Children should be taught to type in primary school

HeadPig

The amount of people who "hunt and peck" out there is pretty ridiculous. A typing class would be far more practical than a lot of the rubbish taught in primary schools.

Typing properly is faster and its better for your fingers. Like a lot of other things its easier to learn when you're younger rather than trying to get in the habit in later life.

Saila

r u aware of txting tho, dis wood kill it neway

General General

Children should be taught to read & write Chinese too.

bonerm

With the way tech is progressing I doubt 10-15 years from now anyone will be typing anything.

rebel10

As would learning Chinese.:rolleyes: They will need it in the future.
There are so many things that we need the kids to be taught, typing isin't really the most important.

Carl Sagan

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVtw-ctzA7Q

How I learned.

dxhound2005

HeadPig wrote: »

The amount of people who "hunt and peck" out there is pretty ridiculous. A typing class would be far more practical than a lot of the rubbish taught in primary schools.

Typing properly is faster and its better for your fingers. Like a lot of other things its easier to learn when you're younger rather than trying to get in the habit in later life.

Fully agree. I learned to type to use teleprinters and telex machines. For a few years I did not have much use for it but when computers came in it was so useful. I don't see keyboards going out of use anytime soon.

HeadPig

bonerm wrote: »

With the way tech is progressing I doubt 10-15 years from now anyone will be typing anything.

What do you think will replace it?

flyaway.

I was taught to type in primary school.

Arnold Layne

Why should it be taught in schools since we now have "99%" broadband in the country according to the "green" party. This must mean everyone household has access to a PC.

IMO, kids should be taught Mandarin and Spanish instead of Irish as it opens up a vast percentage of the world to our future generation of emigrants.

Typing skills will allow them to remain in Ireland on the minimum wage, whatever that will be, but it won't be enough to sustain themselves.

Dean820

Sure most Irish teachers can't even type themselves. Never mind teach it.

HeadPig

Arnold Layne wrote: »

Why should it be taught in schools since we now have "99%" broadband in the country according to the "green" party. This must mean everyone household has access to a PC.

IMO, kids should be taught Mandarin and Spanish instead of Irish as it opens up a vast percentage of the world to our future generation of emigrants.

Typing skills will allow them to remain in Ireland on the minimum wage, whatever that will be, but it won't be enough to sustain themselves.

Teaching another language, although obviously useful, would require hours of work every day. Typing could be taught one hour a week for 1 year and that's it. A foreign language would need hours of schooling everyday for years.

partyatmygaff

We used to have computer classes every week from senior infants onwards in my primary school. The nearest thing we did to a typing class was a spelling program that happened to tell you your WPM.

IIRC my WPM progressed like this

6 years = 18-20WPM (Faster than my teacher despite not even having my own computer at home yet )
8 years = 25-28WPM
10 years = 32-35WPM
12 years = 40-42WPM
14 years = 50-60WPM
17 years = 90WPM (Measured two minutes ago )

I never took a single proper typing class. All it took was experience. For most, 30-40WPM is more than enough though.

rebel10

Dean820 wrote: »

Sure most Irish teachers can't even type themselves. Never mind teach it.

What a ridiculous assumption to make. I don't know anyone who has a degree that hasn't had to type up a 10,000 word thesis, can imagine how painful that would be if you hadn't the ability to type.
Jeebus, some people will just moan about everything

HeadPig

rebel10 wrote: »

What a ridiculous assumption to make. I don't know anyone who has a degree that hasn't had to type up a 10,000 word thesis, can imagine how painful that would be if you hadn't the ability to type.
Jeebus, some people will just moan about everything

TBH, he's probably right.

rebel10

HeadPig wrote: »

Teaching another language, although obviously useful, would require hours of work every day. Typing could be taught one hour a week for 1 year and that's it. A foreign language would need hours of schooling everyday for years.

But would be much more beneficial for our future workforce if they were able to speak the mother tongue of the new super powers

Ruu_Old

I had a typing teacher in primary school called Mavis Beacon.

AnneElizabeth

Why is everyone saying to learn Chinese? First of all it would be far too confusing for primary schoolers when they're still learning spellings, words and the alphabet in their own language and secondly if everyone speaks Chinese the other languages will die out. Let Irish die, but I like English

I agree with the OP though, typing is vital these days. though there are plans to get rid of the keyboard and mouse altogether in the future and find new ways to communicate to computers (like orally etc)

HeadPig

partyatmygaff wrote: »

We used to have computer classes every week from senior infants onwards in my primary school. The nearest thing we did to a typing class was a spelling program that happened to tell you your WPM.

