Has the time come for a mainstream party to become Anti-Europe?

musings

It seems to me that since this whole financial crisis has started, the European project is looking more and more like a silly charade protecting Franco-Germanic interests.

This has become most evident with the recent Euro-bonds idea, which to me seemed like a good idea and in the spirit of European integration and would strongly help us poor PIIGS yet today Sarcozy and Merkel ruled out this idea, but still advocate the idea of Tax harmonisation across europe (see: http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/1210/euro-business.html )

Is it now time for Fine Gael, Labour or Fianna Fail to become like the UK conservatives and decide that their new policy is a sovereign Ireland and strive to be like Switzerland or New Zealand, i.e a strong independent nation beholden to nobody?

later12

Isn't it time that this debate was ended?

There is no major political party taking an anti EU position, or even a skeptical position at all for that matter, because they are well aware that membership is in our interests, as is membership of the single European currency. Anyone who is still denying that would want to get their heads out of the sand, or An Phoblacht, tbh.

musings

later10 wrote: »

Isn't it time that this debate was ended?

There is no major political party taking an anti EU position, or even a skeptical position at all for that matter, because they are well aware that membership is in our interests,

Glad to see a Parisian acknowledge that membership is in their interest, however I was more concerned at the Irish perspective....

later12

musings wrote: »

Glad to see a Parisian acknowledge that membership is in their interest, however I was more concerned at the Irish perspective....

I'm not Parisian. I'm Irish. I emigrated to Paris for employment when the Irish economy suffered its most recent toilet flushing; I'm pretty happy to be a European, and so too, I imagine, are a hell of a lot of other young Irish people in Paris, Berlin, London, and so on.

Scofflaw

musings wrote: »

It seems to me that since this whole financial crisis has started, the European project is looking more and more like a silly charade protecting Franco-Germanic interests.

This has become most evident with the recent Euro-bonds idea, which to me seemed like a good idea and in the spirit of European integration and would strongly help us poor PIIGS yet today Sarcozy and Merkel ruled out this idea, but still advocate the idea of Tax harmonisation across europe (see: http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/1210/euro-business.html )

Is it now time for Fine Gael, Labour or Fianna Fail to become like the UK conservatives and decide that their new policy is a sovereign Ireland and strive to be like Switzerland or New Zealand, i.e a strong independent nation beholden to nobody?

In times of crisis, the tendency is for national interests to come to the fore. If anything, that should serve as something of a reminder of how much the EU, and being in the EU, is in our interests, since without the EU, the dominance of European politics by the same large states would be a perpetual and very much stronger feature of our existence.

Given Ireland's small size, reliance on other markets, lack of natural resources, apparent anti-entrepreneurial culture, and rather inbred politics, the idea of Ireland as a "strong independent nation beholden to nobody" remains where it has always been in our history - an inspiring idea, the attempt to achieve which almost invariably involves an impressive degree of slaughter and/or economic misery before the country falls back into being a parochial appendage of the UK. The majority of the electorate appears to be aware of this, which makes the adoption of an anti-EU stance by a major party fairly unlikely.

cordially,
Scofflaw

GarlicBread

musings wrote: »

It seems to me that since this whole financial crisis has started, the European project is looking more and more like a silly charade protecting Franco-Germanic interests.

This has become most evident with the recent Euro-bonds idea, which to me seemed like a good idea and in the spirit of European integration and would strongly help us poor PIIGS yet today Sarcozy and Merkel ruled out this idea, but still advocate the idea of Tax harmonisation across europe (see: http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/1210/euro-business.html )

Is it now time for Fine Gael, Labour or Fianna Fail to become like the UK conservatives and decide that their new policy is a sovereign Ireland and strive to be like Switzerland or New Zealand, i.e a strong independent nation beholden to nobody?

I think economically we need to break away fairly lively, mainly because the debt is too much. Socially we should stay apart of the union, because this is the core fundamental. Having the european court of human rights at our disposal etc etc is a handy thing.

Sinn Fein are a major player in irish politics and they have an anti europe agenda. FF,FG and labour are too scared ****less to consider such things.

Forget about Switzerland, think of Norway instead.

