"Shattering the myth of a world-class education system" - Irish Times

Permabear

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Nodin

Is this a debate about the state of the irish education system, or just complaining about teachers pay in sheeps clothing?

freckly

Make them all work for free blah blah blah....
Seriously though, grade inflation is a huge issue here. Even looking through very recent exam papers, it is obvious that questions are often easier in recent years. Some of the dumbing down is due to the education system. Streaming now frowned upon at junior level in many secondary schools. This could see a typical class focused towards the lower to middle abilities. Differentiation within the one group doesnt always work. There are pros and cons and dumbing down is an obvious con.
Moreover, society has changed. Typically, children read less. Yes, they are possibly more computer literate, but can they concentrate for long enough to read a book? This has to be learned from a young age, which means starting at home. While it doesnt apply to all parents, I as a teacher, see a huge difference between students who are supported at home and those who arent. Parents dont have to be well educated themselves, simply making your child aware of that the basics are important and supervising homework can have a huge effect. Ditto for checking spellings, tables etc. Yea, it is the teachers job to teach, but the standards will obviously diminish if the parents role diminishes. Both have to work together.
There have also been some very positive and progressive changes, such as Project Maths and science at primary level. We will only see the benefits of these changes later though.

ei.sdraob

Nodin wrote: »

Is this a debate about the state of the irish education system, or just complaining about teachers pay in sheeps clothing?

their pay went up over these years well above inflation but the product of their work went down. why?

is it a crime to point out what most of us suspected for some time and is now backed by evidence and facts.

expectationlost

ruari quinn are possible future education minister said the same thing at public meeting a few weeks ago, its a damaging myth

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Boskowski

I should hope its a wages debate.

Ireland has come a long way from 'the poor man of Europe' some 30 years ago to where we are now. But only recently we learned the hard way that a considerable part of the climb that was made was indeed 'fake'.

During the climb we got ahead of ourselves and interest groups with a lot of clout got ahead of themselves even more so. This created protected pockets in professional society.
Not sure if there is a 'tradition' there that goes back to before the 'boom', I suspect there is - lawyers and doctors were probably always wealthy, but there are certain professional groups who seem to suck ressources out of the system beyond what feels to be the weight they're actually pulling. The first three that spring to mind are Health, Legal and Education.

Now they successfully manage to make themselves exempt from the necessary downscaling of Irish economical structures.

How the hell did the teachers manage to have the already malnourished facilities cut even more why their overinflated wages are untouched I cannot fathom. Anything to do with an overrepresentation of teachers amongst political 'representatives'? This is Ireland at its best (worst) tbh.

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sirromo

It's worth pointing out that Ireland's spending on education is the third lowest in the OECD
http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0909/education.html

Are we appearing third lowest on the PISA survey? Don't our teachers deserve some of the credit for the fact that we're not appearing third lowest overall among OECD countries on the PISA survey?

Nodin

donegalfella wrote: »

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So you do just want to talk about wages and not the education system....ok then.

#15

On the off-chance that anyone is actually interested in a discussion on education standards, methodologies and curriculum issues, and not another public sector rant, I would recommend reading the OECD report first.

http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/34/60/46619703.pdf

There are also some interesting comments on the IT website.

On a broader point, there needs to be a radical rethinking of the education system IMO.

Ken Robinson has some good ideas on the matter. It really is worth watching. Even if you disagree with him - it still gives food for thought.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDZFcDGpL4U

sirromo

The teacher-bashers might benefit from reading this article from the Irish Times from back in September
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0908/1224278448342.html

The report also finds that Irish class sizes were among the highest in the OECD and second highest in the EU. On average, there are 24 pupils in Irish classrooms compared to an EU average of 20. The smallest classes are to be found in Luxembourg where there are on average 15 pupils per class.

The report shows teachers in Ireland to be among the best paid in the OECD although the 2007 figures take no account of the pension levy and pay cuts which reduced salaries by an average of 14 per cent.

The INTO said the report showed Irish primary teachers were among the most productive in the EU, teaching 152 hours more per year than the average.

