ESB supply cable moved. Size of meter tails?

GreySquirrel

The story so far.

The ESB supply cable from the overhead ESB cables came into the porch via the front of the porch - not through the wall. The meter was in the porch.

We got a new front door at the front of the porch and the ESB cable had to be moved to come through the wall to the meter. Although the meter hadn't moved it was now inside the house in the hall.

I phoned the ESB several times and eventually the ESB man (hereinafter called "the Man") came out. After looking at the meter and the route of the cable, the Man decided the cable could come through the wall to the existing meter. He said I would have to drill a 1" hole through the wall. The Man then decided that the lads would have a drill and they would drill the hole.

So far so good.

I got a phone call from the team and they arranged to come out in two days. The next day, a man arrived in a yellow ESB van. He was going to do the work. I told him a team was coming the next day. He said "grand" and went off.

Next day, a two man team from a contractor arrived. After much grumbling about having to drill the hole and connect the meter tails, and the earth to the ESB fuse, they installed a new meter and put the ESB cable through the wall. They connected the tails and earth.

As they were leaving, they said something like I should have someone look at the cables from the meter. Very cryptic.

I'm guessing they were talking about the size of the cables.

On a standard supply (12kVA?), what size should the meter tails be? And what size should the earth from the ESB fuse to my fuse board be?

Bruthal

GreySquirrel wrote: »

The story so far.

The ESB supply cable from the overhead ESB cables came into the porch via the front of the porch - not through the wall. The meter was in the porch.

We got a new front door at the front of the porch and the ESB cable had to be moved to come through the wall to the meter. Although the meter hadn't moved it was now inside the house in the hall.

I phoned the ESB several times and eventually the ESB man (hereinafter called "the Man") came out. After looking at the meter and the route of the cable, the Man decided the cable could come through the wall to the existing meter. He said I would have to drill a 1" hole through the wall. The Man then decided that the lads would have a drill and they would drill the hole.

So far so good.

I got a phone call from the team and they arranged to come out in two days. The next day, a man arrived in a yellow ESB van. He was going to do the work. I told him a team was coming the next day. He said "grand" and went off.

Next day, a two man team from a contractor arrived. After much grumbling about having to drill the hole and connect the meter tails, and the earth to the ESB fuse, they installed a new meter and put the ESB cable through the wall. They connected the tails and earth.

As they were leaving, they said something like I should have someone look at the cables from the meter. Very cryptic.

I'm guessing they were talking about the size of the cables.

On a standard supply (12kVA?), what size should the meter tails be? And what size should the earth from the ESB fuse to my fuse board be?

16 square tails and a 10 square earth.

GreySquirrel

Is there a way to know the cross section area of the cables from the diameter of the cable including insulation?

Bruthal

GreySquirrel wrote: »

Is there a way to know the cross section area of the cables from the diameter of the cable including insulation?

The diameter is about 7mm thick including the insulation.

GreySquirrel

robbie7730 wrote: »

The diameter is about 7mm thick including the insulation.

Is that the 16 mm squared?

Bruthal

GreySquirrel wrote: »

Is that the 16 mm squared?

Yes 7mm for the 16 square. around 5mm for the 10 square.
Best way to measure is put the tape at the side of the cable, use the 100mm mark as your zero, as the end piece of tapes is always loose and not great for small mm measurements like that.

GreySquirrel

robbie7730 wrote: »

Yes 7mm for the 16 square. around 5mm for the 10 square.
Best way to measure is put the tape at the side of the cable, use the 100mm mark as your zero, as the end piece of tapes is always loose and not great for small mm measurements like that.

I know what you mean about the loose thingy. I have a few rulers marked in mm so I'll use them.

I'll let you know how I get on, it maybe next week though. I'm escaping tonight, cabin fever.

GreySquirrel

GreySquirrel wrote: »

I know what you mean about the loose thingy. I have a few rulers marked in mm so I'll use them.