GarlicBread

Scofflaw wrote: »

lack of natural resources

Lies, we have hundreds of billions of euros worth of oil and natural gas that is off our western coast.

later12

GarlicBread wrote: »

Lies, we have hundreds of billions of euros worth of oil and natural gas that is off our western coast.

Oh...Hundreds of billions? And I suppose you have a source for that?

I think economically we need to break away fairly lively, mainly because the debt is too much

What, exactly, do you think is attractive to investors about a country which suddenly pursues a policy of outright default on its sovereign and corporate debt?

GarlicBread

later10 wrote: »

What, exactly, do you think is attractive to investors about a country which suddenly pursues a policy of outright default on its sovereign and corporate debt?

Theres nothing attractive about this place as it stands. Investors should be secondary.

Are you gonna help pay back the over 300 billion bank debt?

I think i couldnt give a rats ass about paying back any of it, its simply not mine.

View

musings wrote: »

Is it now time for Fine Gael, Labour or Fianna Fail to become like the UK conservatives and decide that their new policy is a sovereign Ireland and strive to be like Switzerland or New Zealand, i.e a strong independent nation beholden to nobody?

The UK is a major EU state. Ireland is a minor one.

If the UK can transform the EU into an inter-governmental structure that suits it fine as it can then dispense with all this "helping other member states" stuff and just play for its own narrow interests.

On the other hand, Ireland - like most smaller EU states - has traditionally regarded the Commission and other EU institutions (e.g. the ECJ) as being a vital counter-weight to the natural tendency of larger member states to dominate proceedings.

later12

GarlicBread wrote: »

Theres nothing attractive about this place as it stands. Investors should be secondary.

It's one of the most competitive places in Western Europe to do business right now; Ireland's unit labour costs have been slashed and look set to fall further with public spending and minimum wage levels both falling. Traded exports are still doing well.

Now I'll ask you again... what is attractive about a country that suddenly pursues a policy of outright default on both its sovereign and corporate debt?

Are you gonna help pay back the over 300 billion bank debt?

Where are you getting this figure for bank debt? Surely not Vincent Browne?

PomBear

is no-one going to differentiate between being a Euro-skeptic and being anti-Europe?

later12

PomBear wrote: »

is no-one going to differentiate between being a Euro-skeptic and being anti-Europe?

.

later10 wrote: »

There is no major political party taking an anti EU position, or even a skeptical position at all for that matter, because they are well aware that membership is in our interests

Scofflaw

GarlicBread wrote: »

Lies, we have hundreds of billions of euros worth of oil and natural gas that is off our western coast.

We have estimates that there might be, but nothing more than a gas field slightly smaller than Kinsale to show for it - and no gas even brought ashore from that, what with one thing and another.

Notional oil and gas that nobody has actually found will hardly pay the bills, and on present form it would be at least 15-20 after actually finding any of it that it might finally start making money.

Still, feel free to indulge yourself in whatever visions of magical money trees suit you best.

regards,
Scofflaw

musings

We have lots of natural resources...
1. Massive fishing resource (strangled by the EU)
2. Massive Agriculture Resource (which the EU's CAP has made totally uncompetitive and subsidy dependant)
3. if this renewable stuff can make money we also have a massive wind nd wave resource(not convinced of that though)
4. Lots of scenery, waves and cliffs for tourism

Fratton Fred

The European project was right.when it was fishing out millions in grants, so why.is it so wrong now.

The anti Europe feeling in Europe does sound a bit like "we've had all your money, now you have nothing to give us, so piss off".
The EU still is Ireland best way forward.

musings

later10 wrote: »

Now I'll ask you again... what is attractive about a country that suddenly pursues a policy of outright default on both its sovereign and corporate debt?

Well its actually quite attractive to new investors as a country free of Anglo Irish bank's debt will be well able to pay back new bonds without being crippled by repaying money that went into a black hole.

Your policy is the one the current government is following and what has that got us? The same credit rating as Libya!!! thats what

later12

musings wrote: »

a country free of Anglo Irish bank's debt will be well able to pay back new bonds without being crippled by repaying money that went into a black hole.

Hang on, surely you aren't saying we don't pay back the current bonds; we'll pay the next ones instead!?

When you fail on your senior corporate or sovereign debt you send out a signal that says 'we cannot be trusted'.

Anyway, in many sectors of the manufacturing economy, Ireland is actually already becoming very attractive to foreign investment. A widespread, sudden and outright default would destroy that investor potential.

