Just Discovered My Car is Clocked. What Can I Do?

Malice

Hi folks, I'm looking for some advice. Earlier this year I bought a car and I've just discovered it was clocked . I brought it to a garage yesterday as there is a problem with the engine and they were able to show me the mileage readout from the diagnostic program. It read nearly 225k whereas the dashboard readout is only around 170k. This car has been very troublesome for me since I bought it. I've had to get the gearbox and the clutch repaired and I've also had problems with the intercooler. I've put nearly €2k into it on repairs and now that I have found out the car was clocked I'm wondering what I can do.

I see from here that clocking isn't actually illegal in Ireland. I thought that was a bit odd until I realised it needs to be legal e.g. for dashboard replacements to be possible as described here.

I can accept that repairs are a necessary evil when it comes to cars and that maybe I've just been unlucky with this one but the way I see it, either the garage knew the car was clocked and sold it to me anyway which is fraud or they sold it to me without doing a proper diagnostic checkup on it which is incompetence. Either way it's unacceptable. I checked and the garage is a member of SIMI. Would it be worthwhile calling them up? Should I try to deal with the National Consumer Agency maybe?

Vanstring

It may not be illegal to clock a car. But from my understanding it is illegal to sell a car knowing it has been clocked. False advertising etc. Im not sure on the procedure on resolving the issue but if you have contact details for the seller I presume you could take action against them.

Anan1

OP - I'd start by contacting the garage, see what they say. It may be that they'll be willing to take it back at a price that makes it worth your while to just leave it at that. Failing such a response, I think you'll have to get professional legal advice.

omb0wyn5ehpij9

Anan1 wrote: »

OP - I'd start by contacting the garage, see what they say. It may be that they'll be willing to take it back at a price that makes it worth your while to just leave it at that. Failing such a response, I think you'll have to get professional legal advice.

+1

emptyshed

Is illegal.
Theft and fraud offences act, making a gain by deception.

The problem is proving who was aware of it.

EPM

It's not illegal unless the deny it when directly asked.

Agree your first port of call is the garage. At that mileage the relatively small difference to the actual mileage will probably not influence value too much so you may well be able to make a deal with them. Also check items such as timing belt change intervals to ensure you're covered on that front too.

SpannerMonkey

prob no way of proving it
also be aware that if your car reads in miles and you get a dealer print out it will be in Kilometers i got a fright like that before

also clocking itself isnt illegal, its illegal to do it to defraud and profit from it , but almost impossible to prove which of probably many previous owners did it, how would you like it if you sold the car not knowing it was clocked and someone came back to you demading money even though you did nothing wrong ,

best bet is to ring the citizens advice and ask them

mathepac

emptyshed wrote: »

... Theft and fraud offences act, making a gain by deception. ...

That seems to be UK legislation. Any relevent Irish law?

slimjimmc

mathepac wrote: »

That seems to be UK legislation. Any relevent Irish law?

There is no equivalent Irish law AFAIK. It is not illegal to clock a car or sell it knowing it to be clocked unless the buyer asks you and you deceive him by telling a false mileage (that may come under obtaining goods or monies by deception). No offence is committed if the buyer doesn't ask so it's a case of caveat emptor.

Malice

Anan1 wrote: »

OP - I'd start by contacting the garage, see what they say. It may be that they'll be willing to take it back at a price that makes it worth your while to just leave it at that. Failing such a response, I think you'll have to get professional legal advice.

Thanks Anan1, the garage in question were pretty unhelpful when I contacted them previously about other things. Unfortunately they are located in the opposite end of the country to me and they probably think "out of sight, out of mind".
I'm pretty sure that if I call them they will just deny any knowledge of the clocking and of course I won't be able to prove that they did know anything about it. The car in question was on carzone.ie but I presume there's no way of checking the ad archive to see if the mileage was referenced on the ad itself. I will also look for the original receipt to see if the mileage is mentioned anywhere.

davy_b wrote: »

prob no way of proving it
also be aware that if your car reads in miles and you get a dealer print out it will be in Kilometers i got a fright like that before

The diagnostic program gives the ECD figure in miles and kilometres and the speedometer on the dashboard is in kilometres so it has definitely been clocked, I haven't just looked at the wrong figure .

davy_b wrote:

also clocking itself isnt illegal, its illegal to do it to defraud and profit from it

Yeah, if you look at first link in my post you can see why clocking in itself isn't illegal.

davy_b wrote:

but almost impossible to prove which of probably many previous owners did it, how would you like it if you sold the car not knowing it was clocked and someone came back to you demading money even though you did nothing wrong

I'm hoping though that I can find something that proves the garage knew about the clocking as otherwise it's probably just my word against theirs. As for me selling the car on, I know what you mean. It was just by chance that the garage ran the diagnostic program to check and were able to tell me.

