Spaying versus neutering

magentas

I was kind of going off topic in another thread about this so decided to start a new one.

I'm not talking about whether to get a dog spayed/neutered per se but rather the actual difference between getting a female spayed and a male neutered.

There's great arguments for getting a female spayed, the obvious one been to stop an unwanted pregnancy and adding to Irelands overpopulation of dogs and hence tens of thousands been put down each year. you don't need to go through the stress of heats.
Another would be hugely reducing the chances of developing cancers and other serious illnesses.

On the other hand, there are no such health benefits for having a dog neutered (apart from testicular cancer of course) and there is the risk of a change in their personality. I know people say that this is a myth but I disagree TBH

Neutering is actually castration for a male and they take EVERYTHING

I can't say that neutering will change his personality but by the same token someone can't tell me that it won't change his personality and I don't want to put him through an operation that is unneccessary.
He is healthy and happy and has a real sparkle about him.
Like humans, I believe that each dog has their own personality and it would affect each dog differently, regardless of breed etc so it's not something I'm willing to take a chance on as I love him the way he is.

copied from other thread cos I'm lazy haha!
we don't intend to neuter our dog (well he's still a puppy) we are very responsible with him, he is only ever off-lead outside when he is 100% under our supervision. Lots of our neighbours allow their dogs out to wander for most of the day and it's sad because I sometimes see them near the main road and god only knows what they get up to for the day.

our fella will never be given the opportunity to roam, our garden is 100% secure and he will never be used for breeding as there is already a huge amount of unwanted dogs in Ireland. IMO as long as there are dogs in shelters there is no excuse for breeding unneccessarily

unless there is any medical reason, in which case there would be no question about it, we don't intend getting it done

any other pros or cons to either side?

we're fostering a bitch now that we hope to adopt and she will need to be spayed soon and I have no issue with that, although any advice on pre and post-op care would be appreciated!:)

belongtojazz

I believe that any dog who is going to be allowed off lead should be neutered. Even the best trained dog will run away to investigate a bitch in heat. You could be the most responsible owner around but you cannot guarantee that there isn't a bitch around the area you are walking your dog.

I got my dog when he was 7 and the poor guy was tormented by hormones. He humped everything in sight and being " done " was the kindest thing for him. I don't believe it affected his personality at all, it just have him some peace

As for your other dog, when she's done, just try to keep her calm for the shirt while after and make sure neither of them get at her stitches, she'll bounce back amazingly fast.

ISDW

I do understand what you're saying, but as belongtojazz says, the urge to mate is so strong, that if ever he's off lead somewhere and he gets the whiff of a bitch in season, he could be gone - maybe across a road etc. However, I've got a dog here who is neutered, has been for nearly 4 years now, and still tied with a bitch in season there a few months ago. However, I don't think he'd have tried to escape to get to her, she was just there, and I guess the temptation was too much for him:rolleyes:

All of my dogs are neutered/spayed and I can honestly say that I haven't seen a change in personality. Vince is a special little husky, and he was only neutered in the summer, when he was 18 months old, he hasn't changed at all, he is still the bounciest, happiest dog I have ever met - and everyone else that meets him says the same thing.

Personally, I would always get all of my dogs neutered/spayed, but thats my personal preference.

TooManyDogs

magentas wrote: »

Neutering is actually castration for a male and they take EVERYTHING

You do know that a female getting spayed is actually having hysterectomy? It's a far less invasive op for a male.

Other health benefits for a male is far lessening the changes of him getting knocked down on the road and damaging himself trying to get through fencing/barriers/over walls trying to get to a bitch in heat. The male dogs I know that were neutered later only changed personality for the better. They lost their aggression with other male dogs and the wandering after a bitch in heat completely went

lrushe

Given the choice I wouldn't neuter a male dog, I've no problem with anyone who chooses to do it and I can definately see the logic in all rescues doing it but my own personal dogs I wouldn't without good reason. For example I have a male dog who I did neuter because he lives with 2 bitches. I don't spay bitches until they are fully mature which means them having 2-3 heats and he was nightmare to be around when they were in heat so he was neutered at the age of 5, he is absolutely the same bouncy, hyper dog now at the age of almost 10 as he was then. I have a bitch in heat at the moment and he will mount her but obviously no chance of pregnancy!

toadfly

magentas wrote: »

we don't intend to neuter our dog (well he's still a puppy) we are very responsible with him, he is only ever off-lead outside when he is 100% under our supervision.

but as others have said you cannot guarantee his recall if he smells a bitch in heat.