Focalbhach

donegalfella wrote: »

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That's not an accurate reading - though admittedly the passage you quote is poorly phrased. The problems with methodology and sampling were raised by the researchers, not the teacher unions, so accusing the unions of ignoring bad news on that basis is not fair.

tails_naf

freckly wrote: »

Streaming now frowned upon at junior level in many secondary schools. This could see a typical class focused towards the lower to middle abilities. Differentiation within the one group doesnt always work. There are pros and cons and dumbing down is an obvious con.

sweet zombie jesus - this is the exact same thing that was brought into the school system in the USA - "No Child Left Behind" - ended up meaning all children were behdind together! They stopped streaming, and thought splitting up classes based on ability would hurt children's self esteem.

My wife is a former English teacher from the US and she lamented the decline in education standards when streaming was done away with and when the focus shifted on integrating 'special ed' and regular classes. The end result is the average child is receiving a worse education, and the 'gifted' children are not catered to at all.

Looks like we're taking the Knowledge Economy as seriously as we're taking the 'Economy' in general - i.e. running it into the ground.

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Sponge Bob

The director of the OECD directorate for eductation, Bernard Hugonnier I think, pointed out that quality is dropping generally in the OECD but Ireland is evidently dropping MUCH fast than the norm.

Countries that had improved , eg Germany, did so by not specialising students into Technical and Arst type schools ( Techs vs Secondaries) at the age of 10 while still in primary. That solution cannot be applied here.

The Drumcondra/Limerick Sat/Sten type testing system has been varied over time as well.

It would be interesting to set a modern group of 10 year olds the 1990 tests and the 2000 tests and the 2010 tests and see what happens

But the single greatest failing is that the Primary schools inspectorate does not insist that the entire national curriculum is properly and evenly taught across the state...and that failing teachers are sanctioned where they will notice it....in their paypackets.

We have crap standards and a crap outcome from having crap standards.

View

sirromo wrote: »

The teacher-bashers might benefit from reading this article from the Irish Times from back in September
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0908/1224278448342.html

The report also finds that Irish class sizes were among the highest in the OECD and second highest in the EU. On average, there are 24 pupils in Irish classrooms compared to an EU average of 20. The smallest classes are to be found in Luxembourg where there are on average 15 pupils per class.

Well, what do you expect?

You can take your education budget and prioritise:
a) paying your teachers above-average salaries (wrt to their international peers) rather than reducing class size, or,
b) prioritise reducing class sizes rather than paying teachers above-average salaries.

Ireland went for option a) , other states for option b).

PeakOutput

this is so so depressing

there is just no excuse for it

im so jaded from arguing about our failed systems

the country needs a serious reform as a hole


people are so worried about adults on social welfare not being hit and every adult in the country getting their fair share or of not being hit too hard by the cuts because they dont deserve it

well (and i hate to even say this dont think i have ever used a think about the kids argument in my life) what about kids who havnt had a chance to make the poor choices yet. we are just creating the next batch of long term unemployed by not giving them the actual world class education they deserve

iv said it for a while now there is no reason why we cant be in the top ten in world as far as primary and secondary education goes and it wouldnt cost much more if any more and there is no reason why we can have one top 20 university in this country

i am in my final year of getting a degree and every lecturer bar one has given me the exact questions that are coming up on my exams this week and the next so instead of actually knowing the module material im only going to know those few questions so i can do well in the exam. i knew this would happen aswell so i barely showed up for classes using the time to teach myself other things.

luckily it will mean my degree looks good on paper and i will probably be able to get into a top 50 school abroad to do my post grad were i can get a real education

jimmycrackcorm

I wonder if the reduced literacy rate has anything to do with the increase in numbers of immigrant children where English was not their first language?

Focalbhach

PeakOutput wrote: »

iv said it for a while now there is no reason why we cant be in the top ten in world as far as primary and secondary education goes and it wouldnt cost much more if any more and there is no reason why we can have one top 20 university in this country

Your conviction is laudable, but that's much easier said than done. There are plenty of other countries whose citizens can also justifiably say "there's no reason why we can't be in the world top 10", and unfortunately for all of us there are only 10 such places. I would rather focus on student-level outcomes - what do our students know/what can they do as they leave primary, secondary, third-level? - than get overly hung up on international rankings.

