Mr Kitty O'Shea - Captain Willie O'Shea - the Most Vilified Man in Ireland - Why ??

CDfm

His wife's name was Katie (nee Wood) and he was a Captain in the Army and an aspiring stud farm owner when they married, she 22 and he 27.

Both from priveleged backgrounds , her father was a baronet and chaplain to Queen Caroline and she was an heiress. His father a lawyer made his living from liquidating encumbered estates.

Her uncle was a Lord Chancellor Baron Hatherley and her brother became Field Marshall Sir Evelyn Wood

Aunt Ben’s death at the age of ninety-eight moved Willie O’Shea to action. Katie had assiduously cut out her siblings (though they took her to court over the inheritance) and, as an independently wealthy woman, was planning a new life with Parnell. Willie had nothing more to gain. Money and personal advancement were always his primary objectives. Few people trusted him and most of his schemes failed – Galway certainly didn’t want him. But he succeeded in destroying the fragile happiness Katie found with Parnell, playing the part of deceived husband and representing all that was upstanding in Victorian morality. Less turbulent than tedious for the most part, Katie’s life was hidebound by convention except in one particular: the inconvenient fact that she already had a husband when she began living with Parnell as his wife.

So what was she really like - she called him King and he called her Queen

Sir George Lewis, Parnell’s solicitor, who had just successfully defended Parnell in The Times trial. Lewis described her as “a very charming lady but an impossible one”

She fired him and what Piggott ,the forger failed to do in destroying Parnell ( pronounced Parn'l and not ParNELL) happened.
http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/the_tls/article4213535.ece

Called Katie by her friends, Kitty was slang for prostitute, and mud stuck and it was what she was called by her detractors .

She was not the first foreign woman to so influence Irelands future, Diarmuid McMurrough deposed King of Leinster invited the Normans into Ireland on the back of "kidnapping" the wife of the Prince of Briefne, Dervorgilla.

Some accounts have her eloping and bringing her furniture and cattle (dowry) with her.

Tiernan O’Rourke,Prince of Briefne and her husband went ape and raised an army.

http://www.historyireland.com/volumes/volume11/issue4/features/?id=290

So , Willie O'Shea's reaction was probably predictable.

He had a reasonably comfortable upbringing and attended Cardinal Newmans Catholic College for a period( he exasperated Newman who refered to him as "That O'Shea) before going to Trinity and then into the Army.

So who were Willie & Katie, and what of their family (ies) & what were their lives like. ???

MarchDub

CDfm wrote: »

She was not the first foreign woman to so influence Irelands future, Diarmuid McMurrough deposed King of Leinster invited the Normans into Ireland on the back of "kidnapping" the wife of the Prince of Briefne, Dervorgilla.

Some accounts have her eloping and bringing her furniture and cattle (dowry) with her.

Tiernan O’Rourke,Prince of Briefne and her husband went ape and raised an army.

Why are you calling Dervorgilla 'foreign'? She was a sound Irish woman who threw over her husband - and then McMurrough - and ended up in a nunnery where she must have regaled all with her life story.

CDfm

MarchDub wrote: »

Why are you calling Dervorgilla 'foreign'?

My mistake - Meath you say :eek:

MarchDub

CDfm wrote: »

My mistake - Meath you say :eek:

Yeah - foreign enough I suppose!:D

Anyway, thanks for the link to the Times review. I don't know that new book so I'm not sure what's in it but Katharine O'Shea's book and her own accounts of the events I do know. I find her a sympathetic figure.

The whole mess of the Parnell divorce had huge repercussions for Ireland. O'Shea's claim that he just found out about the relationship prior to filing for divorce doesn't hold up. Parnell and Katharine had 3 children together by then. Parnell's mistake - IMO - was that he handled it badly within the Irish Party. He thought he had a private life that he could keep to himself. Didn't turn out that way for him.

Parnell's [really Home Rule's] enemies within the Catholic Church, the English Conservative Party - and some Liberals - all combined to muster a fake outrage at his private life. They destroyed him - and Home Rule.

Everyone comes away with blood on their hands. And so far the historic record hasn't yielded up why O'Shea acted when he did. But there is endless speculation.

CDfm

Thanks MD.

You are right - Willie O'Shea comes across to me as a bit of a hustler and probably would have got on well in Ireland during the celtic tiger years.

So what I will try to do is take a sympathetic look at them but where to start.

The first thing to do would be to refer to her as Katie and not Kitty and Willie's life and those around them.

As for Dervorgilla, she comes accross as a brazen hussey with the morals of a Viking and its about time her duplicity was exposed as the real cause of the Norman invasion. She was from Meath and Parnells constituency was Meath - coincidence - I think not :pac:

CDfm

An old saying i "He would try the patience of a saint" -well Willie actually did - St John Henry Newman as an early student in his Catholic University.

The beginning
The Catholic University opened its doors on the feast of St Malachy, 3 November 1854. On that day the names of seventeen students were entered on the register; the first name entered was that of Daniel O'Connell, grandson of the Liberator. The following Sunday, to a grand total of four officers and fifteen students, Newman gave an address entitled 'What are we here for?' Conscious of the small number with which they were beginning their great endeavour, he prophesied that when they were old they would look back with great pride and pleasure to St Malachy's Day, 1854.
Newman was a great believer in the idea that his students should stay in independent, self-supporting halls or colleges in small groups under a dean and private tutors. Each house was to have its own chapel and common table. With this purpose in mind the university opened with three houses: 86 St Stephen's Green, with was known as St Patrick's or University House, under the care of Rev. Dr Michael Flannery; 16 Harcourt Street, known as St Lawrence's under the care of Rev. Dr James Quinn, who also had his school there; and Newman's own house, 6 Harcourt Street, known as St Mary's under Newman's personal supervision.

The early students
Of the eight original students in Newman's own home, two were Irish, two English, two Scottish and two French. Among them were a French viscount, and Irish baronet (Sir Reginald Barnewall), the son of a French countess, the grandson of a Scottish marquis, and the son of an English lord. The rector felt that this was a good start and one that should raise the tone and image of the university and attract others. Later were added to his care two Belgian princes and a Polish count.





The one native-born middle-class Irishman to be admitted to Newman's house was the sixteen-year-old only son of a solicitor from Limerick by the name of O'Shea. 'That O'Shea' as Newman called the inmate of his front drawing-room, lasted for half a year only, but half way through that period he was causing the rector much trouble. 'My youths, all through that O'Shea, or rather in the person of O'Shea, are giving me trouble - and I don't know how I possibly can stand another year. I think he must go at the end of the session.' The troublesome student left and went to Trinity instead, but his mischief-making was far from over. It might be said that the rector had unerringly recognised the boy was to be father to the man; for as Newman lay dying in August 1890, his former student, Captain William O'Shea, was at the centre of the divorce scandal that was to destroy the political career of Charles Stewart Parnell.

http://www.ucd.ie/president/universityhistory/

Following the education of a gentleman and mixing with the nobility in the Catholic University and Trinity, Willie eventually joined the army which was more about making connections for later in life.

jonniebgood1

CDfm wrote: »

An old saying i "He would try the patience of a saint" -well Willie actually did - St John Henry Newman as an early student in his Catholic University.

O'Shea may come across shallow to put it mildly in regard of his questionable motives in the timing of his seeking divorce. On the other hand, He did also as a public representative speak on behalf of Land reforms in Ireland. His mistake (like Parnells) was to mix public and private life. He is perhaps given more burden of responsibility than is due as the smears on Parnell were contrived by others for their own interests (including those in the Home rule party).

Reference verse 4 "betrayal".

Come gather round me, Parnellites; by W.B Yeats (1938):

Come gather round me, Parnellites,
And praise our chosen man;
Stand upright on your legs awhile,
Stand upright while you can,
For soon we lie where he is laid,
And he is underground;
Come fill up all those glasses
And pass the bottle round.

And here's a cogent reason,
And I have many more,
He fought the might of England
And saved the Irish poor,
Whatever good a farmer's got
He brought it all to pass;
And here's another reason,
That parnell loved a lass.

And here's a final reason,
He was of such a kind
Every man that sings a song
Keeps Parnell in his mind.
For Parnell was a proud man,
No prouder trod the ground,
And a proud man's a lovely man,
So pass the bottle round.

The Bishops and the party
That tragic story made,
A husband that had sold his wife
And after that betrayed;
But stories that live longest
Are sung above the glass,
And Parnell loved his country
And parnell loved his lass.

