Should there be a compensation scheme for eagle/kite attacks

Bottle_of_Smoke

Poisoned eagle found today:

Protected bird dies after poisoning

One of Ireland's rarest protected birds of prey has been discovered poisoned.
The Golden Eagle was found outside the village of Killeter, west Tyrone, last month.

Police were called in after the male raptor was poisoned by carbofuran, which has been banned in the UK since 2001.

RSPB Northern Ireland director Dr James Robinson said: "Words cannot express our disgust at this terrible and careless act."

The bird was collected as a chick from the Outer Hebrides, Scotland, in June this year and reared and released in Glenveagh National Park, Co Donegal, by the Golden Eagle Trust as part of an ongoing project to restore golden eagles in the Republic of Ireland.

It was fitted with a satellite transmitter before it was released in August. Tracking showed the eagle spent several weeks around the release area before wandering down to Killeter Forest in Tyrone, where it has been since mid-October.

Read the rest of the article: http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/protected-bird-dies-after-poisoning-15024273.html#ixzz17YSeFKaY

I find this kind of thing revolting. The government actually doing something great and re-introducing a locally extinct wonderful creature.

Obviously some farmers feel their animals are more important than the birds and cannot be reasoned with. I'm not a farmer so I'm not going to try and moralise about that.

So to prevent this kind of attack should the two governments introduce a scheme whereby farmers get compensated if their animals are attacked by reintroduced eagles or kites. I think that is fair - their farm model has evolved in the absence of these birds of prey so they could potentially lose out because of them.

Vets could (probably?) confirm the attacks and the tourism these animals could potentially bring in if successful would cover the costs.

Have the Green Parties from each either side of the border ever commented(other than condemnation) on the situation?

later12

Well the question is worth asking - why did the bird go extinct in the region to begin with?

If, for example, farmers are the cause, maybe someone should have considered that farmers, their crops and their animals, are still knocking about and the two cannot peacefully co-exist.

Bottle_of_Smoke

later10 wrote: »

Well the question is worth asking - why did the bird go extinct in the region to begin with?

If, for example, farmers are the cause, maybe someone should have considered that farmers, their crops and their animals, are still knocking about and the two cannot peacefully co-exist.

From what I've heard the damage they do to herds is minimal and in some cases they are beneficial because crows avoid eagle territory.

If the revenue they attracted through wildlife tourism outweighed compensation for farmers wouldn't it be better to have both?

later12

Why would crows be a problem, apart from barley growers (who often aren't effected by animal deaths, obviously)

How much is this revenue worth? I always believed the attraction was pretty tiny, actually.

oppenheimer1

Isn't Tyrone in the UK? Killing an endangered animal is an offence in the republic afaik.

Bottle_of_Smoke

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Isn't Tyrone in the UK? Killing an endangered animal is an offence in the republic afaik.

Endangered birds of prey do not recognise international borders. Republican scum that they are.

It is an offence to kill them in both jurisdictions but obviously virtually impossible to police.

Scofflaw

later10 wrote: »

Well the question is worth asking - why did the bird go extinct in the region to begin with?

Ever been to the Dead Zoo?

later10 wrote: »

If, for example, farmers are the cause, maybe someone should have considered that farmers, their crops and their animals, are still knocking about and the two cannot peacefully co-exist.

The two can peacefully co-exist - it requires either an appreciation of the greater communal good by the individual farmer, or compensation. They seem to manage in Scotland, after all.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Focalbhach

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

I find this kind of thing revolting.

Seconded.

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

So to prevent this kind of attack should the two governments introduce a scheme whereby farmers get compensated if their animals are attacked by reintroduced eagles or kites.

