Mr Kitty O'Shea - Captain Willie O'Shea - the Most Vilified Man in Ireland - Why ??

CDfm

His wife's name was Katie (nee Wood) and he was a Captain in the Army and an aspiring stud farm owner when they married, she 22 and he 27.

Both from priveleged backgrounds , her father was a baronet and chaplain to Queen Caroline and she was an heiress. His father a lawyer made his living from liquidating encumbered estates.

Her uncle was a Lord Chancellor Baron Hatherley and her brother became Field Marshall Sir Evelyn Wood

Aunt Ben’s death at the age of ninety-eight moved Willie O’Shea to action. Katie had assiduously cut out her siblings (though they took her to court over the inheritance) and, as an independently wealthy woman, was planning a new life with Parnell. Willie had nothing more to gain. Money and personal advancement were always his primary objectives. Few people trusted him and most of his schemes failed – Galway certainly didn’t want him. But he succeeded in destroying the fragile happiness Katie found with Parnell, playing the part of deceived husband and representing all that was upstanding in Victorian morality. Less turbulent than tedious for the most part, Katie’s life was hidebound by convention except in one particular: the inconvenient fact that she already had a husband when she began living with Parnell as his wife.

So what was she really like - she called him King and he called her Queen

Sir George Lewis, Parnell’s solicitor, who had just successfully defended Parnell in The Times trial. Lewis described her as “a very charming lady but an impossible one”

She fired him and what Piggott ,the forger failed to do in destroying Parnell ( pronounced Parn'l and not ParNELL) happened.
http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/the_tls/article4213535.ece

Called Katie by her friends, Kitty was slang for prostitute, and mud stuck and it was what she was called by her detractors .

She was not the first foreign woman to so influence Irelands future, Diarmuid McMurrough deposed King of Leinster invited the Normans into Ireland on the back of "kidnapping" the wife of the Prince of Briefne, Dervorgilla.

Some accounts have her eloping and bringing her furniture and cattle (dowry) with her.

Tiernan O’Rourke,Prince of Briefne and her husband went ape and raised an army.

http://www.historyireland.com/volumes/volume11/issue4/features/?id=290

So , Willie O'Shea's reaction was probably predictable.

He had a reasonably comfortable upbringing and attended Cardinal Newmans Catholic College for a period( he exasperated Newman who refered to him as "That O'Shea) before going to Trinity and then into the Army.

So who were Willie & Katie, and what of their family (ies) & what were their lives like. ???

MarchDub

CDfm wrote: »

She was not the first foreign woman to so influence Irelands future, Diarmuid McMurrough deposed King of Leinster invited the Normans into Ireland on the back of "kidnapping" the wife of the Prince of Briefne, Dervorgilla.

Some accounts have her eloping and bringing her furniture and cattle (dowry) with her.

Tiernan O’Rourke,Prince of Briefne and her husband went ape and raised an army.

Why are you calling Dervorgilla 'foreign'? She was a sound Irish woman who threw over her husband - and then McMurrough - and ended up in a nunnery where she must have regaled all with her life story.

CDfm

MarchDub wrote: »

Why are you calling Dervorgilla 'foreign'?

My mistake - Meath you say :eek:

MarchDub

CDfm wrote: »

My mistake - Meath you say :eek:

Yeah - foreign enough I suppose!:D

Anyway, thanks for the link to the Times review. I don't know that new book so I'm not sure what's in it but Katharine O'Shea's book and her own accounts of the events I do know. I find her a sympathetic figure.

The whole mess of the Parnell divorce had huge repercussions for Ireland. O'Shea's claim that he just found out about the relationship prior to filing for divorce doesn't hold up. Parnell and Katharine had 3 children together by then. Parnell's mistake - IMO - was that he handled it badly within the Irish Party. He thought he had a private life that he could keep to himself. Didn't turn out that way for him.

Parnell's [really Home Rule's] enemies within the Catholic Church, the English Conservative Party - and some Liberals - all combined to muster a fake outrage at his private life. They destroyed him - and Home Rule.

Everyone comes away with blood on their hands. And so far the historic record hasn't yielded up why O'Shea acted when he did. But there is endless speculation.

CDfm

Thanks MD.

You are right - Willie O'Shea comes across to me as a bit of a hustler and probably would have got on well in Ireland during the celtic tiger years.

So what I will try to do is take a sympathetic look at them but where to start.

The first thing to do would be to refer to her as Katie and not Kitty and Willie's life and those around them.

As for Dervorgilla, she comes accross as a brazen hussey with the morals of a Viking and its about time her duplicity was exposed as the real cause of the Norman invasion. She was from Meath and Parnells constituency was Meath - coincidence - I think not :pac:

CDfm

An old saying i "He would try the patience of a saint" -well Willie actually did - St John Henry Newman as an early student in his Catholic University.

