Reconciling athiesm with godparenthood

Neil3030

Have any athiests on here ever been asked to be a godparent? Can you decline? I'm not sure I'd (a) want to be a part of another mind being indoctrinated or (b) be comfortable with myself, morally, making promises and assurances I knew I wouldn't keep.

magicbastarder

yep, i'm godfather to my niece. i was told to keep my mouth shut on the altar, and the priest didn't ask me anything so no need to lie.

death1234567

Yeah I'm a god parent. Didn't really bother me TBH its just a nonsense ceremony.

krudler

I am, like was said its a nonsense ceremony. Stand there and say you reject Satan and all his works (except his earlier, funnier stuff) then go get drunk. seems to be how most religious ceremonys in this country go.

Neil3030

krudler wrote: »

I am, like was said its a nonsense ceremony. Stand there and say you reject Satan and all his works (except his earlier, funnier stuff) then go get drunk. seems to be how most religious ceremonys in this country go.

Back when Satan had integrity, eh?

So they don't ask you any specific questions like: "do you vow to raise this child in God's vision" or any crap like that?

krudler

Neil3030 wrote: »

Back when Satan had integrity, eh?

So they don't ask you any specific questions like: "do you vow to raise this child in God's vision" or any crap like that?

I cant remember tbh, was years ago, the role of godparent isnt really taken seriously anymore, its one of thise things you "have" to do so the older members of the family dont have kittens at the thought the new baby wont be baptised, my sister did it to keep our parents happy and that was it.

magicbastarder

Neil3030 wrote: »

So they don't ask you any specific questions like: "do you vow to raise this child in God's vision" or any crap like that?

depends on the priest, i suspect. i just had to stand up there and look responsible.

I think it depends, pretty sure something was asked at the last ceremony I was at. And the godparents had to swear it.
Soooo no I would refuse as I'm not a christian

Viper_JB

magicbastarder wrote: »

yep, i'm godfather to my niece. i was told to keep my mouth shut on the altar, and the priest didn't ask me anything so no need to lie.

Pretty much same deal, with the odd mumble thrown in here and there. No real moral issue lying to an institution based on lies.

magicbastarder

bluewolf wrote: »

Soooo no I would refuse as I'm not a christian

would you refuse to be best man at a wedding ceremony for your best friend?

in the instance of being asked to be a godparent, i think i know which of the two options of refusing or accepting and glossing over the religious aspect is the lesser evil.

pretending to be a catholic for a couple of minutes is no worse than a man united fan wearing a liverpool jersey for a few minutes. it's not as if your soul is at stake.

krudler

magicbastarder wrote: »

would you refuse to be best man at a wedding ceremony for your best friend?

in the instance of being asked to be a godparent, i think i know which of the two options of refusing or accepting and glossing over the religious aspect is the lesser evil.

pretending to be a catholic for a couple of minutes is no worse than a man united fan wearing a liverpool jersey for a few minutes. it's not as if your soul is at stake.

Most people pretend to be catholics for their whole lives :pac:

"devout catholic I am!"
"agree that gays are evil, condoms spread aids and no sex before marriage do you?"
"errrr, except for that!"

Neil3030

magicbastarder wrote: »

would you refuse to be best man at a wedding ceremony for your best friend?

in the instance of being asked to be a godparent, i think i know which of the two options of refusing or accepting and glossing over the religious aspect is the lesser evil.

pretending to be a catholic for a couple of minutes is no worse than a man united fan wearing a liverpool jersey for a few minutes. it's not as if your soul is at stake.

Massive difference. For starters, wedding is simply two people deciding to share their assets and contractually enshrine their monogomy. A christening is indoctrinating a helpless child into an institution of witchcraft and rape.

Dades

Neil3030 wrote: »

A christening is indoctrinating a helpless child into an institution of witchcraft and rape.

And maybe the local school!

Neil3030

Dades wrote: »

And maybe the local school!

Outrageous but true.

krudler

Dades wrote: »

And maybe the local school!

Hogwarts?

Neil3030

krudler wrote: »

Hogwarts?

National schools give preference to catholics when they are over quota.

Pushtrak

I'm not. My brother asked me, and I said I'd do it, as long as my lack of religion wouldn't be a problem to them. I didn't want to say no. They had a talk about it, and decided to go with someone else. Am very happy they did. I didn't even want to go in to the church, stayed outside most of it, and the bits where I was in there, I knew being up there would have pissed me off.