CDfm

I have read extracts from Hansard where O'Shea spoke on the Land Acts especially on evicted tenants. I was on of those procedural things that has a bearing on the law and he definately had a good grasp of parlimentary procedure and skills- sufficient to have evicted tenants included in the Act. So he was not stupid.

He also developed clientism with the Fenian elements. As an army captain he had access to society in England and could develop friendships with the Liberals.

There is also his bizarre behaviour at the Kilmainham Treaty and I wonder if Parnell wasn't sending him of on wild goose chases at times to facilitate his assignations with Katie.

It clearly wasn't a menage a trois and there is going to be some element where Willie was the unwitting dupe in all of this and Charles and Katie the puppetmasters.

I wonder what Willies children thought.

EDIT - In fairness, WB Yeats" Parnellites" poem above may be an excuse for his own behavior and the tolerance of his wife George must have been stretched -he was an old codger .It could be retitled "But George, lots of famous people have affairs, Parnell did" He was on holiday in France when he died with Edith Shackleton Heald his lover accompanying them. Maybe George got the last laugh as there is doubt as to whether he is buried in Drumcliffe and not another man who died there Alfred Hollis.

CDfm

Here is a nice summary from a genealogy researcher descended from on of Katie's maid's.

Nothing is known at present of how Lizzie began her life “up the back stairs”, only a few tantalising glimpses from family anecdotes. The quest began back about 1950 with a remark by Ada. She was asked what life was like when she was a young girl, and said that her mother took her to tea with Mrs O’Shea. Then Ada added, “That was long before the scandal with Parnell.” This was a complete mystery as the two families hardly moved in the same social circles!

It wasn't till 1999 that there was any light thrown on this - and it provided even more puzzles. Her great-niece and god-daughter Betty said that Lizzie was “personal maid to Kitty O’Shea!”

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The story of ‘Kitty O’Shea’ hit the headlines in the 1890s and undermined the Irish bid for Home Rule for many years. The story is a well-known one and more details can be found in many books and encyclopaedias. She was never 'Kitty' but 'Kate' and was not Irish though it suited the press to imply that she was.

Katherine Page Wood, born 1846, was the 13th child and 6th daughter of Sir John Page Wood of Rivenhall Place, Essex, at one time chaplain in the royal household. Katherine was known as Katie to the family, never Kitty, which was a newspaper invention, nor was she Irish or Catholic. She married firstly William Henry O’Shea whose father was a Catholic solicitor in Dublin. He became a cornet of the 18th Hussars and retired as a Captain. Willie gambled and spent money recklessly. He had to sell his string of racehorses and their estate near Stevenage and then they were constantly on the move.

In 1871 the family were bankrupt and lived for a time in Brighton. However Mrs O’Shea’s brother-in-law bailed them out and for a while they returned to their busy social life which included entertaining on a rather lavish scale.

During this period of the early seventies the O'Sheas moved four times in four years. They had three children, Gerard, (or Gaynor as he appears on the 1881 Census), born in Brighton, Norah and Carmen. They were for a few years in Beaufort Gardens, Chelsea, but had to move to a smaller house on the Harrow Road as they became increasingly insolvent, and then Hastings. They often stayed with Lady Emma, Katie’s mother at Rivenhall or visited Emma or Anna, Katie’s sisters and particularly her aunt Maria, wife of Benjamin Wood, and known as “Aunt Ben”, on whom they became rather dependent financially. Maria Wood was wealthy and rather eccentric, but childless. She did not approve of Willie but was very fond of Katie, treating her in many ways like a daughter. She often rescued them from disaster and it is said that she urged Katie several times to leave her worthless husband. For a while Katie O’Shea made daily visits to her Aunt Ben at Eltham Park where she had leased a large house, (Crown property) every day. Though Willie did continue to visit this was the beginning of their separation, especially as he continued to involve himself in other wild business ventures, sometimes abroad.

If Lizzie Cope was "personal maid" at this time there are certain inconsistencies between the two "accounts".

The early 1870s can be ruled out. Katie O’Shea’s personal maid, a French girl called Caroline, who had been with her from the beginning, remained loyal when they sold Bennington Park and the racehorses and was still with her in Chelsea. Moreover Lizzie would still have been at school!

Ada said that “Mrs O’Sheas two little boys played the piano.” Her memory could have been faulty here as Mrs O’Shea had only the one boy, Gerard. Boys at that time were not ‘breeched’ – put into trousers – until the age of four or five but were dressed just like their sisters. Assuming that a child might start learning the piano at the age of four – enough to play a very simple little piece – it could be that Ada simply mistook Norah for a boy. The visit could then be dated to 1877 or 1878 as Norah was born in January 1873.

Ada’s mother, Sarah Alecia Cope, née Arrowsmith, died of pneumonia on Oct. 18th 1878 after being ill for two months so the summer of 1878 is the last possible date for this event. At that time Lizzie was 15, Ada 10, Gerard 8, and Norah 5. The O’Shea family were already installed at North Park, Eltham which would be fairly easy to reach by train from Waterloo. The coffee shop was only a short step from Waterloo Station. However, Lizzie would be rather young to be a ‘lady’s maid’.

A few years later, in 1881at North Park, another girl, Mary Frances, aged 28, is recorded on the Census as Katie’s personal maid. It is just possible that Lizzie fitted in between these other two. She was with Mrs O’Shea at Seaford and “paraded in furs” along the Promenade, so that was presumably in winter! There is another possibility which would put the visit much later - and still "well before the scandal." There is no firm record of Lizzie on the 1881 Census, only a girl of the right age, Elizabeth M. Cope in service in St Helier, Jersey. The initial 'M' is wrong, possibly no more than a simple mistake, a nd if this is still Lizzie, it could explain the 'folk memory' passed down by more than one branch of the family that there was a connection with the Channel Islands. No other possible evidence of such a 'connection' has been found.

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It was in 1880 when Willie O'Shea was elected as an Irish member for County Clare that Katie met Charles Stuart Parnell. She had been instrumental in furthering her husband's parliamentary career which naturally brought her into close contact with the Irish party in the Commons. Parnell, born in 1846 in Co.Wicklow in Ireland, led the struggle for Irish Home Rule. He had been an MP since 1875. Soon he was showing himself a master of disguise as he followed Katie around the places she stayed in Brighton and elsewhere. He even visited her often at Eltham from 1881 onwards. There is some doubt about whether Willie knew of their ‘arrangements’. It is possible that he may have found them ‘convenient’.

Captain O’Shea, as he liked to be known, helped Parnell in his campaign for the leadership of the Irish National Party. Their association continued through the eighties. Katie was heavily involved as intermediary between Gladstone and Parnell but relations between her husband and her lover were increasingly strained. In the 1880s she had three more daughters, the first of whom died in infancy. They were all christened with the O’Shea surname though they were undoubtedly Parnell’s children.

Ada claimed that the ‘tea’ incident was “long before the scandal”. This could simply mean that it wasn’t ‘headline news' – yet! If it took place in the eighties rather than the seventies the ‘mother’ referred to could have been Ada’s stepmother. Her father, Henry George Cope (senior) had married his second wife, Sophia, in early 1879, though he himself died on January 28th 1881 after being ill for two months with pneumonia. Sophia survived him for many years. Ada continued to live at home until at least the summer of 1889 when she herself was married.

Katie’s affair was not known to the public until the nineties. As Gerard O’Shea was ten in 1880 he was sent away to school, and hardly fits the description of 'small boy'. (As he grew up he was increasingly sympathetic towards his father and rather hostile towards his mother.) The scandal became public knowledge at last after the death of Maria Wood who died in 1889, leaving her considerable property to her niece. Captain O’Shea, seeing that he was to get none of it, filed for divorce with Parnell as co-respondent and this was granted without being contested, in November 1890. Parnell married Katie O’Shea on 26th June 1891 in Brighton. It was there, at their house in Walsingham Terrace that he died four months later, from pneumonia.

Katie Parnell as she now was, died on April 22nd, 1905 at Littlehampton.


http://www.barbsweb.co.uk/history/lizzie.htm

MarchDub

The Irish Party did indeed let down Parnell. In 1890 after the divorce verdict they re-elected him leader at their meeting on Nov 25 - but when the Catholic Bishops came out strongly against him, as did the Liberals and Conservatives in England and the English press, they dropped him at a follow up meeting in December. It was betrayal, as Yeats declared it IMO. It soured not only Yeats but more especially James Joyce who railed and raged against Irish self-hated in all of his work. A point that is missed by many about Joyce. "Ireland is an old sow who eats her young" - is how Joyce described this trait of national self-hatred.