The beginning
The Catholic University opened its doors on the feast of St Malachy, 3 November 1854. On that day the names of seventeen students were entered on the register; the first name entered was that of Daniel O'Connell, grandson of the Liberator. The following Sunday, to a grand total of four officers and fifteen students, Newman gave an address entitled 'What are we here for?' Conscious of the small number with which they were beginning their great endeavour, he prophesied that when they were old they would look back with great pride and pleasure to St Malachy's Day, 1854.
Newman was a great believer in the idea that his students should stay in independent, self-supporting halls or colleges in small groups under a dean and private tutors. Each house was to have its own chapel and common table. With this purpose in mind the university opened with three houses: 86 St Stephen's Green, with was known as St Patrick's or University House, under the care of Rev. Dr Michael Flannery; 16 Harcourt Street, known as St Lawrence's under the care of Rev. Dr James Quinn, who also had his school there; and Newman's own house, 6 Harcourt Street, known as St Mary's under Newman's personal supervision.

The early students
Of the eight original students in Newman's own home, two were Irish, two English, two Scottish and two French. Among them were a French viscount, and Irish baronet (Sir Reginald Barnewall), the son of a French countess, the grandson of a Scottish marquis, and the son of an English lord. The rector felt that this was a good start and one that should raise the tone and image of the university and attract others. Later were added to his care two Belgian princes and a Polish count.





The one native-born middle-class Irishman to be admitted to Newman's house was the sixteen-year-old only son of a solicitor from Limerick by the name of O'Shea. 'That O'Shea' as Newman called the inmate of his front drawing-room, lasted for half a year only, but half way through that period he was causing the rector much trouble. 'My youths, all through that O'Shea, or rather in the person of O'Shea, are giving me trouble - and I don't know how I possibly can stand another year. I think he must go at the end of the session.' The troublesome student left and went to Trinity instead, but his mischief-making was far from over. It might be said that the rector had unerringly recognised the boy was to be father to the man; for as Newman lay dying in August 1890, his former student, Captain William O'Shea, was at the centre of the divorce scandal that was to destroy the political career of Charles Stewart Parnell.

http://www.ucd.ie/president/universityhistory/

Following the education of a gentleman and mixing with the nobility in the Catholic University and Trinity, Willie eventually joined the army which was more about making connections for later in life.

jonniebgood1

CDfm wrote: »

An old saying i "He would try the patience of a saint" -well Willie actually did - St John Henry Newman as an early student in his Catholic University.

O'Shea may come across shallow to put it mildly in regard of his questionable motives in the timing of his seeking divorce. On the other hand, He did also as a public representative speak on behalf of Land reforms in Ireland. His mistake (like Parnells) was to mix public and private life. He is perhaps given more burden of responsibility than is due as the smears on Parnell were contrived by others for their own interests (including those in the Home rule party).

Reference verse 4 "betrayal".

Come gather round me, Parnellites; by W.B Yeats (1938):

Come gather round me, Parnellites,
And praise our chosen man;
Stand upright on your legs awhile,
Stand upright while you can,
For soon we lie where he is laid,
And he is underground;
Come fill up all those glasses
And pass the bottle round.

And here's a cogent reason,
And I have many more,
He fought the might of England
And saved the Irish poor,
Whatever good a farmer's got
He brought it all to pass;
And here's another reason,
That parnell loved a lass.

And here's a final reason,
He was of such a kind
Every man that sings a song
Keeps Parnell in his mind.
For Parnell was a proud man,
No prouder trod the ground,
And a proud man's a lovely man,
So pass the bottle round.

The Bishops and the party
That tragic story made,
A husband that had sold his wife
And after that betrayed;
But stories that live longest
Are sung above the glass,
And Parnell loved his country
And parnell loved his lass.

CDfm

I have read extracts from Hansard where O'Shea spoke on the Land Acts especially on evicted tenants. I was on of those procedural things that has a bearing on the law and he definately had a good grasp of parlimentary procedure and skills- sufficient to have evicted tenants included in the Act. So he was not stupid.

He also developed clientism with the Fenian elements. As an army captain he had access to society in England and could develop friendships with the Liberals.

There is also his bizarre behaviour at the Kilmainham Treaty and I wonder if Parnell wasn't sending him of on wild goose chases at times to facilitate his assignations with Katie.

It clearly wasn't a menage a trois and there is going to be some element where Willie was the unwitting dupe in all of this and Charles and Katie the puppetmasters.

I wonder what Willies children thought.