If someone asks me now, I just would say no. It isn't a debatable topic, I just wouldn't feel comfortable taking part in it. I can block out a lot of crap, like crap music, fools in a pub and so on, but partaking in any way, shape or form in this indoctrination repulses me.

bnt

I am one, but it's more of an honourary uncle setup - no ceremony or anything like that. My friends are doing the "nominal Christian" thing: bible stories, the occasional church visit, but not much more than that. I was a little concerned that that was a ruse to get me to a church or make a promise to teach the children religion, but they're not Catholic and just aren't aware of the solemnity of the role in the Catholic Church.

magicbastarder

magicbastarder wrote: »

would you refuse to be best man at a wedding ceremony for your best friend?

in the instance of being asked to be a godparent, i think i know which of the two options of refusing or accepting and glossing over the religious aspect is the lesser evil.

pretending to be a catholic for a couple of minutes is no worse than a man united fan wearing a liverpool jersey for a few minutes. it's not as if your soul is at stake.

Being a bridesmaid /maid of honour would be about organising things and witnessing. Not solemnly making a vow to raise a child in a religion I don't share and would have no intention of doing :rolleyes:

ballsymchugh

magicbastarder wrote: »

would you refuse to be best man at a wedding ceremony for your best friend?

best man/ bridesmaid is all about being a witness to the signing of the register at the end of the wedding. there's no religious element to it.

edit: what she said!

Knasher

I think it depends on the role that the parents would expect me to take more than anything else. For instance if the parents just see it as a religious ceremony and don't care if an atheist takes part, then I would view it as an honor to be asked and have no problem with it. If the parent sees it as a commitment to guide the child's religious upbringing then clearly I would be unsuitable so I would have to refuse. Finally if the parents view it as a commitment to look after the child should anything happen to them then its a question if I would be willing to do that in such an eventuality.

In all cases whats important is the parents interpretation and not the ceremony itself.

robindch

krudler wrote: »

Hogwarts?

At least the magic there is credible

krudler

Knasher wrote: »

I think it depends on the role that the parents would expect me to take more than anything else. For instance if the parents just see it as a religious ceremony and don't care if an atheist takes part, then I would view it as an honor to be asked and have no problem with it. If the parent sees it as a commitment to guide the child's religious upbringing then clearly I would be unsuitable so I would have to refuse. Finally if the parents view it as a commitment to look after the child should anything happen to them then its a question if I would be willing to do that in such an eventuality.

In all cases whats important is the parents interpretation and not the ceremony itself.

Thats basically what i asked my sister about the religous side, her repsonse was "what? no just make sure you get him something good for his birthdays if you're his godfather" :pac:

Choochtown

I did it over 18 years ago. My beautiful goddaughter celebrates her 19th birthday in a few months and I think I've done a great job guiding her spiritually.



She's a 100% confirmed atheist!

strobe

I wouldn't do it. I'd make it clear that I was honoured to be asked and that if they wanted me to be someone to look out for the kid throughout it's life and/or to look after the child should it be orphaned I would do my utmost to do that but I wouldn't stand in a Catholic church and be part of the baptism ritual.

I don't think I know anyone close enough to me that would ask me to take on that responsibility that would have any problem whatsoever with that response. If they did then I would probably be the wrong person to ask in the first place and they should approach someone else in anyway.

WeeBushy

I'm a god parent, and I don't have any problem with it. If they had asked me to take an interest in his religious upbringing I would have, but in our family anyway the role of the god parent is basically be that cool older person who buys you presents and takes an extra interest in your life.

I was in South Africa at the time of the christening as well so didn't have to take part in the whole ceremony, my dad stood in for me, so really it worked out perfectly.

I love it as well, it was quite an honour to be asked to take an interest in his life and generally be there for him. Its not considered a religious role in our family so I really like the idea.

My brother is also the god father to the other child so now we get to compete them against eachother which will be fun

ColmDawson

strobe wrote: »

I wouldn't do it. I'd make it clear that I was honoured to be asked and that if they wanted me to be someone to look out for the kid throughout it's life and/or to look after the child should it be orphaned I would do my utmost to do that but I wouldn't stand in a Catholic church and be part of the baptism ritual.