Parnell had apparently lied about his relationship to fellow members of the Irish Party - possibly to protect Katherine or maybe because he felt it was his private life and no one's business. No record exists of why he behaved the way he did. Most especially this untruth was claimed by Michael Davitt - who was amongst the first to urge him to be set aside as leader.

CDfm

The other issue is when did Willie know, and was he happy - he challenged Parnell to a duel.

It also seems that Katie did inherit money.

Katharine first met Parnell in 1880, when she was married to but already separated from Captain William O'Shea, a Catholic Nationalist MP for Galway borough. Out of her family connection to the Liberal Party she acted as liaison between Parnell and Gladstone during negotiations prior to the introduction of the First Irish Home Rule Bill in April 1886. Parnell moved to her home in Eltham, Surrey, that summer; three of Katharine's children were fathered by Parnell, the first died early in 1882, the others were Claire (1883-1909) and Katharine (1884-1947).
Captain O'Shea knew about the affair, challenged Parnell to a duel in 1881 and initially forbid Katharine to see him, although she claimed that he encouraged her in the relationship. However, he kept publicly quiet for several years. His reasons for filing for divorce in 1889 was a matter for speculation. He may have had political motives. Alternatively, it is known that he had been hoping for an inheritance from Katharine's rich aunt whom he expected to die earlier, but when she died in 1889 her money was left in trust to cousins.
Although their relationship was common knowledge among politicians, public knowledge of the affair in an England governed by " Victorian morality" with a "nonconformist conscience" created a huge scandal and led to Parnell's being deserted by a majority of his own Irish Parliamentary Party and to his downfall as its leader. Katharine and Parnell married shortly after her divorce from Captain O'Shea. With Parnell's political life and his health essentially ruined, his physical life ended at the age of 45 in Brighton in October 1891, less than four months after their marriage. The cause was most likely coronary heart disease inherited from his grandfather and father who also died prematurely.

There are various accounts , but, it seems that Katie did inherit money and her family felt she manipulated the rich Aunt and took her to court. She fought the case and had to share the estate and pay costs too.

If Willie O'Shea was not wealthy, neither was Parnell, in 1883 he was the benificiary of a national collection of £38,000 to get him out of debt and put his finances in order.

It may have seemed to Willie that having gotten the lady, that his lifestyle would now suffer.

It could be that O'Shea his reputation in tatters and facing a lifestyle change just got mad and wanted to get even.

jonniebgood1

MarchDub wrote: »

Parnell had apparently lied about his relationship to fellow members of the Irish Party - possibly to protect Katherine or maybe because he felt it was his private life and no one's business. No record exists of why he behaved the way he did. Most especially this untruth was claimed by Michael Davitt - who was amongst the first to urge him to be set aside as leader.

If Parnell did put his personal situation before the movement he was leading (as much of the evidence suggest) it is a far greater scandal than the divorce issues that on the face of it, brought him down. Could this risking of the home rule movement be a reason why his own party refused to back him? He should have known O'Shea was out to get him after the Times court case where O'shea appeared on side of the Times against Parnell. This is reinforced further by refusing to resign as other leading figures such as William O'Brien had told him was neccessary, thus he ensured the party/ movement would split.

CDfm

MarchDub wrote: »

The Irish Party did indeed let down Parnell. In 1890 after the divorce verdict they re-elected him leader at their meeting on Nov 25 - but when the Catholic Bishops came out strongly against him, as did the Liberals and Conservatives in England and the English press, they dropped him at a follow up meeting in December.

Ah cmon MD - Parnell is not the first and wont be the last politician to be ruined by sexual indiscretion.

It was betrayal, as Yeats declared it IMO. It soured not only Yeats but more especially James Joyce who railed and raged against Irish self-hated in all of his work. A point that is missed by many about Joyce. "Ireland is an old sow who eats her young" - is how Joyce described this trait of national self-hatred.

Joyce, was hardly self sufficient himself and was from the same class that gave us Willie O'Shea.

My own view of Joyce's writting is soft porn masquerading as high class literature and a bit too "readers wives" for my taste.

Parnell had apparently lied about his relationship to fellow members of the Irish Party - possibly to protect Katherine or maybe because he felt it was his private life and no one's business. No record exists of why he behaved the way he did. Most especially this untruth was claimed by Michael Davitt - who was amongst the first to urge him to be set aside as leader.

A politicians primary duty is to stay in power and it is their raison d'etre. Bertie Ahern did with tribunal investigations and Brian Cowan is now. Parnell did too.

Also, as a landlord and part of the ruling classes he would benefit from the Land Acts.

In political parties, you have competition for leadership and maybe he felt that if he stepped aside he would loose the woman.

Stranger things have happened.

MarchDub

CDfm wrote: »

Ah cmon MD - Parnell is not the first and wont be the last politician to be ruined by sexual indiscretion.



Joyce, was hardly self sufficient himself and was from the same class that gave us Willie O'Shea.

My own view of Joyce's writing is soft porn masquerading as high class literature and a bit too "readers wives" for my taste.





A politicians primary duty is to stay in power and it is their raison d'etre. Bertie Ahern did with tribunal investigations and Brian Cowan is now. Parnell did too.

Also, as a landlord and part of the ruling classes he would benefit from the Land Acts.

In political parties, you have competition for leadership and maybe he felt that if he stepped aside he would loose the woman.

Stranger things have happened.

I'm not expressing any personal opinions here - just trying to lay down some of what's on the record. Of course, Parnell was not the first nor the last to be ruined by 'scandal'. I would not suggest otherwise.

And as for Joyce - his art was very much influenced by the fall of Parnell. It's as if he couldn't wash it out of his mind as regards Ireland.

CDfm

To read an account of Willies maiden speech in 1880 on Hansard here is a link and it starts around line 1140.

http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/commons/1880/jun/29/second-reading-adjourned-debate-on#S3V0253P0_18800629_HOC_70

Around page 167 here read an account of the duel and Willie finding Parnells portmanteau and Parnells note to Katie "would you enquire of O'Shea where he left my luggage" That had to hurt.

http://books.google.ie/books?id=mD1QNISfkKgC&pg=PA167&lpg=PA167&dq=parnells+portmanteau&source=bl&ots=J1xQzPX63W&sig=DSXTtdgaSzrzygdYdFgNihDSRj0&hl=en&ei=F5QDTZinJsuChQf42sntBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CBoQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q&f=false

CDfm

MarchDub wrote: »

I'm not expressing any personal opinions here - just trying to lay down some of what's on the record. Of course, Parnell was not the first nor the last to be ruined by 'scandal'. I would not suggest otherwise.

And as for Joyce - his art was very much influenced by the fall of Parnell. It's as if he couldn't wash it out of his mind as regards Ireland.

Of course, Joyce's impenitrable prose is probably the reason why his sexually charged material in Ulysses was able to get published and Lawrences Lady Chatterly's Lover had to wait another quarter of a century.

It could not corrupt the minds of young girls cos they could not read it.

Here is a link to the publication and this was 40 or so years after Parnells death and it was america and not Ireland. You can hardly blame the Irish bishops for that.

http://www.libidomag.com/nakedbrunch/archive/unbanning03.html

Maybe the uncrowned king thought he could do as he pleased and maybe the Irish Bishops had little power here.

Dont forget you did not have universal suffrage for 30 years yet and only around a third of adult males had the vote.

MarchDub

Yeah - I know all about the court case re Joyce in the USA. But that is taking s off topic.

The evidence - much of it in letters - suggests that the Irish bishops were really not so much influenced by the so called 'scandal' of the divorce as political motivation. Remember the Pope had condemned the Hole Rule movement and tactics in 1888.

CDfm

MarchDub wrote: »

Yeah - I know all about the court case re Joyce in the USA. But that is taking s off topic.

The evidence - much of it in letters - suggests that the Irish bishops were really so much influenced by the so called 'scandal' of the divorce as political motivation. Remember the Pope had condemned the Hole Rule movement and tactics in 1888.

Its a bit off topic and this is more about the people themselves . I included Joyce really as Willie O'Shea could be probably compared to Joyce's father and people would get more of a feeling for the period and his education etc.

In that way, it gives some context to the period and values not being exclusively Irish or the Bishops but probably universal middle class and voters views and probably not only Ireland but worldwide.

Also both Yeats and Joyce were Boho artists so their values were different to Irish Middle Class voters anyway and not representative.

Anyway, Parnell did not take up Willie's challenge of the duel and add that to his Piggott testimony and neither Katie or Charles should have been a bit suprised at Willie's subsequent action and motivation.