EDIT - In fairness, WB Yeats" Parnellites" poem above may be an excuse for his own behavior and the tolerance of his wife George must have been stretched -he was an old codger .It could be retitled "But George, lots of famous people have affairs, Parnell did" He was on holiday in France when he died with Edith Shackleton Heald his lover accompanying them. Maybe George got the last laugh as there is doubt as to whether he is buried in Drumcliffe and not another man who died there Alfred Hollis.

CDfm

Here is a nice summary from a genealogy researcher descended from on of Katie's maid's.

Nothing is known at present of how Lizzie began her life “up the back stairs”, only a few tantalising glimpses from family anecdotes. The quest began back about 1950 with a remark by Ada. She was asked what life was like when she was a young girl, and said that her mother took her to tea with Mrs O’Shea. Then Ada added, “That was long before the scandal with Parnell.” This was a complete mystery as the two families hardly moved in the same social circles!

It wasn't till 1999 that there was any light thrown on this - and it provided even more puzzles. Her great-niece and god-daughter Betty said that Lizzie was “personal maid to Kitty O’Shea!”

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The story of ‘Kitty O’Shea’ hit the headlines in the 1890s and undermined the Irish bid for Home Rule for many years. The story is a well-known one and more details can be found in many books and encyclopaedias. She was never 'Kitty' but 'Kate' and was not Irish though it suited the press to imply that she was.

Katherine Page Wood, born 1846, was the 13th child and 6th daughter of Sir John Page Wood of Rivenhall Place, Essex, at one time chaplain in the royal household. Katherine was known as Katie to the family, never Kitty, which was a newspaper invention, nor was she Irish or Catholic. She married firstly William Henry O’Shea whose father was a Catholic solicitor in Dublin. He became a cornet of the 18th Hussars and retired as a Captain. Willie gambled and spent money recklessly. He had to sell his string of racehorses and their estate near Stevenage and then they were constantly on the move.

In 1871 the family were bankrupt and lived for a time in Brighton. However Mrs O’Shea’s brother-in-law bailed them out and for a while they returned to their busy social life which included entertaining on a rather lavish scale.

During this period of the early seventies the O'Sheas moved four times in four years. They had three children, Gerard, (or Gaynor as he appears on the 1881 Census), born in Brighton, Norah and Carmen. They were for a few years in Beaufort Gardens, Chelsea, but had to move to a smaller house on the Harrow Road as they became increasingly insolvent, and then Hastings. They often stayed with Lady Emma, Katie’s mother at Rivenhall or visited Emma or Anna, Katie’s sisters and particularly her aunt Maria, wife of Benjamin Wood, and known as “Aunt Ben”, on whom they became rather dependent financially. Maria Wood was wealthy and rather eccentric, but childless. She did not approve of Willie but was very fond of Katie, treating her in many ways like a daughter. She often rescued them from disaster and it is said that she urged Katie several times to leave her worthless husband. For a while Katie O’Shea made daily visits to her Aunt Ben at Eltham Park where she had leased a large house, (Crown property) every day. Though Willie did continue to visit this was the beginning of their separation, especially as he continued to involve himself in other wild business ventures, sometimes abroad.

If Lizzie Cope was "personal maid" at this time there are certain inconsistencies between the two "accounts".

The early 1870s can be ruled out. Katie O’Shea’s personal maid, a French girl called Caroline, who had been with her from the beginning, remained loyal when they sold Bennington Park and the racehorses and was still with her in Chelsea. Moreover Lizzie would still have been at school!

Ada said that “Mrs O’Sheas two little boys played the piano.” Her memory could have been faulty here as Mrs O’Shea had only the one boy, Gerard. Boys at that time were not ‘breeched’ – put into trousers – until the age of four or five but were dressed just like their sisters. Assuming that a child might start learning the piano at the age of four – enough to play a very simple little piece – it could be that Ada simply mistook Norah for a boy. The visit could then be dated to 1877 or 1878 as Norah was born in January 1873.

Ada’s mother, Sarah Alecia Cope, née Arrowsmith, died of pneumonia on Oct. 18th 1878 after being ill for two months so the summer of 1878 is the last possible date for this event. At that time Lizzie was 15, Ada 10, Gerard 8, and Norah 5. The O’Shea family were already installed at North Park, Eltham which would be fairly easy to reach by train from Waterloo. The coffee shop was only a short step from Waterloo Station. However, Lizzie would be rather young to be a ‘lady’s maid’.

