The non-religious celebrating Christmas: hypocritical?!

Eliot Rosewater

I'm non-religious, yet in eleven days time I will be be celebrating Christmas with my family. I could justify it by saying that my parents are religious, and that I'm really doing it for them. But I'm not, and I bet most non-religious people aren't either.

The question is: are non-religious people justified in celebrating Christmas? Is it a bit hypocritical to reject most of Christianity, but take the fun bits, like Christmas?

Or, in our generally post-Christian Ireland, is Christmas now a secular holiday that just happens to have a religious past, like Halloween? Is Christmas just about taking a break from the hustle-bustle with one's family and friends, and having a couple of few-strings-attached days of contentment?

Or is it even contentment? Has the holiday been tarnished by the rampant consumerism now associated with it?

Denerick

Christmas hasn't been a religious event in western Europe for at least 150 years. Within the small sects that do reject all notions of materialism at Christmas time, we still see secular deities emerging.

For children, Christmas means one thing. Toys. For adults Christmas means two things; families and booze ups.* I haven't thought of Christmas as a religious event since I was a child, and even then I was probably a particularly odd child.

Christmas as a time of self evaluation, family togetherness and 'good will' is established in literature, film and popular culture as the great secular holiday of our time. Like many secular holidays it has its roots in monotheistic theology. But in practise it is a celebration of the more enlightened and favourable inheritances of Christian theology, a sort of faint memory of an idealised and hence more innocent time.

*It may also mean a third thing - family fights.

fatmammycat

I see it a a secular holiday to be enjoyed with friends and family. I won't be doing any mass business.

drkpower

We have hijacked their festival*, and they aint getting it back.

* - a festival they previously hijacked from someone else

liah

Christmas was never about religion for me. It's a time for family, most people have holidays around that time, it only makes sense that we take our family holidays around the same time.

I never saw the big deal with "hypocrisy" myself; sure, if I was celebrating in a church it may make sense to call me a hypocrite, but it's a day with family and it's a tradition for us. Who cares.

Plus, it could be argued they themselves stole it, so it'd be hypocritical on their part too..

Absolam

It was a festival long before the Christians hijacked it, so what comes around goes around

Dades

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

The question is: are non-religious people justified in celebrating Christmas? Is it a bit hypocritical to reject most of Christianity, but take the fun bits, like Christmas?

I'd like to point out that a lot of Christians reject a lot of Christianity too (yes I'm talking to you, "Irish Catholics"), without feeling the least bit hypocritical.

Links234

it's always been one of my favourite times of year, religion or not, I'll never stop celebrating christmas

Mark Hamill

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

The question is: are non-religious people justified in celebrating Christmas? Is it a bit hypocritical to reject most of Christianity, but take the fun bits, like Christmas.

How much of christmas do you think is actually christian? Most of the christmas traditions are from other, pagan, winter festivals, such as Saturnalia, (where gift giving and merry making come from) the Roman New Year (where we get greenery, lights and charity) and germanic feasts such as Jul (where we get things like Yuletide and yule logs).
Even what bits of it are christian in origin (the tree etc.) are far changed from their original conception with very few christians actually understanding the religious significance fo them.

ChocolateSauce

I see it more as a secular celebration of family and capitalism. So no, not hypocritical.

Personally, it's a celebration of being off for several weeks. I prefer not to buy or receive gifts.

philologos

Christmas is still very much a Christian festival on a practical level around the world, but it is evident that non-Christians in general can celebrate it with their families without committing themselves to a believe in Jesus Christ.

There are of course Christian parts of the whole celebration, from the cards commemorating the Nativity, to the carol services right around the country. Nativity plays and other such commemorations being held every year pretty much emphasise the Christian significance of the coming of the Lord Jesus into the world. Pretending that this doesn't exist is pretty farcical to say the least surely?

HavingCrack

In Ireland anyway it's become extremely secular. To be honest according to my granny it was never a very religious holiday going back to the 1940's, that was usually Easter. It's always just been a sort of celebratory 'meet the family. give presents to the kids, Santa Claus etc'. It has become extremely commericalised but it's been like that for years, Coca-Cola changed the colour of Santa from green to red like :rolleyes:. Not much hypocrisy.