Your policy is the one the current government is following and what has that got us? The same credit rating as Libya!!! thats what

My policy? My preferred policy is not what the Government have done nor intend to do in the immediate future.

The credit ratings you refer to exist for a very good reason. And if we did as many people are suggesting, and left the Euro, we would be harking nostalgically back to the days when our credit rating was as high as that of *Libya's*

IngazZagni

I don't agree with the OP. It is because of the EU that we got this wealth in the first place and it is because of IRELAND that we are losing a lot of it, not Europe. Remember that a lot of these ideas of harmonizing tax across the EU are simply that, ideas that won't happen. They suggested to raise our Corp tax but sure we have veto power on that anyway, we control it.

Of course Germany and France will try and do things that suit them, it's called economic competition, the problem goes back to our current Government that seem to be complacent on anything the EU does when really they should be fighting for reform that suits Ireland, not Germany.

I'm proud to be an EU citizen and I want it to stay like that forever!

musings

later10 wrote: »

Hang on, surely you aren't saying we don't pay back the current bonds; we'll pay the next ones instead!?

When you fail on your senior corporate or sovereign debt you send out a signal that says 'we cannot be trusted'.

Yes that is what I'm saying, why are we repaying bonds for a dead bank?

and lets be clear...Anglo was a private bank grew on free and easy ECB credit. Credit that was given out recklessly

And now we have to pick up the tab?

We would pay back new bonds, bonds used to build infrastructure, schools etc. Things that give a return. Financial markets work on our future ability to repay, not your past record. Its not like personal banking

musings

later10 wrote: »

Hang on, surely you aren't saying we don't pay back the current bonds; we'll pay the next ones instead!?

When you fail on your senior corporate or sovereign debt you send out a signal that says 'we cannot be trusted'.

Anyway, in many sectors of the manufacturing economy, Ireland is actually already becoming very attractive to foreign investment. A widespread, sudden and outright default would destroy that investor potential.


My policy? My preferred policy is not what the Government have done nor intend to do in the immediate future.

The credit ratings you refer to exist for a very good reason. And if we did as many people are suggesting, and left the Euro, we would be harking nostalgically back to the days when our credit rating was as high as that of *Libya's*

Actually, I've just read your post again. Were you campaigning for Lisbon at any stage??? Because it looks like the same scaremongering nonsense that that campaign went on with. And look where Lisbon got us...

later12

No, in fact I didn't even vote in favour of Lisbon because I didn't see the need for it. The above is not scare mongering. I don't care if you don't believe it, if you have a problem with it at least debate the points instead of trying to portray me as something.

IngazZagni

musings wrote: »

Actually, I've just read your post again. Were you campaigning for Lisbon at any stage??? Because it looks like the same scaremongering nonsense that that campaign went on with. And look where Lisbon got us...

If we voted no to Lisbon the second time we would be in the exact same place, it had nothing to do with where we are now. Besides the financial crises hit us hardest between the time we voted no and yes.

GarlicBread

Scofflaw wrote: »

We have estimates that there might be, but nothing more than a gas field slightly smaller than Kinsale to show for it - and no gas even brought ashore from that, what with one thing and another.

Notional oil and gas that nobody has actually found will hardly pay the bills, and on present form it would be at least 15-20 after actually finding any of it that it might finally start making money.

Still, feel free to indulge yourself in whatever visions of magical money trees suit you best.

regards,
Scofflaw

So, shell are only hanging around to look at the scenery? Or maybe they are deluded by notional oil and gas?

Nah, they are there because they struck gold, both in the size of the field and the coruption of the government.

RandomName2

PomBear wrote: »

is no-one going to differentiate between being a Euro-skeptic and being anti-Europe?

Yah; there's a difference between wanting to be out of Europe and being totally non-critical of all EU policies. As far as the major parties go, we know that if the Consillium makes noises about jumping, that whoever is in power will produce a manifesto asking 'how high?'.

It didn't seem to have been always this way - that although it was undignified, and morally suspect, that Ireland was in years gone by able to obtain significant favourable deals within the EU. Now, no party seems to want to play hard-ball

Quote the Irish government (over the space of 3 days)
"We are not even discussing a bailout, the issue never came up. We are financed into the third quarter of 2011, there is no need for any bailout. We're bailed out - there's no way we could possibly function without it."