A few years later, in 1881at North Park, another girl, Mary Frances, aged 28, is recorded on the Census as Katie’s personal maid. It is just possible that Lizzie fitted in between these other two. She was with Mrs O’Shea at Seaford and “paraded in furs” along the Promenade, so that was presumably in winter! There is another possibility which would put the visit much later - and still "well before the scandal." There is no firm record of Lizzie on the 1881 Census, only a girl of the right age, Elizabeth M. Cope in service in St Helier, Jersey. The initial 'M' is wrong, possibly no more than a simple mistake, a nd if this is still Lizzie, it could explain the 'folk memory' passed down by more than one branch of the family that there was a connection with the Channel Islands. No other possible evidence of such a 'connection' has been found.

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It was in 1880 when Willie O'Shea was elected as an Irish member for County Clare that Katie met Charles Stuart Parnell. She had been instrumental in furthering her husband's parliamentary career which naturally brought her into close contact with the Irish party in the Commons. Parnell, born in 1846 in Co.Wicklow in Ireland, led the struggle for Irish Home Rule. He had been an MP since 1875. Soon he was showing himself a master of disguise as he followed Katie around the places she stayed in Brighton and elsewhere. He even visited her often at Eltham from 1881 onwards. There is some doubt about whether Willie knew of their ‘arrangements’. It is possible that he may have found them ‘convenient’.

Captain O’Shea, as he liked to be known, helped Parnell in his campaign for the leadership of the Irish National Party. Their association continued through the eighties. Katie was heavily involved as intermediary between Gladstone and Parnell but relations between her husband and her lover were increasingly strained. In the 1880s she had three more daughters, the first of whom died in infancy. They were all christened with the O’Shea surname though they were undoubtedly Parnell’s children.

Ada claimed that the ‘tea’ incident was “long before the scandal”. This could simply mean that it wasn’t ‘headline news' – yet! If it took place in the eighties rather than the seventies the ‘mother’ referred to could have been Ada’s stepmother. Her father, Henry George Cope (senior) had married his second wife, Sophia, in early 1879, though he himself died on January 28th 1881 after being ill for two months with pneumonia. Sophia survived him for many years. Ada continued to live at home until at least the summer of 1889 when she herself was married.

Katie’s affair was not known to the public until the nineties. As Gerard O’Shea was ten in 1880 he was sent away to school, and hardly fits the description of 'small boy'. (As he grew up he was increasingly sympathetic towards his father and rather hostile towards his mother.) The scandal became public knowledge at last after the death of Maria Wood who died in 1889, leaving her considerable property to her niece. Captain O’Shea, seeing that he was to get none of it, filed for divorce with Parnell as co-respondent and this was granted without being contested, in November 1890. Parnell married Katie O’Shea on 26th June 1891 in Brighton. It was there, at their house in Walsingham Terrace that he died four months later, from pneumonia.

Katie Parnell as she now was, died on April 22nd, 1905 at Littlehampton.


http://www.barbsweb.co.uk/history/lizzie.htm

MarchDub

The Irish Party did indeed let down Parnell. In 1890 after the divorce verdict they re-elected him leader at their meeting on Nov 25 - but when the Catholic Bishops came out strongly against him, as did the Liberals and Conservatives in England and the English press, they dropped him at a follow up meeting in December. It was betrayal, as Yeats declared it IMO. It soured not only Yeats but more especially James Joyce who railed and raged against Irish self-hated in all of his work. A point that is missed by many about Joyce. "Ireland is an old sow who eats her young" - is how Joyce described this trait of national self-hatred.

Parnell had apparently lied about his relationship to fellow members of the Irish Party - possibly to protect Katherine or maybe because he felt it was his private life and no one's business. No record exists of why he behaved the way he did. Most especially this untruth was claimed by Michael Davitt - who was amongst the first to urge him to be set aside as leader.

CDfm

The other issue is when did Willie know, and was he happy - he challenged Parnell to a duel.

It also seems that Katie did inherit money.

Katharine first met Parnell in 1880, when she was married to but already separated from Captain William O'Shea, a Catholic Nationalist MP for Galway borough. Out of her family connection to the Liberal Party she acted as liaison between Parnell and Gladstone during negotiations prior to the introduction of the First Irish Home Rule Bill in April 1886. Parnell moved to her home in Eltham, Surrey, that summer; three of Katharine's children were fathered by Parnell, the first died early in 1882, the others were Claire (1883-1909) and Katharine (1884-1947).
Captain O'Shea knew about the affair, challenged Parnell to a duel in 1881 and initially forbid Katharine to see him, although she claimed that he encouraged her in the relationship. However, he kept publicly quiet for several years. His reasons for filing for divorce in 1889 was a matter for speculation. He may have had political motives. Alternatively, it is known that he had been hoping for an inheritance from Katharine's rich aunt whom he expected to die earlier, but when she died in 1889 her money was left in trust to cousins.
Although their relationship was common knowledge among politicians, public knowledge of the affair in an England governed by " Victorian morality" with a "nonconformist conscience" created a huge scandal and led to Parnell's being deserted by a majority of his own Irish Parliamentary Party and to his downfall as its leader. Katharine and Parnell married shortly after her divorce from Captain O'Shea. With Parnell's political life and his health essentially ruined, his physical life ended at the age of 45 in Brighton in October 1891, less than four months after their marriage. The cause was most likely coronary heart disease inherited from his grandfather and father who also died prematurely.