HavingCrack

Jakkass wrote: »

Christmas is still very much a Christian festival on a practical level around the world, but it is evident that non-Christians in general can celebrate it with their families without committing themselves to a believe in Jesus Christ.

There are of course Christian parts of the whole celebration, from the cards commemorating the Nativity, to the carol services right around the country. Nativity plays and other such commemorations being held every year pretty much emphasise the Christian significance of the coming of the Lord Jesus into the world. Pretending that this doesn't exist is pretty farcical to say the least surely?

It's a fair point but how many people who watch the Nativity plays and go to carol services really know what it's about or identify as believing in it all. I'd be quite interested to see what the statistics would be.

philologos

HavingCrack wrote: »

It's a fair point but how many people who watch the Nativity plays and go to carol services really know what it's about or identify as believing in it all. I'd be quite interested to see what the statistics would be.

That's their prerogative. Largely in terms of its overall character, Christmas is still a Christian festival. People of any beliefs and none can use the time as they deem fit but there is still plenty of sign of it being a Christian festival even to this day.

Just because people can absent themselves from the Christian element to Christmas does not render it a "secular" festival.

Christmas also sees higher than normal church attendances.

Edit: As for the nativity plays, what about in cases where parents go to see their kids perform in them? Always knowledgable about the ins and outs, I'm not 100% sure if that is true in every case.

Mike 1972

It depends on what one means by "celebrating" Doing the whole Church thing would be a tad hypocritical. On the other hand the holiday has become so ingrained in Western culture that its virtually impossible to avoid. I mean if I were to turn up at my workplace on Christmas morning with the intention of doing a normal days work I dont think there would be anyone there to let me in !

I have some friends who are Alevi's In the last couple of years theyve started doing the whole Christmas trees and Santa thing for the benefit of the Kids (Got dragged along to the nativity play at their School as well). Back home my parents have some Sudanese neighbours. They often invite us to join in their end of Ramadam celebrations offering cakes and suchlike. Are we being hypocritical by accepting these ?

Jakkass wrote: »

Christmas also sees higher than normal church attendances..

Perhaps people "home for Christmas" would account for some of this ?

philologos

As for Ramadhan, I don't think you are, but you are celebrating an Islamic festival, albeit while not practicing Islam. The same analogy could be used for Christmas, or Channukah, or any other festival.

Gaspode

I have no problem celebrating Christmas as a non-religious feast day. I just consider it a mid-winter festival and enjoy the break from the routine.

Mike 1972

Jakkass wrote: »

As for Ramadhan, I don't think you are, but you are celebrating an Islamic festival, albeit while not practicing Islam. The same analogy could be used for Christmas, or Channukah, or any other festival.

I would imagine though that if you or I were to find ourselves in a predominantely Islamic country we would find ourselves "celebrating" (albeit not directly participating in) Islamic festivals to a much greater extent in a similar manner to the way my Alevi friends find themselves celebrating Christmas here.

Its not being hypocritical its just following the old "when in rome" maxim.

Gaspode wrote: »

I have no problem celebrating Christmas as a non-religious feast day. I just consider it a mid-winter festival and enjoy the break from the routine.

Most (all ?) cultures in the Northern hemisphere have some form of mid-winter festival (usually falling on or around the winter solstice) Ours just happens (for historic/cultural) reasons to be called "Christmas". Several people already alluded to its pagan roots. Its generally accepted that the events in the Christmas story (if they took place at all) would have occurred in spring or early summer.

philologos

Mike 1972 - I'm not arguing that it is hypocritical. I'm arguing that Christmas remains a Christian festival. People of all faiths and none can celebrate it. When people attempt to claim that it is actually not a Christian festival in its current state, that's what I find dishonest.

Mike 1972

Jakkass wrote: »

When people attempt to claim that it is actually not a Christian festival in its current state, that's what I find .

In theory it is a Christian festival. In practice for many people (including many Christians) the religious aspect plays only a small (if any) part of it. (How many times does one hear Christians bemoaning how it has "become too commercialised") Its roots are obviously Christian (albeit with a lot borrowed from early Pagan/Secular festivals) but nowadays for some people it is a still Christian festival. For others it is not.

toomevara

Well its just a variation on a timeless mid-winter ritual which has been celebrated, certainly in Europe for thousands of years. Its a big bleak mid-winter knees up, one in the eye for death, Cocking a snook at the misery of the cold, the economy, the fundamental awfulness of the human condition....It's a giant irrational vote of confidence in the future....I'm still here and I'm bloody well having a drinkie to celebrate....the fact that some media-savy early christians grafted on the nativity to muscle in on the party is vanishingly irrelevant....