PatsytheNazi

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

O'Shea may come across shallow to put it mildly in regard of his questionable motives in the timing of his seeking divorce. On the other hand, He did also as a public representative speak on behalf of Land reforms in Ireland. His mistake (like Parnells) was to mix public and private life. He is perhaps given more burden of responsibility than is due as the smears on Parnell were contrived by others for their own interests (including those in the Home rule party).

Reference verse 4 "betrayal".

Yes one of those who led the smears against Parnell was Corkman Timothy Healy who later was appointed by British to the post of the first Governor General of the Free State. I think according to Tim Pat Coogan's Micheal Collins, Healy was under secret investigation before Collins's death as having been a British spy in bringing about Parnell's down fall and the disastorous consequences for the Home Rule Party.

CDfm

PatsytheNazi wrote: »

Yes one of those who led the smears against Parnell was Corkman Timothy Healy who later was appointed by British to the post of the first Governor General of the Free State. I think according to Tim Pat Coogan's Micheal Collins, Healy was under secret investigation before Collins's death as having been a British spy in bringing about Parnell's down fall and the disastorous consequences for the Home Rule Party.

I think you have a very low opinion of British Intelligence Patsy .

Why would they have needed Timothy Healy when Willie was there and available.

Because of the relationship between Charles & Katie , they could take him down at any time.

CDfm

So what did the children think

The Uncrowned King of Ireland. This biography provides a fascinating insight into the domestic affair between Parnell and Katherine O' Shea, but is surprisingly vague on key areas of their relationship, for example, their children. However, it has been suggested that Gerard O' Shea (Katherine's son by Cpt. William O' Shea) stepped in and edited the book without his mother's knowledge, in order to preserve his late father's reputation.

http://www.funtrivia.com/en/subtopics/Charles-Stewart-Parnell-272344.html

(this link gives a nice bullet point chronological synopsis of events for those who know little history)

The actual divorce proceedings are here and are around 30 pages -so a short read really

http://books.google.ie/books?id=c-syAAAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=captain+gerard+o%27shea&source=bl&ots=Xidzue5_d0&sig=YxLiGwa6daT9-H7Wm8aXZMIcXzk&hl=en&ei=QKEDTbqwGMqwhQeZ8ZXuBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAzg8#v=onepage&q=captain%20gerard%20o%27shea&f=false

What Gladstone thought of the affair you can judge by this and his warning to Llyod George

When Lloyd George, then Chancellor of the Exchequer with every chance of succeeding to the premiership, embarked on an affair with Frances Stevenson, he gave her a biography of the Irish leader Charles Stewart Parnell as a dreadful warning. The obvious message was that he was not going to let his career be wrecked, as Parnell's had been by the revelation of his adultery with the wife of a parliamentary colleague, Katharine O'Shea, in 1890. The second moral of Parnell's downfall was that it is always the woman who pays the heavier price.

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/reviews/irelands-misfortune-by-elisabeth-kehoe-832691.html

PatsytheNazi

CDfm wrote: »

I think you have a very low opinion of British Intelligence Patsy .

Why would they have needed Timothy Healy when Willie was there and available.

Because of the relationship between Charles & Katie , they could take him down at any time.

Timothy Healy was supposed to be a life long friend and political ally long before the scandal :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:.

CDfm

PatsytheNazi wrote: »

Timothy Healy was supposed to be a life long friend and political ally long before the scandal :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:.

No he wasn't - he was Parnells secretary but was not part of Parnell's inner circle. A former clerk and journalist and very astute.

Parnell put him forward for Wexford and John Redmond (whose deceased father had held the seat and planned to contest the election) stood aside.

Furthermore, Healy led a campaign against Willie O'Shea's selection for Galway in 1886 and only gave way when Parnell arrived and personally intervened.

So maybe Healy felt Parnell had lied to him or misled him.

So when Parnell asked "Who is the master of the party?", Healy asked "Aye, but who is the mistress of the party?" which is as sharp and caustic one liner as ever there was and indicative of his quick intelligence.

Healy felt the Alliance with the Liberals was worth more than Parnells leadership. It was politics and maybe Parnell's ego was too big to give way and he had shown some disasterous judgement.

CDfm

Another aside, Gerard O'Shea , Katie & Willie's son was protective of his fathers reputation.

After everyone involved had died there was a planned play which depicted Willie as accepting a bribe from the Times newspaper and conspiring to connect Parnell with Fenian activity.

He managed to have the play changed and made representations to the Lord Chamberlains office and in doing so was aided by the Woods family his maternal cousins.

http://books.google.ie/books?id=4cEk2p-eEYgC&pg=PA165&lpg=PA165&dq=parnell+play+and+gerard+o%27shea&source=bl&ots=2iYAFPmO_X&sig=lZWfppljkr5h2MzjEUVriD5EZNM&hl=en&ei=r7IDTanGCImHhQfr6NHtBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CBkQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=parnell%20play%20and%20gerard%20o%27shea&f=false

Here is a link I have come accross to a Katie & Charles descendants

http://www.politics.ie/history/92233-parnells-only-grandson-assheton.html

There was also a daughter who lived with Katie till her death and I read somewhere that she changed her name to Wood - katies maiden name -after her death and through her cousins obtained a position as governess.

So the money and inheritance was gone at this stage.

CDfm

This was someone I didn't know existed but he took over Charles seat in South Meath and here is his Wiki entry

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Howard_Parnell

He secured political appointments as a Dublin Marshall and the Register of Pawnbrokers in Ireland.

jonniebgood1

CDfm wrote: »

So when Parnell asked "Who is the master of the party?", Healy asked "Aye, but who is the mistress of the party?" which is as sharp and caustic one liner as ever there was and indicative of his quick intelligence.

Healy felt the Alliance with the Liberals was worth more than Parnells leadership. It was politics and maybe Parnell's ego was too big to give way and he had shown some disasterous judgement.

Anyone would be pround of that retort. It was later written that Healy and Parnell had almost come to blows in comittee room 15 and after the affair was over he wrote to his wife with exuberance "There is exultation in the party today at getting rid of Parnell". He also described Parnell in the context of the O'Shea divorce case as "the real, sole, manifest author of the evil", quite difinitive. Were his motives also self serving or was he jealous of the attention that Parnell got?

http://books.google.ie/books?id=VPKEBJQwVHcC&printsec=frontcover&dq=The+Parnell+split,+1890-91&hl=en&ei=q7gDTYKuGIXusgbrmbiICg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCQQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false (note approx page 50 and also chapter 5 regarding Healy)

CDfm

Parnell had two sisters Anna & Fanny who were founder members of the Ladies Land League.

Anna who died in 1911 wrote a scathing account of the Land League called The Tale of a Great Sham( published posthumously in 1986) and was quite bitter about the organistions treatment .

She is forgotten largely but was a woman of no small ability and this was admired by the Fenian John O'Leary who thought she would have done a better job with the land issue than Charles did.


The Ladies Land League was disolved with Parnell's connivance.

But Archbishop Croke of Cashel came to their defence. Several influential persons, including priests, offered their houses for meetings and protected them from the police but others kept their distance.
Anna Parnell felt that the efficiency of the Ladies' Land League was resented by the men:
I think now that, added to their natural resentment at our having done what they asked us to do, they soon acquired a much stronger ground for their annoyance in the discovery that we were taking the Land League seriously and thought that not paying rent was intended to mean not paying it.
Anna Parnell, Tale of a great sham, (ed. Dana Hearne), Dublin, 1986, p.90. Parnell was released from Kilmainham Jail in May 1882 and initially praised the women for their work but changed his mind soon after. The Ladies' Land League was to be brought firmly under male control and it was eventually dissolved in a humiliating manner, leaving a legacy of bitterness and resentment amongst the women. Anna Parnell wrote an angry account of her experience in Tale of a great sham, which was published in 1986, long after her death.
The Fenian John O'Leary told Maud Gonne later that while he questioned the methods of the Ladies' Land League, they were really suppressed because they were 'honester and more sincere than the men.' Andrew Kettle, staunch supporter of Charles Stewart Parnell said Anna had, a better knowledge of the lights and shades of Irish peasant life, of the real economic conditions of the country and of the social and political forces which had to work out the freedom of Ireland than any person, man or woman, I have ever met ... Anna Parnell would have worked the Land League revolution to a much better conclusion than her great brother.
Quoted in Margaret Ward, Unmanageable revolutionaries, London, 1983, p.14.

http://www.scoilnet.ie/womeninhistory/content/unit3/ladies_land_league.html

Maybe this indicates that Parnell had a bit of a vicious streak about him and could lash out against those close to him, and, could be very manipulative to those close to him.