I'll let you know how I get on, it maybe next week though. I'm escaping tonight, cabin fever.

Well I got out last night and ordered the new carpet (see other posts about rings and spurs. And the redecorating is on the DIY forum).

While we were out, we went on to B&Q while the M50 was ok. Bought some trunking and back boxes. I got the trunking with the adhesive on the back. It better work cos it was over twice the price of the plain stuff.

Stopped at McD's on way home for a Terry's Chocolate Orange McFlurry. Yum.

GreySquirrel

Who is responsible for connecting the main protective earth from the main earthing terminal to the ESB cut-out?

Davy

GreySquirrel wrote: »

Who is responsible for connecting the main protective earth from the main earthing terminal to the ESB cut-out?

Your contractor. The cutout is designed so it can be done by the contractor

GreySquirrel

Davy wrote: »

Your contractor. The cutout is designed so it can be done by the contractor

And they work on that live?! Or do they wait until the ESB man comes out?

I found your reference in ET 207: 2003 (I presume that refers to the 3rd Edition Rules?)

Davy

GreySquirrel wrote: »

And they work on that live?! Or do they wait until the ESB man comes out?

I found your reference in ET 207: 2003 (I presume that refers to the 3rd Edition Rules?)

The cutout is a sealed unit, apart from this one ope for the earthing connection. The phase is live, but cant become in contact with it unless you damage the unit maliciously

M cebee

yes indeed- the contractor connects the 'main protective conductor'

you should know all this -if you're going to be connecting:pac:

and of course both phase and neutral are 'live' conductors-so technically i think you are connecting the MPC to a live conductor

GreySquirrel

Davy wrote: »

The cutout is a sealed unit, apart from this one ope for the earthing connection. The phase is live, but cant become in contact with it unless you damage the unit maliciously

No malicious damage planned, I have great respect for the ESB. My sister worked for them before she got sick. My mother worked for them during the War. My grandfather was the engineer of a power station in Skibereen before the ESB came into existence.

My brother, when he was a child, was playing with a toy truck. It had metal poles which were about the same size as the old two prong plugs. So he sticks two poles in the socket. The current must have contracted his muscles so that the poles touched each other and blew the fuse. He lived to tell the tale and is a psychiatrist now.

Davy

I didnt mean you were going to go smashing the cutout Bad choice of words on my part. But ye you wont be near the phase.

GreySquirrel

Sometimes i get the wobblies in the shower when I think "40 amps, feck me"

Bruthal

GreySquirrel wrote: »

Sometimes i get the wobblies in the shower when I think "40 amps, feck me"

Well if its any comfort to you, if 40 amps flowed through a person, there would be little trace of them found again:). Although that would never flow through ye with 230v in any way i could see.

GreySquirrel

robbie7730 wrote: »

Well if its any comfort to you, if 40 amps flowed through a person, there would be little trace of them found again:). Although that would never flow through ye with 230v in any way i could see.

I'm not about to experiment though.

Bruthal

GreySquirrel wrote: »

I'm not about to experiment though.

A 1kw 12v starter motor in a car takes over 80 amps, but you can hold onto the battery terminals etc with no affect. A 9kw 230v shower will take about 40 amps, but if you contact the live and neutral terminals while the shower is running, this 40 amps will have no bearing on the shock received. Although the water pouring on you might:D.

GreySquirrel

robbie7730 wrote: »

A 1kw 12v starter motor in a car takes over 80 amps, but you can hold onto the battery terminals etc with no affect. A 9kw 230v shower will take about 40 amps, but if you contact the live and neutral terminals while the shower is running, this 40 amps will have no bearing on the shock received. Although the water pouring on you might:D.

thanks robbie, i'll be having baths from now on

Bruthal

GreySquirrel wrote: »

thanks robbie, i'll be having baths from now on

A no, showers are very safe, they have RCD`s on their circuit, so they are extremely safe to use. The slightest earth fault problem and they trip. No one seems to test the RCD`s using the test button, but its a good idea to press the test button once a month. Look at them on the MCB board and you will see a test button on the sockets RCD and the shower one.