---

Without a mainstream party being even vaguely euro-skeptic there is no way for those who are even vaguely euro-skeptic to have any democratic voice. It allows people, like in the yes side of Lisbon, to claim that there is nobody critical of EU policy, for they have no representation. Representation is quite an important thing... it's sort of what the freedom of the Western world is predicated on (no taxation without representation).

----

In relation to national resources: don't forget the sugar industry!!!

conorhal

I thinks so. I could respect the institution when it was the EC and it's primary focus was economic co-operation, but now it has morphed into a monstrous power hungry leviathan with it's tendrils slowly invading every aspect of our lives, I think it's time to slay the monster before it becomes the unaccountable super-state it clearly aspires to be (if it's not too late already).
There is a worrying trend amongst the political classes that refuses to accomodate any critisism of the EU.
When you have the EU president telling David Cameron that it is 'anti-European' to even question it's demand for a 6% budget rise in the face of a massive recession amongst many of it's member states (God forbid the gravy might get a little thin in Brussels) you have to worry. Fair balls to the man that he refused to be cowed and instead stood up and asked the President "I've had to cut the policing budget in England, does that mean that I'm anti-police?"
The comission feel that the greatest threat to Europe at the moment is nationalism.... or would that be the greatest threat to their superstatist policies?

Corsendonk

musings wrote: »

We have lots of natural resources...
1. Massive fishing resource (strangled by the EU)
2. Massive Agriculture Resource (which the EU's CAP has made totally uncompetitive and subsidy dependant)
3. if this renewable stuff can make money we also have a massive wind nd wave resource(not convinced of that though)
4. Lots of scenery, waves and cliffs for tourism

Your point 2, have you got anymore details than a broad statement?

NSNO

Note: I am pro-Europe.


I feel that Europe has become the sacred cow of national politics. The vast majority of people in Ireland and most other European nations are pro-Europe. The European Union has brought unprecedented peace and prosperity to the people of Europe. Who would've thought in 1900, or 1918, or 1945 that Europe would, by the 1990's, become a beacon of peace, equality, justice and democracy in the world. Would people 50 years ago have believe that by the new millennium that Europe's previously bitterly divided countries, separated by old hates, would have come together in a previously unseen alliance and friendship? It is clear that on the whole, that the European Union as an institution has done so much good for us.

Yet, like every other institution, government or organisation managed by people, it has its flaws. Like any other government, it makes unpopular decisions and, in some cases, decisions that are just downright incorrect. If it were a national government making these mistakes or these decisions that the people don't agree with, they would be attacked by the opposition in their country. In a healthy democracy, all parties are committed to the legitimacy of the state so that is never an issue. The only issues are the political issues surrounding the policies being pursued by the government.

Europe doesn't have this situation. The main divisions in European politics are not between liberals, greens, conservatives and socialists - they are between pro-Europe and anti-Europe parties. The anti-Europe parties oppose every single European initiative, not because it is a bad policy but because they hate Europe. This means that if the pro-Europe parties want to get anything done that they have to support every European initiative that goes to the people, regardless of whether they really agree with the policy.

Just look at the debate surrounding the Lisbon Treaty. Did the people opposing the Treaty really oppose the Treaty or did they just oppose Europe? The Treaty was badly needed to reform the European structures and really there wasn't any debate over that from the pro-Europe parties. Yet the anti-Europe parties opposed it on the grounds that the Treaty would be bad for Ireland and Europe - downright lies. They did this in order to further their own nationalist Ireland agendas. They forced the pro-Europe parties down to their level.

It is as if the pro-Europe parties are afraid to oppose any European policies because they know if they defeat one, even though they are acting in the best interests of the European Union, that their actions will give strength to the anti-Europe movement.

I think this mentality has led to certain European institutions becoming increasingly undemocratic and bureaucratic and are failing to work in the interests of the European people.

The Eurozone has serious structural issues. The EMU and ECB are in dire need of reform. But what would happen if the likes of FG or Lab opposed a European policy? The people in the Brussels would look at us as just another wacko nationalist country out to serve our own interests to Europe's detriment when that simply isn't the case.