There are various accounts , but, it seems that Katie did inherit money and her family felt she manipulated the rich Aunt and took her to court. She fought the case and had to share the estate and pay costs too.

If Willie O'Shea was not wealthy, neither was Parnell, in 1883 he was the benificiary of a national collection of £38,000 to get him out of debt and put his finances in order.

It may have seemed to Willie that having gotten the lady, that his lifestyle would now suffer.

It could be that O'Shea his reputation in tatters and facing a lifestyle change just got mad and wanted to get even.

jonniebgood1

MarchDub wrote: »

Parnell had apparently lied about his relationship to fellow members of the Irish Party - possibly to protect Katherine or maybe because he felt it was his private life and no one's business. No record exists of why he behaved the way he did. Most especially this untruth was claimed by Michael Davitt - who was amongst the first to urge him to be set aside as leader.

If Parnell did put his personal situation before the movement he was leading (as much of the evidence suggest) it is a far greater scandal than the divorce issues that on the face of it, brought him down. Could this risking of the home rule movement be a reason why his own party refused to back him? He should have known O'Shea was out to get him after the Times court case where O'shea appeared on side of the Times against Parnell. This is reinforced further by refusing to resign as other leading figures such as William O'Brien had told him was neccessary, thus he ensured the party/ movement would split.

CDfm

MarchDub wrote: »

The Irish Party did indeed let down Parnell. In 1890 after the divorce verdict they re-elected him leader at their meeting on Nov 25 - but when the Catholic Bishops came out strongly against him, as did the Liberals and Conservatives in England and the English press, they dropped him at a follow up meeting in December.

Ah cmon MD - Parnell is not the first and wont be the last politician to be ruined by sexual indiscretion.

It was betrayal, as Yeats declared it IMO. It soured not only Yeats but more especially James Joyce who railed and raged against Irish self-hated in all of his work. A point that is missed by many about Joyce. "Ireland is an old sow who eats her young" - is how Joyce described this trait of national self-hatred.

Joyce, was hardly self sufficient himself and was from the same class that gave us Willie O'Shea.

My own view of Joyce's writting is soft porn masquerading as high class literature and a bit too "readers wives" for my taste.

Parnell had apparently lied about his relationship to fellow members of the Irish Party - possibly to protect Katherine or maybe because he felt it was his private life and no one's business. No record exists of why he behaved the way he did. Most especially this untruth was claimed by Michael Davitt - who was amongst the first to urge him to be set aside as leader.

A politicians primary duty is to stay in power and it is their raison d'etre. Bertie Ahern did with tribunal investigations and Brian Cowan is now. Parnell did too.

Also, as a landlord and part of the ruling classes he would benefit from the Land Acts.

In political parties, you have competition for leadership and maybe he felt that if he stepped aside he would loose the woman.

Stranger things have happened.

MarchDub

CDfm wrote: »

Ah cmon MD - Parnell is not the first and wont be the last politician to be ruined by sexual indiscretion.



Joyce, was hardly self sufficient himself and was from the same class that gave us Willie O'Shea.

My own view of Joyce's writing is soft porn masquerading as high class literature and a bit too "readers wives" for my taste.





A politicians primary duty is to stay in power and it is their raison d'etre. Bertie Ahern did with tribunal investigations and Brian Cowan is now. Parnell did too.

Also, as a landlord and part of the ruling classes he would benefit from the Land Acts.

In political parties, you have competition for leadership and maybe he felt that if he stepped aside he would loose the woman.

Stranger things have happened.

I'm not expressing any personal opinions here - just trying to lay down some of what's on the record. Of course, Parnell was not the first nor the last to be ruined by 'scandal'. I would not suggest otherwise.

And as for Joyce - his art was very much influenced by the fall of Parnell. It's as if he couldn't wash it out of his mind as regards Ireland.