PeakOutput wrote: »

i am in my final year of getting a degree and every lecturer bar one has given me the exact questions that are coming up on my exams this week and the next so instead of actually knowing the module material im only going to know those few questions so i can do well in the exam. i knew this would happen aswell so i barely showed up for classes using the time to teach myself other things.

luckily it will mean my degree looks good on paper and i will probably be able to get into a top 50 school abroad to do my post grad were i can get a real education

With all due respect, this strikes me as being a fairly hypocritical rant. You say that instead of knowing all the module material you're only going to study the few questions you have been told are coming up? What's stopping you learning (and, hopefully, thinking critically about) the rest of the material? Or, reading more widely on your subject beyond what's on the recommended reading list? It's not your lecturers. If you want a "real education" at another university, I suggest that you look again at your learning methods and your motivation for learning what you do, because otherwise you're not going to get it.

thebman

Nodin wrote: »

So you do just want to talk about wages and not the education system....ok then.

The wages are part of the education system though and take funding away from other areas.

If higher wages are not yielding better results, surely we must look at reducing wages and hiring more teachers or improving facilities in an attempt to improve our education system.

It would be difficult to argue that we can't do this if we are currently paying teachers more than most other countries but getting worse results. Teachers complain about class sizes etc... ignoring that class sizes is partly limited by the funding which is mostly going towards their wages when if there wages were lower, we could have a lower teacher to pupil ratio in many cases.

Focalbhach

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

I wonder if the reduced literacy rate has anything to do with the increase in numbers of immigrant children where English was not their first language?

It's not the whole story, but it's a factor to be aware of. I posted about this in the other thread:

Leto wrote: »

I think it's also worth making the wider point - because I haven't seen it made here yet - that the "lowering of standards" between 2000 and 2009 isn't as clearcut as a superficial reading would suggest. The report states that there have been significant demographic changes in the school (and therefore, test) population in that time. Specifically, the number of pupils for whom English is not a first language went up substantially, the number of students with special educational needs who were included in the classroom went up, and more students were kept in school who would otherwise have dropped out before the age of 15.

All of these groups would be expected to perform significantly more poorly on the PISA tests. I don't think there's any doubt that there was also some decline in performance among the broader student population, but the population changes have to be borne in mind when discussing the headline rankings. Our PISA scores went down, but we do have greater inclusion of SEN students and fewer early school leavers than in 2000. Put another way, if all we had to do to rise in the PISA 2012 rankings was let those students drift away from education, would that be reflective of a better education system?

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PeakOutput

Leto wrote: »

Your conviction is laudable, but that's much easier said than done. There are plenty of other countries whose citizens can also justifiably say "there's no reason why we can't be in the world top 10", and unfortunately for all of us there are only 10 such places. I would rather focus on student-level outcomes - what do our students know/what can they do as they leave primary, secondary, third-level? - than get overly hung up on international rankings.

we are a small country with a relatively high income(well we had a relatively high income) for our size. we can afford a very high quality education service for our what couple hundred thousand children,maybe a million?

there are very practical reasons why countries like america have trouble with education due to how big they are and how they are governed(state level control of budgets and then local level decisions on spending) not to mention that they have a couple hundred million kids to educate many of them in poverty

we are a small country,with alot of our population in 4 areas, with a central goverment that allocates funding country wide. reform is a lot easier in that type of scenario then in much bigger countries.

With all due respect, this strikes me as being a fairly hypocritical rant. You say that instead of knowing all the module material you're only going to study the few questions you have been told are coming up? What's stopping you learning (and, hopefully, thinking critically about) the rest of the material? Or, reading more widely on your subject beyond what's on the recommended reading list? It's not your lecturers. If you want a "real education" at another university, I suggest that you look again at your learning methods and your motivation for learning what you do, because otherwise you're not going to get it.

oh i understand how it is completely. its a combination of the course not being about what they told me it was about, me losing interest in the subject as a result and being in college with people who dont give a **** either, and not having any proper peer support structure, that has sucked the motivation for my particular course out of me.

my point was that someone who is working like i am should not still have the possibility to receive a first class honours degree(or even a second class honours), it just should not be a possibility in the system, but it is and i do.

#15

Sponge Bob wrote: »

But the single greatest failing is that the Primary schools inspectorate does not insist that the entire national curriculum is properly and evenly taught across the state...