The difference between Anna and Timothy Healy is that he hit back.

CDfm

Tim Healy described Parnell as an "arrant liar" in letters

http://books.google.ie/books?id=NY0Kx1vzx2AC&pg=PA462&lpg=PA462&dq=%22gerard+o%27shea%22+son+of+william+o%27shea&source=bl&ots=mdLCJFYd8M&sig=OnhuJy3a32oXuJuBlA19nj1Gh90&hl=en&ei=D88DTdCrOMi0hAem95WlDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CDwQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=%22gerard%20o%27shea%22%20son%20of%20william%20o%27shea&f=false

There is a reference to a letter by Gerard to the Times objecting to Parnell being described as a "victim rather than the destroyer of a happy home" by William O'Brien.

jonniebgood1

CDfm wrote: »

The Tale of a Great Sham( published posthumously in 1986)
.

By accounts of Kitty O'Shea this could have been the name for her Memoirs!!!:D

CDfm

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

By accounts of Kitty O'Shea this could have been the name for her Memoirs!!!:D

Tsk tsk

The biggest surprise to me was that there was an inheritance and that there was a dispute between Katie and her siblings that ended up in court.

I was always under the impression that her aunt had left her money to cousins and she had no money and that was the reason for the divorce.

There is a reference here to a deal where Willie was to be paid £20,000 for a divorce and couldn't wait for the money

http://books.google.ie/books?id=40eTvcIfFZcC&pg=PA130&lpg=PA130&dq=willie+o%27shea+and+%C2%A320,000&source=bl&ots=wiJOBpI22N&sig=_r5H5QXMVtBA5bNy9h8BJs03vxU&hl=en&ei=6NoDTe_VKIq7hAfmxJ3uBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q&f=false

It is also suggested elsewhere that Willie recieved a payoff from the Woods family to divorce to aid there court case in the inheritence case.

So the obvious question would be how did Willie survive post divorce ?

jonniebgood1

His (Parnells) colleagues in the movement seemed to derive great enjoyment out of his downfall:
Davitt during a Sligo by-election:

Eight hours of work and eight hours of play, eight hours in bed with Kitty O'Shea

This related to Parnell's quest for standard working hours.

Healy did so on several occasions.
Irish Catholic sneered

the guilty leers of Kitty

To me this is one of (a)opportunism, (b)media hyped frenzy (of the type we see alot of now but I thought less common 120 years ago), or (c)That Parnell had alot of enemies built up over the years and they were glad to make a mockery of him.

jonniebgood1

CDfm wrote: »

I was always under the impression that her aunt had left her money to cousins and she had no money and that was the reason for the divorce.

There is a reference here to a deal where Willie was to be paid £20,000 for a divorce and couldn't wait for the money

He had to divorce her to get his hands on her (and because of marriage his) inheritance. If he had just stayed away from her he would not have got any (?)

CDfm

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

He had to divorce her to get his hands on her (and because of marriage his) inheritance. If he had just stayed away from her he would not have got any (?)

That of course does not mean he was not gotten to but if so - by whom ?

Edit - Johnnie - 120 years ago they were just as bad .

jonniebgood1

CDfm wrote: »

That of course does not mean he was not gotten to but if so - by whom ?

That is the question, perhaps more interestingly was O'Shea got to by Parnell's opponents or was it Parnell's own people? I suspect that would be pushing the bar out a bit much but their apparent glee at his downfall would make you wonder.

jonniebgood1

Kitty O'Shea


William O'Shea


Post-divorce cartoon showing Parnell using the fire escape to evade detection.


Parnells funeral in Dublin (note Nelsons Column I think in background, whatever one thinks of its symbolism, it is certainly a more impressive feature than the spire!)


Parnell addressing angry crowd in 1890 in Kilkenny, this epitomised the division in the party as his candidate went against the Home rule parties candidate.

http://multitext.ucc.ie/viewgallery/531

CDfm

Katie's brother Field Marshal Evelyn Wood VC died in 1921 and this is his funeral on British Pathe news .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-13TpfWNj0U

He earned his VC rescueing an Indian Merchant who had been kidnapped and was about to be hanged



Here he is in 1910 with Kitchener, Roberts etc at King Edwards Funeral.

Katie's father was a one time Royal Chaplain.

It is just speculation, but she may not really have been an Irish Nationalist.

CDfm

Here is something that might put things in perspective. Politics at that time was full of intrigue and here is an extract from Wilfred Swawen Blunts diary.

He was a diplomat and mover and shaker at the time.


There is more of the diary here in e-book format & the extract is from page 12

http://www.ebooksread.com/authors-eng/wilfrid-scawen-blunt/my-diaries-being-a-personal-narrative-of-events-1888-1914-volume-1-nul/page-26-my-diaries-being-a-personal-narrative-of-events-1888-1914-volume-1-nul.shtml

have consequently telegraphed to Bell
to say he must get Parnell's consent. I believe, if
I chose to do it, I could get returned in some Irish
division, even without Parnell's leave, but that I
would not do.

" This morning Parnell and Justin M^^Carthy made
each a statement of their interviews with Lord
Carnarvon. I have no doubt Parnell's account is
correct; and T. P. O'Connor tells me that the man
at whose house it was originally proposed that
Carnarvon and Parnell should meet was Howard
Vincent. This Howard Vincent, I remember, asked
me to meet the Prince of [COLOR=blue ! important][COLOR=blue ! important]Wales[/COLOR][/COLOR] at his house four
years ago, and is something of a professional go-
between, having been Inspector-General of the
Secret Police. He seems to have gone on a secret
spying mission last autumn to Ireland, and poor Dr.
Croke complained very bitterly of his having come
to him with letters from Cardinal Manning, and of
having been afterwards betrayed by Vincent. Vin-
cent's wife wrote rather an absurd account of Dr.
Croke in the ' Pall Mall,' and of his cat and dog,
which offended him more. Vincent declared for

147



Dr. BligJi of Liverpool

Home Rule at the elections, and got returned by
the Irish vote; yet, when I met him in the Lobby
three months ago and asked him whether he was
still a Home Ruler, he denied that he had ever had
any connection with the idea.

"In the afternoon to Liverpool for an Irish
meetine, havinor first lunched with Mrs. Howard,
who is rejoiced that I have at length taken my
name off the Carlton Club. I committed this happy
despatch to-day.

''June 13. — I slept last night at the North-Western
[COLOR=blue ! important][COLOR=blue ! important]Hotel[/COLOR][/COLOR], but moved to-day to Dr. Bligh's house, where
I occupy ' Mr. Parnell's room.' Dr. Bligh is a
Catholic, the head of the National League in Liver-
pool, and a capital fellow. In the morning we went
to Mass, and afterwards down to the quays, and at
three we had our meeting in the Hall in Nelson
Street. The audience, chiefly Irish, received me
very well, and listened throughout, though I spoke
for nearly two hours. It was one of the best speeches
I have made. In it I declared my severance from
the Conservative party, and my intention to support
Mr. Gladstone at the coming elections. Afterwards
I was much urged to stand for some division of
Liverpool or the county. I like these Liverpool
Irish amazingly, and such of the Liberals as I have
seen. Back by night train to London.