I seriously believe that our mainstream parties have to step out and say that they are pro-Europe and pro-integration but that it has to be done in the right way for Ireland and for Europe.

But I have real doubts that this can be achieved while there are still doubts among people that the EU should exist at all.

Scofflaw

GarlicBread wrote: »

So, shell are only hanging around to look at the scenery? Or maybe they are deluded by notional oil and gas?

Nah, they are there because they struck gold, both in the size of the field and the coruption of the government.

They've struck one reasonably profitable small gas field on reasonable terms. A field smaller than Kinsale - which is itself a small field by world standards. Everything else is, thus far, just 'estimates', I'm afraid.

You're entitled to your opinion, but you're not entitled to your own facts.

regards,
Scofflaw

later12

RandomName2 wrote: »

Without a mainstream party being even vaguely euro-skeptic there is no way for those who are even vaguely euro-skeptic to have any democratic voice.

No democratic voice? You're contradicting yourself.

If the euro skeptics don't have a political position it's because of democratic choice. Take a look at the Libertas European election results, for example. People aren't particularly interested.

meglome

musings wrote: »

We have lots of natural resources...
1. Massive fishing resource (strangled by the EU)

I suppose you'll have figures to back this up? And before you go looking for them I already know what the figures are and you're talking out of your behind.

musings wrote: »

2. Massive Agriculture Resource (which the EU's CAP has made totally uncompetitive and subsidy dependant)

Since when have we ever had a good agricultural sector?

musings wrote: »

3. if this renewable stuff can make money we also have a massive wind nd wave resource(not convinced of that though)

So how much have we made from this?

musings wrote: »

4. Lots of scenery, waves and cliffs for tourism

Pity we got so expensive that a lot of people stopped coming.

Scofflaw

Pity we got so expensive that a lot of people stopped coming.

We used to go to Kerry, but for most of the last decade it's actually been cheaper to go abroad.

cordially,
Scofflaw

fontanalis

meglome wrote: »

I suppose you'll have figures to back this up? And before you go looking for them I already know what the figures are and you're talking out of your behind.



Since when have we ever had a good agricultural sector?



So how much have we made from this?



Pity we got so expensive that a lot of people stopped coming.

Well said, the sad thing is EU membership could have been used to Irish advantages instead too many people behaved like teenagers with their first taste of money (credit/debt). Also regarding fishing, there was a lot going on in the 80's but it wasn't the saviour of the economy. It's very regional and seasonal.
I'd say there is very little we paid for ourselves to show we had a boom in the country, aren't a lot of good things we have EU funded.

musings

meglome wrote: »

I suppose you'll have figures to back this up? And before you go looking for them I already know what the figures are and you're talking out of your behind.

Since when have we ever had a good agricultural sector?

So how much have we made from this?

Pity we got so expensive that a lot of people stopped coming.

Kindly, show us the figures about which "I'm talking out of my behind"
Firstly, My point was regarding natural resources of the country, not about the use currently being made of them. One poster here said we've very few resources.

In relation to fishing we have a far larger territory of waters than our EU fishing quota allows us actually use...this is one reason why Norway is staying out of the EU. You know this being so well up on figures obviously.

In relation to Agriculture, we have the second lowest cost of milk production in the world second only to New Zealand, due to our rainy grassy climate. New Zealand has doubled production since 1990, we have stayed static in that time due to EU quotas.

In relation to tourism, I don't know what use your comments are. Can we not adjust our prices?

jimmycrackcorm

musings wrote: »

We have lots of natural resources...
1. Massive fishing resource (strangled by the EU)
2. Massive Agriculture Resource (which the EU's CAP has made totally uncompetitive and subsidy dependant)
3. if this renewable stuff can make money we also have a massive wind nd wave resource(not convinced of that though)
4. Lots of scenery, waves and cliffs for tourism

We had all that stuff before joining the EU and what did it do for us?

meglome

musings wrote: »

Kindly, show us the figures about which "I'm talking out of my behind"
Firstly, My point was regarding natural resources of the country, not about the use currently being made of them. One poster here said we've very few resources.

But we have very few natural resources. We have fish and we have the potential for some oil and gas.

There is the fish info. (Show tabular data at the bottom)
We're catching more fish now than before we joined the EU, as the EU fund our fishing industry. They paid for our fishery protections vessels.