I had an idea that there was talk of some sort of compensation scheme a while back - the same thing was happening in Kerry with sea eagles being poisoned. Am open to correction on that though.

ednwireland

they were made extinct by man just in case anyone doesnt know - and very recently

the re-introduced sea eagles in kerry are meeting a similiar fate

Of all the island's bird extinctions, none was as deliberate as the eradication of the eagle in the latter half of the 19th Century. In the mid 1800s, one could have seen a dozen in a day in the mountains of Kerry, or watched them swooping after hares or grouse from Connemara to Donegal. After 50 years of persecution, with sheep ranchers and gamekeepers using rifles, traps and strychnine, and collectors vying for the eggs, the last native eagles nested above Glenveagh in 1910 and on the north Mayo cliffs in 1912. Ireland is the only country in the world to have lost its eagles in such recent times.

http://www.irishtimes.com/timeseye/birds/great.htm

interesting report from the rspb on crofters complaints that lambs were taken by sea eagles

http://www.birdguides.com/webzine/article.asp?print=1&a=2094

seamus

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

So to prevent this kind of attack should the two governments introduce a scheme whereby farmers get compensated if their animals are attacked by reintroduced eagles or kites.

The question here is whether or not this is actually a problem, or just old-school belligerant farmers acting out of ignorance.

Do we know what danger (if any) eagles and kites pose to livestock?

Laminations

seamus wrote: »

The question here is whether or not this is actually a problem, or just old-school belligerant farmers acting out of ignorance.

Do we know what danger (if any) eagles and kites pose to livestock?

Little if any. They are being poisoned out of ignorance. If you visit the excellent birds of prey/ falconry display at the foot of the entrance to the Aillwee caves they'll tell you all about the problems being faced for the reintroduction.

ednwireland wrote: »

interesting report from the rspb on crofters complaints that lambs were taken by sea eagles

http://www.birdguides.com/webzine/article.asp?print=1&a=2094

^^^ This

goose2005

Farmers want compensation for any old crap. For every eagle found dead, take 50 euro off every Donegal farmer's single farm payment. They know who's poisoning the birds and will put pressure on him.

johngalway

goose2005 wrote: »

Farmers want compensation for any old crap. For every eagle found dead, take 50 euro off every Donegal farmer's single farm payment. They know who's poisoning the birds and will put pressure on him.

If I break a red light or speed in your part of Ireland, I guess all other car owners locally should have their road tax put up in line with my fine.

Don't know what impact, if any, eagles have on lambs.

But, a compensation scheme would be unworkable IMO, and just more red tape for the valuable hard working people in the Dept. I imagine some larger BOP could carry something as small as a lamb off elsewhere. How do you prove you own a newly born unbranded lamb? How do you prove the lamb was alive at the time? No one is with their stock 24/7.

On another point, some site members have previously said that some larger BOP can take foxes, as well as crows, so they are an asset to farming. OK, I won't dispute that point. However, a lamb is a lot smaller and certainly defenseless compared to a fox, no? So they are a threat to foxes, but not lambs

I'm not arguing either side, just raising the points, some of which don't make sense.

Bottle_of_Smoke

johngalway wrote: »

If I break a red light or speed in your part of Ireland, I guess all other car owners locally should have their road tax put up in line with my fine.

Don't know what impact, if any, eagles have on lambs.

But, a compensation scheme would be unworkable IMO, and just more red tape for the valuable hard working people in the Dept. I imagine some larger BOP could carry something as small as a lamb off elsewhere. How do you prove you own a newly born unbranded lamb? How do you prove the lamb was alive at the time? No one is with their stock 24/7.

On another point, some site members have previously said that some larger BOP can take foxes, as well as crows, so they are an asset to farming. OK, I won't dispute that point. However, a lamb is a lot smaller and certainly defenseless compared to a fox, no? So they are a threat to foxes, but not lambs

I'm not arguing either side, just raising the points, some of which don't make sense.

Yeah I mustn't have been thinking straight when I posted that. Would be impossible to compensate if the eagle carried the lamb away. Pity, because it would be great to have these animals, but I'm fairly sure they'll all be killed within the near to medium future. Almost think they should be brought back to Scotland to prevent the inevitable.