''June 14. — To the British Home Rule Associa-
tion. Joseph Cowen takes a gloomy view of things,
which I share. He thinks that Ireland is farther
away from Home Rule than ever, that it will be at
least ten years before she gets her wish, and that the
present elections will go strongly against Gladstone

Blunt was a bit of a character and his personal life a bit soap operaish. This Wiki extract gives an idea

In 1869[3], he married Lady Anne Noel, who was the daughter of the Earl of Lovelace and granddaughter of Lord Byron. Together they travelled through Spain, Algeria, Egypt, the Syrian Desert, and extensively in the Middle East and India. Based upon pure-blooded Arabian horses they obtained in Egypt and the Nejd, they co-founded Crabbet Arabian Stud, and later purchased a property near Cairo, named Sheykh Obeyd which housed their horse breeding operation in Egypt.[4]
In 1882 he championed the cause of Urabi Pasha, which led him to be banned from entering Egypt for four years.[5] Blunt generally opposed British imperialism as a matter of philosophy, and his support for Irish causes led to his imprisonment in 1888.
Wilfrid and Lady Anne's only child to live to maturity was Judith Blunt-Lytton, 16th Baroness Wentworth, later known as Lady Wentworth. As an adult, she was married in Cairo but moved permanently to the Crabbet Park Estate in 1904.
Wilfrid had a number of mistresses, among them a long term relationship with the courtesan Catherine "Skittles" Walters, and eventually moved another mistress, Dorothy Carleton, into his home, an event which triggered Lady Anne's legal separation from him in 1906. At that time, Lady Anne signed a Deed of Partition drawn up by Wilfrid. Under its terms, unfavourable to Lady Anne, she kept the Crabbet Park property (where their daughter Judith lived) and half the horses, while Blunt took Caxtons Farm, also known as Newbuildings, and the rest of the stock. Always struggling with financial concerns and chemical dependency issues, Wilfrid sold off numerous horses in order to pay debts, and constantly attempted to obtain additional assets. Lady Anne left the management of her properties to Judith, and spent many months of every year in Egypt at the Sheykh Obeyd estate, moving there permanently in 1915.[6]
Due primarily to the manoeuvring of Wilfrid in an attempt to disinherit Judith and obtain the entire Crabbet property for himself, Judith and her mother were estranged at the time of Lady Anne's death in 1917, and thus Lady Anne's share of the Crabbet Stud passed to Judith's daughters, under the oversight of an independent trustee. Wilfrid filed a lawsuit soon afterward. Ownership of the Arabian horses went back and forth between the estates of father and daughter in the following years. Wilfrid sold yet more horses in his control, mostly to pay off debts, and shot at least four in an attempt to spite his daughter, action which required intervention of the trustee of the estate with a court injunction to prevent him from further "dissipating the assets" of the estate. The lawsuit was eventually settled in favour of the granddaughters in 1920, and Judith bought their share from the trustee, combining it with her own assets and reuniting the stud. Father and daughter briefly reconciled shortly before Wilfrid's death in 1922, but his promise to rewrite his will to restore Judith's inheritance never materialised.[7]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilfrid_Scawen_Blunt

CDfm

PatsytheNazi wrote: »

I think according to Tim Pat Coogan's Micheal Collins, Healy was under secret investigation before Collins's death as having been a British spy in bringing about Parnell's down fall and the disastorous consequences for the Home Rule Party.

A bit off topic -I knew I saw an article somewhere on a spy - this article sheds some light on it.

Keeping the lid on an Irish revolution: the Gosselin–Balfour correspondence

Arthur Balfour, chief secretary for Ireland from 1887 to 1891, with whom Major Nicholas Gosselin corresponded. (Multitext Project)

The Gosselin–Balfour papers show that by December 1887 a member of the Irish Party was employed by British intelligence to report on its internal difficulties, many of which were financial. For example, in June 1888 Gosselin’s agent reported that Sir T. G. Esmonde, a Catholic member of the landed gentry and Irish Party MP, had just donated a huge sum of money to help keep the party afloat. Nevertheless, four of its recently elected MPs for Ulster still had to resign owing to financial difficulties, and almost half the party’s MPs were perpetual absentees from Westminster because they could not afford to live away from their homes in Ireland. Although a frequent absentee himself, Parnell criticised these men, stating that he ‘will have no more impecunious members’ who could not support themselves. Yet Gosselin’s informant reported that Parnell himself was experiencing financial difficulties.

You can read more here

http://www.historyireland.com/volumes/volume15/issue6/features/?id=114155

CDfm

When Katie met Charles

By a strange trick of faith Parnell had been speaking prior to the 1880 general election and won his seat but also elected at that election was a minor Clare landlord named captain William O’Shea. It so happened that his wife, Catherine had gone to hear Parnell speak on that day in Ennis. She was near the platform and more than once caught his eyes as he glanced in her direction. Apparently Charles had an eye for more than a beautiful landscape for he never forgot the woman he had seen near the platform in Ennis.

Catherine O’Shea was now 35 years old. She was a beautiful woman, with a mouth expressive of sweetness and tenderness with sultry eyes and a head of well kept glossy black hair. She had been married to the captain when she was 21 and they now had three children, a boy aged ten and two daughters aged seven and five. She visited the London Parliament some time later and met Parnell for the first time. Some time after she told a friend “When he came out I saw a tall man, looking gaunt and deadly pale. He looked straight at me smiling and his curiously burning eyes looked into mine wit a wondering intentness, that threw into my brain the sudden thought, this man is wonderful and different.” That summer Parnell and Catherine O’Shea met several times in the House and when he took her for drives in the country.

Meanwhile, back in Ireland, the power of the land league was increasing every day and the British government under Gladstone was determined to act. On Wednesday 3rd of November 1880 while Parnell was at lunch in Dublin a plain clothes police officer approached him and handed him an indictment for conspiracy nineteen counts. Thirteen other land league members also were indicted on much the same accounts. The trial camp up, the jury disagreed, and the charge came to nothing.

At this time Parnell had been deeply involved with Katie O’Shea but if her husband knew he said nothing about it. Yet Katie told a friend that he knew well what was going on and that he knew Parnell stayed with her during her husband’s absences

When did Willie find out of the affair especially as he believed the child Sophie who died in April 1882 was his ?

At this time Parnell had been deeply involved with Katie O’Shea but if her husband knew he said nothing about it. Yet Katie told a friend that he knew well what was going on and that he knew Parnell stayed with her during her husband’s absences. This may have been true but on 12th July 1881 O’Shea wrote to Parnell challenging him to a dual because what was happening. Apparently O’Shea had returned and found Parnell’s suitcase in the house. After a fierce row with his wife he had gone back to London and wrote the letter. It appears that O’Shea later accepted Parnell’s word that nothing was going on and there was no more about the dual. On 13th October 1881 Parnell was arrested and brought to Kilmainham jail. The Land League was finally suppressed some time later. Parnell was in the jail for six months and while he was there Katie gave birth to their first child, a baby girl, on 15th February 1882. A healthy baby at first the child began to sink later, and when Parnell, on parole due to the death of a nephew, visited Katie in Eltham in England he found the baby seriously ill. He and Katie were along with the child when the baby Sophie died. Captain O’Shea was not aware that he was not the father of the child and wrote on April 25th. “My child is to be buried at Christchurch this afternoon.” On the day of the funeral Parnell was back in prison but was released along with Davitt on 2nd May 1882. Katie got her divorce and married Parnell. He was in Eltham with Katie when he read of the murder of Burke and Cavendish in the Phoenix Park. Katie maintained that Parnell was never the same man after. The strength of the Land League followers was now greatly reduced and although Parnell travelled the country the ‘Parnell Split’ which followed the news of the Parnell-Katie O’Shea affair had taken its toll and there was no road back.

I mean if you buried a child you thought was yours and suddenly discovered they were not -you would be a tad upset.

http://archives.tcm.ie/carlownationalist/2006/05/31/story28210.asp

CDfm

Willie is listed living in London in the 1901 Census but lists no occupation other than the Army.


http://www.1901censusonline.com/results.asp?wci=person_results&searchwci=person_search


I have seen a listing somewhere that he owned 800 plus acres somewhere in Co Clare in the 1870's

So I wonder how he lived.

CDfm

For those interested in the origans of Parnells family this is a very interesting articleof a man who grew up in the ruling classes .

Miss Frances Power Cobbe, in her Life from which quotation has already been made, has the following passage:
“Mrs. Evans, née Sophia Parnell… and a great-aunt of Charles Stewart Parnell… often spoke to me of the Avondale branch of her family, and more than once said: ‘There is mischief brewing! I am trouble at what is going on in Avondale. My nephew’s wife’ (the American lady, Delia Stewart) ‘has a hatred of England, and is educating my nephew, like a little Hannibal, to hate it too!’”URL="http://www.irishhistorylinks.net/Historical_Documents/Parnell_Family.html#27"]27[/URL
The octogenarian Mrs. Parnell, when she tried to account to Mr. O’Brien her son’s singular antipathy to the race from which he had sprung, omitted to inform him that she had deliberately misshaped her son’s mind, and had reared him and his brothers and sisters in a rage which could not end otherwise than in the ruin of those whom it racked

Here is another interesting snippet

he lady’s second son, Charles Steward Parnell, a young militia officer, who bluntly asserted that the patriots were tramps. His disgust with them was such that he used to lie in wait for them behind the hall door, and, directly it was open, make a rush for them and kick them down the steps.URL="http://www.irishhistorylinks.net/Historical_Documents/Parnell_Family.html#1"]1[/URL His dislike of the Fenians was as strong as his sister’s affection for them, and since his temper was quick and fierce and sometimes uncontrollable, he caused dismay among the patriots who thronged about his mother’s door. This house was so divided against itself that the Fenians had to be careful how they approached it in search of sustenance and charity.

http://www.irishhistorylinks.net/Historical_Documents/Parnell_Family.html

The whole article is worth a read and I am struck by the similarity between Oscar Wilde's mother and Parnell's.