And so far from our Corrib gas field we have taken exactly 0 gas ashore.

musings wrote: »

In relation to fishing we have a far larger territory of waters than our EU fishing quota allows us actually use...this is one reason why Norway is staying out of the EU. You know this being so well up on figures obviously.

We do and fish stocks are are down, should we keep going until there is nothing left. There are two reasons Norway is staying out of EU... Oil and Gas. Neither of which we currently have in large quantities.

musings wrote: »

In relation to Agriculture, we have the second lowest cost of milk production in the world second only to New Zealand, due to our rainy grassy climate. New Zealand has doubled production since 1990, we have stayed static in that time due to EU quotas.

Great so we have this fabulous resources that no one in the EU needs as they have their own.

musings wrote: »

In relation to tourism, I don't know what use your comments are. Can we not adjust our prices?

Well the prices are coming down. Pity it took large falls in tourism for it to happen.

The problem here is we have never had a resources rich country. We lost more fish to other countries before we joined the EU. And our agriculture wasn't in the past what you'd call efficient. You can keeping saying otherwise but it won't make it so.

K-9

New Zealand has had great success in Agriculture but they achieved it through large ranch type farms and the demise of the small farm. The small farmers tend to work on the large farms now. So, we could follow their example but it has its downsides too.

musings

Its almost a year since I asked the question about the need for an anti-europe party in this country on this thread. At the time, most people were of the opinion that we needed our wise european big brothers watching over us and that I was a bit nuts for my anti-european views.

However given all that has gone on in Europe in the past year....have opinions of the posters on this thread changed/hardened/softened?

All rants are appreciated....

thebman

Reading that SF are the anti-EU party, I believe this stance has changed TBH. They are now more questioning EU policy than outright condemning it as their popularity is starting to rise IMO to attract a more mainstream vote I imagine.

That kind of tells you everything you need to know about an anti-EU party. I think no party will ever make to be in a coalition with an anti-EU agenda. Questioning them and saying maybe this way would be better maybe but a lets leave the Euro or a lets go it alone agenda will never win much support. For one thing, it is too extreme a change for most people to accept IMO.

musings

I would think that if FF ditched Míchael Martin and adopted a stance on Europe similar to the Tories in the UK, it could be a platform for a renaissance of the party.

I think that given the rise in popularity of Eurosceptic parties that we have seen in countries across Europe in the last year they could find themselves riding a eurosceptic wave.

It would also be a great way of hammering the government for not standing up to our masters and would also get the nationalist vote.

They would have to ditch all of the old faces first before they could credibly achieve this....which wouldn't be hard given that most of them out of jobs

thebman

Better to just split and form a new party TBH. If anyone even associated with FF did that at present, it would be presumed (and probably correctly so) that it was a populist move to get some support for a new party.

I just think it needs a new party that does that kind of thing, maybe Libertas could become a proper party.

mlumley

View wrote: »

The UK is a major EU state. Ireland is a minor one.

If the UK can transform the EU into an inter-governmental structure that suits it fine as it can then dispense with all this "helping other member states" stuff and just play for its own narrow interests.

On the other hand, Ireland - like most smaller EU states - has traditionally regarded the Commission and other EU institutions (e.g. the ECJ) as being a vital counter-weight to the natural tendency of larger member states to dominate proceedings[/SIZE].[/QUOTE]

You mean like Germany and France? Arnt they dominating things already, secret meetings to decide among themselves what to do, without asking what any one else thinks.

Can you imagine what would happen if they made us give up our tax rates? Who would those companies go to? Yeah thats right, Germany and France, where would leave us.......even broker and longer dole lines.

meglome

musings wrote: »

Its almost a year since I asked the question about the need for an anti-europe party in this country on this thread. At the time, most people were of the opinion that we needed our wise european big brothers watching over us and that I was a bit nuts for my anti-european views.

However given all that has gone on in Europe in the past year....have opinions of the posters on this thread changed/hardened/softened?

All rants are appreciated....

The problem with easily 90% of the anti-EU posting in there is it's just not true. It's perfectly fine to be sceptical of the EU but it would also be nice to get some basic facts correct.

In the last year the EU have gone from charging us interest on the money they loaned us to giving us no interest loans. Personally I think we're getting off lightly since we created this mess ourselves as a nation.