IIRC my WPM progressed like this

6 years = 18-20WPM (Faster than my teacher despite not even having my own computer at home yet )
8 years = 25-28WPM
10 years = 32-35WPM
12 years = 40-42WPM
14 years = 50-60WPM
17 years = 90WPM (Measured two minutes ago )

I never took a single proper typing class. All it took was experience. For most, 30-40WPM is more than enough though.

I presume you type with proper form? Fingers on the home keys etc

rebel10

HeadPig wrote: »

TBH, he's probably right.

No, he is not probably right, any person who has qualified in the last 20 years has had to learn to type, so no I don't accept that

jaffa20

rebel10 wrote: »

What a ridiculous assumption to make. I don't know anyone who has a degree that hasn't had to type up a 10,000 word thesis, can imagine how painful that would be if you hadn't the ability to type.
Jeebus, some people will just moan about everything

Hmm, some people actually pay to have their essays typed in college!

DOC09UNAM

I had never used a computer until I turned 16.

By 17 I could touch type and was in a computer course in college.

If you're interested in it, you'll learn, it's the same as everything really.

rebel10

jaffa20 wrote: »

Hmm, some people actually pay to have their essays typed in college!

Yeah, because of the workload involved in it on top of all the college essays. You would be hard pushed to find a student now who hand writes their essays.

Copper23

HeadPig wrote: »

The amount of people who "hunt and peck" out there is pretty ridiculous. A typing class would be far more practical than a lot of the rubbish taught in primary schools.

Typing properly is faster and its better for your fingers. Like a lot of other things its easier to learn when you're younger rather than trying to get in the habit in later life.

I have to disagree... the longer we can keep "juveniles" from being let loose on the world of the internet the better.

partyatmygaff

HeadPig wrote: »

I presume you type with proper form? Fingers on the home keys etc

Yeah, I stopped search and hunting keys around the age of 8. The only time I ever do that now is when I'm using keyboards with strange layouts or different charactersets like a French AZERTY keyboard. Even then it doesn't take too long to get used to.

jaffa20

rebel10 wrote: »

Yeah, because of the workload involved in it on top of all the college essays. You would be hard pushed to find a student now who hand writes their essays.

No, you'd be surprised at the amount of mature students who pay to have their essays typed. I hardly see it as an issue anyway. It doesn't make them in any way less intelligent than somebody who can type.

partyatmygaff

jaffa20 wrote: »

No, you'd be surprised at the amount of mature students who pay to have their essays typed. I hardly see it as an issue anyway. It doesn't make them in any way less intelligent than somebody who can type.

It's a bit lazy though. Computers are used almost everywhere now and typing is very much a necessary skill.

Naikon

I have noticed three things over the years that have improved my typing. I can touch type now despite never attending lessons. Not the fastest in the world, but touch typing is really nice. Not sure if my typing conforms to "standards", but I tend to keep on the home row and just memorise each key/function. Oh, yes, these should be taught to every kid(earlier the better):pac:

1: How to download, install, and use Debian Linux(higher level pupils -> Gentoo/LFS)
2: How to properly use the vi/vim text editor
3: Type, type, TYPE!

If I was minister for Education, I would ensure every pupil can do the above before leaving school. Forget crap like Irish, tech skills will get you a job in the 21st century. Irish won't.

/awaits some flame
/fanboy

rebel10

jaffa20 wrote: »

No, you'd be surprised at the amount of mature students who pay to have their essays typed. I hardly see it as an issue anyway. It doesn't make them in any way less intelligent than somebody who can type.