CDfm

To read an account of Willies maiden speech in 1880 on Hansard here is a link and it starts around line 1140.

http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/commons/1880/jun/29/second-reading-adjourned-debate-on#S3V0253P0_18800629_HOC_70

Around page 167 here read an account of the duel and Willie finding Parnells portmanteau and Parnells note to Katie "would you enquire of O'Shea where he left my luggage" That had to hurt.

http://books.google.ie/books?id=mD1QNISfkKgC&pg=PA167&lpg=PA167&dq=parnells+portmanteau&source=bl&ots=J1xQzPX63W&sig=DSXTtdgaSzrzygdYdFgNihDSRj0&hl=en&ei=F5QDTZinJsuChQf42sntBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CBoQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q&f=false

CDfm

MarchDub wrote: »

I'm not expressing any personal opinions here - just trying to lay down some of what's on the record. Of course, Parnell was not the first nor the last to be ruined by 'scandal'. I would not suggest otherwise.

And as for Joyce - his art was very much influenced by the fall of Parnell. It's as if he couldn't wash it out of his mind as regards Ireland.

Of course, Joyce's impenitrable prose is probably the reason why his sexually charged material in Ulysses was able to get published and Lawrences Lady Chatterly's Lover had to wait another quarter of a century.

It could not corrupt the minds of young girls cos they could not read it.

Here is a link to the publication and this was 40 or so years after Parnells death and it was america and not Ireland. You can hardly blame the Irish bishops for that.

http://www.libidomag.com/nakedbrunch/archive/unbanning03.html

Maybe the uncrowned king thought he could do as he pleased and maybe the Irish Bishops had little power here.

Dont forget you did not have universal suffrage for 30 years yet and only around a third of adult males had the vote.

MarchDub

Yeah - I know all about the court case re Joyce in the USA. But that is taking s off topic.

The evidence - much of it in letters - suggests that the Irish bishops were really not so much influenced by the so called 'scandal' of the divorce as political motivation. Remember the Pope had condemned the Hole Rule movement and tactics in 1888.

CDfm

MarchDub wrote: »

Yeah - I know all about the court case re Joyce in the USA. But that is taking s off topic.

The evidence - much of it in letters - suggests that the Irish bishops were really so much influenced by the so called 'scandal' of the divorce as political motivation. Remember the Pope had condemned the Hole Rule movement and tactics in 1888.

Its a bit off topic and this is more about the people themselves . I included Joyce really as Willie O'Shea could be probably compared to Joyce's father and people would get more of a feeling for the period and his education etc.

In that way, it gives some context to the period and values not being exclusively Irish or the Bishops but probably universal middle class and voters views and probably not only Ireland but worldwide.

Also both Yeats and Joyce were Boho artists so their values were different to Irish Middle Class voters anyway and not representative.

Anyway, Parnell did not take up Willie's challenge of the duel and add that to his Piggott testimony and neither Katie or Charles should have been a bit suprised at Willie's subsequent action and motivation.

PatsytheNazi

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

O'Shea may come across shallow to put it mildly in regard of his questionable motives in the timing of his seeking divorce. On the other hand, He did also as a public representative speak on behalf of Land reforms in Ireland. His mistake (like Parnells) was to mix public and private life. He is perhaps given more burden of responsibility than is due as the smears on Parnell were contrived by others for their own interests (including those in the Home rule party).

Reference verse 4 "betrayal".

Yes one of those who led the smears against Parnell was Corkman Timothy Healy who later was appointed by British to the post of the first Governor General of the Free State. I think according to Tim Pat Coogan's Micheal Collins, Healy was under secret investigation before Collins's death as having been a British spy in bringing about Parnell's down fall and the disastorous consequences for the Home Rule Party.

CDfm

PatsytheNazi wrote: »

Yes one of those who led the smears against Parnell was Corkman Timothy Healy who later was appointed by British to the post of the first Governor General of the Free State. I think according to Tim Pat Coogan's Micheal Collins, Healy was under secret investigation before Collins's death as having been a British spy in bringing about Parnell's down fall and the disastorous consequences for the Home Rule Party.

I think you have a very low opinion of British Intelligence Patsy .

Why would they have needed Timothy Healy when Willie was there and available.

Because of the relationship between Charles & Katie , they could take him down at any time.