People need to stop looking at the EU as some sort of standalone entity, we and the other member states are the EU. I haven't seen you post one thing that would make we want to be anti-EU or see the need for an anti-EU party.

vellocet

The European project has definitly soured in Ireland over the past couple of years. From the bullyboy tactics over Lisbon, being forced to socialise German bank losses and then being made a pariah in Europe, it leaves a bad taste.

I certainly think there is space for a more Eurosceptical view in the mainstream as all the major parties have gone totally native and spineless.

Zombrex

musings wrote: »

It seems to me that since this whole financial crisis has started, the European project is looking more and more like a silly charade protecting Franco-Germanic interests.

This has become most evident with the recent Euro-bonds idea, which to me seemed like a good idea and in the spirit of European integration and would strongly help us poor PIIGS yet today Sarcozy and Merkel ruled out this idea, but still advocate the idea of Tax harmonisation across europe (see: http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/1210/euro-business.html )

Is it now time for Fine Gael, Labour or Fianna Fail to become like the UK conservatives and decide that their new policy is a sovereign Ireland and strive to be like Switzerland or New Zealand, i.e a strong independent nation beholden to nobody?

You're joking right?

Europe just bailed us out of one of the worst home grown financial crisises this country has every produced. We need Europe far far more than they need us. You think if you go to Brussels these days they are thanking us for our continued involvement in the EU to protecting Franco-German interests? Pull the other one.

Would you enjoy being a broke backwards insignificant country out side of Europe?

vellocet

Zombrex wrote: »

You're joking right?

Europe just bailed us out of one of the worst home grown financial crisises this country has every produced. We need Europe far far more than they need us. You think if you go to Brussels these days they are thanking us for our continued involvement in the EU to protecting Franco-German interests? Pull the other one.

Would you enjoy being a broke backwards insignificant country out side of Europe?

And a major factor in the crisis was the Irish government doing what they were told and not allowing German banks make a loss on their Anglo bond holdings...

A political party that believed in the concept of Europe but used the word 'no' once in a while in Brussels would be onto a rich vein of support.

Mr.Micro

vellocet wrote: »

The European project has definitly soured in Ireland over the past couple of years. From the bullyboy tactics over Lisbon, being forced to socialise German bank losses and then being made a pariah in Europe, it leaves a bad taste.

I certainly think there is space for a more Eurosceptical view in the mainstream as all the major parties have gone totally native and spineless.

Where would we be without Europe? Pegged to Sterling like before?

If we were made a pariah in Europe, it was our own doing like it or not.

JustinDee

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Where would we be without Europe? Pegged to Sterling like before?

If we were made a pariah in Europe, it was our own doing like it or not.

We'd have an antiquated infrastructure also.
People tend to either forget or not have the slightest clue of what Ireland was like before.

For an example of how it was at the turn of the millenium, watch Charlie McCreevy rebuking warnings by the EU on Ireland's intentional inflating of its own economy and of its lack of economic regulation. Can be seen on Reeling In The Years 2001 and 2002 episodes, for example.

As usual, Paddy wants everything for nothing and flies in the face of consequence when it goes belly up.

Zombrex

vellocet wrote: »

And a major factor in the crisis was the Irish government doing what they were told and not allowing German banks make a loss on their Anglo bond holdings...

They did what they were told my Merrill Lynch and the heads of the banks. Pressure from Germany had little to do with it.

vellocet

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Where would we be without Europe? Pegged to Sterling like before?

If we were made a pariah in Europe, it was our own doing like it or not.

Where did I say we should leave Europe?

This is my point. Anyone who has any criticism of the way the EU functions must want us to leave the EU outright. That is the dynmaic that a party should rise to challenge as the narrative that came out of Lisbon was toxic.

vellocet

Zombrex wrote: »

They did what they were told my Merrill Lynch and the heads of the banks. Pressure from Germany had little to do with it.

Hold up. Lets be clear, I am not blaming anyone other than the Irish banks and regulatory / political framework.

But one of the reasons we kept Anglo afloat was at the request of Ms Merkel. That is a direct transfer of wealth from the Irish civic sector to the German business classes. Then we get hammered over struggling to pay for it? That is not the Social Europe we signed up to.