EPM wrote:

Also check items such as timing belt change intervals to ensure you're covered on that front too.

I asked them about the timing belt before I bought the car (I knew enough to ask about that ) and they said it had been replaced. I'll check in the daylight tomorrow, I think there's a figure written on it for when it's to be changed again but of course, I don't know if that's the clocked figure or the real figure.

CyberGhost

OP - Here's the best advice, sell the car, buy another and next time properly check everything.

You'll waste your time and money with the garage.

Cavehill Red

slimjimmc wrote: »

There is no equivalent Irish law AFAIK. It is not illegal to clock a car or sell it knowing it to be clocked unless the buyer asks you and you deceive him by telling a false mileage (that may come under obtaining goods or monies by deception). No offence is committed if the buyer doesn't ask so it's a case of caveat emptor.

Am I right in thinking that it is still fraud if you say something like 'So this car's done 175,000 miles?' and they say yes when it's done significantly more than that?

phill106

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Am I right in thinking that it is still fraud if you say something like 'So this car's done 175,000 miles?' and they say yes when it's done significantly more than that?

well to be pedantic, if a car has done a million miles, and you were asked that question, you could honestly say yes.

johnb25

Malice_ wrote: »

Thanks Anan1, the garage in question were pretty unhelpful when I contacted them previously about other things. Unfortunately they are located in the opposite end of the country to me and they probably think "out of sight, out of mind".

I think you will need to contact the garage initially. First, it would normally be considered courtesy to give them a chance to respond, although I take your point above. Secondly, I do not think SIMI, consumer agency, Citizens Information, or any other external agency will get involved until you have raised it with the garage. Generally, outside agencies will only get involved when the normal complaint procedure has been exhausted.

omb0wyn5ehpij9

CyberGhost wrote: »

OP - Here's the best advice, sell the car, buy another and next time properly check everything.

You'll waste your time and money with the garage.

What makes you think you would have known 100% that the car was clocked?
Maybe the OP did make a mistake and should have spotted it.
But from the sounds of things, he didn't really make much of a mistake, seeing as he had no idea or doubt in his mind that it may have been clocked until it was connected to a diagnostic tool.
He also mentioned that the car has had work done on it previously since he has bought it, and obviously if the mechanic doing the work on the car had noticed it was clocked, there is a good chance most (not all mind you) would mention this to the owner.

So tell me oh all knowledgeable one......how would you know that a car was clocked if there was no signs of it? And the only time it was found out was when it was run through a diagnostic tool?

CyberGhost

Bryn wrote: »

As usual, some idiot in here thinks he is great and knows it all :rolleyes:

What makes you think you would have known 100% that the car was clocked?
Maybe the OP did make a mistake and should have spotted it.
But from the sounds of things, he didn't really make much of a mistake, seeing as he had no idea or doubt in his mind that it may have been clocked until it was connected to a diagnostic tool.
He also mentioned that the car has had work done on it previously since he has bought it, and obviously if the mechanic doing the work on the car had noticed it was clocked, there is a good chance most (not all mind you) would mention this to the owner.

So tell me oh all knowledgeable one......how would you know that a car was clocked if there was no signs of it? And the only time it was found out was when it was run through a diagnostic tool?

I always take the car I'm serious about to a garage and make the guys there run a diagnostics on it, does not take much time or cost much at all.

Eoin

CyberGhost - I've snipped your post. Please try and be a bit more grown up.

Bryn, cool it please.

CyberGhost

eoin wrote: »

CyberGhost - I've snipped your post. Please try and be a bit more grown up.

Bryn, cool it please.

So he can call me an idiot without proper ground for it and I can't even call him an a** in reply?

It's unfair IMO, my post was edited yet his is left alone.

omb0wyn5ehpij9

eoin wrote: »

CyberGhost - I've snipped your post. Please try and be a bit more grown up.

Bryn, cool it please.

Apologies Eoin

Eoin

CyberGhost wrote:

So he can call me an idiot without proper ground for it and I can't even call him an a** in reply?

It's unfair IMO, my post was edited yet his is left alone.

OK, I've snipped his post as well. You'll note that I warned him right below where I warned you as well.

If you've any more problems, send me a PM and don't derail this thread any further.

CyberGhost

Thanks, no problems, back to the topic...

sdanseo

I have heard (I think here on Boards, and recently) about some fella who discovered the same thing and the garage gave him an immediate refund, no questions asked. Tell them in no uncertain terms that you've found them out, and insist they refund your money immediately. If they don't (and I'd be tempted to add even if they do), contact the SIMI and NCA.