CDfm

So what did the children think

The Uncrowned King of Ireland. This biography provides a fascinating insight into the domestic affair between Parnell and Katherine O' Shea, but is surprisingly vague on key areas of their relationship, for example, their children. However, it has been suggested that Gerard O' Shea (Katherine's son by Cpt. William O' Shea) stepped in and edited the book without his mother's knowledge, in order to preserve his late father's reputation.

http://www.funtrivia.com/en/subtopics/Charles-Stewart-Parnell-272344.html

(this link gives a nice bullet point chronological synopsis of events for those who know little history)

The actual divorce proceedings are here and are around 30 pages -so a short read really

http://books.google.ie/books?id=c-syAAAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=captain+gerard+o%27shea&source=bl&ots=Xidzue5_d0&sig=YxLiGwa6daT9-H7Wm8aXZMIcXzk&hl=en&ei=QKEDTbqwGMqwhQeZ8ZXuBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAzg8#v=onepage&q=captain%20gerard%20o%27shea&f=false

What Gladstone thought of the affair you can judge by this and his warning to Llyod George

When Lloyd George, then Chancellor of the Exchequer with every chance of succeeding to the premiership, embarked on an affair with Frances Stevenson, he gave her a biography of the Irish leader Charles Stewart Parnell as a dreadful warning. The obvious message was that he was not going to let his career be wrecked, as Parnell's had been by the revelation of his adultery with the wife of a parliamentary colleague, Katharine O'Shea, in 1890. The second moral of Parnell's downfall was that it is always the woman who pays the heavier price.

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/reviews/irelands-misfortune-by-elisabeth-kehoe-832691.html

PatsytheNazi

CDfm wrote: »

I think you have a very low opinion of British Intelligence Patsy .

Why would they have needed Timothy Healy when Willie was there and available.

Because of the relationship between Charles & Katie , they could take him down at any time.

Timothy Healy was supposed to be a life long friend and political ally long before the scandal :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:.

CDfm

PatsytheNazi wrote: »

Timothy Healy was supposed to be a life long friend and political ally long before the scandal :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:.

No he wasn't - he was Parnells secretary but was not part of Parnell's inner circle. A former clerk and journalist and very astute.

Parnell put him forward for Wexford and John Redmond (whose deceased father had held the seat and planned to contest the election) stood aside.

Furthermore, Healy led a campaign against Willie O'Shea's selection for Galway in 1886 and only gave way when Parnell arrived and personally intervened.

So maybe Healy felt Parnell had lied to him or misled him.

So when Parnell asked "Who is the master of the party?", Healy asked "Aye, but who is the mistress of the party?" which is as sharp and caustic one liner as ever there was and indicative of his quick intelligence.

Healy felt the Alliance with the Liberals was worth more than Parnells leadership. It was politics and maybe Parnell's ego was too big to give way and he had shown some disasterous judgement.

CDfm

Another aside, Gerard O'Shea , Katie & Willie's son was protective of his fathers reputation.

After everyone involved had died there was a planned play which depicted Willie as accepting a bribe from the Times newspaper and conspiring to connect Parnell with Fenian activity.

He managed to have the play changed and made representations to the Lord Chamberlains office and in doing so was aided by the Woods family his maternal cousins.

http://books.google.ie/books?id=4cEk2p-eEYgC&pg=PA165&lpg=PA165&dq=parnell+play+and+gerard+o%27shea&source=bl&ots=2iYAFPmO_X&sig=lZWfppljkr5h2MzjEUVriD5EZNM&hl=en&ei=r7IDTanGCImHhQfr6NHtBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CBkQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=parnell%20play%20and%20gerard%20o%27shea&f=false

Here is a link I have come accross to a Katie & Charles descendants

http://www.politics.ie/history/92233-parnells-only-grandson-assheton.html

There was also a daughter who lived with Katie till her death and I read somewhere that she changed her name to Wood - katies maiden name -after her death and through her cousins obtained a position as governess.

So the money and inheritance was gone at this stage.

CDfm

This was someone I didn't know existed but he took over Charles seat in South Meath and here is his Wiki entry

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Howard_Parnell

He secured political appointments as a Dublin Marshall and the Register of Pawnbrokers in Ireland.

jonniebgood1

CDfm wrote: »

So when Parnell asked "Who is the master of the party?", Healy asked "Aye, but who is the mistress of the party?" which is as sharp and caustic one liner as ever there was and indicative of his quick intelligence.

Healy felt the Alliance with the Liberals was worth more than Parnells leadership. It was politics and maybe Parnell's ego was too big to give way and he had shown some disasterous judgement.

Anyone would be pround of that retort. It was later written that Healy and Parnell had almost come to blows in comittee room 15 and after the affair was over he wrote to his wife with exuberance "There is exultation in the party today at getting rid of Parnell". He also described Parnell in the context of the O'Shea divorce case as "the real, sole, manifest author of the evil", quite difinitive. Were his motives also self serving or was he jealous of the attention that Parnell got?

http://books.google.ie/books?id=VPKEBJQwVHcC&printsec=frontcover&dq=The+Parnell+split,+1890-91&hl=en&ei=q7gDTYKuGIXusgbrmbiICg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCQQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false (note approx page 50 and also chapter 5 regarding Healy)

CDfm

Parnell had two sisters Anna & Fanny who were founder members of the Ladies Land League.