We got a 5 year old male Yorkie in February, we only had him less then 2 months before we got him neutered. In that time he humped everything he could! He bed, his blanket, dog toys, our female dog, my leg etc..

He hasnt done it once since thankfully!

He is a bit of a wanderer so will never be offlead as he will just put the head down and keep running. Our garden is escapeproof now...he has tried! So I couldn't have left him the way he was. But even if he didnt tend to wander and hump everything I still would have gotten him done. You can never know when he could get out accidently by a visitor. workman etc.

Zapperzy

TooManyDogs wrote: »

You do know that a female getting spayed is actually having hysterectomy? It's a far less invasive op for a male.

Other health benefits for a male is far lessening the changes of him getting knocked down on the road and damaging himself trying to get through fencing/barriers/over walls trying to get to a bitch in heat. The male dogs I know that were neutered later only changed personality for the better. They lost their aggression with other male dogs and the wandering after a bitch in heat completely went

Not technically true. Depends on which vet you use, some only remove the ovaries leaving the uterus and some remove both the ovaries and the uterus. They find just removing the ovaries isin't as hard on the animal and the incision is smaller.

http://www.petmd.com/blogs/fullyvetted/2008/december/spay-it-forward-ovariectomy-vs-ovariohysterectomy-veterinary-medicine

Personally I will always spay and neuter and will always recommend to others to do so. But I have nothing against people doing their research and making a well researched decision to not neuter, but I do not agree with people not neutering/spaying purely for personal reasons (finance (there is help out there), their own beliefs, men not neutering their own dogs because they wouldn't do it to themselves, it's not natural etc. ).

Correct me if Im wrong but in Finland (or somewhere up there) isin't it illegal to neuter/spay unless you can prove you cannot prevent your dog from straying or for medical reasons as it's concidered a cosmetic procedure. I would imagine though that this system works over there because they have not got a stray dog problem.

TooManyDogs

Zapperzy wrote: »

Not technically true. Depends on which vet you use, some only remove the ovaries leaving the uterus and some remove both the ovaries and the uterus.

As far as I'm aware in Ireland the common procedure is to remove uterus and ovaries unless you specify otherwise.

Zapperzy

TooManyDogs wrote: »

As far as I'm aware in Ireland the common procedure is to remove uterus and ovaries unless you specify otherwise.

I have met vets who only remove the ovaries, tbh Im not sure which method is more common but I know both are used in Ireland.

Sigma Force

We've always had female dogs, not on purpose just turned out that way, but when choosing our youngest dog we went with male for a change plus hubby was starting to feel out numbered.

We had him neutered and it did not change his personality in any way what so ever and it doesn't change dogs personalities. It may make some quieter eg less likely to hump or be as rowdy but his personality stayed exactly the same.

The main benifit I found aside from health benifit plus not wanting to breed from him etc. was that he stopped piddling all over the place, no more cocking the leg against everything. All dogs mark their territory to one point or another but we found anyway that the benifits of having him neutered outweighed not having him done.

Whispered

Forgetting about wandering or any other benefit to the owner, I decided to get my boy done having seen my friends (show) dogs react to a local bitch in heat. It honestly upset me how distressed they were. We live in a housing estate, there are people around with intact bitches, including our next door neighbour. I genuinely think in my case it was the kindest thing.

doctor evil

All my pets (over the years) were spayed/neutered.

I don't get how the personality can change except for less aggression/rowdyness. What annoys me a bit is when people won't s/n because they don't want small animals, sure its the temperment that counts not if the pet has secondary sexual characteristis.

shinikins

In regards to spaying, full hysterectomy is the method more commonly used by most vets. Many vets practises simply cannot outlay the cost of new equipments specifically for the use of ovariectomy(removal of the ovaries) It also cuts down on the occurances of infections in the womb at a later date which can be insidious and extremely hard to detect until latter stages.


Personally, i feel that unless you guarantee that you can keep your intact dog on a leash at all times, neutering is the only option. It only takes a split second for a dog off leash to get the sccent of a bitch in heat and they're gone. Neutering a dog does not change its personality-complete fallacy! Many dogs are calmer after neutering but they don't become a different dog after!!

magentas

thanks to everyone for your replies, I respect everyones opinions, some people use the word "wandering" but he is never allowed to wander...ever!

we let him off-lead in very quiet areas if there is nobody around, he would not get knocked down on the road as he would never be off-lead anywhere near a road TBH!