Is it just me or can anyone else spot the similarities with Katie and Delia his own Mother.

Hangs out at the Viceregal Lodge yet is very outspoken and strong willed.

To quote Wilde

All women become like their mothers. That is their tragedy. No man does. That's his.

CDfm

I want to revisit the divorce papers - which went uncontested but there are some nuggets in there

http://books.google.ie/books?id=c-syAAAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=captain+gerard+o%27shea&source=bl&ots=Xidzue5_d0&sig=YxLiGwa6daT9-H7Wm8aXZMIcXzk&hl=en&ei=QKEDTbqwGMqwhQeZ8ZXuBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAzg8#v=onepage&q=captain%20gerard%20o%27shea&f=false

Katie had accused Willie in a cross petition of having an affair with her own sister a Mrs Steele. She appeared as a witness and denied it. It is likely that she was one of the people who contested Aunt Ben's will and sued Katie.

All I can say here is wow - the gloves were off.

Willie & Katie's son had written a letter to his father in 1887 ? about Parnell's presence

Parnell denied the affair in writting to Willie on Commons notepaper in 1884.

So there is a lot of reason to believe that it wasn't until 1887 that Willie and Katie were estranged.


That affair was eventually to yield three daughters, all of whom were passed off as the offspring Captain O'Shea as she slept with both men.

So here are the facts

However, Katherine did more than warm Parnell's bed for him. She used her family connections to get private audiences with Gladstone, the Liberal Prime Minister, and to carry messages from Parnell to him about Home Rule.

She attended debates at the Commons, watching her lover speak with "fire and passion" about his beloved Ireland. She also watched for a signal from him with his hanky, indicating that the coast was clear for a late night tryst, either in her home or at Parnell's accomodation.

Always paranoid about his privacy, Parnell never revealed where he stayed in London even to his closest political colleagues who had no idea that he was bedding Mrs O'Shea. The couple ran enormous risks to be together. Parnell was instantly recognisable and he took to arriving at Mrs O'Shea's in disguise and to calling himself "Mr Stewart., Knowing that she was pregnant with her first child by Parnell, Kitty cooly resumed her sex life with her husband in a bid to convince him that the child was his. She told Parnell what she was doing and he was full of admiration for "the unwanted attentions you have to put up with".

If having a child not fathered by her husband was a mistake, neither Kitty nor Parnell learned from it. Their first baby, a daughter called Claude, died within weeks of birth, and within a year Katherine was pregnant again.

It is clear from this fascinating book that Wille O'Shea must have been either stupid or indifferent, or else connived with his wife's adultery to further his own political career.

O'Shea was away a lot and an absentee husband suited Kitty just fine. She and Parnell were able virtually able to live together, even though Katherine's three older children by O'Shea were also in the house with them.

Astutely Katherine used ongoing financial support from an aunt and the possibility of a substantial inheritance as a way of getting Willie to turn a blind eye.

But on one occasion their cosy domestic arrangement very nearly came unstuck when Captain O'Shea turned up unexpectedly and almost caught his wife and her lover in the act. Parnell and Katherine had locked the doors and Parnell just had to time to get out no a fire escape. He re-appeared at the front door some minutes later to call on Captain and Mrs O'Shea

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/bookworm-235758.html

.

jonniebgood1

"In his final desperate appeal to his countrymen, he begged them not to throw him as a sop to the English wolves howling around them. It redounds to their honour that they did not fail this appeal. They did not throw him to the English wolves; they tore him to pieces themselves."

This is from end of Joyces essay on parnell. He explains how Parnell was treated in summary form with good reference to his entry into parliament after being cleared of charges made in relation to the Times forged letters. Text of it is here: http://books.google.ie/books?id=vdhWenAcwCUC&pg=PA191&lpg=PA191&dq=the+shade+of+parnell&source=bl&ots=sTSGje14ZH&sig=EUp66bRxGxQ89yJ4s7mBBLV-mcg&hl=en&ei=uZYETbLsJsq2hQeBkPTtBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=the%20shade%20of%20parnell&f=false

CDfm

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

"In his final desperate appeal to his countrymen, he begged them not to throw him as a sop to the English wolves howling around them. It redounds to their honour that they did not fail this appeal. They did not throw him to the English wolves; they tore him to pieces themselves."

This is from end of Joyces essay on parnell. He explains how Parnell was treated in summary form with good reference to his entry into parliament after being cleared of charges made in relation to the Times forged letters. Text of it is here: http://books.google.ie/books?id=vdhWenAcwCUC&pg=PA191&lpg=PA191&dq=the+shade+of+parnell&source=bl&ots=sTSGje14ZH&sig=EUp66bRxGxQ89yJ4s7mBBLV-mcg&hl=en&ei=uZYETbLsJsq2hQeBkPTtBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=the%20shade%20of%20parnell&f=false

A nice read, but don't you think it sounds a bit like Mark Anthony in Shakespeares Julius Caesar. A huge ego killed the man.

Everyone knew that the Divorce case would ruin Parnell, perhaps except Charles and Katie. The accusation ,made against Willie and Mrs Steele was downright nasty.

The British did not treat him any differently than they would have treated one of their own.

His own party, well , they had a value system too as had the electorate -no different to that of England.

Timothy Healy refered to him as an "arrant liar" and trust is either 100% or zero, there is no I trust him a bit. He had promised to defend the case and did not .So, in their eyes ,he was not an honourable man.

From what I can see here, Willie O'Shea does not come out of this badly -while Katie and Charles do.

There is little info to go on to atack Willie, the Catholic Church or the British public cannot be be blamred.

CDfm

John Parnell - Charley's older brother was of the opinion that what drove/inspired Charley was the American Civil War.

John Was a Peach Farmer and Fruit Dealer in the US for several years and here is an extract of an account of those years. This also gives a good account of the American connection & his grandfather the US Admiral Charles Stewart

The Parnell Peach Farm

An interesting venture in the current Valley, AL area was the John Howard
Parnell cotton and peach farm. Parnell was from a very wealthy family in
Avondale, Wicklow Co., Ireland, and came to the area in 1867, to purchase
a "plantation." The 1870 and 1880 census of Chambers Co. (pg. 21/203) shows
that he was born ca. 1845, and would have been about twenty-two years old at
the time of his arrival. However, the book, Charles Stewart Parnell, A Memoir,
that he wrote around 1905, shows his birth date as 1843.

His mother, Delia Tudor Stewart, an American, was the daughter of Admiral
Charles Stewart, U.S. Navy, who had served in the Revolutionary War and the War
of 1812, and from 1813-1815, was Captain of the USS Constitution, known as "Old
Ironsides.” He was also referred to as the "American Nelson." John Parnell's
uncle, Charles Stewart, who lived in America, had advised him that after the
Civil War that great fortunes were to be made here, and advised him to come to
America. Parnell had just inherited some money and his uncle told him that he
had the chance to double it. He decided to come and purchased 1,482 acres of
land from Col. George W. Huguley on July 11, 1867, for $12,000, after seeing it
advertised for sale in the New York newspapers (Chambers Co. deed book 14, pg.
768). As the story goes, he took a train from New York to West Point and met
with Col. Huguley on the front porch of his home. After a few minutes of
conversation and negotiation, he bought the land for cash in the form of gold
coin. This land was located on the old Columbus-Berlin road, about eight miles
south of West Point, near Glass, AL. According to his book, he originally
purchased this land for growing cotton. Later, he started a peach-growing venture on part of the property

The full text is here

http://files.usgwarchives.net/al/chambers/history/parnell.txt

John also wrote a memoir on his brother on which a lot of biographers rely upon " Charles Stewart Parnell" and I have found the full text of it on-line . Here are the opening paragraphs and a link to the full text

The Avondale Tea-House.

I BEGIN the life of my brother, Charles Stewart
Parnell — or, as I cannot help calling him, Charley
— in a small cosy room in the old tea-cottage on
the banks of the Avonmore, near the Meeting of
the Waters on my brother's demesne at Avon-
dale.