Anna who died in 1911 wrote a scathing account of the Land League called The Tale of a Great Sham( published posthumously in 1986) and was quite bitter about the organistions treatment .

She is forgotten largely but was a woman of no small ability and this was admired by the Fenian John O'Leary who thought she would have done a better job with the land issue than Charles did.


The Ladies Land League was disolved with Parnell's connivance.

But Archbishop Croke of Cashel came to their defence. Several influential persons, including priests, offered their houses for meetings and protected them from the police but others kept their distance.
Anna Parnell felt that the efficiency of the Ladies' Land League was resented by the men:
I think now that, added to their natural resentment at our having done what they asked us to do, they soon acquired a much stronger ground for their annoyance in the discovery that we were taking the Land League seriously and thought that not paying rent was intended to mean not paying it.
Anna Parnell, Tale of a great sham, (ed. Dana Hearne), Dublin, 1986, p.90. Parnell was released from Kilmainham Jail in May 1882 and initially praised the women for their work but changed his mind soon after. The Ladies' Land League was to be brought firmly under male control and it was eventually dissolved in a humiliating manner, leaving a legacy of bitterness and resentment amongst the women. Anna Parnell wrote an angry account of her experience in Tale of a great sham, which was published in 1986, long after her death.
The Fenian John O'Leary told Maud Gonne later that while he questioned the methods of the Ladies' Land League, they were really suppressed because they were 'honester and more sincere than the men.' Andrew Kettle, staunch supporter of Charles Stewart Parnell said Anna had, a better knowledge of the lights and shades of Irish peasant life, of the real economic conditions of the country and of the social and political forces which had to work out the freedom of Ireland than any person, man or woman, I have ever met ... Anna Parnell would have worked the Land League revolution to a much better conclusion than her great brother.
Quoted in Margaret Ward, Unmanageable revolutionaries, London, 1983, p.14.

http://www.scoilnet.ie/womeninhistory/content/unit3/ladies_land_league.html

Maybe this indicates that Parnell had a bit of a vicious streak about him and could lash out against those close to him, and, could be very manipulative to those close to him.

The difference between Anna and Timothy Healy is that he hit back.

CDfm

Tim Healy described Parnell as an "arrant liar" in letters

http://books.google.ie/books?id=NY0Kx1vzx2AC&pg=PA462&lpg=PA462&dq=%22gerard+o%27shea%22+son+of+william+o%27shea&source=bl&ots=mdLCJFYd8M&sig=OnhuJy3a32oXuJuBlA19nj1Gh90&hl=en&ei=D88DTdCrOMi0hAem95WlDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CDwQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=%22gerard%20o%27shea%22%20son%20of%20william%20o%27shea&f=false

There is a reference to a letter by Gerard to the Times objecting to Parnell being described as a "victim rather than the destroyer of a happy home" by William O'Brien.

jonniebgood1

CDfm wrote: »

The Tale of a Great Sham( published posthumously in 1986)
.

By accounts of Kitty O'Shea this could have been the name for her Memoirs!!!:D

CDfm

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

By accounts of Kitty O'Shea this could have been the name for her Memoirs!!!:D

Tsk tsk

The biggest surprise to me was that there was an inheritance and that there was a dispute between Katie and her siblings that ended up in court.

I was always under the impression that her aunt had left her money to cousins and she had no money and that was the reason for the divorce.

There is a reference here to a deal where Willie was to be paid £20,000 for a divorce and couldn't wait for the money

http://books.google.ie/books?id=40eTvcIfFZcC&pg=PA130&lpg=PA130&dq=willie+o%27shea+and+%C2%A320,000&source=bl&ots=wiJOBpI22N&sig=_r5H5QXMVtBA5bNy9h8BJs03vxU&hl=en&ei=6NoDTe_VKIq7hAfmxJ3uBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q&f=false

It is also suggested elsewhere that Willie recieved a payoff from the Woods family to divorce to aid there court case in the inheritence case.

So the obvious question would be how did Willie survive post divorce ?

jonniebgood1

His (Parnells) colleagues in the movement seemed to derive great enjoyment out of his downfall:
Davitt during a Sligo by-election:

Eight hours of work and eight hours of play, eight hours in bed with Kitty O'Shea

This related to Parnell's quest for standard working hours.

Healy did so on several occasions.
Irish Catholic sneered

the guilty leers of Kitty

To me this is one of (a)opportunism, (b)media hyped frenzy (of the type we see alot of now but I thought less common 120 years ago), or (c)That Parnell had alot of enemies built up over the years and they were glad to make a mockery of him.