Surely no-one would let a bitch in heat roam anyway? well, then again, I guess you can never underestimate people!

I do know a dog that got neutered about a month ago and he appears disinterested and generally a bit more sluggish than his usual self, maybe it's just temporary though.

It's great to get some non-judgemental advice

belongtojazz, thanks for the advice on my girls op, will keep that in mind:)

IrishHomer

Can someone please clarify here does neutering a male dog make him prone to becoming overweight?

My dog kennels owner said it does but i thought this was only the case for bitches being spayed?

lrushe

IrishHomer wrote: »

Can someone please clarify here does neutering a male dog make him prone to becoming overweight?

My dog kennels owner said it does but i thought this was only the case for bitches being spayed?

Really there's no reason for any dog spayed or neutered to be overweight.
You will need to keep a closer eye on his calorie intake but so long as he is still kept active he should be fine.

teacherspet

What I would like to know is what breed of dog are we talking about here, as I think it is important.

magentas

teacherspet wrote: »

What I would like to know is what breed of dog are we talking about here, as I think it is important.

is that directed at me or irishhomer?

why is it important? activity levels and such?

teacherspet

At you.
Some dogs when netured are really really prone to put on weight. No matter how much you try to limit their food.
1. Cavalier.
2. Labrador.
3. Keeshound.
4. Rotties.
People may disagree but so be it.:(

magentas

oh sorry, he's a border collie.

I started this thread with the hope of finding some non-judgemental advice/ opinions/facts

he's full of beans and I worry that he might become overweight and (don't laugh!) but maybe even a little depressed:o

I don't know, that's why I'm asking! from the replies here it looks like nobody noticed a change of any kind in their dogs after neutering

I really would be upset if he lost his drive and that spark he has

The fact that there would be no health benefits makes me think it's unneccessary too

there is a lot to be said for getting a female spayed though, besides the fact that we won't ever be breeding her, I wouldn't be able for the heats, they sound like a lot of work and it sounds stressful for the bitch too.

I know my girl was in heat first time she met our dog (both on lead obviously!) and she was knackered trying to keep dogs away from her, poor girl

I'm not looking forward to the operation though:(
I'll give her loads of TLC afterwards

lorebringer

teacherspet wrote: »

At you.
Some dogs when netured are really really prone to put on weight. No matter how much you try to limit their food.
1. Cavalier.
2. Labrador.
3. Keeshound.
4. Rotties.
People may disagree but so be it.:(

These are dogs that will generally put up the weight whether neutered or not, lots of other breeds could be in this list too. Whatever the breed (or mix), any dog will put on weight if they are fed too much and not exercised enough - just like humans!

@ IrishHomer - from experience, spayed bitches tend to be more prone to weight gain than neutered dogs. Their metabolism slows down and they can get a bit doughy. In saying this, keeping a close eye on your dogs food intake, feeding them enough for their activity level should help curb this and walking the bum off them should help prevent this.

teacherspet

Oh no problem with a collie, spay or nurture at your hearts content. Will not make a scrap of difference, in my opinion.

Donne

If you're getting a male pup at say 7 to 8 weeks of age. When would the best age to get him neutrered?

Straight away or how long after?

toadfly

Donne wrote: »

If you're getting a male pup at say 7 to 8 weeks of age. When would the best age to get him neutrered?

Straight away or how long after?

The youngest is usually 6 months but for males it might be better to wait until nearer to 12/18 months as long as you can guarantee he wont get out.

Cherry Blossom

Donne wrote: »

If you're getting a male pup at say 7 to 8 weeks of age. When would the best age to get him neutrered?

Straight away or how long after?

Depends what breed, toy dogs maybe 10 months, bigger dogs I'd wait much longer. It's not advisable to put any dog under 6 months under anesthetic and you shouldn't be getting a pup at 7 weeks, it's too young and it's necessary for them to stay with the rest of their litter for their development and to learn how to behave around other dogs. Personally I think 9 weeks is the optimal time to take them.

Donne

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

Depends what breed, toy dogs maybe 10 months, bigger dogs I'd wait much longer. It's not advisable to put any dog under 6 months under anesthetic and you shouldn't be getting a pup at 7 weeks, it's too young and it's necessary for them to stay with the rest of their litter for their development and to learn how to behave around other dogs. Personally I think 9 weeks is the optimal time to take them.

I'm getting a Boxer. I'd like to get him neutered as soon as possible, so he isn't tempted to wander.

Why is it that toy dogs can be done much earlier then larger dogs? I would have thought it would be the other way round.