I don't think I know anyone close enough to me that would ask me to take on that responsibility that would have any problem whatsoever with that response. If they did then I would probably be the wrong person to ask in the first place and they should approach someone else in anyway.

This.

magicbastarder

bluewolf wrote: »

Being a bridesmaid /maid of honour would be about organising things and witnessing. Not solemnly making a vow to raise a child in a religion I don't share and would have no intention of doing :rolleyes:

i did not make any vows (may have been unusual at the baptism i was at) and the parents were under no illusions that i would not have anything to do with a religious upbringing. i'm not talking about what the church expects from the ceremony, i'm talking about the intentions and good will of the parents.

ShooterSF

I wouldn't do it. Not only have I issues with the religious thing, I just plain don't like kids and it would be cruel to the child to have a special relative/family friend that probably doesn't like them...

philologos

magicbastarder wrote: »

yep, i'm godfather to my niece. i was told to keep my mouth shut on the altar, and the priest didn't ask me anything so no need to lie.

How did you manage this?

Don't they not ask if you believe in Christ, and reject the Devil and his works and so on? Or is this just a CofI thing?

magicbastarder

to be honest, i dunno. maybe the priest was in a rush. the best part of the ceremony for me was the other kid being baptised was about 12 and had his hair spiked for the occasion - the priest poured the water on his head, and then put his hand on it as part of the blessing. and had to get a towel to wipe the wet hair gel off his hand.

stevoslice

I was godfather for my beautiful little niece and i was absolutely delighted to do it.

i had a chat with my sister beforehand and basically she said if i wanted my niece to learn to make her own opinions on religion, and not take for granted someone else's, wouldn't it be better if i was her godfather than not.

no argument from me as i was never gonna say no anyway, but a perfectly sound bit of advice from my sister!

iBumblebeetuna

Jakkass wrote: »

Don't they not ask if you believe in Christ, and reject the Devil and his works and so on? Or is this just a CofI thing?

At any christening I've been to, this is how it played out.

seamus

bnt wrote: »

I am one, but it's more of an honourary uncle setup - no ceremony or anything like that. My friends are doing the "nominal Christian" thing: bible stories, the occasional church visit, but not much more than that. I was a little concerned that that was a ruse to get me to a church or make a promise to teach the children religion, but they're not Catholic and just aren't aware of the solemnity of the role in the Catholic Church.

+1 pretty much the same for me. Though of course, I am one the child's uncles, but it's more of a "favoured uncle" position.

My brother is a staunch atheist, for want of a better word. He's married to an á la carte Catholic from a small West Ireland country town who's very serious about going through the motions to keep her family happy but ultimately isn't Catholic by the proper sense of the word. Their marriage took a lot of compromise, including him paying lip service for the sake of a church wedding (which was big thing for him). The christening of their child likewise was a major sticking point, he had refused point blank to attend one if it was to be held.
He didn't necessarily have a major problem with the ceremony occuring (since it's meaningless to him) but he refused to stand up make false vows to his daughter about how she would be raised.

Eventually they found a very nice priest in Glendalough who understood their situation and he agreed to a christian baptism (as opposed to a specifically Catholic one). The priest talked more about the wonderment of life and how happy we should be to be here and how we should live it to the full - sentiments most people will agree with regardless of belief - and played the religious aspect down quite a bit.
Neither the parents nor the godparents (me being one) were asked to affirm anything to do with Satan or guiding the child in the catholic faith or any of that, and they spoke their own "vows" towards the child.
It's that latter part which my brother had the most problem with; the actual baptism is just dipping the child's head in some water, so he was very happy with the compromise and being able to affirm his own point of view.

magicbastarder wrote: »

would you refuse to be best man at a wedding ceremony for your best friend?

Said athiest brother was my best man, it makes no difference at a church wedding. Refused eucharist and all, there was no problem.

Jakkass wrote: »

Don't they not ask if you believe in Christ, and reject the Devil and his works and so on? Or is this just a CofI thing?

As I mention above, I don't think it's strictly necessary for a general christian baptism, it's sect-dependant.

magicbastarder

magicbastarder wrote: »

i did not make any vows (may have been unusual at the baptism i was at) and the parents were under no illusions that i would not have anything to do with a religious upbringing. i'm not talking about what the church expects from the ceremony, i'm talking about the intentions and good will of the parents.