The non-religious celebrating christmas..hypocrital..?about as hypocritical as a plastic paddy celebrating St Patrick's day...who cares? Eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we may die...or suffer economic catastrophe, or develop piles or, or ,or ad nauseum, ad infinitum......

Mike 1972

toomevara wrote: »

The non-religious celebrating christmas..hypocrital..?about as hypocritical as a plastic paddy celebrating St Patrick's day

Or even a non-Christian Irish person ?

Dravokivich

jakk - what aspect of christmas do you consider to be christian?

Wolfe Tone

The one day of the year the whole family goes to Mass together, always enjoyed the Christmas day mass too.

strobe

Jakkass wrote: »

Christmas is still very much a Christian festival on a practical level around the world, but it is evident that non-Christians in general can celebrate it with their families without committing themselves to a believe in Jesus Christ.

There are of course Christian parts of the whole celebration, from the cards commemorating the Nativity, to the carol services right around the country. Nativity plays and other such commemorations being held every year pretty much emphasise the Christian significance of the coming of the Lord Jesus into the world. Pretending that this doesn't exist is pretty farcical to say the least surely?

Who is pretending Nativity plays and cards with pictures of little baby Jesus on them don't exist Jakkass? Can you name a single person? If you want to dress up as Joseph and act in a Nativity play, off you go. If I want to eat turkey and buy a Buzz Lightyear for my nephew, off I go.

Even if I was to take part in a Nativity play, send a Christmas card with a picture of the three wise men following a star and sing Silent Night with some friends what would be wrong with that? It wouldn't necessarily be hypocritical (addressing the OP on the hypocrisy thing) {I won't be doing any of those things, I can't act, I don't buy Christmas cards they are a waste of paper and I prefer to phone or text people instead, it's more personal and I'm the worst singer the world has ever known}. But hypothetically maybe I like acting and like the Nativity story. Is it hypocritical if I act in a production of Epimetheus even though I don't believe Zeus is the king of the gods? Is it hypocritical if I send my cousin in America a 4th of July card, even though I am not American? Is it hypocritical for me to have sang Mexicanos, al grito de guerra when I was in Mexico drinking in the street with friends on Cinco de Mayo?

I don't think so, personally.

The 25ft of December is a global celebration these days, from China and Japan to Ireland and America. It was originally a pagan holiday and probably something else before that. For Christians it is all about Jesus being the son of god and their saviour. For a lot of the Japanese it is about buying absolutely sh1tloads of weird ass gadgets, for a lot of the Chinese it is about hanging lanterns and eating in western resturaunts, for a lot of Irish it is about eating turkey, drinking till you pass out, watching The Karate Kid and Die hard on TV and catching up with family. I see nothing hypocritical in any of this.

Wicknight had a good post on this over in the A&A forum as well so I'll just quote it here:

Wicknight wrote: »

• I don't believe in Santa, I still put stockings up (this year with a dancing electronic puppy from Penny's)
  
• I don't work in a bank, I still take bank holidays
  
• I don't worship Christ, I still have Christmas dinner.
  
• I don't worship Saturn, I still take Saturday off and have a lie in.
  
• I don't believe Patrick was a saint, I still get pissed on St. Patricks Day (getting alcohol poisoning being the traditional way to celebrate a saints day apparently).
  
• I don't believe evil spirits visit the Earth at the end of October, I still dress up in costumes.

I think people would have a lot easier time understanding atheist attitudes to Christmas if they just thought of all the holidays and festivals they celebrate without taking literally.

philologos

Dravokivich wrote: »

jakk - what aspect of christmas do you consider to be christian?

See what I've already mentioned above.

strobe: Again I'm not suggesting that you or anyone else is hypocritical for celebrating Christmas. I've not said this once. Indeed, the very spirit of Christmas should be to welcome everyone to partake in it. However, Christmas itself is still very much a Christian festival.