Shanao

Donne wrote: »

I'm getting a Boxer. I'd like to get him neutered as soon as possible, so he isn't tempted to wander.

Why is it that toy dogs can be done much earlier then larger dogs? I would have thought it would be the other way round.

Toy breeds mature much faster and finish their growth cycle within ten to twelve months of age. A yorkshire terrier is a fully grown adult by twelve months whereas a retriever or shepherd can take up to fifteen/sixteen months (that goes for boxers too) to mature, and giant breeds like danes and St bernards take two years of age to reach full growth, sometimes even longer. The longer wait is to ensure that the dog is fully grown.

All dogs can be neutered at around the six months mark, but IMO i would leave it for a while. If a dog is well-fenced in, he wont be able to wander.

Cherry Blossom

Donne wrote: »

I'm getting a Boxer. I'd like to get him neutered as soon as possible, so he isn't tempted to wander.

Why is it that toy dogs can be done much earlier then larger dogs? I would have thought it would be the other way round.

There is a line of thought that early neutering can stunt a dogs growth which can lead to bone cancer later on. Some are also of the opinion that it can affect their mental development basically suspending the dog in an everlasting state of puppyhood or adolecence mentally, puppy's are great craic but I don't think I'd want a dog in 'that' state of mind for its whole life!

doctor evil

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

There is a line of thought that early neutering can stunt a dogs growth which can lead to bone cancer later on. Some are also of the opinion that it can affect their mental development basically suspending the dog in an everlasting state of puppyhood or adolecence mentally, puppy's are great craic but I don't think I'd want a dog in 'that' state of mind for its whole life!

Surely thats just secondary sexual characteristics that are stunted bulkiness of shoulders etc.

I think in a way most dogs (and cats) exist in an infant like state since the owner meets all their needs.

koneko

My Sibe boy is a really really special dog, I adore him. We got him neutered last year and he hasn't changed at all, apart from being a teensy bit less dominant around other dogs.

He hasn't lost his spark, social nature and he's still super affectionate. His personality hasn't changed.

We got another neutered yesterday, he's really energentic and it's a PITA getting him to calm down so he doesn't damage his stitches, lol. Not a bother on him except that he hates the E-collar.

tesslab

as regards to weight gain the advice i got from our vet was to cut down our dogs food just by a small amount when she was fully grown. (She was 6 months old when she was spayed so cut down her food when she was about 18 months) She is a beautiful lean labrador! Always get lovely compliments about how she looks! mind you she gets a lot of exercise which is very important.
Tbh i'm not a believer in the theory that certain breeds tend to gain more weight. I think it can often be the owners unable to resist those big brown eyes!! :D

lrushe

doctor evil wrote: »

Surely thats just secondary sexual characteristics that are stunted bulkiness of.

Dog that are done before sexual maturity are know to be leggier or more out of portion than entire animals or those s/neutered after maturity.

sionnaic

Got our two boys done at 8 months in August. Our collie cross was a bit unsettled the first month but has since settled down. Personality hasnt changed except to get more affectionate but that could be the extra training and socialisation we've been doing too.

Our basset almost immediately became much happier and really playful, energetic and mischievous. His, ahem, "things" were massive and with his stumpy legs they were dangling very low so we reckon they must have been weighing him down

Neither have put on weight or had negative personality changes. Weight wise we're very careful about what they eat and feed them a really high quality food, and they're well exercised.

Regarding the impression people have that their dogs put on weight or get lazy/morose after neutering - a lot of the time its just that it coincides with the dog getting older and growing out of their puppyhood with the associated natural personality change. Plus at the same time their bodies are maturing and bulking up. Plus sometimes it can be a case of the novelty of the pup wearing off and the enthusiasm for walking him every day starts to wane. Plus as the pup moves into adulthood they need less calories but owners continue to feed them the same.

magentas

great to hear these positive stories re: (non) weight gain! and more importantly, not changing their personality.

the dog I know that got neutered recently has gained weight and seems a little down in himself since the operation but as sionnaic said this may be coinciding with something else?

I'll be keeping an eye on him anyway, hopefully it's not a long-term effect for the little fella

Thanks for all the replies, great to hear the pros but are there any cons?

for instance, I've heard about dogs reacting badly to anesthesia

ISDW

magentas wrote: »

great to hear these positive stories re: (non) weight gain! and more importantly, not changing their personality.

the dog I know that got neutered recently has gained weight and seems a little down in himself since the operation but as sionnaic said this may be coinciding with something else?