I'm not talking about mature students, I'm talking about teachers who have qualified in the last 20 years. I believe its not something our country can afford right now anyway, can you imagine the amount of money needed to give each school at least 30 computers for the kids to work on. Mainly because they have them at home and with practice and help from parents they should have accomplished the basic skills once they reach secondary, where they do have computer classes. May i also add, its not just typing they will need, there are many other programmes they will probably need to be able to function before they enter the workforce.
But once again, there are other priorities for schools right now

partyatmygaff

rebel10 wrote: »

I'm not talking about mature students, I'm talking about teachers who have qualified in the last 20 years. I believe its not something our country can afford right now anyway, can you imagine the amount of money needed to give each school at least 30 computers for the kids to work on. Mainly because they have them at home and with practice and help from parents they should have accomplished the basic skills once they reach secondary, where they do have computer classes. May i also add, its not just typing they will need, there are many other programmes they will probably need to be able to function before they enter the workforce.
But once again, there are other priorities for schools right now

I've never heard of any secondary school holding computer classes (Barring 4th years). They should introduce an ICT subject for the Leaving Cert. I'd have taken it in a heartbeat.

Saila

partyatmygaff wrote: »

I've never heard of any secondary school holding computer classes (Barring 4th years). They should introduce an ICT subject for the Leaving Cert. I'd have taken it in a heartbeat.

mine did, so you have now :cool:

General General

AnneElizabeth wrote: »

Why is everyone saying to learn Chinese? First of all it would be far too confusing for primary schoolers when they're still learning spellings, words and the alphabet in their own language and secondly if everyone speaks Chinese the other languages will die out. Let Irish die, but I like English

Sweet statement. & your argument preceding it doesn't hold water. However, that doesn't surprise me.

partyatmygaff wrote: »

We used to have computer classes every week from senior infants onwards in my primary school. The nearest thing we did to a typing class was a spelling program that happened to tell you your WPM.

IIRC my WPM progressed like this

6 years = 18-20WPM (Faster than my teacher despite not even having my own computer at home yet )
8 years = 25-28WPM
10 years = 32-35WPM
12 years = 40-42WPM
14 years = 50-60WPM
17 years = 90WPM (Measured two minutes ago )

I never took a single proper typing class. All it took was experience. For most, 30-40WPM is more than enough though.

My progress went like this:

first five years, went from 0 to 20 words a minute, then I got a net connection & started having dirty chatroom conversations with what I hope were women, went from 20 to 60 words a minute, stopped having dirty chatroom conversations with what I hope were/are women, went from 60 to 45 words per minute.

partyatmygaff

Saila wrote: »

mine did, so you have now :cool:

ECDL and that sort of rubbish or a proper computers class?

rebel10

partyatmygaff wrote: »

I've never heard of any secondary school holding computer classes (Barring 4th years). They should introduce an ICT subject for the Leaving Cert. I'd have taken it in a heartbeat.

Well i was in school 15 years ago, and i had them. I now teach in a secondary schools and computers is given to every student for a single period p/w, and in 4th yr its four periods. LCA the same as ICT is a subject for them for the L.C.

Saila

partyatmygaff wrote: »

ECDL and that sort of rubbish or a proper computers class?

I suppose depends what you mean by proper, no we didnt learn dos/Linux and all that proper crap :rolleyes:

DOC09UNAM

partyatmygaff wrote: »

ECDL and that sort of rubbish or a proper computers class?

Wow, way to put down all the people that did ECDL.

Naikon

Saila wrote: »

I suppose depends what you mean by proper, no we didnt learn dos/Linux and all that proper crap :rolleyes:

ECDL is complete and utter garbage. Seriously, I know people who just paid for it and got the "Official" cert. Microsoft is not the best when it comes to certification. Most certs are pretty crap, even the technical ones. When it comes to IT, alot of your "skill" is based on merit, and not on a piece of paper that says someone can do something. Ok, maybe I am being unfair on the ECDL, but most of the stuff it teaches is not used by most people.

Dos command line is a joke imo. If you want to properly learn the bash/sh command line in a quick manner, I have found this to be brilliant: http://www.pixelbeat.org/cmdline.html

You're not a programmer if you don't know squat about regular expressions. Oh, and don't think you know everything. I don't, you don't. Believing otherwise is stupidity. And no, you don't have to memorise every little detail. That is what documentation is for.

DOC09UNAM

Naikon wrote: »

ECDL is complete and utter garbage. Seriously, I know people who just paid for it and got the "Official" cert. Microsoft is not the best when it comes to certification. Most certs are pretty crap, even the technical ones. When it comes to IT, alot of your "skill" is based on merit, and not on a piece of paper that says someone can do something. Ok, maybe I am being unfair on the ECDL, but most of the stuff it teaches is not used by most people.