GreySquirrel

robbie7730 wrote: »

A no, showers are very safe, they have RCD`s on their circuit, so they are extremely safe to use. The slightest earth fault problem and they trip. No one seems to test the RCD`s using the test button, but its a good idea to press the test button once a month. Look at them on the MCB board and you will see a test button on the sockets RCD and the shower one.

My shower is on its own RCBO. I have a large A4 sign that warns about monthly testing. I can't remember where I got it.

GreySquirrel

Davy wrote: »

Your contractor. The cutout is designed so it can be done by the contractor

If everything before the meter tails are the ESB's how come they don't do the connection to the cut out?

Our man in Havana

Liability issues.

GreySquirrel

Haddockman wrote: »

Liability issues.

OK

GreySquirrel

Ok, a huge coincidence.

The ESB called today. The're putting in new metal poles on the road and the power will be off on Monday.

Then they are calling to each house to pull the fuse and "run some tests".

So I should be able to put in new meter tails safely or "persuade" them to do it for me.

Our man in Havana

Once the main fuse is pulled it will be safe. You could always ask them nicely.

GreySquirrel

I will indeed ask them nicely. Tea coffee and cake will also be available.

What sort of tests would they be running? (Voltage? Current? Impedance?)

I see that the ESB will be changing its name to Electric Ireland.

GreySquirrel

robbie7730 wrote: »

16 square tails and a 10 square earth.

Is the 10mm square earth sufficient? The 3rd Edition Rules (waiting on 4th Edition) state at 543.1.2 that for a phase conductor of a cross section area less than or equal to 16 mm^2, the cross section are of the main protective conductor should be the same size cross section area as the phase conductor.

Our man in Havana

10 square is more than sufficient in my opinion.

M cebee

GreySquirrel wrote: »

Is the 10mm square earth sufficient? The 3rd Edition Rules (waiting on 4th Edition) state at 543.1.2 that for a phase conductor of a cross section area less than or equal to 16 mm^2, the cross section are of the main protective conductor should be the same size cross section area as the phase conductor.

if you ran 16sq singles the MPC would have to be 16 as well

-there's a note regarding 16sq T+E-(the bare earth meets the requirement for domestic)

Our man in Havana

-there's a note regarding 16sq T+E-(the bare earth meets the requirement for domestic)

That is correct.

GreySquirrel

M cebee wrote: »

if you ran 16sq singles the MPC would have to be 16 as well

-there's a note regarding 16sq T+E-(the bare earth meets the requirement for domestic)

OK, I see the note.

The cut-out is to the right of the meter and the main protective conductor is on the right side of the cut out. If I use T&E I would have to strip about 6 inches maybe more to connect brown and blue to the meter and route the bare earth around the cut-out.

It would probably be easier to use singles, unless the new rules specify T&E.

M cebee

GreySquirrel wrote: »

OK, I see the note.

The cut-out is to the right of the meter and the main protective conductor is on the right side of the cut out. If I use T&E I would have to strip about 6 inches maybe more to connect brown and blue to the meter and route the bare earth around the cut-out.

It would probably be easier to use singles, unless the new rules specify T&E.

have you ever done this before?:)


is this an old meter?is it sealed?

GreySquirrel

M cebee wrote: »

have you ever done this before?:)


is this an old meter?is it sealed?

See first post.

The guys who came out from the ESB a few years ago put in a new meter and I think a new cut-out. (Inside in the hall)

The cut-out is sealed except for the MPC terminal.

The meter incorporates an isolater. The meter part of the meter is sealed. There is a cover over the isolator. That cover is not sealed.

I've moved the tails before.

Our man in Havana

Is the isolater operated by a special key which only the ESB and contractors should have?