This cottage took the place of the historical tea-
house, of which two rooms are left in a somewhat
mined state. The old tea-house stood on the
same spot two hundred years ago, and was then
the rendezvous for all the Wicklow nobility and
gentry, who came there to drink tea when on a
visit to the Parnell and Hayes families. I re-
member specially that Lord and Lady Wicklow
used to drive round there to recall old memories
on their way to visit my mother. My brother
Charley always called in there on his daily walk
down to the sawmills.

3



4 CHARLES STEWART PARNELL

While the original tea-house has practically dis-
appeared, the old trees and shrubs all remain, as
well as young trees planted since by my brother
during his ownership. One feature is the im-
mense old silver firs — the largest in Ireland.

As I write this [in 19051] on a fishing visit, they
stand there, looking as if they kept lonely guard
with their funereal plumes, sorrowing, as it were,
for the departed tea-drinkers and the ancient
associations of Avondale.

This cottage is built on the banks of the beauti-
ful River Avonmore, about half a mile from
Charley's old home of Avondale. The road from
Avondale winds in and out along a charming
wooded valley, with the demesne meadows be-
tween the woods and the cottage, and is looking
its best on this beautiful spring day.

The full text is here


http://www.archive.org/stream/charlesstewartpa00parn/charlesstewartpa00parn_djvu.txt

Here is the contents page

CONTENTS

FOREWORD

---

Vii

^ BOOK I

\ EARLY DAYS

CHAPTER PAGE

I. HOME AND FAMILY

---

3

\ II. IN THE NURSERY - - - - - l8

• III. CHILDHOOD - - - - - 26

"^s IV. WARDS IN CHANCERY - - - - 38

"^ V. AT WISHAW'S - - - - - 47

^) VI. NEARING MANHOOD - - - - 54



^:i •



BOOK II



ij STEPS TO THE THRONE

\ I. THE FENIANS - - - - - 67

II. NEARLY MARRIED - - - - 73

III. CHARLEY IN AMERICA - - - - 82

IV. ADVENTURES IN THE COALFIELDS - - - 89
V. THE RAILWAY ACCIDENT - - - - 96

VI. BACK TO EUROPE - - - - - IIO

VII. Charley's entrance into politics - - 119

VIII. FIRST BLOOD - - - - - 133

IX. IN parliament ..... 141

X. OBSTRUCTION - - - - - 1 49
XI. A TRIUMPHAL TOUR - - - - . I56

XII. LEADER AT LAST - - - - - 1 65

V



219898



vi CONTENTS

BOOK III
IN POWER

CMAPTEB PACK

I. MY brother's personality - - - 171

II. THE RIGHT TO LIVE _ . _ - 183

III. IN PRISON

---

193

IV. THE PHCENIX PARK MURDERS - - - 1 99
V. THE ARREARS ACT

---

205

VI. A SUCCESSFUL CAMPAIGN - - - - 2X1

VII. THE PIGOTT LETTERS - - - - 221

BOOK IV
A LOSING FIGHT

I. THE DIVORCE AND AFTER - - - - 23I

II. THE GOD FROM THE MACHINE - - - 24 1

III. Charley's betrayal - _ _ . 246

IV. AFTER THE DEATH

---

254
V. A VISION

---

258

APPENDICES

A. Charley's superstitions - - - - 263

B. Charley's influence in America - - 268
c. avondale industries - - - - 277
D. where the tribute went to - - - 286
e. a friend's appreciation - - - - 290

F. THE manifesto OF 1890 - - - - 294

G. - - - - - - - 302

CDfm

Back to the divorce, How much money was involved

This gives us a clue.

Then, late in 1889, Willie filed for divorce. He had just discovered, he claimed, that Parnell was sleeping with his wife. The scandal did in Parnell politically, wrecked the power of the Irish National League and, what really matters, sabotaged hopes of Home Rule for Ireland. By discrediting the parliamentary route to national independence it encouraged the most violent Irish nationalists. Because the divorce stirred such high passions, Kee suggests, history has made more of a mystery than need be about when and why finally Willie blew their collective cover.
Quite simply, there was a ton of money involved. Katie's Aunt Ben, most properly Victorian in her views, contributed the equivalent of 160 thousand modern pounds to the O'Sheas each year, including rent on Willie's London flat. She had, moreover, made Katie sole heir to a fortune equivalent of 7 million of today's pounds, tied up legally so that Willie, who was a spendthrift, could never touch it. Had she known the true situation, both the yearly income and the bequest would have been out of the question. Aunt Ben lived to age 96. By the time she died in 1889 Willie no longer needed Parnell's help. He realized that there was no longer need to keep up appearances. Besides, if he discredited Katie with a divorce he might help her other relatives to break the will, and get a good deal of money. So he did that.
Katie and Parnell married the instant the divorce laws set them free. He died only months later of a heart attack. To his credit he had offered years before to give up his career entirely if she would only come away with him openly. Had she agreed - or ifhe had given her up - the history of Ireland from that day to this might have been very different. But it was already a great deal better because he had lived at all.



http://footenotes.net/Pages/Laurel.htm

CDfm

As to the children - I cant find any reference to Gerard , son of Katie & Willie after the book & play.

Katie's daughters by Parnell Clare married a doctor but Katie

Katharine O'Shea, b. NOV 1884, d. 1947 . She married Arthur Moule, East Lancashire Regiment posted to West Africa.
Living in some poverty in the 1930s.
Died in an asylum in 1947.

1937 had her selling her story for money

BIOGRAPHY: Ireland's Misfortune: The Turbulent Life of Kitty O'SheaBy Elisabeth Kehoe Atlantic Books, 608pp. £19.99
IN NOVEMBER 1937 the following headline appeared in the Sunday Dispatch: Boarding-House Keeper Says 'I was Parnell's Favourite Daughter'. Katie Moule, the youngest child of Katharine O'Shea and Charles Stewart Parnell, by then reduced to living in the attic bedroom of a house in Mornington Crescent in north London, sold her story, as she freely admitted, because "my money has gone". Her mother, the daughter of a vicar, the wife of Captain Willie O'Shea, the mistress of Charles Stewart Parnell, "that English whore", "the uncrowned queen of Ireland", had done
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/weekend/2008/0503/1209717334134.html

jonniebgood1

CDfm wrote: »

Back to the divorce, How much money was involved

This gives us a clue.

The link is an interesting newspaper report that detailed some background to the case, the case & verdict, and the start of the contestion of the will. There are some more nuggets from the courtcase in this. The first paragraph calls William O'shea "a guileless innocent" and notes that his charachter has been cleared "at the cost of his intelligence". Also noteworthy is that this newspaper report is from a New Zealand paper from the time- Good news travels fast.
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&d=NOT18910115.2.20&l=mi&e=

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jonniebgood1

Reference Aunt Ben & contested will

Rumours of Katie’s affair with Parnell were rife (more in Ireland than England) but Katie had
become a great friend and companion to Aunt Ben, who changed her will to make Katie the sole
beneficiary. The rest of the family fought back claiming that Ben was insane and bribing doctors
to have her so certified but Katie had PM Gladstone’s doctor certify that she was quite sane and
her new will therefore valid. But Ben died in May 1889 and Willie filed for divorce; Katie tried to
buy him off in order to protect Parnell from career-destroying scandal. Sadly probate had not yet
been granted and she was unable to buy off the venal Willie. After Aunt Ben’s death Katie found
Eltham intolerable and they moved first to Mottingham a mile away and then to Walsingham
Terrace, Brighton.

...

The probate action regarding Aunt Ben’s will remained unsettled and Katie’s personal well-being
suffered from her consequent lack of money (having no income for two-and-a-half years). Also at
stake was the custody of two of Katie’s daughters who were in Willie O’Shea’s control. The case
was decided in March 1882 when the Wood family acquired one half of Ben’s estate and Katie the
other half, minus the court costs. Most important to Katie was that she assumed custody of the
two girls. Sadly much of the wealth was lost to a dishonest trustee and an unfortunate investment
and, in desperate financial straits, she published her memoirs in 1914 but she was ‘in a period of
delusion’ and her son Gerard edited and doctored them.

http://www.theelthamsociety.org.uk/articles/Kitty_OShea_talk.pdf

CDfm

http://www.steyningmuseum.org.uk/parnell.htm

CDfm

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

The link is an interesting newspaper report that detailed some background to the case, the case & verdict, and the start of the contestion of the will. There are some more nuggets from the courtcase in this. The first paragraph calls William O'shea "a guileless innocent" and notes that his charachter has been cleared "at the cost of his intelligence". Also noteworthy is that this newspaper report is from a New Zealand paper from the time- Good news travels fast.
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&d=NOT18910115.2.20&l=mi&e=

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10--1----0--

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