Can you give an example?

The curriculum is a menu style curriculum. That is a reason for slight differences from school to school.
It shouldn't mean vast differences though.

#15

donegalfella wrote: »

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Pay is one of numerous factors at play.

The logic on display here is a bit simple.

Cut pay = more buildings = better outcomes.

It's surprising that someone as intelligent as you is playing to the gallery under the guise of serious discussion.

That's all very well. If you'd like to talk about the education system without mentioning wages, please feel free. I'd be very interested to see your analysis of where you think things have gone wrong.

Some people have put forward their views on another thread.

http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056113922

Permabear

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PeakOutput

#15 wrote: »

Pay is one of numerous factors at play.

The logic on display here is a bit simple.

Cut pay = more buildings = better outcomes.

It's surprising that someone as intelligent as you is playing to the gallery under the guise of serious discussion.



Some people have put forward their views on another thread.

http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056113922

i think your deliberately misinterpreting him to suit your own argument

cutting pay is part of reform, reform that teachers refuse to accept

cut pay and you can afford to hire more teachers which in turn will lower class sizes

cut pay and you can build the extra classrooms to accomodate the higher number of classes

cut pay and you can afford to introduce performance based rewards and teachers will have an incentive to give outstanding lessons above and beyond what the current system requires them to. so the really great teachers get paid great wages and the useless ones get paid a crap wage.

77cent out of every euro of the budget going to wages and pensions means that to change anything at all, pay has to be part of the conversation.

Focalbhach

PeakOutput wrote: »

my point was that someone who is working like i am should not still have the possibility to receive a first class honours degree(or even a second class honours), it just should not be a possibility in the system, but it is and i do.

Ah, fair enough. I think I agree

#15

donegalfella wrote: »

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I'm not saying that either.

But the broader point is that increasing or decreasing pay will only result in a certain amount of change.

There is no value in decreasing or increasing pay unless other aspects of the education system are also reformed.

Not exactly. In suggesting that Ireland spends too little on education, a previous poster effectively proposed that the answer to all of our problems is the one advocated most eagerly by the unions: Spend more money!

Ok fair enough, if you were responding to a call for increased spending then of course the distribution of the budget is up for discussion.

#15

PeakOutput wrote: »

i think your deliberately misinterpreting him to suit your own argument

No I am not. You don't seem to know what my argument is tbf.

Sponge Bob

#15 wrote: »

Can you give an example?
The curriculum is a menu style curriculum. That is a reason for slight differences from school to school.
It shouldn't mean vast differences though.

Kids are coming out of the system, functionally illiterate in English or showing clearly that significant elements of the curriculum were never taught to them , this in non inner city/immigrant areas where "slight differences" would be expected

Teachers are now taking 10 school days out per annum over what they were 20 years ago, being planning days, PT meetings during school hours not after hours, 'inservice' courses, 5 "personal days" a year which all seem to be used up nowadays as a right.

The inspectorate clucks around the problem and produces sociological fluff instead of telling the slobs to teach or face pay being docked for non performance.

Only 30 years ago a school faced with an "inspection" bucked itself up. Nowadays they don't care what the inspector thinks because there is no sanction for non performance of contract......and no shame either.

And the OECD report clearly shows that we have been found out...but I saw this coming years ago.

It will take many years to reverse this abject slide into mediocrity during which time the statistics will continue to disimprove. We may see signs of hope in the 2015 numbers....but most likely only a lessening in the pace of worsening

But it is not a pay vs buildings issue, it is simply the enforcement of proper uniform national standards and docking the pay of the non compliant teachers and then firing them if the non performance continues...in order to make them realise we are dead serious about fixing this problem.

If we got systematically got rid of the worst 1% every year for the next 10 years that would help "encourager les autres" as the saying goes.

#15

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Kids are coming out of the system, functionally illiterate in English or showing clearly that significant elements of the curriculum were never taught to them , this in non inner city/immigrant areas where "slight differences" would be expected

Can you give an example of specific parts/objectives of the curriculum that were not taught? It's a genuine question.

Illiteracy is a broader problem than just a curriculum one.
It raises issues of teaching quality, methodolgies, learning supports, behavioural issues and possibly (actually, probably) other socio-economic factors.