_MadRa_

Perhaps you should look at the nct test records, they record the mileage when the car is tested...it might show you when it was clocked and if it was owned by the garage at the time...

cadaliac

sdonn wrote: »

I have heard (I think here on Boards, and recently) about some fella who discovered the same thing and the garage gave him an immediate refund, no questions asked. Tell them in no uncertain terms that you've found them out, and insist they refund your money immediately. If they don't (and I'd be tempted to add even if they do), contact the SIMI and NCA.

I think I remember that one too.
tbh, that is more than likely down to the garage in question. If the garage is caught out and thinks that its reputation is at risk, then yes I can see why it would be more financially beneficial to the garage just to fork out to the customer and take the hit rather than bad press and a poor local reputation, which could lead to closure in the long run if everyone got wind of the clocking.
However, if the garage in question doesn't rate this person (OP in this case) as a real threat to the business, they might just fight and deny all allegations of clocking. Who knows?
There is also the possibility that the garage didn't have any knowledge of the clocking in the first place. This is also a very plausible angle. In such a case, why would a garage entertain an irate customer with claims of car clocking that had "nothing" to do with them?
When I say "nothing", I mean they did not know about it and didn't run a diagnostic on the car. I would be surprised if garages did this to every car that passes through their gates. I would seriously doubt it actually.
In any case OP - speak directly to someone in charge at the garage. you might have to make a personal call. Over the phone can be dismissed so much easier. Best of luck and keep us posted.

Malice

CyberGhost wrote: »

OP - Here's the best advice, sell the car, buy another and next time properly check everything.

You'll waste your time and money with the garage.

I hopefully won't be wasting my time with the garage as either they were negligent in not checking out the car or they were engaged in fraud by knowingly selling it to me with a false mileage. As for checking everything properly it's a lesson learned for sure. Previously all my cars and the cars of everyone else in my family were bought through one garage in Galway so we have never had to get anything verified as we could rely on the garage 100%. I have been working in various parts of the country over the last couple of years and I went on the recommendation of my landlord to the garage that sold me the clocked car as I didn't have anything else to go on.

sdonn wrote: »

I have heard (I think here on Boards, and recently) about some fella who discovered the same thing and the garage gave him an immediate refund, no questions asked. Tell them in no uncertain terms that you've found them out, and insist they refund your money immediately. If they don't (and I'd be tempted to add even if they do), contact the SIMI and NCA.

Given that I bought the car nearly a year ago I don't know how far I'll get demanding a full refund.

_MadRa_ wrote: »

Perhaps you should look at the nct test records, they record the mileage when the car is tested...it might show you when it was clocked and if it was owned by the garage at the time...

That's a good point. The car is actually due for its NCT in January.

cadaliac wrote: »

I think I remember that one too.
tbh, that is more than likely down to the garage in question. If the garage is caught out and thinks that its reputation is at risk, then yes I can see why it would be more financially beneficial to the garage just to fork out to the customer and take the hit rather than bad press and a poor local reputation, which could lead to closure in the long run if everyone got wind of the clocking.
However, if the garage in question doesn't rate this person (OP in this case) as a real threat to the business, they might just fight and deny all allegations of clocking. Who knows?
There is also the possibility that the garage didn't have any knowledge of the clocking in the first place. This is also a very plausible angle. In such a case, why would a garage entertain an irate customer with claims of car clocking that had "nothing" to do with them?
When I say "nothing", I mean they did not know about it and didn't run a diagnostic on the car. I would be surprised if garages did this to every car that passes through their gates. I would seriously doubt it actually.
In any case OP - speak directly to someone in charge at the garage. you might have to make a personal call. Over the phone can be dismissed so much easier. Best of luck and keep us posted.

As I mentioned earlier in the thread the garage is in the opposite end of the country to me so going there in person isn't really an option especially if it's just to argue the toss over whether they knew the car was clocked or not. They may well think I'm not a threat to their business considering the distance between us.

Feardorca

The Garage being an SIMI member will be very upset that they have sold you a vehicle with incorrect mileage. Contact the Garage immediately, if you do not get satisfaction then contact the SIMI. But I'll bet the garage will go to great lenngths to see you satisfied, Next time use Cartell.ie as they can give you a history and inspection for very small money.