I'll be keeping an eye on him anyway, hopefully it's not a long-term effect for the little fella

Thanks for all the replies, great to hear the pros but are there any cons?

for instance, I've heard about dogs reacting badly to anesthesia

I think that is something to be considered, all sugical procedures come with some risk. I get all of the rescue dogs neutered/spayed and usually, as I haven't formed a huge bond with them, drop them off at the vets and go about my business, then pick them up, not really thinking about it. However, when having my own dogs done, yes, I do worry about them during the operation, and phone as early as I can to see how they are. Sorry if that sounds a bit heartless:)

Thankfully I've never had a dog with any problems during an operation yet.

Shanao

Finally managed to dig out my veterinary nursing notes this morning. I already mentioned the pros in another thread, so here's the cons and myths that I have.

Cons:
Risk of osteosarcoma (a type of bone cancer) if the dog is neutered before twelve months of age.
Risk of urinary tract cancer.
Risk of cardiac hemangiosarcoma (a highly malignant cancer which affects blood vessels).
More prone to hypothyroidism or low thyroid levels
Risk of orthopedic problems if neutered too young

And the Myths of neutering of course:
Neutering does not change a dog's personality, though it will eliminate some aggressive behaviours.
Neutering does not make dogs prone to obesity. While their metabolism may slow down, as it does with age, they may gain weight, but only if not properly exercised and overfed.

Shanao

In saying that though, I will still always neuter. I still feel the pros outweigh the cons especially in this country when we have so many problems with animal welfare and the abundance of strays.

Shanao wrote: »

Pros
Medical:
No Testicular Tumors
No passing on of a hamful genetic trait (Hip dysplasia etc)
Decreases risk of Hernias
Decreased risk of Perianal Tumors
Decreased risk of problems with Prostate

Behavioural Advantages:
Decreased Aggression
Decreased Roaming
Less marking by urination

Less stress on the dog as well, for example, if the dog is in the garden and a bitch in heat trots past, then the male can become extremely distressed trying to escape to mate with her.

That's what I can think of off the top of my head in the argument for neutering male dogs.

doctor evil

lrushe wrote: »

Dog that are done before sexual maturity are know to be leggier or more out of portion than entire animals or those s/neutered after maturity.

A cosmetic reason.

Zapperzy

doctor evil wrote: »

A cosmetic reason.

But could it not lead to something like hip dysplasia if the dog is out of proportion?

lrushe

doctor evil wrote: »

A cosmetic reason.

An orthopedic one.

Donne

Great info everybody especially Shanao (are you a vet?).

I'll let my lad get up to twelve months and then have the snip done.

Best for his own peace of mind and the risk of unwanted litters, to have the
thing done sooner or later.

Shanao

Donne wrote: »

Great info everybody especially Shanao (are you a vet?).

I'll let my lad get up to twelve months and then have the snip done.

Best for his own peace of mind and the risk of unwanted litters, to have the
thing done sooner or later.

Bleh, only saw this now. I studied veterinary nursing and worked with a vet for two years. Spent a lot of time thinking about getting my own dogs neutered though so I've gone through all of this quite a bit. Glad that we were able to help.

lyndonjones

Hi all, have read this thread with interest as we are the owner of a lovely Maltese/ Yorkie Cross and during the visit to the vet she before Christmas she mentioned neutering the dog mainly for health reasons.

From what I have read through the various threads it is best to wait until "Buddy" is fully grown which is probably 10-12 months, am I right in saying this?

Am I also right in saying that the general consensus here is that nuetering/ spaying has more PRO's than CON's and that the temperament of the dog should not alter?

andreac

To answer your questions, yes your dog should be fully mature around a year old as its a small breed and yes there are more pro's to neutering and as your dog is a cross breed, its is absol vital that it is neutered to stop anymore unwanted litters being bred as there are already thousands of cross breeds in rescues/pounds that are pts everyday, so every cross breed should be neutered as they shouldnt be bred from.

Sorry, just read your post again. You dont have to wait until your dog is a year to get it neutered. As your dog is a cross breed it should be done sooner rather than later so anytime from 6 months on is fine.

toadfly

lyndonjones wrote: »

Am I also right in saying that the general consensus here is that nuetering/ spaying has more PRO's than CON's and that the temperament of the dog should not alter?

Definately more pros than cons IMO. The personalities of my two didnt change. We got the female done at 18 months (had her from 8 weeks) and the male at 5 (ish) years two months after we got him. It did stop the humping and marking in the male though even at that age.