Illiteracy is too serious a problem to pin it solely on curriculum issues.

thebman

TBH the standard of some teachers is appalling anyway.

When I was in secondary school near the end of the 90's, we had one teacher who could not control the class at all.

Literally after messing throughout the entire class, he locked the door and said they'd stay in over lunch since they were messing all during class and the class simply opened the windows and climbed out.

Now in this situation the teacher cannot go to the principal as it makes them look incomptent which they are at their job. But how could they ever be found out to be this incompetent at their job? Needless to say the results from that class were less than good.

Compare it to a class with the same people in it during maths with a math teacher that as soon as anyone even turned sideways just pointed at them to let them know he knew what they were doing and not once did a major disruption occur in that teachers class. These two people should not be on the same wages as the standards between them are massive. In fact one should simply not be in the profession.

#15

Sponge Bob wrote: »

.in order to make them realise we are dead serious about fixing this problem.

The problem is that we aren't serious. Ireland couldn't give a toss about its education system. Debate centres around teaching perks, and that's it.
No outrage over the vast number of things that are going wrong with the system.
We aren't serious. We're paying lip service to the very idea of being serious.

Focalbhach

#15 wrote: »

Illiteracy is a broader problem than just a curriculum one. It raises issues of teaching quality, methodolgies, learning supports, behavioural issues and possibly (actually, probably) other socio-economic factors.

Illiteracy is too serious a problem to pin it solely on curriculum issues.

This is a good point. Another report released last month on reading and maths in primary school (at the same time as Mary Coughlan's new literacy/numeracy strategy document) strongly emphasised the impact of home factors - i.e., how many books are there in the home? Do children read for fun, or do they spend all their time on the Xbox/watching TV instead? Do parents read with their children? Are parents confident in helping their children read, write, do maths problems? Are parents aware of how well, relative to their classmates, their children can read/write/do maths?

Sponge Bob

#15 wrote: »

Can you give an example of specific parts/objectives of the curriculum that were not taught? It's a genuine question.

There are primary schools where Irish is not taught, at all. The curriculum is not followed. This could be proven by two blind and senile inspectors with 10 minutes in 6th class. In others no science or geography is taught. Sometimes all three

The simple solution is that as Irish is (say) around 1/7th of the curriculum you dock all the teachers in that school 1/7th of their salary forthwith.

If they retire suddenly instead of doing their job then dock their gratuity and pension pro rata. No way back

You get real savings and real incentives straight away with such an inspection regime. Those who do the job are not threatened by it either.

If these slobs get the finger out and do their job let the inspectors come back in two years to see the evidence and by all means do restore their pay then. Some may have grounds for appeal and you can let them appeal, if the appeal fails fine them 2 more years ( even if they are compliant then) for timewasting instead of complying.

For gross incompetence, sack them. Aim to clear 1% out of the profession every year for 10 years and say as much.

This standards and sanctions based approach will deliver results very quickly, we as taxpayers and as a society owe these useless overpaid parasites nothing.

And those who do their job, the majority, have nothing much to fear save where they are maybe the only competent teacher in their school.

#15

Sponge Bob wrote: »

There are primary schools where Irish is not taught, at all. The curriculum is not followed. This could be proven by two blind and senile inspectors with 10 minutes in 6th class. In others no science or geography is taught. Sometimes all three

May I ask how you know this and what have you done about it?

Students are supposed to be taught Irish for approx 3 and a half hours per week.
Science and geography get one hour per week each, although they may be taught in block periods.

Have you
1) proof?
2) reported it to the authorities?

The Dept can do a simple check. You should report it if you are sure that the curriculum is not being followed.

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#15

Sponge Bob wrote: »

This standards and sanctions based approach will deliver results very quickly,

What would you say to research findings that merit-based pay does not improve outcomes?

we as taxpayers and as a society owe these useless overpaid parasites nothing.

And those who do their job, the majority, have nothing much to fear save where they are maybe the only competent teacher in their school.

Unhelpful and irrelevant to a serious discussion.

#15

donegalfella wrote: »

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I have no problem with anyone discussing such measures. I do have a problem with some people discussing those measures and pretending that it is real educational reform.