You personally can absent yourself from the Christian notion, but this has no bearing on it being a Christian festival on a general level. In particular in your case it might have nothing to do with it, whether or not this is the case in the general Irish reality is questionable.

Edit: as mentioned by another poster carol services are still very much a part of Christmas celebrations up and down the country. The focus of the vast majority of these hymns are to bring notice to Jesus' birth.

Zombrex

Jakkass wrote: »

See what I've already mentioned above.

strobe: Again I'm not suggesting that you or anyone else is hypocritical for celebrating Christmas. I've not said this once. Indeed, the very spirit of Christmas should be to welcome everyone to partake in it. However, Christmas itself is still very much a Christian festival.

That is seriously debatable.

Just because people do Christmas things doesn't mean it is still a Christian festival. You can see this by how many non-Christians also partake in these traditional Christmas things, such as giving presents, having a tree, having a big dinner, everyone getting together etc

You wouldn't call Halloween a Christian festival any more, even though all the practices have Christian origin. A thing a similar argument could be made for Christmas. One can easily imagine Christmas happening exactly the same without any Christians at all.

This shouldn't trouble a Christian much to be honest. There is nothing Christian about the rampant materialism and consumerism that has become a mainstay of Christmas in modern times.

philologos

I wouldn't call Halloween a Christian festival because there isn't anything Christian in it. Christmas on the other hand is entirely different. The entire message of Christmas is present in numerous forms of celebration. Everyone connects the word Christmas to Jesus in some way whether or not they happen to attend church, carol services, nativity plays and other Christian expressions of Christmas is arbitrary.

Dades

Of course if you asked people what Christmas was really about, most would answer with some summary of the birth of Jesus.

Most wouldn't be too aware of it's pagan history, and in reality only celebrate the holiday rather than the event, but there's no doubt Christianity is in the mix.

The Christians may have robbed it from the pagans, and Coca Cola Inc may have robbed it from the Christians, but it's still there for any of us to make of it what we will.

philologos

I would argue that Coca-Cola and others have attached their products onto what is a Christian festival. I don't think I overly have that much an issue with Christmas being a gift-sharing, family-sharing holiday, indeed these are rather in keeping with Christianity itself.

strobe

Jakkass wrote: »

strobe: Again I'm not suggesting that you or anyone else is hypocritical for celebrating Christmas. I've not said this once.

I know, I made a point of saying that here

strobe wrote:

It wouldn't necessarily be hypocritical (addressing the OP on the hypocrisy thing)

Only my first paragraph was directed to you.

Zombrex

Jakkass wrote: »

I wouldn't call Halloween a Christian festival because there isn't anything Christian in it. Christmas on the other hand is entirely different.

Everything in Halloween has Christian origin. We hardly notice any more because the Christian origin of the practices a Halloween have been lost to the mists of time. The same thing is happening with Christmas.

Jakkass wrote: »

The entire message of Christmas is present in numerous forms of celebration.

Peace, joy and celebration is not a message exclusive to Christianity, and as such doesn't require Christianity to be celebrated, any more than putting a candle in a pumpkin requires the concept of Purgatory to be fun.

Jakkass wrote: »

Everyone connects the word Christmas to Jesus in some way whether or not they happen to attend church, carol services, nativity plays and other Christian expressions of Christmas is arbitrary.

The people who attend church at Christmas is a small subset of the over all number who celebrate Christmas with other traditions such as Christmas trees, present giving, Christmas dinner, family gatherings etc.

For example in 2009 2.6 million people [EDIT]In England[/EDIT] attended CoE church ceremonies over Christmas. That is just over 5% of the population. While the rest could have gone to other denominations, I doubt it. And there are plenty of non-religious reasons to visit carol singers, that is not an overtly religious practice.

I'm not saying Christians don't celebrate Christmas in the traditional manner. I'm saying for the wider population Christmas as a celebration is largely divorced from the original Christian origin.

We may say that this is about the birth of Jesus in the same way we say that putting a light in a pumpkin at Halloween is about souls in Purgatory, but that isn't why we do it these days. Knowledge of the origin of the tradition is not the same as following the original meaning of the tradition.

Mike 1972

Wicknight wrote: »

For example in 2009 2.6 million people attended CoI church ceremonies over Christmas. That is just over 5% of the population..

The Population of Ireland is 52 million ???