Scofflaw

johngalway wrote: »

If I break a red light or speed in your part of Ireland, I guess all other car owners locally should have their road tax put up in line with my fine.

Don't know what impact, if any, eagles have on lambs.

But, a compensation scheme would be unworkable IMO, and just more red tape for the valuable hard working people in the Dept. I imagine some larger BOP could carry something as small as a lamb off elsewhere. How do you prove you own a newly born unbranded lamb? How do you prove the lamb was alive at the time? No one is with their stock 24/7.

On another point, some site members have previously said that some larger BOP can take foxes, as well as crows, so they are an asset to farming. OK, I won't dispute that point. However, a lamb is a lot smaller and certainly defenseless compared to a fox, no? So they are a threat to foxes, but not lambs

I'm not arguing either side, just raising the points, some of which don't make sense.

The point being made by the RSPB in Scotland seems to be that while eagles can and do carry off lambs, they do so almost entirely during the lambing season, and rarely appear to carry off lambs later - despite which, claims for compensation for lambs carried off are often made for older lambs.

Eagle nest webcams?

cordially,
Scofflaw

Focalbhach

Scofflaw wrote: »

Eagle nest webcams?

There's potential here - we could mount a tiny camera on the eagle's head with live feed. I'd love to see the research funding application: Eaglecam. And now that Big Brother's gone, there's a gap in the TV market so it would be both self-financing and entertaining.

I see no flaw with this plan.

Bottle_of_Smoke

goose2005 wrote: »

Farmers want compensation for any old crap. For every eagle found dead, take 50 euro off every Donegal farmer's single farm payment. They know who's poisoning the birds and will put pressure on him.

Would actually have to punish every farmer in Ireland. We can't prove where the bird was poisoned, all we know was it died in Tyrone(in the time it takes to metabolize the poison the eagle could have flown miles off)

The idea ran through my head, but its not actually fair as some local farmer might think its worth losing a few euro in payments if his lambs aren't killed. And imagine the situation if people in the republic lost payments because someone in the NI counties killed the birds. Not a chance would a government party risk pissing the IFA off that much

johngalway

Scofflaw wrote: »

The point being made by the RSPB in Scotland seems to be that while eagles can and do carry off lambs, they do so almost entirely during the lambing season, and rarely appear to carry off lambs later - despite which, claims for compensation for lambs carried off are often made for older lambs.

Eagle nest webcams?

cordially,
Scofflaw

Possibly, though the burden to prove who owns the young unbranded lamb is still practically impossible to carry out. To me, as a hill sheep farmer, the cost/loss is still there. As the ewe still needs care all winter which can include, dipping, dosing, mineral & vit dose/bolus, feed - be that grass/rations/other, plus the biggest and often overlooked input, the shepherds time. Of course, the older lamb has more costs involved as it's care of another animal separate to it's own ewe.

My aim is to ensure the highest % of my ewes get into lamb firstly, then ensure adequate care levels over the Winter/Spring to bring forward the highest lamb crop % and so it goes on from there to bring the highest % again to market.

Different times of year demand different levels of work, some normal keeping the outfit ticking over, and other times it can be pretty demanding, so extra problems aren't welcome. Once the lamb is killed that's a loss right there, it's not like other types of work where maybe something can be recovered.

Scofflaw

johngalway wrote: »

Possibly, though the burden to prove who owns the young unbranded lamb is still practically impossible to carry out. To me, as a hill sheep farmer, the cost/loss is still there. As the ewe still needs care all winter which can include, dipping, dosing, mineral & vit dose/bolus, feed - be that grass/rations/other, plus the biggest and often overlooked input, the shepherds time. Of course, the older lamb has more costs involved as it's care of another animal separate to it's own ewe.

My aim is to ensure the highest % of my ewes get into lamb firstly, then ensure adequate care levels over the Winter/Spring to bring forward the highest lamb crop % and so it goes on from there to bring the highest % again to market.