Dos command line is a joke imo. If you want to properly learn the bash/sh command line in a quick manner, I have found this to be brilliant: http://www.pixelbeat.org/cmdline.html

You're not a programmer if you don't know squat about regular expressions. Oh, and don't think you know everything. I don't, you don't. Believing otherwise is stupidity.

I have seen many people get jobs out of ECDL type courses?

Not recently mind you, but I have seen many people get jobs from ECDL.

kowloon

I can type faster than I can write, but I can't type properly.
Wish I had learnt when I was in school as I will never be able to pick it up now.

partyatmygaff

Saila wrote: »

I suppose depends what you mean by proper, no we didnt learn dos/Linux and all that proper crap :rolleyes:

No that's not what I meant by proper. I amn't some smug elitist looking down on anyone who uses anything but hand coded Linux distributions as their main OS. And besides that, learning DOS wouldn't be of much use to you anyway seeing as it's been discontinued for almost an entire decade
By proper I meant useful computer skills that people really need. Things that would come to mind would be learning how to detect and avoid scams. Basic computer maintenance. Internet safety and effectively using the internet. Maybe even a small section dedicated to Office programs as well. They're useful skills that can be applied across the board with computers unlike the ECDL which caters only to Microsoft Office. What would be even better would be if they could have a small section on alternate OSes and browsers as the majority of people (Unfortunately) know nothing but Windows. Windows is brilliant, don't get me wrong but more and more devices are now running Linux or other OSes.

DOC09UNAM wrote: »

Wow, way to put down all the people that did ECDL.

I amn't putting them down or anything. I just dislike the way it's given so much importance when in fact it's pretty limited and teaches very little useful skills barring Microsoft Office. There's even a thread about it in Ranting and Raving. http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056110501

Saila

Naikon wrote: »

ECDL is complete and utter garbage. Seriously, I know people who just paid for it and got the "Official" cert. Microsoft is not the best when it comes to certification. Most certs are pretty crap, even the technical ones. When it comes to IT, alot of your "skill" is based on merit, and not on a piece of paper that says someone can do something. Ok, maybe I am being unfair on the ECDL, but most of the stuff it teaches is not used by most people.

Dos command line is a joke imo. If you want to properly learn the bash/sh command line in a quick manner, I have found this to be brilliant: http://www.pixelbeat.org/cmdline.html

You're not a programmer if you don't know squat about regular expressions. Oh, and don't think you know everything. I don't, you don't. Believing otherwise is stupidity.

newsfalsh my man, most dont do the ECDL to get into programming, its for how to use a computer at the most basic level. Everywhere is full of computers, people need to know how to use them.

Naikon

DOC09UNAM wrote: »

I have seen many people get jobs out of ECDL type courses?

Not recently mind you, but I have seen many people get jobs from ECDL.

Sorry to be a bit of a bastard, but I don't think these jobs are IT related? Good thing about learning vendor specific IT stuff, is that you aren't locked into their tools and mindset. This is why I don't like certification in general. The vendors try to lock you in to their products. This stance holds true for everything non Linux by the way. Certs show you can memorise stuff well. People need to focus less on the certs, more on actual experience imo.

partyatmygaff

Naikon wrote: »

Sorry to be a bit of a bastard, but I don't think these jobs are IT related? Good thing about learning vendor specific IT stuff, is that you aren't locked into their tools and mindset. This is why I don't like certification in general. The vendors try to lock you in to their products. This stance holds true for everything non Linux by the way. Certs show you can memorise stuff well. People need to focus less on the certs, more on actual experience imo.

Exactly what I was saying. Kids need to be taught general computer skills from an early age to be able to adapt to the ever changing world of computers. Programs change with the times but the general underlying skills do not.

Naikon

Saila wrote: »

newsfalsh my man, most dont do the ECDL to get into programming, its for how to use a computer at the most basic level. Everywhere is full of computers, people need to know how to use them.

I know, I should not expect everyone to be programming. That is a bogus propostition. Not everyone needs to work at that level, just like I don't need to know how to do xyz that someone else who knows how to. I suck in plenty of areas. Besides, I helped my parents recently to learn how to do the basics. Progressing well imo. You don't need a cert to learn how to use a computer. Just a computer and some time. Save for intro/basics I admit.