Do you mean Church of England perhaps ?

Zombrex

Mike 1972 wrote: »

The Population of Ireland is 52 million ???

Do you mean Church of England perhaps ?

Yeah sorry, my bad

philologos

Wicknight -

Not requiring Christianity to be celebrated != Christianity is absent from Christmas or indeed that it isn't a Christian festival.

Big logical jump on your part.

Nevyn

Wicknight wrote: »

Everything in Halloween has Christian origin.

Ok then please explain the christian origins for bonfires, masks, the dumb supper, the collecting at the door.

All souls day is Christian, Hollow'een is not and has it's roots in Samhain which is pagan.

Rev Hellfire

Its safe to say that Christmas, Halloween and Easter are purely secular events these days, getting worked up about their increasingly irrelevant primitive beginnings is pointless.

philologos

I still don't understand how this could be said of either Christmas or Easter. There is much that goes on around the central events certainly, but the central events are still very much a part of both.

Rev Hellfire

Jakkass wrote: »

I still don't understand how this could be said of either Christmas or Easter. There is much that goes on around the central events certainly, but the central events are still very much a part of both.

Easter is about the giving and receiving of chocolate eggs while Christmas is about the giving and receiving of presents ( ohh and blokes coming down chimneys ).

The religious elements are merely quaint historical trappings for most people, nice to have but merely decorative.
Something to add a bit more charm to the proceedings. See and they say religion wasn't useful

Kind of like the 'Christian' weddings popular in places like Japan, complete with fake churches and priests etc.

philologos

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

The religious elements are merely quaint historical trappings for most people, nice to have but merely decorative.
Something to add a bit more charm to the proceedings. See and they say religion wasn't useful

I really don't know if that's true. I would agree with you that more don't care, but I wouldn't agree with you that most people in Irish society don't really care about:
1) Christ coming into the world.
2) Christ dying to save the sins of the world.
in any way.

Mark Hamill

Jakkass wrote: »

I really don't know if that's true. I would agree with you that more don't care, but I wouldn't agree with you that most people in Irish society don't really care about:
1) Christ coming into the world.

If they truely cared about this, then why do celebrate this on the wrong date (september is more accurate), thinking of the wrong birth place (nowhere in the bible is a stable mentioned, only the manger) with the wrong onlookers (no animals are mention and the wise men weren't numbered, weren't necessarily men and didn't arrive until Jesus was a toddler)?

Jakkass wrote: »

2) Christ dying to save the sins of the world.

So they celebrate this with chocolate eggs (pagan symbol of the earth) and name the celebration after the pagan god of spring?

philologos

Mark Hamill wrote: »

If they truely cared about this, then why do celebrate this on the wrong date (september is more accurate), thinking of the wrong birth place (nowhere in the bible is a stable mentioned, only the manger) with the wrong onlookers (no animals are mention and the wise men weren't numbered, weren't necessarily men and didn't arrive until Jesus was a toddler)?

Are you seriously claiming that in the Middle Ages (Christmas was made official in 800AD) people didn't care about Christianity? - I'd thoroughly advise you to read some medieval philosophy.

We don't know when Jesus was born, but to reform another festival in order to serve this purpose seems fine to me. I could celebrate Jesus' birth mid-April for all I would care. The date is irrelevant. What is relevant is that Jesus' coming into the world changed it forever.

As for no "animals" - the point of a manger in most Jewish agricultural households was to store the animals.

Wise men aren't numbered but their gifts are a good indication. Sure there could have been more.

Mark Hamill wrote: »

So they celebrate this with chocolate eggs (pagan symbol of the earth) and name the celebration after the pagan god of spring?

Eggs also signify new life. Actually Easter is better timed than Christmas considering that Christ died during the festival of passover. Simply put Christians celebrate Easter as the day that Jesus conquered the grave, thus raising us to new life in Him in the process (Romans ch6). I'm also doubtful that in antiquity it was necessarily celebrated on a Sunday.

Dades

For most people under 50, Easter is about two Bank Holidays, chocolate eggs, and remembering to buy your booze on Holy Thursday.

The whole Jesus thing is more recognised at Christmas because a baby in a manger (who usually looks about a year old) is a far better sell than the sadistic and gruesome sight of a guy being scourged and nailed to a tree. Like a lot of Christianity, the fluffiest aspects have the most longevity.