Different times of year demand different levels of work, some normal keeping the outfit ticking over, and other times it can be pretty demanding, so extra problems aren't welcome. Once the lamb is killed that's a loss right there, it's not like other types of work where maybe something can be recovered.

Sure - that's why I have no objection to compensation schemes. If it comes to it, I wouldn't have any objection to a single compensation payment for risk rather than loss - have an eagle living in the area, receive the payment, whether or not you actually lose a lamb. You could adjust that for known predation patterns (proximity to nesting sites, eagle diet) and the number of eagles, and by upping it a small amount over the actual risk the farmer gains a small financial incentive in the eagle's wellbeing - someone poisons an eagle, everyone loses some money. Still an incentive for farmers to protect their lambs, no incentive to make a false claim or have to try to prove the unprovable.

cordially,
Scofflaw

later12

Scofflaw wrote: »

Ever been to the Dead Zoo?

Yes, indeed. And I have a feeling that, unfortunately that may be the environment to which these birds are best suited, in Ireland at least.

The two can peacefully co-exist - it requires either an appreciation of the greater communal good by the individual farmer, or compensation. They seem to manage in Scotland, after all.

I'm not against compensation, but the question must be raised - what's the point of having these birds here anyway?
Secondly, communal spirit? a good farmer is a business man. A person who expects a farmer to engage in communal spirit and overlook lamb mortality issues is not living in the real world.

I would hazard a guess that it works in Scotland firstly because the highland landscape is far more remote and secondly there are a lot less sheep farmers per hectare but grazing a lot more sheep.

later12

Laminations wrote: »

Little if any. They are being poisoned out of ignorance. If you visit the excellent birds of prey/ falconry display at the foot of the entrance to the Aillwee caves they'll tell you all about the problems being faced for the reintroduction.

Hmmm.
Do you really think that they, or the SNH report, are unbiased parties?

I'm not saying they're wrong. In fact, the SNH report itself seems to reflect what one's common sense would itself suggest.
However you should always be at least a little bit wary of reports on the effects of conservation on farmers by parties whose role is conservation.

As for falconers and birds of prey experts' own opinions, well that should be obvious.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Scofflaw wrote: »

Sure - that's why I have no objection to compensation schemes. If it comes to it, I wouldn't have any objection to a single compensation payment for risk rather than loss - have an eagle living in the area, receive the payment, whether or not you actually lose a lamb. You could adjust that for known predation patterns (proximity to nesting sites, eagle diet) and the number of eagles, and by upping it a small amount over the actual risk the farmer gains a small financial incentive in the eagle's wellbeing - someone poisons an eagle, everyone loses some money. Still an incentive for farmers to protect their lambs, no incentive to make a false claim or have to try to prove the unprovable.

cordially,
Scofflaw

This is a very interesting concept. Not sure how it would pan out in practice but think it would be worthwhile to take the chance seeing as the people currently killing the eagles aren't going to be reasoned with.

Valmont

I think the question we need to ask ourselves is why farmers in other places with birds of prey can do without poison. Goodness, I met a farmer in Slovakia, seemed to do grand for himself, and he had brown bears and wolves to worry about. Why is it the farmers in Ireland make a big fuss out of a few Golden Eagles? Also, the golden eagles we have here are significantly smaller than their North American counterparts.

These farmers using poison are just lazy to be honest. In Scotland they make do just fine with setting snares and shooting the foxes. Some hard and fast rules need to be laid down imo otherwise this will just keep happening. How many birds have been poisoned now? How many prosecutions? Surely with the satellite trackers they could have a good idea where the bird picked up the poison?

jpb1974

Why would crows be a problem, apart from barley growers (who often aren't effected by animal deaths, obviously)

Apparently they're right proper little See You Next Tuesday's. (I was told this by a farmer a few months ago).

They prey on ill, weak and smaller stock.. usually sheep. If a sheep fell ill or weak for whatever reason they'll come down and start pecking at it's eyes and the like until the point the that sheep kicks the bucket and then they feast.