Why not, it's their church. Going in and ignoring them and not caring what they think and making vows you don't intend to keep is very disrespectful no??

Jakkass wrote: »

How did you manage this?

Don't they not ask if you believe in Christ, and reject the Devil and his works and so on? Or is this just a CofI thing?

They do it in the catholic one too, I remember it clearly from the last one I was at. Priest was lovely and talked about welcoming them into the community and so on. But he did get the godparents very involved.

magicbastarder

bluewolf wrote: »

Why not, it's their church. Going in and ignoring them and not caring what they think and making vows you don't intend to keep is very disrespectful no??

as i said, i didn't make any vows. i understand this may not be normal.

magicbastarder

anyway, it was made clear to me by my brother that as far as he was concerned, i should be happy to ignore the religious aspect, and telling him to piss off would have been a bigger wrong than pretending to the church that i believed in the background to the ceremony.

Well, we all do things differently

housetypeb

I had my 2 children baptised this year as my daughter wanted to do her communion and i figured i might as well get my son baptised as well since he wants to do it next year.
It was the childrens choice to be baptised, as much as children can be said to understand the choices they make, and to make them happy i agreed to it.
As an atheist i had no problem making some promises to a god i dont believe in.And i dont think it's disrespectful at all as the priest was quite happy to take my money for his half hours work,cash-just like any tradesman.
Even though he knew i was an atheist because i had told him that when he had attended the funeral of my wife last year.
three of the four godparents are also atheist by the way.:)

philologos

magicbastarder wrote: »

anyway, it was made clear to me by my brother that as far as he was concerned, i should be happy to ignore the religious aspect, and telling him to piss off would have been a bigger wrong than pretending to the church that i believed in the background to the ceremony.

Which is pretty much the whole intention behind godparent. Nominalism is a strange and curious phenomenon.

seamus wrote: »

As I mention above, I don't think it's strictly necessary for a general christian baptism, it's sect-dependant.

Having been to my friends adult baptism in a Pentecostal type arrangement a few years ago I've began to think twice about infant baptism to be honest with you.

So yes it is certainly denomination dependent.

kylith

Both myself and my equally athiest brother are godparents to my niece. The parents know that we're athiests and still asked us. I think the whole baptism was just to shut up the grandparents anyway. The brother whose child it is would have gotten a great kick out of annoying the inlaws by having athiests as godparents, it certainly annoyed my mum.

I have no problem with being a godparent and lying to an entity I don't believe exists. Hells, I'll stand for a child at any naming ceremony I'm asked to, as long as it doesn't involve chopping any bits off, be it Christian, Muslim, Pagan, or Pentecostal Blue-Arseist. As far as I see it it's just asking me to keep an extra eye on the kid and to be there for the things they don't want to talk to their parents about.

Zamboni

Asked twice.
Refused twice.
As I understand godparent its (at least) partially undertaking responsibliity for the spiritual upbringing of a child in Christianty should the parents not be able to do so.
It would be dishonest for me to commit to something which I would not do.
Nice to be asked though

apoch632

magicbastarder wrote: »

pretending to be a catholic for a couple of minutes is no worse than a man united fan wearing a liverpool jersey for a few minutes. it's not as if your soul is at stake.

:eek:

This is analogy that I used that to get my sister to understand what I meant when I said I couldn't stand there and do the ceremony.

I didn't refuse though I was ruling myself out before I was asked. Some people say its lying to a non-existant entity. That may be true but I also don't want any relationship I have with the child to start out on what is essentially a lie

strobe

Jakkass wrote: »

Having been to my friends adult baptism in a Pentecostal type arrangement a few years ago I've began to think twice about infant baptism to be honest with you.

In what way? Do you mind if I ask what conclusions, if any you reached?

bmarley

If the child's parents and yourself believe catholicism is built on hypocrisy, i'm sure it wouldn't do any harm...if you do agree, you may be expected to partake in other cermonies as the child gets older...communion, confirmation....could end up being an expensive, life-long commitment

MrPudding

Jakkass wrote: »

Which is pretty much the whole intention behind godparent. Nominalism is a strange and curious phenomenon.

I think that for most people now, most people meaning "nominal" catholics or christians, being a godparent simply means a close relationship.