Malice_ wrote: »

Hi folks, I'm looking for some advice. Earlier this year I bought a car and I've just discovered it was clocked . I brought it to a garage yesterday as there is a problem with the engine and they were able to show me the mileage readout from the diagnostic program. It read nearly 225k whereas the dashboard readout is only around 170k. This car has been very troublesome for me since I bought it. I've had to get the gearbox and the clutch repaired and I've also had problems with the intercooler. I've put nearly €2k into it on repairs and now that I have found out the car was clocked I'm wondering what I can do.

I see from here that clocking isn't actually illegal in Ireland. I thought that was a bit odd until I realised it needs to be legal e.g. for dashboard replacements to be possible as described here.

I can accept that repairs are a necessary evil when it comes to cars and that maybe I've just been unlucky with this one but the way I see it, either the garage knew the car was clocked and sold it to me anyway which is fraud or they sold it to me without doing a proper diagnostic checkup on it which is incompetence. Either way it's unacceptable. I checked and the garage is a member of SIMI. Would it be worthwhile calling them up? Should I try to deal with the National Consumer Agency maybe?

Eoin

I'm not sure SIMI membership really means all that much to the consumer. Also, as pointed out earlier; you could clock a car lots of times without cartell or motorcheck knowing. Once you don't clock it to a mileage figure below what was previously recorded, I don't see how they'd be able to tell that.

Cavehill Red

phill106 wrote: »

well to be pedantic, if a car has done a million miles, and you were asked that question, you could honestly say yes.

However, you would be deliberately misleading the customer since the implication of the question is that the recorded mileage is the actual one.
Perhaps that might give a dodgy clocker some wriggle room in the eyes of the law if sued for misrepresentation of goods for example, but I wouldn't be sure of it.

mathepac

Feardorca wrote: »

The Garage being an SIMI member will be very upset that they have sold you a vehicle with incorrect mileage. Contact the Garage immediately, if you do not get satisfaction then contact the SIMI. But I'll bet the garage will go to great lenngths to see you satisfied, ....

The SIMI is a trade association for car dealers and garage owners, in other words they are birds of a feather. The SIMI has nothing to do with consumer protection. In actual fact, by signing the SIMI order form / contract, you agree to be bound by their mediation service for conflict resolution,

The garage will be delighted if a customer contacts the SIMI as it removes the troublesome customer from their phone / forecourt and the SIMI will look after those who pay their membership fees, i.e. the garages whose interests they are committed to protecting.

R.O.R

mathepac wrote: »

The SIMI is a trade association for car dealers and garage owners, in other words they are birds of a feather. The SIMI has nothing to do with consumer protection. In actual fact, by signing the SIMI order form / contract, you agree to be bound by their mediation service for conflict resolution,

The garage will be delighted if a customer contacts the SIMI as it removes the troublesome customer from their phone / forecourt and the SIMI will look after those who pay their membership fees, i.e. the garages whose interests they are committed to protecting.

The SIMI will chase up cases of clocking from their members, and will work with the Gardai if they suspect fraud. I've assisted SIMI in investigations in the past (providing service records) but unfortunately the dealer went in to voluntary liquidation before any case could be made.

SIMI might not do much, but they don't stand as idly by as some people suspect.

cantdecide

If you’ve spent €10k on the car, I think you should be upset. Even at that, you should probably hope for the best but prepare for the worst. I suggest going back to them and telling them you want them to take the car back and give you another (and be extra diligent this time), or else ask them to refund your original outlay.

If you’ve only paid a couple of grand, I’d put it down to experience and keep the car until it stops.

What kind of car is it? Engine, year, spec etc

Icarus152

emptyshed wrote: »

The problem is proving who was aware of it.

My understanding is that a professional car dealership would be expected to know about this before selling the car,a private individual would not.

It's happened to me here in Waterford before.Long story short,bought the car from a non-SIMI dealer,rang the main dealer re a query on the timing chain,he let it slip about the cars previous mileage which showed a discrepancy and on close inspection,the service history log book was interfered with.

I rang the Consumer Agency and they were eager to proceed with the case.However,they wanted to gather evidence etc and this would have taken time.I just wanted my money back,went back to dealer with a print out from the main dealer as proof and got my money back.

Stick with SIMI dealerships,imo.

Icarus152

Just on the NCT part,the NCT record on my car that was clocked backed up the phony mileage.The NCT was done by the dealer after he bought it and he clocked it before he sent it in.

declanobrennan

Where did you buy your car?

desiredbard

declanobrennan wrote: »

Where did you buy your car?

Oh that can not be discussed here.
Your post will get removed.

I could have avoided this issue...and I bought from a SIMI registered dealer.
Anyone can be SIMI registered..... people will have to push through their complaints..this takes time

And one is not allowed to discuss this here .......

However PM me and I forward you the filth on my dealer