And for this reason amongst others - Farmers don't like crows.

Corsendonk

jpb1974 wrote: »

Apparently they're right proper little See You Next Tuesday's. (I was told this by a farmer a few months ago).

They prey on ill, weak and smaller stock.. usually sheep. If a sheep fell ill or weak for whatever reason they'll come down and start pecking at it's eyes and the like until the point the that sheep kicks the bucket and then they feast.

A for this reason amongst others - Farmers don't like crows.

Magpies in particular, I have heard a number of stories from hunters of finding lambs with their eyes pecked out by magpies.

What type of poison is used to kill these birds? Why can't the state impose a licence for commercial use of poisons? My Dad use to grow tomatoes as a commercial grower and every year he had to apply to the Garda for a explosive licence(fertiliser). At least then you have a register of people with the means to poison.

jpb1974

Yup, the same farmer specifically mentioned Magpies too.

later12

jpb1974 wrote: »

later10 wrote:

Why would crows be a problem, apart from barley growers (who often aren't effected by animal deaths, obviously)

Apparently they're right proper little See You Next Tuesday's. (I was told this by a farmer a few months ago).

They prey on ill, weak and smaller stock.. usually sheep. If a sheep fell ill or weak for whatever reason they'll come down and start pecking at it's eyes and the like until the point the that sheep kicks the bucket and then they feast.

And for this reason amongst others - Farmers don't like crows.

Corsendonk wrote:

Magpies in particular, I have heard a number of stories from hunters of finding lambs with their eyes pecked out by magpies.

This has nothing to do with healthy animals. Birds - usually magpies, do indeed prey on lambs' eyes - but only when the animal is dead or dying. If a farmer has a problem with it, it's from a humane point of view. I have heard reports of ravens actively attacking baby lambs, but ravens are not nearly common enough in Ireland to make the presence of this eagle an overall advantage to the farmer.

I would pose the question of what serious benefit are these birds to the Irish countryside? And surely these birds went extinct in the first place because they were not seen as valuable or beneficial - perhaps indeed, harmful - and therefore were routinely hunted to the same end as foxes are today.

Do we really need to start introducing species that have already failed to survive here? Why not go one step further and introduce conservation programs to breed pandas, ant eaters, llamas or other relatively pointless creatures into the Irish countryside!

Scofflaw

Of what value is caring for the elderly, given they're no longer economically useful, and would have died quite naturally if they weren't supported at a cost to working people?

cordially,
Scofflaw

later12

Scofflaw wrote: »

Of what value is caring for the elderly, given they're no longer economically useful, and would have died quite naturally if they weren't supported at a cost to working people?

cordially,
Scofflaw

They're taxpayers - through their pensions, VAT and other taxes as well as being able to give a valid contribution to social and sometimes political life. So they are, indeed, very often economically useful.

Having said that, I am not supporting a case whereby everybody must be economically useful in order to be supported financially or otherwise by the state - even in times where fiscal austerity is of such dire necessity.

Rather, I think we need to maintain a healthy level of discrimation.
I have no problems with discriminating positively in favour of humans at the expense of animals. I like my beef barely dead, but the live version doesn't interest me at all to be honest. Furthermore, we ought to be pragmatic in our approach to these birds, and realise that if conservation is a part of our agenda then perhaps we ought to maintain an eye on what we are already aiming to conserve in the Irish countryside and not start introducing new species who have, perhaps, gone extinct here for very good reasons.

Raging_Ninja

I don't advocate breaking laws or anything like that, but I feel I must point that we wiped them out the first time round for a reason. They are predators and are known to kill young livestock (lambs and the like).

Corsendonk

Raging_Ninja wrote: »

I don't advocate breaking laws or anything like that, but I feel I must point that we wiped them out the first time round for a reason. They are predators and are known to kill young livestock (lambs and the like).

Why don't we wipe out dogs then on that logic? Certainly more damage caused by dogs let loose among sheep.