For the sake of family I had to get three of my children baptised, I have thus far managed to save the forth from this stupid and pointless ritual. I took the choosing of the godparents very seriously. Of the six godparents chosen only one of them is religious in any way. The other five* are either a) out and out atheists or b) would be out and out atheist if they ever took the time to think about what they actually believed.

In all three ceremonies the godparents, my partner and I all had to reject satan and all his works etc. The only qualms I had about the whole thing was that I felt slightly embarrassed that someone might actually think I believed in the crap the priest was spouting.

MrP





*Apart from my sister who is "spiritual." Yes, I am embarrassed.

philologos

strobe wrote: »

In what way? Do you mind if I ask what conclusions, if any you reached?

I think it is better that people are encouraged to make the decision to be baptised for themselves when they are older. It's much better this way.

Tim Robbins

Jakkass wrote: »

I think it is better that people are encouraged to make the decision to be baptised for themselves when they are older. It's much better this way.

What's the Church of Ireland take on this, these days? And what would you suggest yourself for baptism?

philologos

Tim Robbins wrote: »

What's the Church of Ireland take on this, these days? And what would you suggest yourself for baptism?

I mainly still attend CofI, but I guess my view would be quite unorthodox as the vast majority of people being baptised are still infants. Although, while in the UK last summer I attended an adult baptism of new believers in an evangelical Anglican church with a baptismal pool. So as far I can see there isn't really any authoritative view in worldwide Anglicanism as to the age that baptism is done at.

As I've said already, I personally think there is something significant about being baptised older. It also allows for those being baptised to articulate fully as to why they are being baptised.

strobe

Jakkass wrote: »

I mainly still attend CofI, but I guess my view would be quite unorthodox as the vast majority of people being baptised are still infants. Although, while in the UK last summer I attended an adult baptism of new believers in an evangelical Anglican church with a baptismal pool. So as far I can see there isn't really any authoritative view in worldwide Anglicanism as to the age that baptism is done at.

As I've said already, I personally think there is something significant about being baptised older. It also allows for those being baptised to articulate fully as to why they are being baptised.

Just on this. In CofI teaching is baptism a requirement of being saved when you die?

philologos

strobe wrote: »

Just on this. In CofI teaching is baptism a requirement of being saved when you die?

Teaching is a difficult word to use because in Anglicanism it is a largely democratic arrangement. Select Vestry in each individual church, Diocesan Synods for each diocese, General Synod for each province (CofI, CofE, Anglican Church of Australia, Episcopal Church of Scotland, Episcopal Church of the USA, Anglican Church of Canada, and so on around the world), and then there is the Lambeth Conference which meets every 8 years. Episcopal Church of USA for example holds a liberal view to same-sex marriages and pro-choice views of abortion. Other areas of the Anglican Communion disagree with both, and some are in the middle.

One of the major statements of Anglican teaching is the Articles of Religion which is an English Reformation document written by Thomas Cranmer in 16th century. Not all people in the CofI would agree with it but it does say the following about baptism.

27. Of Baptism.
Baptism is not only a sign of profession, and mark of difference, whereby Christian men are discerned from
others that be not christened, but it is also a sign of Regeneration or New-Birth, whereby, as by an instrument,
they that receive Baptism rightly are grafted into the Church; the promises of the forgiveness of sin, and of our
adoption to be the sons of God by the Holy Ghost, are visibly signed and sealed, Faith is confirmed, and Grace
increased by virtue of prayer unto God.
The Baptism of young Children is in any wise to be retained in the Church, as most agreeable with the
institution of Christ.

Note Cranmer says that infant baptism is most agreeable with the institution of Christ. Not entirely sure I agree with him 100% here. Pretty much what I'd say is that people should be baptised, but they should be baptised while assuring that they hold with conviction that Jesus is Lord. If one is baptised but yet doesn't believe in God, this is not a valid baptism. Baptism is an outward physical sign of an inward spiritual motion as I would see it.

As for it being strictly compulsory, I'm not sure. The robber on Jesus' side on the cross believed and yet was told that he would be in paradise without being baptised. John the Baptist says of Jesus that although he baptised by water, Jesus would baptise with the Spirit which I guess is what I think about the outward physical sign it's really accounting for the spiritual motion.