If you learn the concepts behind something, the implementation is a secondary concern. So Instead of asking crap like "How can we ensure pupils learn Office, ask "How can we teach kids to objectively learn what they feel meets their needs?". Lack Choice isn' the issue.

DOC09UNAM

Naikon wrote: »

Sorry to be a bit of a bastard, but I don't think these jobs are IT related? Good thing about learning vendor specific IT stuff, is that you aren't locked into their tools and mindset. This is why I don't like certification in general. The vendors try to lock you in to their products. This stance holds true for everything non Linux by the way. Certs show you can memorise stuff well. People need to focus less on the certs, more on actual experience imo.

Of course it's IT, not that I really care, because I didn't do it, it just seems a bit harsh to completely right it off, because you are above it.

"IT spans a wide variety of areas that include but are not limited to things such as processes, computer software, computer hardware, programming languages, and data constructs. In short, anything that renders data, information or perceived knowledge in any visual format whatsoever, via any multimedia distribution mechanism, is considered part of the domain space known as Information Technology (IT)."

partyatmygaff

DOC09UNAM wrote: »

Of course it's IT, not that I really care, because I didn't do it, it just seems a bit harsh to completely right it off, because you are above it.

We're not debating that it's IT. It is IT but a very limited approach to IT. It teaches people nothing more than Microsoft Office and provides them with skills that will be next to useless on anything but the version of Microsoft office that they learned on let alone another software package or OS. If people are taught useful, general computer skills they will be able to assimilate the rest through experience.

Naikon

DOC09UNAM wrote: »

Of course it's IT, not that I really care, because I didn't do it, it just seems a bit harsh to completely right it off, because you are above it.

"IT spans a wide variety of areas that include but are not limited to things such as processes, computer software, computer hardware, programming languages, and data constructs. In short, anything that renders data, information or perceived knowledge in any visual format whatsoever, via any multimedia distribution mechanism, is considered part of the domain space known as Information Technology (IT)."

Okay, I know my words are harsh, but I honestly believe people can get up to scratch in anything without certification. Persistence is the key. I am not above people just because I know stuff. Just giving my honest opinion about the ECDL and certs in general. These companies want to "certify" people to make a profit.

Bottom line. In general, they don't hold a candle to actual dedication and experimentation. Experimentation with stuff is key. Instead of teaching myopic vendor specific "technology" why not just teach people to evaluate what tech suits their needs best? No, because that won't generate money for shareholders at the end of the day.

Knowing the concepts is key. Which do you think is a "better" skill? Knowing how to implement some maths formula/algorithm in some lang, or how it works at a sufficiently deep non convoluted vendor level
so that you can't implement it in any way you like? Concepts > their implementation.

GTE

Id go for teaching them how to spell properly before typing.

I was having a facebook discussion with English students and I had better spelling. Im a sound engineering students so it doesnt make a huge amount of sense that I was better then the full on English degree people.

Saila

@the debate

we did the basics in Primary, navigation, browsing, saving to flopy discs
probably a bit of typing too.
In secondary we did the above, plus learned the menu bar, status bar, the general generic program stuff, like you say which gives you the platform
to build on with ms office and programs like that.

I also did a fas web design course, which included what was basically a city & guilds ECDL I think at the start, so there was a lot of overlap as I went through these different phases of my life. This is the way to do it, teach the general understnading and therefore the confidence needed to implement it with every program you come across.

Naikon

Saila wrote: »

@the debate

we did the basics in Primary, navigation, browsing, saving to flopy discs
probably a bit of typing too.
In secondary we did the above, plus learned the menu bar, status bar, the general generic program stuff, like you say which gives you the platform
to build on with ms office and programs like that.

I also did a fas web design course, which included what was basically a city & guilds ECDL I think at the start, so there was a lot of overlap as I went through these different phases of my life. This is the way to do it, teach the general understnading and therefore the confidence needed to implement it with every program you come across.

Sound advice. The only other "skill" I should mention is teach people to be inquisitive. If I was to ever offer a test for a cert, I would remove the multiple choice crap, put them in a dingy, damp and possibly stuffy room with a router/switch/app whatever, start deleting random config files/intentionally break stuff and see how they cope. Textbook answers aren't going to save you from the real world imo.

old_aussie

Looking at the posts on this forum, "Speelin and grammar" should be the main priority.

Touch typing could also be beneficial.