevail.

keithcan

salesjobs.ie wrote: »

To the question: "What the hell is going on?" - This is straight out of "Yes Minister" speak - Humphries would have been proud - especially "Unfortunately an economic value is the common currency"


Dear Sir,

Thank you for your query regarding the rationale behind this exercise. It is unfortunate that this e-tender appeared at a time when there is speculation around the sale of Coillte in the media. Any link between this project and such speculation is purely accidental. Coillte has been considering the public goods (non market benefits) that it's forests deliver to Ireland for some years. We began work with an examination of the value of forest recreation and its contribution to rural tourism in 2005 and the results of this project are available on our website (under publications) should you wish to take a look.



We now wish to examine the value of forests in the landscape and also that of biodiversity and heritage. These are values that forests deliver to the people of Ireland and we believe it is essential that they are valued in a manner that policy makers understand and can use to make rational decisions. Unfortunately an economic value is the common currency. Interestingly however, the European Commission is increasingly calling for the TEEB - Total Ecosystem Economic Benefits - to be evaluated and used in decision making processes. We see this project as just part of the new understanding behind the management of large areas of lands and ecosystems such as we have.



I trust this answers your query. If you wish to discuss further please do not hesitate to contact me either by email or telephone.



Regards,

Bill Murphy



Bill Murphy

Head of Recreation

Coillte

Dublin Road

Newtownmountkennedy

Co Wicklow

Just seeing this now from a poster and I have to take issue because I think the answer from the Coillte head of recreation is really good. How on earth can you describe it as 'Yes Minister' speak? I sincerely believe you'd have to be prejudiced in the extreme to read it that way. The fact that he says (my underlining) "Unfortunately an economic value is the common currency" shows that he is trying to explain to you that this is an essential element to the survey, whether he likes it or not.

Here is a fact: Coillte Recreation people have done a really good job in recent years in developing Walking Trails etc. They are key players in this area and use their land to develop other activities like mountain biking, etc.

The idea that they're seeking to place a value on other aspects to the forests like biodiversity and heritage - well how is that bad? How? I for one am delighted they are pursuing this evaluation as it will reinforce the broad value of the forests. Fair play to them for doing this.