Rev Hellfire

I think we can all agree that historically there was a strong Christian connection with these dates. And that the Christian connection was what defined them, the pagan association long having been usurped.

But just as back then, the meaning of these festivals has changed from a Christian one to a largely secular one. The Christian elements having no greater importance than the accompanying pagan set pieces today.

dolphin city

christmas started out as a pagan event and was not even religious at all. the church took it over -

philologos

I personally don't see any real evidence for it Rev. Hellfire. Yes more people have chosen to absent themselves from Christianity, but this doesn't mean that the overall character of both has changed in a meaningful way.

dolphin city: Paganism isn't a group of religions?

FoxT

Christmas is a Church holiday, and is also a secular holiday. religious people & secular people are free to celebrate it (or not) as they see fit. The history of the holiday is in my view irrelevant, it is down to what you feel is right for you, in the world you are living in, today.

I see no hypocrisy here.

I am non-religious myself, but will attend mass with my family, because it costs me nothing, and means a lot to (at least some of) them . They all know what my position is regarding the church, & while I will be present at mass, won't be taking communion. Again I see no problem with this, though I am sure others might.

Rev Hellfire

Jakkass wrote: »

I personally don't see any real evidence for it Rev. Hellfire. Yes more people have chosen to absent themselves from Christianity, but this doesn't mean that the overall character of both has changed in a meaningful way.

I'd agree with you that they're both still defined as religious holidays, but for an increasing majority the religious element is really secondary to festive elements associated with the particular days.

Lets put it this way if you where to ask people what's the first thing that pops into their heads when they hear the words Christmas and easter. Chances are it would be Santa and Easter eggs. Would you disagree ?

I'm not saying religion is absent from them, rather its no longer the defining characteristic of them.

Zombrex

Jakkass wrote: »

Wicknight -

Not requiring Christianity to be celebrated != Christianity is absent from Christmas or indeed that it isn't a Christian festival.

Big logical jump on your part.

Christianity is absent from those who do not celebrate Christmas as a Christian event. Which is an awful lot of people.

Or put it this way, what more would be required to happen for you to say it is genuinely no longer a Christian event but merely a secular event with Christian traditions?

As Hellfire points out if you got people to list of what Christmas means to them I would imagine "Celebrating the birth of Jesus" would be pretty far down on the list, after Santa, family, Christmas tree, turkey dinner, present, holiday movies, drinking etc. all of which have religious origin but are now secular.

philologos

Right, that's their prerogative. It still doesn't diminish the fact that Christmas is largely a Christian festival.

What would be required to come to that conclusion would be the absence of the clear poignant markers that establish Christmas as a Christian festival as I've listed above.

Mark Hamill

Jakkass wrote: »

Are you seriously claiming that in the Middle Ages (Christmas was made official in 800AD) people didn't care about Christianity? - I'd thoroughly advise you to read some medieval philosophy.

Why would I read medieval philosophy when we are discussing people today really believing in the nativity? (you said "I wouldn't agree with you that most people in Irish society don't really care....")

Jakkass wrote: »

We don't know when Jesus was born, but to reform another festival in order to serve this purpose seems fine to me. I could celebrate Jesus' birth mid-April for all I would care. The date is irrelevant. What is relevant is that Jesus' coming into the world changed it forever.

Which is kind of my point. Its really a important event, except the details.

Jakkass wrote: »

As for no "animals" - the point of a manger in most Jewish agricultural households was to store the animals.

No animal were mentioned in the bible. People have ideas of sheep, donkeys and other farm animals around, but not a single animal is mentioned.

Jakkass wrote: »

Wise men aren't numbered but their gifts are a good indication. Sure there could have been more.

Most people dont think this though. Most people think that 3 wise men is a literal part of the bible.

Jakkass wrote: »

Eggs also signify new life. Actually Easter is better timed than Christmas considering that Christ died during the festival of passover. Simply put Christians celebrate Easter as the day that Jesus conquered the grave, thus raising us to new life in Him in the process (Romans ch6). I'm also doubtful that in antiquity it was necessarily celebrated on a Sunday.

Doesn't really answer my point about naming the festival after a pagan deity. Pointing out that eggs also represented something else in paganism doesn't really deal with anything ether.