GreySquirrel

Haddockman wrote: »

Is the isolater operated by a special key which only the ESB and contractors should have?

Nope, it looks like a very small cooker switch. The cover just screws off.

The phase and neutral from the cut-out are singles, insulated brown and blue. No outer grey sheaths.

GreySquirrel

I have to put some new book cases together, so I'll check back in this evening.

Davy

Haddockman wrote: »

Is the isolater operated by a special key which only the ESB and contractors should have?

Sounds like the iskra meter with red isolator incorporated into the meter to the right of the outgoing tails so contractor makes the connection.


After they change the poles, they will probably just check for polarity and voltage

GreySquirrel

Davy wrote: »

Sounds like the iskra meter with red isolator incorporated into the meter to the right of the outgoing tails so contractor makes the connection.


After they change the poles, they will probably just check for polarity and voltage

I'll have a look at the meter tomorrow, friday, and see are there any trade marks.

Davy

GreySquirrel wrote: »

I see that the ESB will be changing its name to Electric Ireland.

Just the companies that sell electricity, its 'customer supply' at the minute. Esb networks and international arent changing. So really the only change will be header on the bill you get

GreySquirrel

Davy wrote: »

Just the companies that sell electricity, its 'customer supply' at the minute. Esb networks and international arent changing. So really the only change will be header on the bill you get

and something like €8 million to re-brand. and it's in the IMF deal that if the semi-states are sold off, the sale price has to go to paying off the bail-out, er sorry Brians, the loan.

GreySquirrel

GreySquirrel wrote: »

I'll have a look at the meter tomorrow, friday, and see are there any trade marks.

Have not looked at the meter yet. My carpet and bookcases are set up, trunking for my extended ring looks very neat (there's another thread on the extended ring)

My new rules, 4th edition are in the post, I might have them on Monday.

GreySquirrel

Davy wrote: »

Sounds like the iskra meter with red isolator incorporated into the meter to the right of the outgoing tails so contractor makes the connection.


After they change the poles, they will probably just check for polarity and voltage

It is an ISKRA meter 2006.

GreySquirrel

robbie7730 wrote: »

Yes 7mm for the 16 square. around 5mm for the 10 square.
Best way to measure is put the tape at the side of the cable, use the 100mm mark as your zero, as the end piece of tapes is always loose and not great for small mm measurements like that.

The Main Protective Conductor is 5mm in diameter so that should be 10 mm^2.

I can't measure properly the phase and neutral, they seem to be slightly bigger than 5 mm diameter.

GreySquirrel

GreySquirrel wrote: »

Ok, a huge coincidence.

The ESB called today. The're putting in new metal poles on the road and the power will be off on Monday.

Then they are calling to each house to pull the fuse and "run some tests".

So I should be able to put in new meter tails safely or "persuade" them to do it for me.

OK, the ESB men were on the road today. The power was back before 3.00 pm.

They were supposed to call at 4.00 pm to do some tests but never turned up.

GreySquirrel

M cebee wrote: »

if you ran 16sq singles the MPC would have to be 16 as well

-there's a note regarding 16sq T+E-(the bare earth meets the requirement for domestic)

16sq t&e has a 6sq cpc. Would that not be smaller than the earthing conductor and main bonding conductor?

Bruthal

GreySquirrel wrote: »

16sq t&e has a 6sq cpc. Would that not be smaller than the earthing conductor and main bonding conductor?

It has a 10sq earth i would of thought

GreySquirrel

robbie7730 wrote: »

It has a 10sq earth i would of thought

So did I. Looked at some brands and it 16/6. Prysmian and another one.

GreySquirrel

Still looking at 16 square and it's all 16/6. Perhaps 16/10 is now special order?

Trying to use the equation in the rules. Not getting very far.

M cebee

you're overthinking:pac:-it's either 16sq t+e or a separate 16sq single cpc for basic 12kva tails according to the rules

i would be amazed if 16sq t+e has a 6sq earth