It's a budgetary issue and is worthwhile of debate in its own right.
It's dishonest to claim that it is borne out of concern for the education system.

To be fair, I don't think you have taken that stance, so I'm not directing those comments at you.

simplistic2

Much of the problem here lies with the unions. For as soon as the unions get their strangle hold around the neck of education the focus on the customer is removed and is replaced by the shake down union attitude that views the customer as an annoyance that is tolerated only while their grubby hands are filled with tax money.

The respect for the customer is lost and thus the respect for education is lost. A lesson often thought in school was that respect is something that was demanded from the student and never supplied by
the teacher. They seemed oblivious to the fact that to breed respect you must
first supply it.

Focalbhach

donegalfella wrote: »

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That's a budgetary debate, and a valid one, but has nothing to do with a discussion of education. It also stands in contradiction to the earlier suggestions in this thread that cutting teachers' pay would lead to the money being spent on educational infrastructure/support (which I think is a questionable assumption in itself). As I said in the other thread, changes to teachers' pay/practices may well be a consequence of educational reform, but should not be the driving factor.

Sponge Bob

#15 wrote: »

What would you say to research findings that merit-based pay does not improve outcomes?

I am not advocating bonusage for performance, I am advocating demeriting for breach of contract and for egregious non performance INSTEAD of docking all teachers pay....particularly when the majority are compliant professionals.

And as for reporting incompetents,

1. You must be a parent or it will not be entertained, even then they will obstruct you as much as possible. You must be prepare to make a formal complaint about the teacher ( fair enough) and then grind through around 10 stages of shyte before you even see an Inspector.
2. Have you any idea of some of the dross we have in the primary school inspectorate itself nowadays. The inspectorate used to be invitation only/or primarily, based on quality and devotion to quality. Now it is by open application ....frequently by failed clasroom practitioners looking for a quiet life.

Permabear

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#15

donegalfella wrote: »

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Yes, but that claim is also wrong.

Much could be done by using common sense.

Valmont

#15 wrote: »

Yes, but that claim is also wrong.

No, it was the underlying argument to the benchmarking deal.

Also, your not-so-surreptitious attempts to separate teacher's pay from any meaningful discussion of educational reform are ridiculous. Proper reform and improved educational outcomes will cost money, but while the education budget is already too big, one absolutely has to look where that money is going, and it is disproportionately flying into teacher's pockets, regardless of the job they are doing. So yes, my utmost concern is for the education system and the biggest aspect of that which worries me is the huge ring-fenced part of the budget being poured to teachers at the expense of other worthwhile expenditures. Don't try to separate two issues so inextricably linked, it's dishonesty of the highest standard.

Permabear

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Eliot Rosewater

donegalfella wrote: »

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That's an interesting proposal. Would a private school in this country be allowed some freedom from the stringent curriculum? I'm sure a lot of people have great ideas for reform, but they're all going to fall on deaf ears in government and trade union circles. It would be lovely if a group of educators could set up their own system designed primarily to benefit - shock horror - the children.

Also, how could you afford teachers? Given that you'd be in direct competition with the Dept. of Education, would you be forced to equal their pay rates?

whatawaster

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

Also, how could you afford teachers? Given that you'd be in direct competition with the Dept. of Education, would you be forced to equal their pay rates?

Aren't there thousands of teachers unemployed right now?

Focalbhach

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

I'm sure a lot of people have great ideas for reform, but they're all going to fall on deaf ears in government and trade union circles.

Funny you should mention that. Now's your chance!

Department of Education wrote:

9. HOW YOU CAN MAKE AN INPUT TO THIS PLAN

9.1 We need your suggestions
We need your suggestions and comments for improving this draft plan. Your suggestions will be examined carefully by the National Implementation Group that will be set up to oversee the development of the plan and its implementation.

9.2 Making your suggestions
We want to receive your comments on the draft plan by 31 January 2011. You can send your comments and suggestions:

by email to:
literacynumeracy@education.gov.ie

in writing to:
Secretary
National Literacy and Numeracy Implementation Group
Department of Education and SkillsMarlborough Street
Dublin 1

by leaving a comment on our dedicated comment line:
01-889 6768